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breaklaw posted:Intersectionality was created to try to reduce the infighting in activist circles caused by people trying to increase their status\importance by proving themselves more oppressed or less privileged than the others. It has no applicable use or even consistent definition outside the left-activist subculture. The issue wasn't people trying to prove themselves more oppressed, it was that some subgroups were forever being told that their issues had to be put aside until supposedly larger issues were resolved. To use a particularly salient example black women would hear from black (primarily male) organizations that their issues were less important than the cause of black rights, and from (primarily white) feminists that their issues were less important than the cause of gender equality. As it turns out, articulating how priviledge is structured across many different lines of class, race, gender, etc, is actually useful for analysis of a huge range of social phenomena. Sadly none of this can help you post better because it turns out being a lovely troll is actually an objective essential quality and not socially constructed.
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Aug 12, 2017 00:06
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Intersectionality is a reinvention of the concept of the individual.
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Aug 12, 2017 00:12
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the trump tutelage posted:Intersectionality is a reinvention of the concept of the individual. your posts are a reinvention of the need to lurk more 
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Aug 12, 2017 00:14
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rudatron posted:Arguing that idpol isn't defined or doesn't exist is a debate tactic by people who believe and express idpol, to obsfucate the historical particularity of their own beliefs - idpol is not synonymous with anti racist or progressive, even if it's advocates intentionally mask that distinction for their own benefit. It's referring to very recent and specific set of beliefs that have become in vogue, and imo at the expense of ideological rigor, consistency and humanistic universality. Also, how people were sincerely arguing that about the term "neo-liberal"
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Aug 12, 2017 00:15
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Intersectionality was created to understand the ways in which different identities are linked together. Being a black woman is not the set union or intersection of the identities that go along with being black and the identities that go along with being a woman. Since mixing together identities quickly creates wholly different identities, it is clear that we are much more unique than we expect and any language shaped by identities will necessarily carry some erasure along with it due to it being incomplete. I think Nagle would argue that intersectionality allows us to go from the base understanding that Simone de Beauvoir initially provided by showing that gender was nothing more than a constructed symbol, to the variegated world of tumblr identities that include a long list of fluid, nonbinary, otherkin, and other symbols. Admitting to intersectionality essentially puts you on an endless journey to find and document more and more identities that carry a lower net erasure of the individuals that share the identity.
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Aug 12, 2017 00:22
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Intersectionality is kind of important to get a complete understanding of any sort of social problem. The classic example is a poor black person, who is both less protected from racism because of their lack of money and less able to escape poverty because of racism (which is why you have to take both into account to fix either racism or poverty), but you can see really obvious examples on the micro level with people with multiple disabilities. For instance, if you have poor eyesight and a chronic skin disease, you're going to be less able to monitor and treat that disease because you can't see it. If you're deaf and have an anxiety disorder, then you're less likely to be able to handle the stress of being deaf. Society is an interconnected web - viewing the effects of individual bigotries in a vacuum is missing the point as hard as the economist who assumed perfectly spherical cows in that old joke.
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Aug 12, 2017 00:26
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Hodgepodge posted:Intersectionality was developed by activists to overcome identity-based divisions and priorities and articulate a common ground for solidarity. rudatron posted:idpol is not synonymous with anti racist or progressive, even if it's advocates intentionally mask that distinction for their own benefit. It's referring to very recent and specific set of beliefs that have become in vogue, and imo at the expense of ideological rigor, consistency and humanistic universality.
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Aug 12, 2017 00:27
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rudatron posted:Don't know if you realize it, but you basically just proved the point I made here: what i am saying is that your critique of idpol is a reflexive condemnation of ideas which emerged in order to coordinate leftist activism on the basis of how they play out on tumblr and twitter rather than either theoretical or historical understanding of the underlying ideas
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Aug 12, 2017 00:35
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Hodgepodge posted:what i am saying is that your critique of idpol is a reflexive condemnation of ideas which emerged in order to coordinate leftist activism on the basis of how they play out on tumblr and twitter rather than either theoretical or historical understanding of the underlying ideas but as always, rudatron's ideological rigor is unimpeachable
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Aug 12, 2017 00:36
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Al! posted:but as always, rudatron's ideological rigor is unimpeachable tbf attacking a c-spam poster for a lack of rigor is like attacking a fish for being too wet
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Aug 12, 2017 00:42
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Hodgepodge posted:tbf attacking a c-spam poster for a lack of rigor is like attacking a fish for being too wet actually rudatron is v. ideologically consistent and rigorous
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Aug 12, 2017 00:46
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I have a better understanding of the underlying ideas than you do.
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Aug 12, 2017 00:46
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rudatron posted:I have a better understanding of the underlying ideas than you do. i have a better understanding of the underlying ideas than you do- time two!
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Aug 12, 2017 00:49
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I want you both to play on the opposite sides of the yard until lunch is over. If I catch you fighting again I'm calling home.
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Aug 12, 2017 01:04
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Hodgepodge posted:what i am saying is that your critique of idpol is a reflexive condemnation of ideas which emerged in order to coordinate leftist activism on the basis of how they play out on tumblr and twitter rather than either theoretical or historical understanding of the underlying ideas No need to invalidate or even critique the underlying ideas themselves, the way those ideas are used (and abused) by leftist activists is the issue here, at least in the context of the book and all the "This is why Trump won" left-on-left criticism of the past 9 months.
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Aug 12, 2017 01:23
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breaklaw posted:No need to invalidate or even critique the underlying ideas themselves, the way those ideas are used (and abused) by leftist activists is the issue here, at least in the context of the book and all the "This is why Trump won" left-on-left criticism of the past 9 months. thank you rapermcraperson, professor of rape stuidies
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Aug 12, 2017 01:25
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breaklaw posted:No need to invalidate or even critique the underlying ideas themselves, the way those ideas are used (and abused) by leftist activists is the issue here, at least in the context of the book and all the "This is why Trump won" left-on-left criticism of the past 9 months. There's some rather effective pushback from the left using the underlying principles to illustrate how performative wokeness is being used to silence the people it claims to represent.
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Aug 12, 2017 02:09
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Hodgepodge posted:There's some rather effective pushback from the left using the underlying principles to illustrate how performative wokeness is being used to silence the people it claims to represent. And a lot of that takes the form of making the people who popularised this jargon in the first place play by their own rules. A big problem is also that 'poor' has completely fallen out of the intersectionality lexicon, resulting in both a lack of understanding of why things like universal health care and higher minimum wage would benefit minorities (I think we've literally seen 'Higher minimum wage would benefit too many white people' unironically on this very forum, flat out Republican style) and assumptions that all people with some 'privilege' are assumed to have power and agency to exploit minorities even when they can barely make ends meet. (and this is likely a big part of the young male hostility to 'idpol'; it's used seemingly exclusively as a bludgeon against them and their hobbies even when they're unemployed and living in their parents' basements) And then the wokes turned the same tactics on minorities calling for economic justice.
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Aug 12, 2017 03:52
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Montasque posted:I'm just a simple poster, but to me ID POLITICS has a fairly well defined meaning in today's cultural and political discourse. nah this isn't true. it'd be nice if it was, but it's not
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Aug 12, 2017 04:19
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I'm Mr. Identity Politics, How are you gentlemen doing today?
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Aug 12, 2017 09:19
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here's her follow up, basically saying the entire period described in her book is over and we're entering a new timeline for the alt right https://thebaffler.com/latest/goodbye-pepe
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Aug 16, 2017 18:05
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Karl Barks posted:here's her follow up, basically saying the entire period described in her book is over and we're entering a new timeline for the alt right "soooo, you might be wondering why my book about a bunch of sad little memeboys who aren't actually a threat to anyone, just in it for attention, and really just started calling themselves nazis because tumblr was mean to them, uses the term 'alt-right' to refer to them" "look i was talking about something TOTALLY different you guys"
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Aug 16, 2017 21:11
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Ze Pollack posted:"soooo, you might be wondering why my book about a bunch of sad little memeboys who aren't actually a threat to anyone, just in it for attention, and really just started calling themselves nazis because tumblr was mean to them, uses the term 'alt-right' to refer to them" hot take from someone that hasn't read the book
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Aug 16, 2017 21:12
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oh yeah i was looking for this thread yesterday. thesis kind of rings hollow now huh
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Aug 16, 2017 21:13
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Ze Pollack posted:"soooo, you might be wondering why my book about a bunch of sad little memeboys who aren't actually a threat to anyone, just in it for attention, and really just started calling themselves nazis because tumblr was mean to them, uses the term 'alt-right' to refer to them" this is literally the opposite of the conclusion of the book
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Aug 16, 2017 21:13
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Ze Pollack posted:"soooo, you might be wondering why my book about a bunch of sad little memeboys who aren't actually a threat to anyone, just in it for attention, and really just started calling themselves nazis because tumblr was mean to them, uses the term 'alt-right' to refer to them" didn't read the book
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Aug 16, 2017 21:15
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Zikan posted:this is literally the opposite of the conclusion of the book take it up with Nagle, who is suddenly very, very concerned that people are going to think the poor young men who we failed to initiate into the tribe she described are the alt-right, and not the people who killed a protester on saturday. nope, from this point on don't try to use anything she wrote to predict what comes next, everything is TOTALLY different now. kinda torn between wishing I could see the version of the book that actually went through an editing process so she could have gotten more to grips with the ideas she was getting at, and being grateful that it came out when it did. cuz if it had been edited, at all, it would be releasing right now. lol
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Aug 16, 2017 21:17
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going to guess pollack both didn't read the book, and also didn't read the article i posted
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Aug 16, 2017 21:24
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Karl Barks posted:going to guess pollack both didn't read the book, and also didn't read the article i posted have you never read one of those awful, rambling apologies so popular among the Extremely Online, Karl? follows the script pretty closely. the second half's all boring "look, I'm still fundamentally a good person with the right opinions", but hoo boy, that first bit. "No, seriously, you guys, the people who I was writing about? They had no idea this was coming! They're shocked! They're appalled! They don't know what to do! Clearly, whatever comes next is completely unrelated to the universe I described!" reminds me, I should look up if that Laurie Penny lady ever wrote anything about Milo post pedophilagate.
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Aug 16, 2017 21:51
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Ze Pollack posted:have you never read one of those awful, rambling apologies so popular among the Extremely Online, Karl? she never "predicted" what the alt right would do tho, her book just describes who they are and what they stand for. and it's only one chapter of the book. you're acting like she defends them? which is not the case at all. are you tacitly admitting you haven't read the book?
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Aug 16, 2017 21:54
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It's alright, most people don't read stuff before they comment on it anyway. Also in that article Nagle singles out the one particular chapter in her book as outdated. It might be a little too soon to call it on the alt-right though. But we'll see.
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Aug 16, 2017 21:59
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Ze Pollack posted:take it up with Nagle, who is suddenly very, very concerned that people are going to think the poor young men who we failed to initiate into the tribe she described are the alt-right, and not the people who killed a protester on saturday. What? No one is making the distinction between the white supremacists and the alt-right because there is no distinction. Finish the quote the alt-right are burning down the village.
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Aug 17, 2017 01:31
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The Time Dissolver posted:I guess what I wanted to say about this book is that: I also recall with dread the "vampire's castle" phase of online leftism, and I agree that the identity-palooza of Tumblr etc. isn't a recipe for bringing revolution to the masses (in a way, it's its own very selective formulation of "it is forbidden to forbid"), and I don't think Nagle is equivocating or pulling a South Park w/r/t the Tumblr left vs. the alt-right... but the sympathy for Jordan Peterson and mentioning non-binary people in the same breath as otherkin and ABDLs is really revealing and I mostly just want to tell this writer to get hosed. The vampire's castle, c'est moi, I guess. This debate is always a little weird to me, as a reformed Nazi whose conversion to a raging leftist was largely thanks to the "inquisitorial" nature of left-leaning spaces on the internet and in real life. I shudder to think about the person I would be today if it hadn't been made abundantly clear to me that I would never be accepted, under any conditions, unless I changed my ideology. However, that effect was only possible because the "vampire's castle" wasn't just present in the same spaces I was, but because it was dominant there -- I lucked out, basically, by spending most of my time on the internet on SA while LF was active and at the same time attending a small liberal arts college surrounded by academic-minded feminists. I guess the point here is that shaming and callouts work, but only if you actually represent a social majority (e: and one to which it is desirable to belong); you need other tactics to get to that point in the first place. Tuxedo Catfish has issued a correction as of 03:59 on Aug 17, 2017 |
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Aug 17, 2017 03:53
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:This debate is always a little weird to me, as a reformed Nazi whose conversion to a raging leftist was largely thanks to the "inquisitorial" nature of left-leaning spaces on the internet and in real life. I shudder to think about the person I would be today if it hadn't been made abundantly clear to me that I would never be accepted, under any conditions, unless I changed my ideology. I think I've lost track; what's meant by 'vampire's castle' again? I've been pretty good at grokking the lingo being rapidly invented to the rapid social madness of the internet but that one eluded me.
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Aug 17, 2017 07:47
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Inescapable Duck posted:I think I've lost track; what's meant by 'vampire's castle' again? I've been pretty good at grokking the lingo being rapidly invented to the rapid social madness of the internet but that one eluded me. https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/mark-fisher/exiting-vampire-castle
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Aug 17, 2017 09:03
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i think people are making a dramatic and hugely consequential mistake if they start overidentifying "identity politics" and then start rejecting the absolutely crucial things that we have learned from those politics. a lot of the posts i see in this thread are very troubling. i think the "vampire castle" article was seriously flawed and would strongly suggest that people read this really excellent rejoinder to it. While some of the really toxic things on social media (e.g. woke gator tweet) are still going on, and some liberals have cynically adopted idpol language to defend themselves against the left, the "vampire castle" thesis is just really wrong.
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Aug 17, 2017 13:02
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Which important lessons? That identities are essential? That there are no bad tactics, only bad targets?
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Aug 17, 2017 13:34
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Inescapable Duck posted:I think I've lost track; what's meant by 'vampire's castle' again? I've been pretty good at grokking the lingo being rapidly invented to the rapid social madness of the internet but that one eluded me. DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:i think the "vampire castle" article was seriously flawed and would strongly suggest that people read this really excellent rejoinder to it. While some of the really toxic things on social media (e.g. woke gator tweet) are still going on, and some liberals have cynically adopted idpol language to defend themselves against the left, the "vampire castle" thesis is just really wrong. Yeah if it wasn't clear, I use the term more than a little sarcastically.  I do think there's some truth to the idea that the alt-Right positioned themselves to be more attractive to people who thought of themselves as outsiders, while the Left (at least in popular discourse) tried to establish itself as a new form of orthodoxy and failed. I don't think it failed because those tactics can never work, though, it's just because the Left isn't actually the orthodoxy. (Although that's sort of just restating what I said last time.) At the same time the mere act of publicly calling yourself a socialist and both using the language and advancing the actual goals that go with that seems like the beginning of an antidote to that. 2010-era wokeness here and elsewhere must have included people who were socialists or otherwise economically left but it was secondary, at least rhetorically, to social justice and more personal ideas about self-improvement and self-education -- fine goals, even if they were a little myopic compared to the big picture. I mean, the first thing that prompted my political reawakening wasn't how miserable and unfair capitalism was, it was realizing that I was using "bitch" too casually with my friends and that was rude and wrong and I should fix that. But it's still what got me here. Tuxedo Catfish has issued a correction as of 13:50 on Aug 17, 2017 |
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Aug 17, 2017 13:46
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:i think people are making a dramatic and hugely consequential mistake if they start overidentifying "identity politics" and then start rejecting the absolutely crucial things that we have learned from those politics. a lot of the posts i see in this thread are very troubling. The 'AHH but by accusing these people of being vampires, are you not just making a witch-hunt of your own?' turnabout at the end, was the dumbest loving thing ever. The original claim is clearly about legitimacy. As a rejoinder, that particular argument is about on the same level as 'well you see, beating up fascists is also...fascism'.
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Aug 17, 2017 13:51
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Yeah if it wasn't clear, I use the term more than a little sarcastically. Yeah, the woke left (or centre, really) had pretty much declared themselves the winners of the culture war and couldn't understand why everyone wouldn't get in line outside their spaces as well as within them. The Trump victory pretty much completely broke that one way or another, to either start looking elsewhere for answers, tune out or retreat into their echo chambers and become broke-brained alt-centrists. Though we probably should have seen that comic when 'It's not my job to educate you' became an unironic slogan.
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Aug 17, 2017 14:13
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