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Nanigans
Aug 31, 2005

~Waku Waku~


Oh, yeah. I got him mixed up with Koyama. That guy sucks. Fusion Reborn is okay, some good comedy in that one.

I don't like either of the other two you listed, though.

Nanigans fucked around with this message at 21:10 on May 21, 2020

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MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012


I think he can use it wrong, cause it's not perfected Ultra Instinct.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


He sure didn't use it wrong against random schmucks he was fighting during ToP when he first popped it open and later when he fought Kefla. Like the only person who was able to do anything about Goku's popping and locking was Jiren and no poo poo the character designed to not care about anyone's gimmick didn't care about the lesser form of the form made to beat him.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



I feel like trying to use Ultra Instinct is using it wrong. It is something you have to give yourself over to.

Kurui Reiten
Apr 24, 2010


I think it's also important to remember that he literally just spent three months training with a newbie Angel to get more of a handle on Sign. It's completely possible he can now use it more willfully than he used to, and work with its limitations as opposed to letting it subsume him.

Him trying to power up as a desperation move when losing is pure Goku though, like popping progressively higher levels of Kaioken, or trying to go SSJ3 against Kid Buu when they had no other ideas.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Kurui Reiten posted:

I think it's also important to remember that he literally just spent three months training with a newbie Angel to get more of a handle on Sign. It's completely possible he can now use it more willfully than he used to, and work with its limitations as opposed to letting it subsume him.

Him trying to power up as a desperation move when losing is pure Goku though, like popping progressively higher levels of Kaioken, or trying to go SSJ3 against Kid Buu when they had no other ideas.

Neither of those things make any sort of sense though. The first sentence is a contradiction to the series since "letting UI subsume him" is exactly how it's meant to work, it's why it's Ultra Instinct. That he learned to use it thus he became worse at it is stupid as all hell too.

The second contradicts last week's chapter, where Goku pointed out that Moro's actions made it clear he knew he couldn't win against UI -Sign- in an actual match so he was trying to stall Goku so he'd run out of energy. With Goku knowing this last chapter (which is, at best, a couple of minutes ago in-universe, likely less considering how dumb time in DB is), why would he grow desperate? The examples you point to are all things that happened specifically because Goku had no other way to win, be it against Vegeta (Kaio-ken x3 and x4), Freeza (Kaio-ken x20), Pure Buu (Super Saiyan 3 when nearly out of Ki in the first place), Hit (Blue Kaio-ken) or whatever, all of them had Goku with his back against the wall. Here, he went from being entirely sure he could win to super desperate with nothing in the middle.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


Merus sucks btw

Hypocrisy
Oct 4, 2006
Lord of Sarcasm



Then at full power Goku punched Moro a bunch and Moro got up and smiled at him. That's when Goku started getting REALLY desperate.

Captain Baal posted:

Merus sucks btw

Thanks Whis.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


Moro does too

TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Pandamn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta


Grimey Drawer

Introducing a power level that lets you dodge everything and fight perfectly basically insures that it'll either never be used again or that it'll eventually be undermined, because otherwise there are no fights, so I don't know why anyone's shocked that UI's not working right. It's Dragon Ball, all villains are defeated by either new forms, new techniques, or an old technique with some twist that makes it more powerful. Goku didn't use any of those. Vegeta has (presumably) the latter two, so right now he's definitely got a way higher chance of winning than Goku. However he is also Vegeta so he's really got that working against him.

Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!


Pureauthor posted:

Perfected UI in the anime was Super Saiyan White anyway so complaints about it feeling cheapened now don't really scan for me.

What if Roshi's hair is white because he tapped into Ultra Instinct?

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017
how about we just not have the toilet cthulhu

Rigged Death Trap posted:

Id read it kore as goku panics and his monkey fight brain starts gaining ground over his divine martial artist state

Isn't the whole thing with UI basically monkey fight brain and divine martial artist becoming one and the same

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017
how about we just not have the toilet cthulhu

Blueberry Pancakes posted:

I like when Goku comes up with really good moves through analysis, even if that seems like it should be more of Vegeta's thing. Like when he notices the length of time it takes Hatchiyak to charge up his attack while everyone else is just going ham and charging in head-first.

Not really though, Goku's whole thing back from Dragon Ball is that he's really good at analysing and understanding fighting moves through observation, to the point of being able to duplicate techniques from seeing them once.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


TwoPair posted:

Introducing a power level that lets you dodge everything and fight perfectly basically insures that it'll either never be used again or that it'll eventually be undermined, because otherwise there are no fights, so I don't know why anyone's shocked that UI's not working right.

Don't use it then? It's not like this scene required UI especially since all it did was treat it like any other generic rear end power up when it's not supposed to be that (Even if it kind of is). Like the Super manga hasn't been good, but this was an exceptionally lame rear end chapter in an already bad arc. Like it's not worse than ToP, but the ToP section is exceptionally bad with knowledge of how the anime did it.

Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!


Ghost Leviathan posted:

Not really though, Goku's whole thing back from Dragon Ball is that he's really good at analysing and understanding fighting moves through observation, to the point of being able to duplicate techniques from seeing them once.

True! But Super seems to be going with the "Goku is a dipshit and always drops his guard while Vegeta is more of an overthinker" angle, so


Thanks.

Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 05:49 on May 22, 2020

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017
how about we just not have the toilet cthulhu

It's true in both ways though. Goku is still a sportsman at heart when it comes to combat and doesn't quite get that other people aren't necessarily, and Vegeta, bless him, tries to think tactically and leverage his advantages (something Future Trunks inherited) but forgets what genre he's in and what role that gives him.

Kurui Reiten
Apr 24, 2010


Blaze Dragon posted:

Neither of those things make any sort of sense though. The first sentence is a contradiction to the series since "letting UI subsume him" is exactly how it's meant to work, it's why it's Ultra Instinct. That he learned to use it thus he became worse at it is stupid as all hell too.

Remember how Super Saiyan was supposed to be a form full of rage and barely controllable, and Goku achieving it was the rebirth of a legend a thousand years in the making, and literally shook the very planet they were on like the universe was ending?

Remember how Krillin beaned him in the head with a loving rock a few years later while he was asleep in Super Saiyan?

Justin_Brett
Oct 23, 2012

GAMERDOME put down LOSER

Or how Gohan finally got Super Saiyan 2, a power years in the making, and then a few years later Goku just sort of had it?

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


Kurui Reiten posted:

Remember how Krillin beaned him in the head with a loving rock a few years later while he was asleep in Super Saiyan?

If we're counting filler in poo poo talking something I don't ever want to see anyone act like the destructo disc could cut anyone in half ever again

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012



Kurui Reiten posted:


Him trying to power up as a desperation move when losing is pure Goku though, like popping progressively higher levels of Kaioken, or trying to go SSJ3 against Kid Buu when they had no other ideas.


He thought he could beat kid buu with ssj3 tho.

Skeleton Mom
Aug 11, 2008



Justin_Brett posted:

Or how Gohan finally got Super Saiyan 2, a power years in the making, and then a few years later Goku just sort of had it?

i feel like it's a thing for saiyans to figure out a transformation largely by just seeing it done and having a high enough power level. developing a technique takes a long time, but after that it's open season. examples: ss3 gotenks, the u6 saiyans

a more fun question to ask that might not necessarily be answered by the above is how did vegeta gain access to god ki?

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Captain Baal posted:

Don't use it then? It's not like this scene required UI especially since all it did was treat it like any other generic rear end power up when it's not supposed to be that (Even if it kind of is). Like the Super manga hasn't been good, but this was an exceptionally lame rear end chapter in an already bad arc. Like it's not worse than ToP, but the ToP section is exceptionally bad with knowledge of how the anime did it.

Agreed. It would've been perfectly fine to say "Goku actually did not learn how to use even incomplete UI under Merus as Merus is kind of poo poo". You can even say he got closer to it so he can activate it during the battle and have a cool moment without the need to heavily tone down the form as it did here.

I don't really agree about the arc being bad though, if anything, I've actually liked most of it, the only thing that keeps being bad is how UI is treated, especially in this chapter, and even there this chapter had some really good Vegeta to make up for the really bad Goku.

Kurui Reiten posted:

Remember how Super Saiyan was supposed to be a form full of rage and barely controllable, and Goku achieving it was the rebirth of a legend a thousand years in the making, and literally shook the very planet they were on like the universe was ending?

Remember how Krillin beaned him in the head with a loving rock a few years later while he was asleep in Super Saiyan?

Not sure what you're going for here. Goku was literally asleep when he got hit by that rock, Super Saiyan or not, he had no defenses. This is something that's been constantly stated by the series, if you lower your guard, you get hurt, no matter how much power you may have.

Justin_Brett posted:

Or how Gohan finally got Super Saiyan 2, a power years in the making, and then a few years later Goku just sort of had it?

He trained and got it. That's how basic Super Saiyan levels work, you get stronger and you get them, especially since we need to keep the series going and can't keep Gohan as the protagonist because Japanese kids don't like him.

Skeleton Mom posted:

i feel like it's a thing for saiyans to figure out a transformation largely by just seeing it done and having a high enough power level. developing a technique takes a long time, but after that it's open season. examples: ss3 gotenks, the u6 saiyans

a more fun question to ask that might not necessarily be answered by the above is how did vegeta gain access to god ki?

It was said earlier in the thread, the true Saiyan power is "monkey see, monkey do". You only need one Saiyan to make an epic breakthrough, then the rest just kind of naturally follow.

How Vegeta got God Ki was not only answered, but answered twice in completely different ways!
-Anime: Vegeta learned to harness the power of the gods by training under Beerus and Whis. Goku is proud of him because of this, since he got there "the right way" instead of borrowing power from others.
-Kakarot: Vegeta did the Super Saiyan God ritual after Battle of Gods with the same people except with Future Trunks instead of Pan. This is much lamer and can be ignored.

Nanigans
Aug 31, 2005

~Waku Waku~


I'm still not really bothered by the way -Sign- is being depicted here. I can explain it away to myself in a satisfying way, anyway.

I re-read the chapter. Goku was fighting well enough and eventually got a really clean hit on Moro. When Moro essentially no-sold it, I think even Goku's perfect martial arts brain realized, a ton of dodging won't mean much if he can't actually land a decisive blow on Moro. That's when the desperation took over, and Goku essentially stopped being in -Sign-.

It's fairly consistent to the way the anime handled it. Where in -Sign- , Goku was definitely not stronger than Kefla, and had to rely on the rules of the tournament working in his favor. He knocked Kefla out of the ring, but that Tony Hawk Kamehameha (for as cool as it was) wouldn't have actually defeated her in a real fight.

Goku is still not punching at Moro's weight class in -Sign- and he doesn't have the luxury of tournament rules to support him. Without the added attack boost of MUI, -Sign- is really only useful in something like a tournament/ring-out setting or against someone Goku was already on equal ground with. MUI is the one that actively lets him attack and defend without the time lag of thinking.

I will say, even though I really thought the panel layout of Goku and Moro's throwdown at the start of the chapter was well done, it's not at all shown to be how Goku used -Sign- in the anime. There was no dodging involved, just a lot of blocking.

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012



Let's just agree the franchise should have stopped after broly

Nanigans
Aug 31, 2005

~Waku Waku~


Should have stopped after Freeza/Namek, really.

Lots of cool stuff after that, but it's never reached those heights again.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



The only real thing is that Dragon Ball is a work without substance that can't ever teach you anything.
https://twitter.com/DerekPadula/sta...027997243781120

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

Love how this dude talks like he wrote Dragonball

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010
Bench press was, is and will never be a great chest builder.

Death of the editor.

Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!


"Dragon Ball was a mistake." - Kazuhiko Torishima

Fargin Icehole
Feb 18, 2011

Pet me.


Stairmaster posted:

Let's just agree the franchise should have stopped after broly

Wait, which one? Regular or super?

Nanigans
Aug 31, 2005

~Waku Waku~


Torishima is an rear end in a top hat.

He definitely helped getting Dragon Ball off the ground and motivating Toriyama to be less lazy, but he and Shueisha are responsible for the burn out that so many Jump manga artists experience. Obviously, what's done is done, but who knows how things could have turned out if Toriyama and other artists were allowed more regular breaks.

And to say something like Dragon Ball has no substance? That's just patently not true, and a horrible thing to say in general since Toriyama was the guy's friend and meal ticket for years.

Spiritus Nox
Sep 2, 2011



You can tell he's dumb because he thinks it's possible to write something that means nothing.

Siegkrow
Oct 11, 2013

HURR DURR ASK ME ABOUT HOW I CAN'T STOP MENTIONING I THINK PEOPLE WHO LIKE A GAME CHARACTER ARE ACTUALLY GENOCIDE APOLOGISTS


You can tell Toriyama hated him because he based at the very least 2 villains on him. Dr Mashirito and Piccolo Daimaou

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



Off the subject but out of curiosity, how exactly is it that a new Dragon Ball Heroes episode came out this week when most of Toei Animation as far as I know is still on hiatus? Is Heroes done by a different studio or something?

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Larryb posted:

Off the subject but out of curiosity, how exactly is it that a new Dragon Ball Heroes episode came out this week when most of Toei Animation as far as I know is still on hiatus? Is Heroes done by a different studio or something?

It's by far the roughest Heroes episode so far, which says a lot considering how bad Heroes is normally. A new Heroes opening also came out and it's similarly really bad even by Heroes standards. They may have been rushed out before Toei closed down, they definitely don't show even the usual minimum polish Heroes stuff gets.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Nanigans posted:

I'm still not really bothered by the way -Sign- is being depicted here. I can explain it away to myself in a satisfying way, anyway.

I re-read the chapter. Goku was fighting well enough and eventually got a really clean hit on Moro. When Moro essentially no-sold it, I think even Goku's perfect martial arts brain realized, a ton of dodging won't mean much if he can't actually land a decisive blow on Moro. That's when the desperation took over, and Goku essentially stopped being in -Sign-.

It's fairly consistent to the way the anime handled it. Where in -Sign- , Goku was definitely not stronger than Kefla, and had to rely on the rules of the tournament working in his favor. He knocked Kefla out of the ring, but that Tony Hawk Kamehameha (for as cool as it was) wouldn't have actually defeated her in a real fight.

Goku is still not punching at Moro's weight class in -Sign- and he doesn't have the luxury of tournament rules to support him. Without the added attack boost of MUI, -Sign- is really only useful in something like a tournament/ring-out setting or against someone Goku was already on equal ground with. MUI is the one that actively lets him attack and defend without the time lag of thinking.

I will say, even though I really thought the panel layout of Goku and Moro's throwdown at the start of the chapter was well done, it's not at all shown to be how Goku used -Sign- in the anime. There was no dodging involved, just a lot of blocking.

To be fair it would have defeated Kefla since it broke her earring.

Nanigans
Aug 31, 2005

~Waku Waku~


ImpAtom posted:

To be fair it would have defeated Kefla since it broke her earring.

Potara rules seem pretty arbitrary.

Did they break because of the Kamehameha, or did the fusion run out just at that moment? Would breaking actually undo a fusion?

multijoe
Oct 15, 2007

how do i say this ... the first time i saw that ultimate life form ... i had a boner

Fun Shoe

Nanigans posted:

Potara rules seem pretty arbitrary.

Did they break because of the Kamehameha, or did the fusion run out just at that moment? Would breaking actually undo a fusion?

It's a pretty clear chain of events from eating a full power kamehameha to the earrings breaking to immediately defusing, by any metric Goku won that fight outright

Caidin
Oct 28, 2011


I wanna see Vegeta's cool new tricks and also hope he wins and is declared legally better then Goku.

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Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


Nanigans posted:

Potara rules seem pretty arbitrary.

Did they break because of the Kamehameha, or did the fusion run out just at that moment? Would breaking actually undo a fusion?

Let's be super honest, only Kale was pulling her weight power wise. Kefla is basically Cauli's personality married to Kale's muscle.

That's probably the only reason she wasn't able to 1 v 1 Jiren herself

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