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Inescapable Duck posted:Yeah, the woke left (or centre, really) had pretty much declared themselves the winners of the culture war and couldn't understand why everyone wouldn't get in line outside their spaces as well as within them. The Trump victory pretty much completely broke that one way or another, to either start looking elsewhere for answers, tune out or retreat into their echo chambers and become broke-brained alt-centrists. Though we probably should have seen that comic when 'It's not my job to educate you' became an unironic slogan. Crossposting from the Trump thread because I think this post is very relevant to the discussion here: Realtalk: I have been thinking for a long time that a possible solution forwards for the problem of "Southern Heritage" is to create a new identity around Southern heritage based around the best figures in the history of the South. In order to do this we would need a concerted effort from our entertainment industry to produce content that includes people like John Brown or Harriet Tubman. Basically instead of assholes like Robert E. Lee being the name people automatically think of when they think of that era we want names like Frederick Douglass or John Brown to ring just as loudly in the public consciousness. While racism and "Southern Heritage" certainly isn;t a problem that is contained to the physical boundaries of the Southern US I would still argue very strongly that what we need is a scene change in the cultural zeitgeist surrounding the topic. Give people something other than the worst aspects of the Southern history something to latch onto when they are creating their identity during their formative years. Right now a rural Southern white teenager only hears either about how people like Lee were a hero or how terrible his ancestors were. Why not offer them something else instead?
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Aug 17, 2017 17:00
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John Brown was a New Englander whose only connection to the south was killing southerners. He was also one of the greatest Americans of all time and a literal prophet.
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Aug 18, 2017 04:28
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Prester Jane posted:Crossposting from the Trump thread because I think this post is very relevant to the discussion here: I am not letting the SEC win the next 20 football championships to make up for the confederacy.
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Aug 18, 2017 07:10
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Prester Jane posted:Crossposting from the Trump thread because I think this post is very relevant to the discussion here: I have to agree with this. Recently I read David Williams "Bitterly Divided", a fantastic work on resistance by white and black Southerners to the Confederacy and one thing it drives home is that the Confederate government and its planter masters were ready and eager to brutalize and murder anyone of any race who dared question slavery or secession. One anecdote that stood out was a pastor in (I think) Arkansas who declared that he wouldn't take up arms for or against the Confederacy. Thugs kidnapped him and literally boiled him alive. Williams makes the case that the widespread resistance to the Confederacy was swept aside from the historical record post-war by Lost Causers looking to promote the myth that the southern population was loyal and united behind the CSA (and he also claims that some Northerners looking for a simple stereotype of "All Southerners are racist, Confederate-loving bastards" accidentally played into that to a much lesser extent) What I'm getting at is the fact that there was widespread resistance in the South to the Confederacy and that really needs to be more known. http://www.counterfire.org/articles/book-reviews/6395--david-williams-bitterly-divided-the-souths-inner-civil-war Nckdictator has issued a correction as of 08:07 on Aug 18, 2017 |
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Aug 18, 2017 08:02
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Prester Jane posted:Crossposting from the Trump thread because I think this post is very relevant to the discussion here: Also Mark Twain.
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Aug 18, 2017 08:30
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Nckdictator posted:I have to agree with this.
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Aug 18, 2017 08:39
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Also Mark Twain. Mark Twain is seriously my all time favorite author and one of the biggest reasons I broke out of the cult I was raised in. (When I read The Mysterious Stranger at age 11 it shook me to my core and resulted in some of my first serious doubts about what I had been taught.) I think a movie version of The private history of a campaign that failed would be rather timely in todays climate. (For those unfamiliar with A private history it is basically Mark Twain confessing to being in a militia during the Civil War that accomplished nothing except running around in a blind panic and accidentally murdering a man who happened to ride past them on horseback one night.)
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Aug 18, 2017 20:39
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People who were reading this thread or book may be interested in Nagel's latest Baffler article. It's about the Alt-Right, 60s counter-culture (as you'd expect based on KAN), plus manners and civilisation.quote:The incoherent tumult of the present moment’s culture wars masks what is, at bottom, a battle over what this shared system of manners will be. I think this point about negotiating the system of manners in society is an accurate and the book would probably have benefited from discussing that more.
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Sep 7, 2017 22:45
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The last month was ridiculously busy and I was travelling a lot but now that I'm settled in again I am going to continue updating the thread, so hopefully some interest remains. Obviously the book is going to read differently post-Cville but it'll be interesting to evaluate what Nagle get's right / wrong by comparing it to subsequent events.
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Sep 8, 2017 17:00
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Prester Jane posted:I think a movie version of The private history of a campaign that failed would be rather timely in todays climate. (For those unfamiliar with A private history it is basically Mark Twain confessing to being in a militia during the Civil War that accomplished nothing except running around in a blind panic and accidentally murdering a man who happened to ride past them on horseback one night.)
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Sep 8, 2017 17:36
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:I need to read that. quote:Out west there was a good deal of confusion in men's minds during the first months of the great trouble, a good deal of unsettledness, of leaning first this way then that, and then the other way. It was hard for us to get our bearings. I call to mind an example of this. I was piloting on the Mississippi when the news came that South Carolina had gone out of the Union on the 20th of December, 1860. My pilot mate was a New Yorker. He was strong for the Union; so was I. But he would not listen to me with any patience, my loyalty was smirched, to his eye, because my father had owned slaves. I said in palliation of this dark fact that I had heard my father say, some years before he died, that slavery was a great wrong and he would free the solitary Negro he then owned if he could think it right to give away the property of the family when he was so straitened in means. My mate retorted that a mere impulse was nothing, anyone could pretend to a good impulse, and went on decrying my Unionism and libelling my ancestry. A month later the secession atmosphere had considerably thickened on the Lower Mississippi and I became a rebel; so did he. We were together in New Orleans the 26th of January, when Louisiana went out of the Union. He did his fair share of the rebel shouting but was opposed to letting me do mine. He said I came of bad stock, of a father who had been willing to set slaves free. In the following summer he was piloting a Union gunboat and shouting for the Union again and I was in the Confederate army. I held his note for some borrowed money. He was one of the most upright men I ever knew but he repudiated that note without hesitation because I was a rebel and the son of a man who owned slaves. It's good
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Sep 10, 2017 00:56
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Stabbatical posted:People who were reading this thread or book may be interested in Nagel's latest Baffler article. It's about the Alt-Right, 60s counter-culture (as you'd expect based on KAN), plus manners and civilisation. It's hard to tell from an early standpoint exactly what part of the whole mess is most relevant in the long run. Though 'manners' is an interesting and possibly fitting point to focus on, especially since 'manners' has some VERY class-signifying implications. A lot of discourse went around about the great unwashed nerd masses; 'They don't know how to act, they don't know how to dress'. It's near 80s movie levels of 'slobs vs snobs' as a result, forgetting that generally people don't sympathise with the snobs. And what was the 2016 election but the king of the slobs vs the queen of the snobs? And now we're seeing the proud Dirtbag Left, Juggalos embraced as allies against fascist violence, and pundits and dynasties rapidly becoming irrelevant or punchlines. Progressive liberals turned out to be hopelessly exclusionary, blinded by supposedly inclusive language while rejecting anyone who suggests solutions the donors don't like, while the leftists' political language, rusty and tainted as it is, is the only thing even remotely adequate for salvaging the situation. The liberal elite is a liability, and perhaps always has been.
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Sep 10, 2017 08:27
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Inescapable Duck posted:Though we probably should have seen that comic when 'It's not my job to educate you' became an unironic slogan. It was always unironic. You must be much younger than me if you've never read it in an unironic context, because it was a favorite of feminist-rationalist-atheist communities in the late 2000s. And honestly? it was a good slogan. It worked on me. It was revolutionary at the time and it'd be wrong to say that it should have been toned down - gently caress that! it was radical and exactly the kind of kick in the rear end a lot of people (me included) needed Inescapable Duck posted:And what was the 2016 election but the king of the slobs vs the queen of the snobs? I've always seen Trump vs Clinton as Dad vs Mom, but then again the American dad is coded as a slob
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Sep 11, 2017 14:52
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hackbunny posted:It was always unironic. You must be much younger than me if you've never read it in an unironic context, because it was a favorite of feminist-rationalist-atheist communities in the late 2000s. And honestly? it was a good slogan. It worked on me. It was revolutionary at the time and it'd be wrong to say that it should have been toned down - gently caress that! it was radical and exactly the kind of kick in the rear end a lot of people (me included) needed Problem is, as mentioned before in the thread, that attitude works when and ONLY when those using it can exert meaningful social pressure and present their case as something worthy of expending effort to find out more about. Against people under no social obligation to listen or care and dealing with their own problems, it's worse than useless, especially because there's nothing resembling a shortage of misinformation and hate through any channel people may choose to try to educate themselves by.
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Sep 11, 2017 15:01
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Inescapable Duck posted:Problem is, as mentioned before in the thread, that attitude works when and ONLY when those using it can exert meaningful social pressure and present their case as something worthy of expending effort to find out more about. Against people under no social obligation to listen or care and dealing with their own problems, it's worse than useless, especially because there's nothing resembling a shortage of misinformation and hate through any channel people may choose to try to educate themselves by. Two things: first, note I'm talking about it in the past tense, what worked once won't work forever. Second, I don't think it's a matter of social pressure, but personal inclination too. If it was only social pressure, then empathy truly would be just "virtue signalling", and I know for a fact that it isn't. Not all people lowered in a toxic culture broth come out bigots
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Sep 12, 2017 11:02
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hackbunny posted:It was always unironic. You must be much younger than me if you've never read it in an unironic context, because it was a favorite of feminist-rationalist-atheist communities in the late 2000s. And honestly? it was a good slogan. It worked on me. It was revolutionary at the time and it'd be wrong to say that it should have been toned down - gently caress that! it was radical and exactly the kind of kick in the rear end a lot of people (me included) needed The phrase pissed me off because if you actually care about something you'll be happy to explain and teach and do whatever it takes to convert people to your cause and you'll do it over and over and over again because you care. Saying "it's not my job" is really saying "I want something but I don't want to actually have to work or try". Not to go full bootstraps or  but caring about something means being willing to put skin in the game, and that means all the gruntwork that doesn't get headlines or retweets. But if you deeply care, you'll do it.
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Sep 12, 2017 16:34
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I'm pretty sure 'it's not my job to educate you' became a thing due to the massive amounts of disingenuous concern troll shitposting that plagued any attempt at feminist oriented discussion, and not because feminists are feckless and lazy. e: evidence is literally every feminism thread this website has had with a basic reading list in the OP.
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Sep 12, 2017 16:55
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This is a stray thought that occurred to me while browsing other threads in this website but despite all the flack it received I think Nagle's insight about the feedback loop between 4chan and tumblr identifies one particular example of something that is almost universal to online communities now. You actually see the same kind of dynamic at play here in CSPAM threads like the SuckZone, where one of the primary topics of discussion is dissecting and mocking the latest tweetstorms or fundraising e-mails sent out by centrist Democrats. The same kind of dynamic happens in D&D and Ask Tell when it comes to libertarians, neoreactionaries, and of course back in the day Fury's, Juggalo and a thousand other weird subcommunities that got featured in Awful Links of the Day, etc. Chapo Traphouse also performs the same service in longform every time they feature a terrible conservative op ed or book in one of their reading series. A lot of people jumped on Nagle for supposedly implying that tumblr kids somehow caused Nazis to radicalized, and obviously on its face that is an absurd charge. But when you step back and think about how internet communities - especially insular or politically oriented ones - go about defining themselves then it becomes easier to understand Nagle's point. In the internet age communities define themselves and create solidarity by identifying rival communities and mocking them. Something Awful was an early pioneer in this regard but it's hardly unique or unusual.
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Sep 12, 2017 18:33
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The microcosm about this is the life cycle of GBS mock threads or many subreddits. First there's some content for people to chew on and lots of jokes and irony and it's all in fun but the longer it lasts the more people churn over the same thing over and over again until you get people doing wilder and wilder things to have something new to mock. These threads always turned out horrible because someone would inevitably actually show up at the hod dog man's hot dog restaurant or start calling for the unironic death of fat people or insane racist rants about india or whatever and they'd have to be gassed. But the resistance of people posting in those threads to close them down and end the cycle was incredible. So it goes with a lot of on-line places.
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Sep 12, 2017 21:10
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It's funny to me that 4chan is the birthplace of the altright given that 4chan itself is a good argument that internet forums need to be ruled by authoritarian rather than democracy
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Sep 12, 2017 21:44
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Helsing posted:This is a stray thought that occurred to me while browsing other threads in this website but despite all the flack it received I think Nagle's insight about the feedback loop between 4chan and tumblr identifies one particular example of something that is almost universal to online communities now. You actually see the same kind of dynamic at play here in CSPAM threads like the SuckZone, where one of the primary topics of discussion is dissecting and mocking the latest tweetstorms or fundraising e-mails sent out by centrist Democrats. The same kind of dynamic happens in D&D and Ask Tell when it comes to libertarians, neoreactionaries, and of course back in the day Fury's, Juggalo and a thousand other weird subcommunities that got featured in Awful Links of the Day, etc. Chapo Traphouse also performs the same service in longform every time they feature a terrible conservative op ed or book in one of their reading series. Dreylad posted:The microcosm about this is the life cycle of GBS mock threads or many subreddits. First there's some content for people to chew on and lots of jokes and irony and it's all in fun but the longer it lasts the more people churn over the same thing over and over again until you get people doing wilder and wilder things to have something new to mock. These threads always turned out horrible because someone would inevitably actually show up at the hod dog man's hot dog restaurant or start calling for the unironic death of fat people or insane racist rants about india or whatever and they'd have to be gassed. But the resistance of people posting in those threads to close them down and end the cycle was incredible. So it goes with a lot of on-line places. Actually, this reminds me of the old GBS Hellthreads where you'd get this awful mix of people just trying to mock the topics condemned to them, people trying to seriously discuss them, and the admins & mods at the time going back and forth on whether to allow this exist. Now that the manners stuff has been brought up, I can't stop framing all internet disputes like that as just a squabble over manners and customs about who's allowed to say what to whom online. It explains so much, especially if we remember that 90% of online insults, jokes, and even general discussions about others are 'slobs vs snobs' or 'smart people vs dumb morons' stuff where the joke tellers usually try to present the other party as the slobs and pretty much always as idiots. (I think the only exception to this jokes about rich liberals or UK upper-classes - they're always portrayed as excessively snobby and always dumb.) I bet you could go back all the way to Gamergate and any prior dumb online poo poo that may link into the rise of the Alt-Right with this in mind and suddenly be able to make sense of most of the actions, and maybe the stated concerns of all the parties involved (at least before the Alt-Right guys became out and out Nazis). The Internet makes you rude. 
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Sep 12, 2017 22:01
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StashAugustine posted:It's funny to me that 4chan is the birthplace of the altright given that 4chan itself is a good argument that internet forums need to be ruled by authoritarian rather than democracy 4chan's moderation is entirely undemocratic, and has been forever. /pol/ growing as a cancer was not popular.
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Sep 13, 2017 00:02
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Stabbatical posted:The Internet makes you rude. And thus no one's hated more than the people who march in and demand to control how people behave and speak, especially when those standards are completely ignored for their own communities. That may well tie right back into then election; the Democrats doubling down on superficial wokeness and abandoning solid platforms pretty much was them giving up the pretence of being anything but hollow sell-outs obsessed with decorum and procedure over any measurable gains. Having watched the nascent tumour from the start, channers and the like had come to believe that the 'left' had absolutely no place for them, other than as sycophantic servants and scapegoats. Idpol was concerned with everyone's problems but theirs, and only the right would even consider them worthy of dialogue. And when it came to liberal centrists, they were far more on the money than they really should have been. The bright side is that with the collapse of the centre and the Cold War fading into memory (and growing consciousness that the USA wasn't the 'good guy' and caused massive damage around the world for its own gain which basically created a century's worth of future enemies in the process) suddenly there's room to grow on the left again. The radicalised and career shills you're obviously not going to get very far with (the inherent insanity of attempting honest debate with career trolls who deliberately take the most abhorrent views than can find to get reactions should be self-evident) but the opportunity is there to cut off their recruits by offering a different way of doing things and solutions to their problems. (That is, crippling lack of opportunity, untreated mental health issues and social alienation)
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Sep 13, 2017 09:40
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Inescapable Duck posted:And thus no one's hated more than the people who march in and demand to control how people behave and speak, especially when those standards are completely ignored for their own communities. That may well tie right back into then election; the Democrats doubling down on superficial wokeness and abandoning solid platforms pretty much was them giving up the pretence of being anything but hollow sell-outs obsessed with decorum and procedure over any measurable gains. Given that America recently voted in a blatantly unqualified white-supremacist kleptocrat (who, let me remind you, spent most of the last president's term in office advancing a groundless conspiracy theory that said president was a secret Kenyan Muslim) in an election where race, not economic status, was the single biggest indicator of voting intention, I'd say that this may be rather too rosy an analysis - after all, it's not like poor black people broke for Trump, despite being the poster-folks for 'crippling lack of opportunity, untreated mental health issues and social alienation'. Economic reform depends on the electorate seeing all members of the economy as human, and on them being unwilling to gently caress themselves over so that those damned darkies will be hurt even more. The Cold War may be over, but America still has one boogeyman standing in the way of socialism - black single mothers, and the American public's unwillingness to endorse any program that would give them one red cent. Darth Walrus has issued a correction as of 11:32 on Sep 13, 2017 |
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Sep 13, 2017 11:30
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Indeed you have a point. Kinda ties in with the old adage; judge a society by how it treats its weakest, for that is how they'll treat everyone if they could. People will suffer the similar problems in similar circumstances, but it's evident their cultural context will cause them to react differently. You're looking at mostly young people who were insufficiently prepared for a society that has no room for them and fed lies about how to attain success, and reacted in the worst ways because that's the only way that gets attention. The key point is these people never liked the Republicans either; most of them having grown up with Bush as an embarrassing boob, Trump is different, basically, because at least he's honest about it. (kinda) Despite buying into the Republican narrative, and considering the nuclear family a dead dream, they detest them as politicians and people until one came along presenting himself as an outsider, the dark reflection of Sanders in a fair few ways. And even a lot of that started as cheering on the joke candidate as everything stayed ridiculous but steadily became less and less ironic. I think a key thing is, the way I see it, the channers were in a lot of cases, right for the wrong reasons. Right that liberals were spineless idiots who'd be undone by their own arrogance and corruption, wrong that it would be their professed ideals rather than their inability to live up to them. Right about the 2016 election, much to their surprise I'm sure, and wrong that it was providence and not a result of the worst of American politics let out without any filter. Right that America is racist as hell, wrong that America would join them in literal Nazi rallies. Right that the liberals would ignore or downplay them, wrong that centrist Democrats represent the entirety of their opposition. (and it should be clear but I'm talking about a very particular demographic of young hosed up people, not the American electorate as a whole. My drunken rants about those are in other threads) Optimism is worth it mostly because we need the motivation, and we saw the election was won by a gnat's dick and a Democrat who couldn't have done worse if they were actively trying to throw the election; there's massive room for improvement, this isn't some unstoppable juggernaut.
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Sep 13, 2017 12:35
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hackbunny posted:It was always unironic. You must be much younger than me if you've never read it in an unironic context, because it was a favorite of feminist-rationalist-atheist communities in the late 2000s. And honestly? it was a good slogan. It worked on me. It was revolutionary at the time and it'd be wrong to say that it should have been toned down - gently caress that! it was radical and exactly the kind of kick in the rear end a lot of people (me included) needed at first that post sounds like some baby boomer reminiscing about their time in the yippies when they flushed all the toilets in the pentagon at once or whatever dumb worthless self-aggrandizing poo poo they did, but that was merely a waste of time. The damage inflicted by what went on after Occupy folded remains clearly visible. "it's not my job to educate you" had many complementing slogans and sentiments in Post-Occupy, such as the contempt for "tone policing", prohibition of devil's advocacy, and a general disdain for most debate and discussion techniques. this all came from watching bad attempts at debate play out for decades on the internet without making anything better. unfortunately, if you can't package your argument, test it, and redistribute it, you can't support or maintain it or even really defend it against threats. all you can really do is scream and bully, and that's exactly what happened from that point on. Bullying, in turn, does not achieve anything in the social media era because even if the target is vastly in the wrong, they can very easily find about a dozen or so people willing to stick up for them, and that is just enough agreement to help one sleep at night. Slow-Scan Shep has issued a correction as of 23:35 on Sep 23, 2017 |
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Sep 14, 2017 07:56
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The ascent of /pol/ is a case in point about how communities *will* devolve without structure. It also shows how 4chan style trolling can have a certain kind of rapacious relentlessness. When the /pol/ posters kept on spamming the other boards with their poo poo, they created a dynamic in which posters would either a) find it so repulsive and annoying that they would just leave, b) join in unironically, or c) fecklessly mock the /pol/ posters. Since the /pol/ posters would basically never leave, that last one was always a losing battle - the /pol/ posters would troll as relentlessly as /b/ used to, except this time with a political vision. And since the posters from a) were leaving in droves, it became a vicious cycle.
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Sep 14, 2017 14:13
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The left in some cases does reproduce this sort of reactionary take on race, gender, etc, and it's relationship with privilege. I'm a part of a burgeoning socialist organization that focuses on organizing people who aren't traditionally a part of the left. That is, instead of graduate students, relatively well-off people, and the local activist scene, we go after underserved communities and organize around their material self-interest while providing and inlet to socialism. Do not read this as a strict counterposition of the two -- we engage in the odd protest too, have plenty of graduate students (like me), and a few of the activist types (these people tend not to stick around). This kind of organizing is labor intensive and has basically no cool facebook selfie opportunity. It also builds real working-class power and solidarity that cuts across the various oppressions. We don't really talk about ourselves very often on social media and I guess that has caused a bit of a backlash from the activists in our community -- the ones that show up to most protests, are always willing to wave the signs, crash festivals, etc. Just recently we had a day set aside for doing a bunch of canvassing, have a planning meeting, then a public event. We got a last minute request -- a demand really -- that we show up to a DACA-related protest at an event where the mayor was supposed to be, to call him out for not supporting DACA. In reality it had a minor material demand, it's not even clear if the mayor was there, we weren't contacted in advance or included on the planning (we would have rejected the tactic anyway), and they ended up just pissing a bunch of people off. I'm not against pissing people off, but there needs to be a payoff. Anyway, so we got called out and poo poo talked for not showing up. We are "poor white allies" now. This ignores that we showed up to several similar events in the past week and a whole bunch of other stuff, but that's just more drama. It also ignores that, that very day we had spent a lot of time canvassing in an area and for a project that is most certainly not "privileged". Similar things have happened in the past with us and similar groups that we affiliate with. This is a case where identity is weaponized over a disagreement in strategy and tactics. There's this notion that, if we disagree with the idea of playing whack-a-mole with every event that pops up, we are not committed. And we don't have the cool facebook selfies to prove that we are (but we do have the witnesses!). The thing is, a lot if it really is performative wokeness. It's catharsis and if it informs peoples strategy and tactics, it actually hurts organizing efforts by burning bridges (insulting the very communities people are out to "help") and promoting in-fighting. Now I have to pep talk a bunch of people to counter the demoralization that this drama has brought. And we have to keep moving quickly because deadlines are fast approaching. If the left is going win, it needs to organize the unorganized. The same 10-20 people showing up to every single event, simply reacting to events, is a losing strategy. But even that's catharsis! "We lost, but we showed up, put our bodies on the line, and gave it our best -- welp, back to my comfortably middle class life"
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Sep 14, 2017 16:39
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Kudaros posted:The left in some cases does reproduce this sort of reactionary take on race, gender, etc, and it's relationship with privilege. I'm a part of a burgeoning socialist organization that focuses on organizing people who aren't traditionally a part of the left. That is, instead of graduate students, relatively well-off people, and the local activist scene, we go after underserved communities and organize around their material self-interest while providing and inlet to socialism. Do not read this as a strict counterposition of the two -- we engage in the odd protest too, have plenty of graduate students (like me), and a few of the activist types (these people tend not to stick around).
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Sep 14, 2017 17:04
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Remember when a bunch of anarchists in Portland or somewhere got together in black bloc getup and filled in a bunch of potholes in the city? That was pretty cool
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Sep 14, 2017 17:54
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A Buttery Pastry posted:This is like completely upside down to me, though it does make sense in the context of liberals redefining the left as what they support. You're just being properly traditional. You formed this sweeping judgement based entirely on that one bolded sentence?
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Sep 14, 2017 18:09
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Kinda feel it informs a lot to figure some people's entire exposure to the left is performative wokeness. They don't know what genuine activism even looks like or what sound it makes.
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Sep 14, 2017 18:19
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A Buttery Pastry posted:This is like completely upside down to me, though it does make sense in the context of liberals redefining the left as what they support. You're just being properly traditional. Do you mean to say properly traditional, as in how the precursors to a mass proletarian organization might have been in the past? I'm not sure what you are perceiving as upside down.
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Sep 14, 2017 18:19
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Kudaros posted:Do you mean to say properly traditional, as in how the precursors to a mass proletarian organization might have been in the past? I'm not sure what you are perceiving as upside down. Helsing posted:You formed this sweeping judgement based entirely on that one bolded sentence?
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Sep 14, 2017 19:25
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since he's being so coy about what group he represents im just going to assume that kudaros is a member of the traditionalist workers party until further notice
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Sep 14, 2017 19:39
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StashAugustine posted:Remember when a bunch of anarchists in Portland or somewhere got together in black bloc getup and filled in a bunch of potholes in the city? That was pretty cool or how DSA in New Orleans had an afternoon in the parking-lot of an Auto Zone, replacing peoples brake/tail lights for free as that's the #1 pretense for people getting pulled over by the cops? (they just sent out a guide to other locals who want to hold their own "Gimme a Brake (Light)!" events, mostly about planning, basic instructions on changing bulbs and what type/how many bulbs they should stock up on)
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Sep 14, 2017 20:26
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StashAugustine posted:Remember when a bunch of anarchists in Portland or somewhere got together in black bloc getup and filled in a bunch of potholes in the city? That was pretty cool greasing the gears of capitalism is counter-revolutionary obviously they should have taken common law ownership and declared secession from the union before repairing infrastructure
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Sep 14, 2017 23:24
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The upside down bit was the idea that "the traditional left" is graduate students and relatively well-off people, as opposed to underserved communities. Ok yeah. There was two ways of reading that or my comprehension is terrible. So I agree that it is upside down. This notion that left spaces is filled with relatively well-off middle class types is my personal experience with most organizations. The ones loudest about it anyway. Al! posted:since he's being so coy about what group he represents im just going to assume that kudaros is a member of the traditionalist workers party until further notice lol definitely not. I'd rather just not have a situation where I'm talking behind someones back -- I mean I guess that's what I'm doing, but I'm trying to work through and process it. -- and then boom more poo poo to deal with. Actually, that's a point of contention too. We try to meet people where they are at for the most part. Outright Matthew Heimbach people? No. Confused children? yes. Our local anti-racist organization doxxed an 18 year old 'adult' since he was mutual friends with someone actually in the TWP. This person posts a shitton of memes that make it seem like they're genuinely confused teenagers. They wanted to come to one of our events and I was sent this info on him. I support opposition to far-right organizations but this didn't seem in any way reasonable. It would have been best if someone talked to him. The "mutual friend" I would not be so charitable with.
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Sep 15, 2017 00:20
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Does he want to come to the event out of curiosity or just to doxx people/poo poo stir? Because 90%of the time it's the later. Also Kudaros, you don't have to give a poo poo about 'professional activists', you're doing the right thing by telling them to gently caress off, if you're not seeing a payoff. Guilt-tripping/shaming/call-out is simply a tactic they're using, to get what they want selfishly for themselves. It doesn't actually mean society as a whole is going to be better off, if just let them order you around.
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Sep 15, 2017 01:47
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There's something to be said for increasing the profile of left-wing activism, because otherwise barely anyone's going to know it exists. The media sure as gently caress isn't going to cover it.
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Sep 15, 2017 07:52
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