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Trebuchet King
Jul 5, 2005

This post...

...is a
WORK OF FICTION!!



I was more referring to

Sandwich Anarchist posted:

You guys aren't wrong, people should be paid for their stages. But right now, they aren't, and I'm not going to change that.

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Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Stuntman
Feb 6, 2010

by Lowtax


Sandwich Anarchist posted:

You guys aren't wrong, people should be paid for their stages. But right now, they aren't, and I'm not going to change that. Cooks are already underpaid in general because customers REFUSE to pay realistic prices for food, and the cost has to come from somewhere, and that ends up being labor. There is a complex set of problems that leads to the current industry environment, and it sucks.
Your justification for profiting off free labor is that everyone else does it?

Errant Gin Monks
Oct 2, 2009

"Yeah..."
- Marshawn Lynch


Sandwich Anarchist posted:

Just because you work in a nightmare shithole doesn't mean we all run our operations like that.

I don't know how to break it to you but I work in the IT field again and make 6 figures at a major car manufacturer.

My job is definitely not at a poo poo hole.

That being said I always compensated my cooks and my servers above minimum wage.

Malachite_Dragon
Mar 31, 2010

Weaving Merry Christmas Magic


Fallen Rib

But not everyone does it, guys

Hyperlynx
Sep 13, 2015



Hell is other people.

iospace
Apr 20, 2020




Fun Shoe

Hyperlynx posted:

Hell is lovely customers.

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004

Delicious and Nutritious



Fun Shoe

NinjaDebugger posted:

These quotes should probably be added consecutively to the OP, I swear.

Done. That needed to be here.

People should have the occasional reminder that it is never safe to assume potential employers are going to comply with the law when literally dozens of dollars are on the line, much less real money.

Errant Gin Monks
Oct 2, 2009

"Yeah..."
- Marshawn Lynch


Liquid Communism posted:

Done. That needed to be here.

People should have the occasional reminder that it is never safe to assume potential employers are going to comply with the law when literally dozens of dollars are on the line, much less real money.

I actually laughed at the dozens of dollars comment.

Sandwich Anarchist
Sep 12, 2008

A poptart is a pizza.



"Ah BLOO BLOO BLOO BLOO"- This Thread 2017

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004

Delicious and Nutritious



Fun Shoe

Sandwich Anarchist posted:

"Ah BLOO BLOO BLOO BLOO"- This Thread 2017

I'm deeply sorry that you're too loving cheap to pay people who are doing work for you.

Seriously, it's not hard. If someone is doing work that is providing a value to your business, you pay them at least the local minimum wage. You are getting rear end-damaged over paying what, 6 hours @ 7.25, so $43.50 to find out if you think someone's going to work out or not. Is that the message you really want to send to your prospective employees, that their time has literally no value to you?

gently caress off with that poo poo. Unpaid stages as a requirement for employment need to be up there with managers dipping into the tip pool and paychecks showing up late as reasons to bail.

Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at Jul 31, 2017 around 02:37

Manuel Calavera
Nov 1, 2008

Hey waiter, what's this metatarsal doing in my soup?



Sandwich Anarchist posted:

"Ah BLOO BLOO BLOO BLOO"- This Thread 2017


Explain.

poop dood
May 31, 2011

$#$%^&@@*!!!


Think about it with regard to literally any other restaurant position. Would you ask a bartender to work without pay for a night? Absolutely loving not! I value my labor and would flatly turn down any potential employer that asked me to work for them for free.

Work deserves pay. End of story. Whether they're a new employee, potential new employee, whatever, paying them for their time and effort tells them that you value their work. It's also the bare loving minimum ethically speaking, and tells your newbies that you're a decent human being. Why is this something that we don't all agree on? What monster or idiot thinks they can attract new hires by telling them from the start that they aren't respected or valued?

Hyperlynx
Sep 13, 2015



Sandwich Anarchist posted:

"Ah BLOO BLOO BLOO BLOO"- This Thread 2017

No, dude. Your behaviour actually is objectionable. It's not people crying over nothing. Actually listen, and take the responses seriously.

Trebuchet King
Jul 5, 2005

This post...

...is a
WORK OF FICTION!!



more like "Ah i'm too lazy to try and make a positive impact on the world around me and all the people calling me out on it are crybabies BLOO BLOO"


edit: https://twitter.com/dril/status/134787490526658561

Trebuchet King fucked around with this message at Jul 31, 2017 around 03:07

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004

Delicious and Nutritious



Fun Shoe

poop dood posted:

Think about it with regard to literally any other restaurant position. Would you ask a bartender to work without pay for a night? Absolutely loving not! I value my labor and would flatly turn down any potential employer that asked me to work for them for free.

Work deserves pay. End of story. Whether they're a new employee, potential new employee, whatever, paying them for their time and effort tells them that you value their work. It's also the bare loving minimum ethically speaking, and tells your newbies that you're a decent human being. Why is this something that we don't all agree on? What monster or idiot thinks they can attract new hires by telling them from the start that they aren't respected or valued?

Deserves to, and is in fact required by law to be paid under the FLSA. The only thing that protects the industry as a whole is that it's not worth the cost to lawyer up over it for individuals, especially on a cook's pay. However, the law allows class action, to include legal fees and liquidated damages.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012


Sandwich Anarchist posted:

"Ah BLOO BLOO BLOO BLOO"- This Thread 2017

http://www.openculture.com/2015/11/...s-get-paid.html

You pay the writer, you pay the artist, you pay the intern, you pay the chef, you pay the temp, you pay for work unless there is literally no profit or money being made by anyone.

Time for the fine dining world to move beyond the archaic fashions that defined it a century ago. If the argument is that Noma can't exist without an army of skilled unpaid workers then let it die. Let them all die and nothing of worth is lost.

That's not even getting into how many ways they could exploit the system to keep staging around. Team up with some for profit university to classify it as "work experience" and pay them $400 for 2 months of work, coincidently the same amount as the cost of a semester credit.

pentyne fucked around with this message at Jul 31, 2017 around 03:19

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004

Delicious and Nutritious



Fun Shoe

Just for yucks, here's a pretty detailed description of staging at Noma.

Some highlights :

quote:

Find the number of the operation that you wish to visit, call it offer your services, sure they may insist you do a month or even more, but they need you, not the other way around remember that. They simply cannot function at their level without the use of the stagier. The restrictions on time are beneficial to both, they need to train less often, leaving their team to do their jobs properly with much less stress, and for yourself, you will see more, learn more, and gain more respect from the team than short termers like me.

This is a place that runs 20-25 unpaid stagiers for 14-16 hour days six days a week to manage all their prep work. Usual stages there are a month.

poop dood
May 31, 2011

$#$%^&@@*!!!


Jesus Christ that place of all places can afford to pay prep cooks! Unpaid labor is unethical labor! Let Noma die!

iospace
Apr 20, 2020




Fun Shoe

Alright, I can understand why someone would not want to have to deal with all the tax paperwork for a potential hire that may not last a day. That's a major headache for everyone involved.

But if you're going to do shady poo poo like not pay your employees to "try them out", why not do some different shady poo poo like, I don't know... pay them under the table?

Or are you that greedy and ethically bankrupt that that's out of the question.

Shooting Blanks
Jun 6, 2007

Real bullets mess up how cool this thing looks.

-Blade


iospace posted:

Alright, I can understand why someone would not want to have to deal with all the tax paperwork for a potential hire that may not last a day. That's a major headache for everyone involved.

But if you're going to do shady poo poo like not pay your employees to "try them out", why not do some different shady poo poo like, I don't know... pay them under the table?

Or are you that greedy and ethically bankrupt that that's out of the question.

This I'm perfectly OK with. It opens up the restaurant to liability should the person hurt themselves, but at least they're getting paid.

Sandwich Anarchist
Sep 12, 2008

A poptart is a pizza.



Yeah the real problem is single shift unpaid stages, not the 1 year unpaid corporate internships, or the multiyear indentured servitude perpetrated by Disney and others.

Also, there is a difference between "chef" and "owner". One controls what we spend money on. The other keeps the gears turning.

If it makes you feel like GOOD PEOPLE when you berate and poo poo on some random individual chef for following the precedent set by the industry, cool, I'm happy for you. While you jerk yourself off, I'll be cooking food.

iospace
Apr 20, 2020




Fun Shoe

Sandwich Anarchist posted:

Yeah the real problem is single shift unpaid stages, not the 1 year unpaid corporate internships, or the multiyear indentured servitude perpetrated by Disney and others.

Also, there is a difference between "chef" and "owner". One controls what we spend money on. The other keeps the gears turning.

If it makes you feel like GOOD PEOPLE when you berate and poo poo on some random individual chef for following the precedent set by the industry, cool, I'm happy for you. While you jerk yourself off, I'll be cooking food.

"Everyone's doing it, so it's cool!"

Sandwich Anarchist
Sep 12, 2008

A poptart is a pizza.



iospace posted:

"Everyone's doing it, so it's cool!"

Ah BLOO BLOO BLOO BLOO

iospace
Apr 20, 2020




Fun Shoe

Sandwich Anarchist posted:

Ah BLOO BLOO BLOO BLOO

Use your words sweetheart as to why I'm wrong.

Errant Gin Monks
Oct 2, 2009

"Yeah..."
- Marshawn Lynch


Sandwich Anarchist posted:

Yeah the real problem is single shift unpaid stages, not the 1 year unpaid corporate internships, or the multiyear indentured servitude perpetrated by Disney and others.

Also, there is a difference between "chef" and "owner". One controls what we spend money on. The other keeps the gears turning.

If it makes you feel like GOOD PEOPLE when you berate and poo poo on some random individual chef for following the precedent set by the industry, cool, I'm happy for you. While you jerk yourself off, I'll be cooking food.

The precedent aet by the industry sucks and it's the industry perpetuating it.

Change can only be made from the inside. A good example is the places that are removing tips, paying everyone fairly and raising prices. its working too

Trebuchet King
Jul 5, 2005

This post...

...is a
WORK OF FICTION!!



Errant Gin Monks posted:

The precedent aet by the industry sucks and it's the industry perpetuating it.

Change can only be made from the inside. A good example is the places that are removing tips, paying everyone fairly and raising prices. its working too

pretty much this

waiting around for someone else to start making changes is a great way to make sure changes never happen.

Psychobabble
Jan 17, 2006


It's still early, kill the thread and let a new one rise from the ashes. If someone doesn't want to do an unpaid trial they don't have to. If someone wants to offer their time in exchange for knowledge and experience they would otherwise not have the access to, let them. If you're asking someone to come in and work the night in dish just pay them.

Hyperlynx
Sep 13, 2015



Sandwich Anarchist posted:

Ah BLOO BLOO BLOO BLOO

Holy gently caress, man, you're the one getting salty, saying you're being picked on unfairly, and you accuse everyone else of being crybabies?

You're in the wrong. Suck it up, process the new knowledge, and become a better and wiser person. Don't keep deflecting it with ad hominem attacks.

Malachite_Dragon
Mar 31, 2010

Weaving Merry Christmas Magic


Fallen Rib

"Everyone else is doing it, so clearly I'm in the right! STOP BEING MEAN TO MEEEE "

Republicans
Oct 14, 2003

- More money for us

- Fuck you


Found a living ladybug in a head of iceberg today.

Errant Gin Monks
Oct 2, 2009

"Yeah..."
- Marshawn Lynch


Oh and let me be the first to point out my restaurant was a failure I lost a bunch of money and I closed it.

So there is that.

But God drat did I love every second of it.

Oldsrocket_27
Apr 28, 2009


Sandwich Anarchist posted:

Yeah the real problem is single shift unpaid stages, not the 1 year unpaid corporate internships, or the multiyear indentured servitude perpetrated by Disney and others.

Also, there is a difference between "chef" and "owner". One controls what we spend money on. The other keeps the gears turning.

If it makes you feel like GOOD PEOPLE when you berate and poo poo on some random individual chef for following the precedent set by the industry, cool, I'm happy for you. While you jerk yourself off, I'll be cooking food.

If you're as lazy physically as you are intellectually, you aren't a chef, you're a fry cook with someone else's checkbook. You can cry all you want about how we're being mean to you because we desire that people in a position to do the right thing to actually do it, but at the end of the day, you're the hack who's jerking off. The real entitlement is someone with a steady paycheck complaining that people who don't should be able to afford to work for free.

NinjaDebugger
Apr 22, 2008


Sandwich Anarchist posted:

Yeah the real problem is single shift unpaid stages, not the 1 year unpaid corporate internships, or the multiyear indentured servitude perpetrated by Disney and others.

Also, there is a difference between "chef" and "owner". One controls what we spend money on. The other keeps the gears turning.

If it makes you feel like GOOD PEOPLE when you berate and poo poo on some random individual chef for following the precedent set by the industry, cool, I'm happy for you. While you jerk yourself off, I'll be cooking food.

Maybe you're right, and cooks these days really are whiny entitled shits. After all, your elders said the same about you, and they were completely right.

Recoome
Nov 9, 2013

This Australia Day I would like to give thanks for a worldwide return to sanity, as demonstrated by President Trump, Brexit, Senators Hanson and Leyonhjelm, One Nation outpolling the Greens, and the the demodding of EM.

Not a good time to be a rabid leftist lol.


Sandwich Anarchist posted:

Yeah the real problem is single shift unpaid stages, not the 1 year unpaid corporate internships, or the multiyear indentured servitude perpetrated by Disney and others.

Also, there is a difference between "chef" and "owner". One controls what we spend money on. The other keeps the gears turning.

If it makes you feel like GOOD PEOPLE when you berate and poo poo on some random individual chef for following the precedent set by the industry, cool, I'm happy for you. While you jerk yourself off, I'll be cooking food.

Actually it seems you are losing an internet argument instead of cooking, hmmm?

Irving
Jun 21, 2003


TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:

maybe this has happened once or twice but no, that's not a thing in tech jobs. even straight out of school if you can't find a paid internship you're dumb as rocks

Yeah, you're getting ripped off, dude.

A Man and his dog
Oct 24, 2013

by R. Guyovich


Yo on the topic of "work out interviews" my second job tried to pull this bullshit with a dishwasher.

Yeah we wanna see if your rear end can handle the dish pit for 7 hours with no pay.

One, I'm pretty sure thats illegal as gently caress. Second, gently caress you for even thinking that's ok.

Jesus Christ people...

Willie Tomg
Feb 2, 2006

Do Randroids Dream of Objective Sheep?

Sandwich Anarchist posted:

Yeah the real problem is single shift unpaid stages, not the 1 year unpaid corporate internships, or the multiyear indentured servitude perpetrated by Disney and others.

It can be all of these things, actually

Trebuchet King
Jul 5, 2005

This post...

...is a
WORK OF FICTION!!



Oldsrocket_27 posted:

If you're as lazy physically as you are intellectually, you aren't a chef, you're a fry cook with someone else's checkbook. You can cry all you want about how we're being mean to you because we desire that people in a position to do the right thing to actually do it, but at the end of the day, you're the hack who's jerking off. The real entitlement is someone with a steady paycheck complaining that people who don't should be able to afford to work for free.



well said, your cockatoo would be proud of your savagery.

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OutsideAngel
May 4, 2008


So I started a new gig in a small pub kitchen, and while I like the place and the job more than the last, it's (a) cramped (b) greasy (c) poorly ventilated. And though this question isn't exactly food related, I'm sure plenty of folks have dealt with the issue:

What the gently caress do I do about terrible acne breakouts after every shift? I've tried creams and whatnot but 9 hours a day in a sweaty grease pit is just wrecking my skin. Anybody have experience dealing with this kind of thing?

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