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SuperMechagodzilla posted:If you are not a deceiver, you should be able to write a similar one or two sentences about Pacific Rim. "Pacific Rim is not fascist, because it is actually _______." Pacific Rim is not fascist, because it is actually socialist. It is merely a very pessimistic prediction of socialism, as it assumes (similarly to Watchmen) that a massive, extra-terrestrial tragedy would be the requirement to unite humanity under it. The Kaiju are not human, but they're not near-human in the manner of fascist Others, either. (I feel like this is an area where Starship Troopers slightly muddles its message, too, though that film makes up for it in other regards.) To elucidate my point: a neo-Nazi doesn't see an Arab as human, but unless they are quite literally hallucinating, they at least see a human form producing human speech with human motivations. The Kaiju, meanwhile, just drop out of Who The gently caress Knows Where and start tearing things up for utterly inscrutable reasons. They're a force of nature, rather than apparently sapient creatures, and characterizing an effort against them as fascistic is silly in the same manner that characterizing FEMA as fascistic for tornado relief would be. Knifehead is simply a tornado that you can stop by punching the poo poo out of it, rather than just waiting for it to pass and cleaning up. e: like, the thing about Starship Troopers is, I think the society depicted in the movie is completely bizarre and disgusting. however, with regards to the bugs vaporizing Buenos Aires and humanity getting incredibly goddamn pissed and going to gently caress their poo poo up regardless of the bugs being sapient, I... don't really think that's unreasonable, and I'm willing to give them that as a stopped-clock moment. I think even the best of us would probably react similarly in that situation, because it's not often that one day a city exists and the next day it fuckin' doesn't. we (largely) look at Hiroshima as an unspeakably horrible thing that we should never do again for a goddamn reason. WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 01:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:No, my argument is that Pacific Rim is specifically a Third Positionist film. Thank you for clarifying. The use of different terminology helped me understand. I'm not accustomed to seeing people call art "fascist" without an implicit "And therefore we should despise it and its creators as evil." I interpret it not just as a descriptive but also as a pejorative term, and an invitation for others to qualify their responses to the referent. (If that was your intention, then please gently caress off.) Given what you say, if we grant that it's correct to interpret multiple different countries as representing the viewer's single country, then you're not wrong. However, I object to your exercise of describing what it is if not fascist; specifically, I disagree with the framing it implies. Doing this takes it for granted that the film's ideology is in the category of assertions about the correct way to distribute the means of production. (I also didn't say anything about bankers. I didn't even say anything that is code for what "international bankers" is code for.)
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Jul 31, 2017 01:48
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Buenos Aires was an inside job.
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Jul 31, 2017 01:49
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Pops Mgee posted:Buenos Aires was an inside job. I really think Hiroshima is more comparable than 9/11 like, 9/11 was two buildings and a thousand or so people, not an entire loving city if an entire city just blew the gently caress up out of nowhere I'm pretty sure 90% of humanity would be losing their god-damned poo poo
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Jul 31, 2017 02:06
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:The Kaiju are not human, but they're not near-human in the manner of fascist Others, either. (I feel like this is an area where Starship Troopers slightly muddles its message, too, though that film makes up for it in other regards.) To elucidate my point: a neo-Nazi doesn't see an Arab as human, but unless they are quite literally hallucinating, they at least see a human form producing human speech with human motivations. The Kaiju, meanwhile, just drop out of Who The gently caress Knows Where and start tearing things up for utterly inscrutable reasons. They're a force of nature, rather than apparently sapient creatures, and characterizing an effort against them as fascistic is silly in the same manner that characterizing FEMA as fascistic for tornado relief would be. Knifehead is simply a tornado that you can stop by punching the poo poo out of it, rather than just waiting for it to pass and cleaning up. If you don't see someone as human, what difference does it make if they do or don't have a human form? They are also shown to be capable of reason and communication, and through communication with them we're told where the Kaiju are from and what their reasons for attacking are.
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Jul 31, 2017 02:10
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Zeris posted:because it is actually a film for children about white americans being completely ineffectual on their own and requiring the help of minorities and other nationals to succeed in defending their own country with giant robots. Yeah but that doesn't contradict anything SMG said. Really it's like you said what he said, but stupider. Hellboy 2 came out a few years before Pacific Rim (reminder same director) and there were several scenes about how the brutal killings of rampaging giant monsters (much like those in Pacific Rim) was a tragedy. Literal historical Fascists are the subjects and villains of two of del Toro's earlier films. I'm not sure or even particularly interested in how Pacific Rim relates to del Toro's personal politics. The idea that 'this is a kid's movie' and doesn't have political undertones is the worst kind of navel gazing. Kids films, with their moralizing, tend to be the most overtly political.
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Jul 31, 2017 02:42
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Pops Mgee posted:Buenos Aires was an inside job. The bugs didn't do it! The explanation that the big bugs that shot glowing things from their rear ends moved asteroids makes no sense. The humans had to use their warp drive to reach the bug worlds. Sky Marshal lied, brain bugs died.
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Jul 31, 2017 02:48
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Schwarzwald posted:If you don't see someone as human, what difference does it make if they do or don't have a human form? Well, if that not-human form is the form of a fuckin' 50-foot space lizard that tears buildings apart with its bare hands, I feel like that would make a bit of a difference. quote:They are also shown to be capable of reason and communication, and through communication with them we're told where the Kaiju are from and what their reasons for attacking are. Yeah, but we're not told this until quite a ways into the movie. It is clear to any reasonable human that Arabs are members of the race Homo sapiens, and that if a bunch of Arabs slam airplanes into a building, they probably had some reason for doing it; however, until Charlie Day gets brainfucked, the Kaiju are roughly as easily-communicated-with as tornadoes.
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Jul 31, 2017 02:58
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Twice before that the kaiju seem to try and communicate. The fat one makes no attempt to harm the Australian pilots after their robot is disabled. Instead she just looks at the pilots. She still doesn't hurt them, even after they shoot out her eye! The winged one tries to reach out to Charlie with her glowing appendage, making no attempt to injure him or the people with him. He recoils in fear and I if I recall correctly the glowing appendage, presumably another sensory organ, is then ripped off by the robot.
Sinding Johansson fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 03:04
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Pops Mgee posted:Buenos Aires was an inside job. That's a plot point in of Joe Haldeman's 1974 book, The Forever War.
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Jul 31, 2017 03:05
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:Pacific Rim is not fascist, because it is actually socialist. It is merely a very pessimistic prediction of socialism, as it assumes (similarly to Watchmen) that a massive, extra-terrestrial tragedy would be the requirement to unite humanity under it. What's weird about this post is that you haven't explained what makes the film socialist at all. You have only asserted, essentially, that the characters' fictionalized antisemitism has a firm pseudo-scientific basis. Like, "the enemy aren't people; they just look like people, and act like people, and even if they are people, they deserve extermination for their crimes...".
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Jul 31, 2017 03:29
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:No, my argument is that Pacific Rim is specifically a Third Positionist film. So was Knifehead a kaiju nationalist, or was that Slattern?
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Jul 31, 2017 03:38
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:Pacific Rim is not fascist, because it is actually socialist. It is merely a very pessimistic prediction of socialism, as it assumes (similarly to Watchmen) that a massive, extra-terrestrial tragedy would be the requirement to unite humanity under it. Ozymandias united the world under neoliberalism, though. Moore was reacting to Reagan, and predicted 9-11 as an inevitable necessity to reunite the world elite against a fictitious common enemy and legitimize their rule. As a broader point, in a completely fictional work, the nature of the conflict which drives the narrative is ideological. How you represent the antagonistic forces and how that conflict is resolved are choices which convey your ideology as a natural reaction to circumstances. A lot of your argument is "well, in Pacific Rim the Jews really are evil and do need to be exterminated." That is correct, the film presents the Kaiju as evil Kaijew which pollute the Earth merely by existing and will exterminate humanity if not eradicated and will betray loyal soldiers to their deaths if communicated with at all. It goes out of its way to posit a fictional enemy which conforms perfectly to fascist rhetoric, the only purpose imagining such an enemy serves is to naturalize fascism. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 04:12
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Hodgepodge posted:It goes out of its way to posit a fictional enemy which conforms perfectly to fascist rhetoric, the only purpose imagining such an enemy serves is to naturalize fascism. I wouldn't say that. A key element of the fascist Enemy is that, despite being a threat, it must also be inferior to the fascist. Sure, for a time the Enemy may be an existential threat, but that's just a fluke that must be corrected. The eventual victory is never in doubt, it may merely be delayed by temporary setbacks. The fascist is the superior, the Enemy the inferior, and by beating and subjugating the Enemy the natural order is restored  . In fact, this superiority to the Enemy is arguably the most basic aspect that binds all members of a fascist faction together moreso than any concepts of nationalism or whatever else.And that concept isn't really mirrored in the film at all. Neither the kaiju nor their creators are ever presented as anything less than utterly terrifying and becoming progressively ever more threatening. But perhaps the greatest conflict there lies in the general plan of just shutting down the conduit. It's a desperate long shot against a defeat that appears inevitable. Which is the exact opposite of the fascist's view of the guaranteed victory. Also, because of the Enemy's innate inferiority, only complete, total, and unconditional victory is ever acceptable to the fascist. But from the very beginning the goal, the very best case they aimed for, has always been to merely to restore the status quo ante, without ever delivering particular injury to the Enemy. That simply would not do for a fascist. Also, Pentecost makes for a poor image of a fascist leader. The will of the fascist leader is absolute and inviolable, to go against him is to betray the very cause itself. But twice we have characters intentionally and specifically go against his orders, once with Newt drifting with the Kaiju brain, and once with the Australians moving to engage the kaiju that are pummelling Cherno Alpha and Crimson Typhoon. And while both of these come with a cost (leading to the destruction of Cherno Alpha and Crimson Typhoon in Newt's case, a minor injury in the Australians' case), they are portrayed as explicitly heroic and commendable (albeit shortsighted) actions. In fact, without Newt's disobedience, the entire plan would have been doomed to failure. And the younger Australian was never reprimanded, but instead given the privilege of accompanying Pentecost into the final battle, which would be nothing less than the ultimate honour for a fascist. Having the leader be disobeyed and even shown to be wrong like this is really at odds with fascist ideals.
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Jul 31, 2017 12:33
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Hodgepodge posted:Ozymandias united the world under neoliberalism, though. Moore was reacting to Reagan, and predicted 9-11 as an inevitable necessity to reunite the world elite against a fictitious common enemy and legitimize their rule. How Is a kaiju a jew "Naturalize fascism" my dick It's a power fantasy
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Jul 31, 2017 14:12
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Perestroika posted:I wouldn't say that. A key element of the fascist Enemy is that, despite being a threat, it must also be inferior to the fascist. Sure, for a time the Enemy may be an existential threat, but that's just a fluke that must be corrected. The eventual victory is never in doubt, it may merely be delayed by temporary setbacks. The fascist is the superior, the Enemy the inferior, and by beating and subjugating the Enemy the natural order is restored The kaiju actually constantly shift between being easily defeated by the jaegers and being unstoppable threats. They are also revealed to be themselves slaves of a distant, sinister force, making them both brutally powerful and pathetically weak. Shutting down the conduit is total victory; it excludes the enemy from the world entirely; no one cares if they continue to exist in another dimension. The only possibility is the complete elimination of not only the enemy, but the possibility that more of the enemy will ever be born. Once seen, at the moment of their defeat, their masters are shown to be pathetic figures whose nuclear death is portrayed as deserving of mockery and scorn. quote:Pentecost As I said, the characters aren't fascists, they just exist in a fascist fantasy. Newt loves the kaiju and wants to learn about and communicate with them, but he learns that any attempt to do so comes at the cost of betraying jaegers to their death, etc. Fascism is pretty comfortable with deferring to soldiers in the heat of battle, though. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 14:54
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I remember when fiction didn't have to be Ideologically Correct.
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Jul 31, 2017 15:08
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also why isn't there a shred of fascist iconography or imagery in the entire movie where are the aesthetics, which are so important for the fascist vision
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Jul 31, 2017 15:15
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Milky Moor posted:I remember when fiction didn't have to be Ideologically Correct. This is CineD. It's socialism vs fascism all the way down.
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Jul 31, 2017 15:20
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Milky Moor posted:I remember when fiction didn't have to be Ideologically Correct. Who said it had to be? What is being argued is that a particular film has a particular ideology. Tolkien was, in his time, not only asked about whether his works were fascist, but actually approached by the Nazi Party inquiring about his racial background (his reply was rather sarcastic). Fiction is political, trying to pretend it isn't is playing at being an idiot.
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Jul 31, 2017 15:21
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Wild Horses posted:also why isn't there a shred of fascist iconography or imagery in the entire movie Funny, people seem to like the aesthetics of the jaegars most of the time.
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Jul 31, 2017 15:23
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Hodgepodge posted:Funny, people seem to like the aesthetics of the jaegars most of the time. Yeah like how Cherno Alpha was the coolest one everyone wishes they'd see more of oh OH  e: something something the chinese and russian jaegers getting destroyed is fascist propaganda, also knifehead is the jew-coded kaiju because it has a big nose and sticks it where it doesn't belong McSpanky fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 15:26
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Hodgepodge posted:Funny, people seem to like the aesthetics of the jaegars most of the time. they have An Aesthetic, they don't have fascist aesthetics, which is something completely different. Nothing in the movie actually has, there's no architecture of note, no artistry whatsoever that makes us feel like this is a revolutionary movement like you and SMG *spits* keep harping on about. all you have is some militarism and 'action' which is warped into fascism i guess
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Jul 31, 2017 15:37
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Mercifully the movie has nothing to do with a e s t h etics.
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Jul 31, 2017 15:42
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Bongo Bill posted:The fights were clear, but they were also dark. I saw it in 3D and it was a smeary, lovely mess. On release of the blu ray I watched it again and it was a glorious sight to behold, all the detail that the projectors couldn't put across was right there. Changed the film entirely when I could actually see it  Also Cherno was best Jaeger.
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Jul 31, 2017 15:52
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Wild Horses posted:they have An Aesthetic, they don't have fascist aesthetics, which is something completely different. There are two very important examples of architecture: the wall, and the jaegers. Actually three if you count the kaiju temples.
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Jul 31, 2017 15:56
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The film is very concerned with small group dynamics. Attempting to derive an idea about structuring a society or forming an economic model from such sentiment will result in something very naive, which is often proto-fascist. But it's based on a category error.
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Jul 31, 2017 15:56
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:The Kaiju, meanwhile, just drop out of Who The gently caress Knows Where and start tearing things up for utterly inscrutable reasons. They're a force of nature, rather than apparently sapient creatures, and characterizing an effort against them as fascistic is silly in the same manner that characterizing FEMA as fascistic for tornado relief would be. Knifehead is simply a tornado that you can stop by punching the poo poo out of it, rather than just waiting for it to pass and cleaning up. LORD OF BOOTY posted:Well, if that not-human form is the form of a fuckin' 50-foot space lizard that tears buildings apart with its bare hands, I feel like that would make a bit of a difference. "Kaiju are tornadoes except that sometimes you can mind meld with a tornado." Hm?
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Jul 31, 2017 16:30
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The funny bit is that the most compelling thing about Pacific Rim 2 is it might answer the question "why did the director of Pan's Labyrinth make a fascist sports mecha film?" I don't think GDT hosed up, he knows what he's doing. quote:We needed a new weapon. The world came together, pooling it's resources and throwing aside old rivalries for the sake of the greater good. To fight monsters, we created monsters of our own. The Jaeger program was born. some german douche posted:Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
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Jul 31, 2017 16:39
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The movie literally and figuratively centers around an abyss, and at the climax, one of the aliens in that abyss is gazing into Gipsy Danger.
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Jul 31, 2017 16:44
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Wild Horses posted:Nothing in the movie actually has, there's no architecture of note, no artistry whatsoever that makes us feel like this is a revolutionary movement like you and SMG *spits* keep harping on about. Did you not notice the titanic, powerful, masculine architecture that marches into battle to a heavy metal orchestral soundtrack?
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Jul 31, 2017 17:09
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There is a lot of focus on individuality of the Jaegers, though frankly not enough IMO. They're all built to different aesthetics, subtly or otherwise. It's like trying to say Captain Planet is fascist, honestly.
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Jul 31, 2017 17:13
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Fascism aestheticized politics, to be sure, but it's pretty weird to claim a movie can't be fascist if it doesn't look like it was designed by Speer and Breker.
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Jul 31, 2017 17:17
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quote:Ozymandias united the world under neoliberalism, though. Lmao, yep, having oil executives killed who won't get on board with Free Unlimited Energy for everyone is neoliberal as heck. I bet Ozy also wants some kind of free healthcare for everyone too. loving neo lib trashman.
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Jul 31, 2017 17:31
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MariusLecter posted:Lmao, yep, having oil executives killed who won't get on board with Free Unlimited Energy for everyone is neoliberal as heck. He had just conquered the world with capitalism, dude; and was written in the context of reagan, glasnost and perestroika. He was writing about the victory of what came to be called neoliberalism in the wake of the Cold War.   Moore also managed to have god tell off Francis Fukuyama a decade in advance of "The End of History?" which is pretty impressive: 
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Jul 31, 2017 17:49
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Milky Moor posted:I remember when fiction didn't have to be Ideologically Correct. Goons think 'otherizing' skyscraper-sized monsters is bigotry.
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Jul 31, 2017 18:21
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 Whatever could this mean?!
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Jul 31, 2017 18:26
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Bongo Bill posted:The film is very concerned with small group dynamics. Attempting to derive an idea about structuring a society or forming an economic model from such sentiment will result in something very naive, which is often proto-fascist. But it's based on a category error. I think some people are getting a bit literal. It's not a checklist or an essay, it's not going to fit every tiny detail point by point allegorically for ANY interpretation. Not that "fascism" is, even by the standards of political ideologies, easy to pin down. Halloween Jack posted:Fascism aestheticized politics, to be sure, but it's pretty weird to claim a movie can't be fascist if it doesn't look like it was designed by Speer and Breker. Heh perhaps you hadn't noticed but none of these characters are Europeans born in the first half of the 20th century and not a single one of the claims membership in the National Socialist German Worker's Party Hodgepodge posted:The funny bit is that the most compelling thing about Pacific Rim 2 is it might answer the question "why did the director of Pan's Labyrinth make a fascist sports mecha film?" He's directed 2 movies set in the Spanish Civil War and at least 2 more with Nazi villians, and I've literally heard him talk about Eco's ur-Fascist rubric, in person
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Jul 31, 2017 18:31
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Olympic Mathlete posted:I saw it in 3D and it was a smeary, lovely mess. On release of the blu ray I watched it again and it was a glorious sight to behold, all the detail that the projectors couldn't put across was right there. Changed the film entirely when I could actually see it I didn't see it in 3D, thank goodness, so I could tell objectively what was going on. Unfortunately what was going on was largely "they are slowly and clumsily grappling while partially obscured by water and/or silt". Fortunately, Del Toro predicted that at every waking moment of the kaiju fights, my chief concern was wait, what are the PILOTS doing right now? Are they miming what the robot is doing? If only there was some way to tell-
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Jul 31, 2017 18:51
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What Gundam designs will the movie crib this time. Cherno is a zaku 2 and coyote tango is a guncannon
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Jul 31, 2017 19:09
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