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You can say that X is a reaction to Y without blaming Y or excusing X.
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Jul 18, 2017 01:47
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Peel posted:also i think it's important to keep in mind in discussions like this that us millenials who are more online than any other generation, most exposed to and mainly constitutive of internet culture, are socialist SJWs and becoming moreso. the alt-right likes to hype itself up but everyone else is laughing at the gorilla cum dude just like we are, to the extent they are even aware of him. they are losing '''the meme war''', because they're stupid dipshits
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Jul 19, 2017 03:53
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Peel posted:there were several recent votes where the views of millennials were put to the acid test of the ballot box. they rejected widely hyped reactionary options (trump, brexit) and went for clearly articulated social democracy (sanders, corbyn). we don't need to appeal to the vague fear of a reactionary majority outside 'the bubble' any more, we tested and found out it wasn't there (in our generation). they are in the bubble. This is a rosy interpretation. Half of millenials don't vote and a good chunk of those that did swung for Trump, particularly among the least voting-est white demographics. So, good news at the ballot box, but these non-college educated white people are out there contributing to the culture and their situations and attitudes don't look poised to improve any time soon. I'm far more concerned about the reactionaries that exist but that I don't ever seem to encounter IRL than I am about internet savvy /pol/ posters. I don't think they're such a minority that I can dismiss the idea that I'm in a bubble.
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Jul 19, 2017 13:15
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Ze Pollack posted:for all their protestations about the coarse nature of democratic rhetoric, they have no problem signing onto the crudest and most brutal republican candidates. what drives them is not civility. what drives them is one party saying "we (at least hypothetically) seek to address systemic inequality" while another says "we will preserve inequalities you benefit from."
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Jul 19, 2017 17:51
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Crowsbeak posted:Well you seem to have a good handle. Come on explain what really is happening. Take at a statistic like 78% of Trump voters prioritizing illegal immigration as an issue. It would be fruitful to try to unpack that and understand exactly why that is such a concern, from their point of view, so that maybe we can craft a narrative that better assuages their fears. Or, so that we could make more effective and informed appeals to people on the margins who could swing either way. Writing them off as racists and xenophobes is gratifying but lazy. Even if you do want to distill it down to racism and xenophobia, it behooves us to understand exactly what it is that's animating it in them. Refusing to validate these concerns - which does not necessarily mean validating the premises of these concerns - creates a vacuum that is happily filled by the Right, and we've seen that time and again in everything from Red Pillers to /pol/ to the rise of anti-immigrant movements in Europe and the election of Trump in the States.
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Jul 19, 2017 22:11
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Crowsbeak posted:Actually my answer is to offer them universal healthcare. I mean I know some who actually voted for Trump who would love to have that. I also know they hate the bankers. So I would probably run on a platform of hanging the bankers. n illegal immigration, I would run on a platform of locking up and fining the people who illegally hire one hundred thousand dollars per illegal. I also know that is strongly supported. I mean I know that your gimmick is to then say that all the Trump Supporters are ancaps or some idiocy like that. Those ideas all sound better than writing them and their concerns off as an attempt to preserve inequality for its own sake a la Ze Pollack.
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Jul 19, 2017 23:33
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Jeb! Repetition posted:One I heard that's concise to the point of oversimplification but I like anyway is "the alt-right came about when people were told over and over to think about their whiteness, and they listened"
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Jul 20, 2017 20:56
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Ze Pollack posted:missed one
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Jul 20, 2017 22:54
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I think it's fair to import class into identity politics now, but it does highlight the murderous trajectory that comes of pairing essentialized identities with the traditional aims of class consciousness. For example, if white supremacy is IdPol for white people then that's an extremely good argument against white people ever ceding power.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:21
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Al! posted:shouldn't be a problem since sjws are mostly a fictional concept
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Jul 21, 2017 19:29
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That's a false dichotomy. It sounds nice but it doesn't follow.
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Jul 22, 2017 14:23
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rudatron posted:Who, uh, are you responding to? Sorry, was responding to this specifically: "If you see society as being 'changed' by a identifiable, nefarious cabal of 'Cultural Marxists', it's only logical that you would conceive of yourself as a 'Cultural Nazi'." E. It seems for that to be true then either "cultural nazism" is necessarily the response to cultural Marxism, or the alt-right is deliberately employing fascistic imagery in response to a phenomenon which they've cognized as cultural Marxism. I think either is a pretty big leap. unlimited shrimp has issued a correction as of 17:14 on Jul 22, 2017 |
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Jul 22, 2017 17:07
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Helsing posted:Given that "cultural Marxism" is a term that can be traced directly back to the Nazis and their criticism of "degenerate" art I'm not sure why it's a leap to think people who take the idea seriously would start adopting other fascistic ideas or symbols. It's too contrived. Now, I'd agree that serious alt-right thinkers may be retroactively making that connection as a post hoc justification, or that people like Richard Spencer may be making these arguments to add a veneer of rationalism to an unbridled id, but as someone who's observed 4chan since 2006ish, I don't think a conscious appropriation of Nazi symbolism as a response to perceived cultural Marxism is a better explanation for its aesthetic than the transgression argument. The nazi and fascistic imagery makes more sense to me as an alt-right analogue to when a pride marcher decides that they're going to present as a caricature of what a social conservative thinks a gay person is. This is somewhere else that outrage culture has influenced the alt-right, because I think a lot of its origins can be explained by angry young people saying "well if you're going to label me a Nazi or a racist then I will throw that back in your face." Phone posting, sorry.
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Jul 22, 2017 19:06
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How do you work on racism without working on poverty simultaneously, or first? How do we deal with the infinitely regressing nature of intersectional identities?
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Jul 22, 2017 19:38
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From an IdPol framework, please explain how Dutch people preferring to help their own tribe is something to be worked against.
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Jul 24, 2017 01:45
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Ze Pollack posted:the both moral and sociopolitical necessity of economic equality between tribes for what
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Jul 24, 2017 03:57
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Zas posted:you should know by now that when you say 'from an id-pol framework' you're not really saying anything worth saying Perhaps you are unaware that "identity politics" is an actual thing and not just a reactionary strawman. e. enough of this derail tho
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Jul 24, 2017 15:49
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Business Gorillas posted:I took her description of it as more of libs going slack jawed when he actually defends all the terrible poo poo he says with a straight face. Libs don't have the tools to handle a fascist because their only tool is to try and shame them for being racist and whine to their supervisor You know who's unequipped to handle a fascist? Someone who has no idea why they believe what they believe and who regurgitates political opinions without any understanding of them. That isn't a fault unique to any one ideology. Ken Ham would mop the floor with the feelingest of teenaged atheists if the kid didn't do his homework.
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Jul 24, 2017 16:14
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I haven't picked up this book yet as I'm still slogging through another, but does she offer any predictions about where things will head in the coming years?
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Jul 27, 2017 15:41
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You're usually better than that lazy second paragraph, rudatron.
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Jul 29, 2017 13:02
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Reducing the motivations of someone like Buchanan to "gently caress the poor", especially when the posted excerpt provides a much more plausible explanation. Maybe true in a consequentialist sense but it always sounds like unthinking demonizing when people do it. E. Maybe "venting" is more accurate. unlimited shrimp has issued a correction as of 15:33 on Jul 29, 2017 |
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Jul 29, 2017 14:25
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Ze Pollack posted:"It may be a completely accurate statement, but did you have to put it so ~harshly~" "You'll find that my claim is true if you accept this new set of axioms I've employed, here, which I haven't necessarily articulated, and which we haven't necessarily agreed upon. But I think you can infer my meaning, and they certainly help to make my point. All of which is to say that, from my point of view, it is the Jedi who are evil." unlimited shrimp has issued a correction as of 18:20 on Jul 29, 2017 |
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Jul 29, 2017 18:18
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Reee.
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Aug 8, 2017 03:13
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I don't think that's true of identity politics. People's use and understanding of the term has seemed fairly consistent to me over the last few years, with the primary disagreement being over whether or not it's a problem, and not whether it exists or how it's defined.
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Aug 10, 2017 20:01
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Sounds like someone took the red pill.
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Aug 11, 2017 03:35
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rudatron posted:Intersectionality doesn't solve the problem, it merely refames it as a 'lapse of judgement' on the part of idpolers - you just add a 'hotfix', and the problem is solved. But I'm not sure that's true, I think the problem is more fundamental than that, to the point that you can't really fix it without starting from scratch.
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Aug 11, 2017 12:52
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breaklaw posted:Intersectionality was created... by people trying to increase their status\importance by proving themselves more oppressed or less privileged than the others. 
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Aug 12, 2017 00:06
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Intersectionality is a reinvention of the concept of the individual.
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Aug 12, 2017 00:12
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I want you both to play on the opposite sides of the yard until lunch is over. If I catch you fighting again I'm calling home.
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Aug 12, 2017 01:04
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| # ¿ Apr 18, 2024 11:06 |
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Which important lessons? That identities are essential? That there are no bad tactics, only bad targets?
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Aug 17, 2017 13:34
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