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Face Jake was just Heel Jake with different enemies.
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May 10, 2018 13:21
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Rarity posted:So that's Summerslam 1991 finished which means Survivor Series 1991 is just around the corner but first we're going to have a little pitstop. The next entry is going to be a little experimental, I hope you guys will be happy to come along with me. You're... going to be doing that Hulk Hogan PPV they kept advertising?
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May 10, 2018 13:24
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Gavok posted:You're... going to be doing that Hulk Hogan PPV they kept advertising? You guys don't pay me enough for that
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May 10, 2018 13:26
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All right, good. Pretty sure those things were just best of packages and figured you'd be wasting your time watching matches you've already reviewed. I mean, if you're going to be watching any Hulk Hogan special from that time, it should be the Nickelodeon thing about how the Hulkster was overweight as a kid. Anyone else remember that?
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May 10, 2018 13:56
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Gavok posted:All right, good. Pretty sure those things were just best of packages and figured you'd be wasting your time watching matches you've already reviewed. Something something ate a shopping cart full of food? Am I thinking of the right thing?
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May 10, 2018 18:26
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I googled it and the Hogan PPV is just a best-of and Okerlund interviewing Hogan's parents about how he's the best and greatest man.
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May 10, 2018 18:40
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Gavok posted:All right, good. Pretty sure those things were just best of packages and figured you'd be wasting your time watching matches you've already reviewed. Wasn't it also the one that once he got in shape, how he was too good at every sport and would get banned from the local little leagues? That and Fat Kid Hogan running up and down the bleachers are the only thing I remember.
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May 10, 2018 23:17
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Survivor Series 91 is interesting cause it's the first PPV where you can see the WWF crowd starting to turn on Hogan
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May 10, 2018 23:51
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I won't go into details because spoilers, but Survivor Series 91 was me and my brother TL's first PPV and we literally wept at one point. Our parents smartened us up after that.
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May 11, 2018 02:07
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One final fun fact about this PPV: due to the lawsuit Warrior pulled against McMahon they actually had to release the financial details of the event to the public for the first time. In it, we can see that Savage and Elizabeth actually got Main Event level bonuses just for their wedding ($75k and $50k). For Savage, that's actually on par with what Warrior and Hogan supposedly got on paper ($75k each--Warrior held up Vince for a lot more and Hogan was known to get extra bonuses off-the-record) and Liz got significantly more than everyone else on the card except Slaughter and Sheik ($50k each). For reference, Bret got only ($20k).
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May 11, 2018 04:43
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The Madonna and the Whore: A Discussion of the Representation of Women in the WWF in the Early 90s As long-time readers of my reviews will be eminently aware, I'm fascinated by the ways in which wrestling pulls in socio-political issues to use as a frame for its storytelling. This is a process which can occur consciously, such as with Sgt. Slaughter's Iraqi sympathiser angle, but also occurs naturally without the author's intent. Like any form of media professional wrestling is a product of the culture in which it was created and so common social issues will inevitably be introduced. In this essay I will take a look at the ways in which the WWF chose to represent women in the early 90s by viewing Elizabeth and Sensational Sherri through the lens of the Madonna-Whore Complex. By doing so I will argue that these characters are not only a product of their times but also contributed to the misogyny inherent in 90s society. Before we can explore how well Elizabeth and Sherri match the Madonna-Whore dichotomy we must first define the nature of the Madonna-Whore Complex. The complex was originally identified by Sigmund Freud and defined as an inability to maintain sexual arousal in committed relationships due to men only being able to see women as saintly Madonna figures or degraded prostitutes. While the Madonna is worthy of love she has no sexuality and therefore she is not desired. On the other hand the Whore is willing and capable of fulfilling a man's sexual desires but in doing so she loses his respect. According to Freud this split in categorisation occurs as a result of a man's relationship with his mother (which is not a surprise for anyone with even a cursory understanding of Freud). Already it is clear that this complex has a negative impact on the man as it prevents him from forming satisfying intimate relationships. At the same time this complex also has deep negative connotations for the woman who is forced into one of two limited roles that restricts her from expressing her full personality. Either she is locked into comparisons with a perfect ideal she can never hope to meet or she is debased to the point where her every thought and action is judged as unworthy. It is through this framework that we will examine the presentation of Elizabeth and Sherri in the WWF. For further background it is also important to consider the cultural context in which Elizabeth and Sherri's careers took place. Elizabeth arrived on WWF screens in the summer of 1985 while Sherri followed a couple of years later in 1987. These women formed their careers in the 80s, a decade where the feminist movement in the Western world had fallen out of favour. Splits in the movement between radicials, liberals and equalists meant that there were no longer any strong voices pushing for women's representation. Throughout history we can see that any social progress for minorities is followed by a strong pushback from the empowered in-groups. This can be seen in the celebration of Confederate war heroes following the Civil Rights movement or the post-feminist lad culture of the late 90s. This means that Elizabeth and Sherri marked their careers at a time when society was focused on re-establishing its patriarchal structures. It should come as no surprise that the representation of Elizabeth and Sherri was influenced by this social movement. At this point it is important to acknowledge the filter of the medium of professional wrestling and the role this plays in any literary analysis. Storytelling in professional wrestling is different to that of films, television, books, video games and the majority of other mediums. This comes not from the performance aspect but rather from the clear distinction between faces and heels. In professional wrestling there is a clear divide between heroes and villains and every character by nature must fit into one of these categories. This is a trait that is shared with only pantomime and some comic books. Fans cheer for the faces because they are honourable and brave, they boo the heels because they are deceitful and mean. Sometimes these reactions may be blurred when a face is too bland or a heel too entertaining but even in these cases it does not change the way in which the character is represented. These alignments are a vital aspect of professional wrestling and must be accepted. Elizabeth spent her entire WWF career as a face and Sherri spent her entire WWF career as a heel. In isolation there is nothing wrong with these two performers being limited in these roles. Indeed, both women excelled at playing to their alignment. It is the additional features of their gimmicks and characterisations that require closer examination. Of course, Elizabeth and Sherri weren't the only women active in the WWF at the start of the 90s. In order to fully examine their roles as Madonna and Whore we must also acknowledge the brief career of Sweet Sapphire. Debuting in late 1989, Sapphire acted as manager for Dusty Rhodes for close to a year before being bought off by Ted DiBiase, after which she promptly disappeared. It is safe to say that Sapphire doesn't fall on either end of Freud's scale. Throughout her career Dusty treated her with respect but at the same time she was always allowed to be flawed. During Brother Love's talk show at Royal Rumble 1990 the extent of verbal abuse received from Love and Sherri is intended to be sympathetic rather than triumphant. This raises an important question. If Sapphire was allowed the space to be herself then how can we claim the WWF is reinforcing the Madonna-Whore Complex? However, there is one key point that answers this question. Sapphire is never presented as desireable. We are not intended to lust for her or desire intimacy with her and thus there are no expectations for her behaviour. Therefore she has the freedom to be herself. However, this is not without its own drawbacks. Being an unattractive woman is a crime all of its own and opens her to an entirely different set of judgements. At the end of the day there is no way to win for a woman to win in the early 90s. When Elizabeth made her debut in the WWF she entered into a business relationship with Randy Savage. She would go on to be linked to him for the rest of her career. The initial dynamic was one of Elizabeth as the supportive yet ill-treated face to Savage's conceited and domineering heel. This extended to the point where he wouldn't even allow her to speak. Already we can see questionable messages being represented and it is here where the beginning of Elizabeth's Madonna persona is formed. By presenting her in a role where she was 'too good' for Savage she was immediately placed on a pedestal. Elizabeth was not allowed to show any flaws of her own because doing so would bring her down to Savage's level. While this may appear logical under the filter of face-heel alignments this idolisation as a by-product subconsciously sets up the Madonna persona and all of Elizabeth's future actions are judged from this perspective. In her first real storyline Elizabeth becomes the object of affection for George Steele. While the fact Elizabeth's agency in this story is non-existent is a harmful message on its own this is compounded when we consider Steele's character. With a gimmick of “The Animal”, Steele is presented as a childlike figure. Low in intelligence and emotional awareness, Steele's innocent infatuation is seen as asexual. Steele is enamoured with Elizabeth without a doubt but he never appears to have any sexual desire for her. From here Elizabeth's status as the Madonna has been firmly established. She is beautiful, she is glamorous and she exists only to be admired but to fulfil this role she must be perfect. To be anything less would be to disappoint her admirers. Elizabeth may have debuted on television as a fully-formed character but Sherri's journey to establishing herself was somewhat more meandering. First appearing as a wrestler in the women's division, Sherri became the Women's champion and held the belt until losing it to Rockin' Robin. During she this time she may have been able to call herself a champion but she did not receive prominence in the WWF's shows. It was only when she gave up in-ring competition to manage Randy Savage in the fallout of WM5 that her persona came together. Sherri had always been a heel but now her personality was amplified. With colourful make-up and extravagant outfits she created a brand new look and became known for extreme emotional outbursts that led to her receiving the moniker 'Scary Sherri'. In the early days of this version of Sherri there was no oblique references to her sexuality but even so the Whore archetype was beginning to form. It is no coincidence that the most prominent aspects of her character were hyper-feminine. For wanting to look attractive, for expressing her emotional state Sherri is already being judged as unworthy. While women are far more than just their physical appearance in the context of this analysis it is important to consider the way they dress. In fact it is in this comparison that the Madonna-Whore dichotomy is most immediately apparent. Throughout her time in the WWF Elizabeth would be seen in glamorous cocktail dresses that drew the admiration of the commentary team. Occasionally she would bare some cleavage but she never would appear out of place at a black tie event. She was beautiful yet conservative in her attire. Just like the Madonna should be, she exists to be attractive without ever being sexualised. On the other hand Sherri's fashion sense was far more provocative. She would often wear dresses slit up to the thigh with visible lingerie. On other occasions she wore dresses with large areas cut out to reveal extra skin. Sherri intentionally, even aggressively, displays her sexuality. On its own basis this is not a reason to demean Sherri but when viewed through her heel alignment it sets up a very clear link between dressing provocatively and deserving hatred. At Royal Rumble 1991, in one of the most memorable scenes of the era Sherri attempts to persuade the Ultimate Warrior to grant Savage a title shot by seducing him. In this scene her sexuality is so prominent that she even drops to her knees in a suggestive image implying she will perform an oral sex act on him. While Sherri is unsuccessful in her plan this devious act is the moment in which her role as the Whore has been accepted to its fullest. Here she is fully comfortable in her sexuality, an act for which the Whore can never be forgiven. Yet this is not the full extent of her wrongdoings. In trying to seduce Warrior she not only displays her sexuality, she goes so far as to use it as a weapon. In the eyes of male-dominated society this is the biggest crime the Whore can perform. For it is here where the Whore is able to take power from the man, the most unforgivable act of them all. There are times when Sherri chooses to push her sexuality but these are not the only times she is involved in sexual acts. As an example of this there is an angle where Sherri attempts to persuade a newly turned Andre the Giant to take her on as his new manager. Being once more the noble face that he began his career as Andre does not fall for Sherri's charms. However, it is not enough that Andre refuses her advances. To re-establish his dominance he bends Sherri over and gives her a spanking. This is not the only time that one of the faces treat her in such manner and during one such moment Gorilla Monsoon even exclaims that “she likes it!” Despite this assertion Sherri never consents to be on the receiving end of this demeaning treatment. Because she is the Whore her consent is presumed, her very reason for existence is to provide the man with submission and satisfaction. By contrast Elizabeth is rarely called upon to display her sexuality. While she is always acknowledged to be attractive she does not display the same raw sense of lust. Her affection is romantic, at times almost maternal. This lack of sexuality fits the pure Madonna to the fullest degree. There is one main exception to this behaviour and that is at Summerslam 1988. In order to help her team,the Mega Powers, reach victory over the team of Ted DiBiase and Andre the Giant Elizabeth provided a major distraction by taking her skirt off to reveal her legs and bottom. Yet even here she cannot fully leave the role of the Madonna behind. This act of provocation is sexual but passive in nature. She does not force the heels to fall for her distraction and when they do their only response is to look on in admiration. Even here Elizabeth remains a vision of beauty to be observed from afar rather than an equal woman to be treated as such. As the Madonna and the Whore archetypes are defined in relation to the men which desire them in order to assess how Elizabeth and Sherri fit these roles we must look at their relationship with the man who they are connected with, Randy Savage. Forming a bond in the wake of Savage's heel turn post-WM5 Sherri's connection to Savage is never portrayed as more than one of convenience. Each partner wants success and each believes that working with the other will help them reach their goals. To the WWF's credit there is no direct confirmation that their relationship is sexual in nature, although Sherri's coronation as Queen once Savage becomes the Macho King carries strong implications. However, there is also a severe lack of emotion and heart in their bond. When Warrior spurns Sherri's advances Savage's first thought is of Warrior rather than to provide support to this rejected woman. When Savage loses his retirement match at WM7 Sherri reacts with blame rather than love. In the arms of the Whore there can be no emotional fulfillment. Whereas his relationship with Sherri is casual and disposable, the connection between Savage and Elizabeth is presented throughout their career as deep and meaningful. In their original run even though their relationship is purely business in nature there are still unspoken feelings that tie the two together. Savage is fiercely protective of Elizabeth and even his heel tendencies to control her come from a desire to keep her close. As Savage transitions into a fan favourite this behaviour morphs into tenderness and affection. Elizabeth is still only his business manager but it is clear that she has great personal value to him. It is this value that lies at the root of Savage's jealousy when Hulk Hogan gets close to Elizabeth thus driving a wedge between the Mega Powers and setting Savage back on the path to his villainous ways. For her part, Elizabeth struggles to break away from Savage's influence. Even when he is at his worst she remains conflicted and her feelings are so strong she is still not able to be more than neutral for the main event of WM5. Following Summerslam 1989 Elizabeth does take time away from Savage and the spotlight although even then they are still inexorably tied together as her surprise appearance at WM6 shows. It is one year later at WM7 in the wake of Savage's retirement match against Warrior that they orbit back into each other's spheres. Elizabeth has already been filled with emotional turmoil from the match itself and the sight of Sherri attacking Savage is more than she can bear. She jumps the barricade and comes to his rescue and their reunion begins. Both are conflicted, Savage acknowledges his own shortcomings and apologises and in the Madonna he finds forgiveness. Their feelings are expressed and they embrace as Savage has claimed the one thing he wanted above all others. While the Whore is a distraction the Madonna exists as a prize, the reward for man's greatest victories. Savage may have lost the match but in apologising he has won the battle against his own shortcomings and Elizabeth is his reward. At Summerslam 1991 this dynamic is confirmed as Savage weds Elizabeth to fully take her as his own. There are many fundamental differences between Elizabeth and Sherri as characters and performers. In some ways you can consider them shadow selves of each other. Another way in which they are opposite is the way they interact with violence. Unlike other managers in the WWF Elizabeth always refrained from getting physically involved and avoided the humiliations reaped upon the likes of Jimmy Hart and Slick. Elizabeth is the victim of violence only once in her career, on the fateful Saturday Night's Main Event where the Mega Powers break up and Savage hurls her across the medical room. This act is so heinous, so inherently wrong, that Savage's heel turn is cemented in an instant. As the Madonna Elizabeth exists to be protected and worshipped so to cause her harm is the greatest failing imaginable. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for Sherri. Intergender competition in wrestling is a controversial subject with no clear right answer and this essay does not attempt to form a judgement either way. Instead the focus is specifically on Sherri's violent interactions. As a former wrestler Sherri was trained to take bumps in a way that Elizabeth never could. This allowed Sherri to receive the traditional humiliations and beatings of a heel manager and this occurred many times from the likes of Dusty Rhodes, the Ultimate Warrior and Burtus Beefcake. While this is all formulaic in the world of professional wrestling, when viewed through the lens of the Madonna-Whore dynamic it becomes deeply troubling. Violence against the Whore is not just accepted but celebrated. For the transgression of expressing her sexuality Sherri must be punished and this is metered out through man's most useful tool, physical assault. In the course of this essay we have explored the extent to which Elizabeth and Sherri's on-screen personas fit the roles of the Madonna-Whore Complex. However, these women were far more than the characters they portrayed. Elizabeth Ann Hulette died in 2003 at the age of 42 after a drug overdose on prescription medication at the house of Lex Luger. Elizabeth had been having an affair with Luger at the time although the relationship had been tempestuous with Luger previously arrested for assaulting her. It is impossible to connect this Elizabeth to the wholesome and pure version that we see on-screen. Sherri Martel was a fantastic performer who was dedicated to entertaining the fans. She worked hard to get her wrestlers over, she was fearless in the way she would take bumps from the men and she played her role to perfection. These are all highly positive characteristics which were ignored because they did not fit the Whore. Sherri died in 2007 at the age of 49 after a drug overdose. For two women who portrayed such different personas it is almost ironic that they shared such similar fates. But that is all the Madonna and the Whore have ever been, reductive personas pushed on women by men that prevent them from being fully rounded human beings in both their triumphs and failings. In planning this essay I knew that I wanted to end on an insightful conclusion. I didn't just want to end by answering the question of whether Elizabeth and Sherri fit the roles of Madonna and Whore because I think I have shown that they very obviously do. However what I did not expect to find were the negative messages that the WWF conflated with these roles. Professional wrestling is a world defined by violence where the face-heel dichotomy enforces a black and white morality that eliminates shades of grey. This leads to media presenting messages that are deeply problematic. For a child watching wrestling in the early 90s these messages would play a powerful role in modelling their gender norms. Not only were the WWF using the Madonna-Whore Complex to reinforce messages to women of the importance of perfection and the shamefulness of their sexuality they were also sending messages to men. They were teaching men that women exist for their purpose and violence against sexual women is acceptable. In 2018 I am confident that we can all see the invalidity of these statements. I love this big dumb sport with all my heart but I think we must learn the lessons of the past. The nature of storytelling in wrestling allows for harmful messages to slip through so easily. As fans it is our responsibility to question, to contradict and to protest to ensure that wrestling does not impact future generations the way that it has impacted ours. --- So that's the essay all finished but I'd really like to close this out by opening up a deeper discussion about this subject matter. I really want to hear from both male and female fans who were watching these shows as they aired. What did you think of Elizabeth and Sherri at the time? Do you agree with the analysis that they represent the Madonna-Whore Complex? Men, do you think the way Elizabeth and Sherri were represented has affected the way that you treat women? Women, do you think the way Elizabeth and Sherri were represented has affected the way you see yourself? People, I would love to hear your insights.
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May 12, 2018 06:23
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I think you might have pages more to add to this once you get a few shows in
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May 12, 2018 13:18
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Oh man there is so, so much to say, but it might qualify as spoilers, so I will leave it be for now.
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May 12, 2018 15:17
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That was a great, well thought out essay. One problem, however.quote:Fans cheer for the faces because they are honourable and brave, they boo the heels because they are deceitful and mean.  My favorite Maddona-Whore Complex story is the stand up comedian who was attracted to this girl when he was a teenager, then the moment she allowed him to perform a sex act on her he became disgusted by her and didn't want anything to do with her.
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May 12, 2018 15:20
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Takuan posted:That was a great, well thought out essay. One problem, however. Hulk Hogan was cheered because he gave all those horrible cheaters a taste of their own medicine. It was cathartic to see someone who had routinely cheated their way up the ladder get beat by someone using their own methods.
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May 12, 2018 16:21
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Not to go into spoilers since you may still yet want to review WCW someday, but it's very interesting that in their WCW careers that Sherri and Elizabeth were allowed to be much more rounded and independent characters than they ever were in WWF (Elizabeth was even HEEL). This in spite of the fact that WCW was always looked down as more traditional, Southern, and old-school than WWF but in fact they were actually much more progressive at certain times. Of course, they could also be much worse (Col. Rob Parker leading Harlem Heat down in chains, anyone?).
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May 12, 2018 16:54
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Shiki Dan posted:
Does any footage or photos of that exist? Because over the years the story's changed. Originally it was said they were supposed to be slaves, then later people said they were supposed to be on a chain gang (not like either are good)
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May 12, 2018 17:43
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I don't think it made it to air, but it was definitely pitched. It was actually part of Stevie Ray's racial discrimination lawsuit against WCW.
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May 12, 2018 18:00
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Rarity posted:Women, do you think the way Elizabeth and Sherri were represented has affected the way you see yourself? People, I would love to hear your insights. I remember thinking Miss Elizabeth was the best, most beautiful, most wonderful person in the entire world when I was a small girl watching wrestling (I was five or six, so 1991-ish?). I saw how my father watched her, and how she was perfect. Honestly, Sherri never crossed my mind because she wasn't perfect and beautiful and pristine like Miss Elizabeth was. I also watched during the Attitude Era when women like Lita and Chyna debuted, and I can honestly say that I saw myself much more in them. I wanted to venerate Miss Elizabeth, but I wanted to be as badass and strong as Chyna, and as fearless and bold as Lita. Rewatching bits and pieces, I think if I'd been older at the time, I would have been more interested in Sherri because she was so clearly not Perfect And Beautiful. Miss Elizabeth was someone to respect and love without any impurities. Sherri was someone to admire for being Who She Is, warts and all. gamingCaffeinator fucked around with this message at 02:00 on May 13, 2018 |
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May 12, 2018 18:40
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Shiki Dan posted:Not to go into spoilers since you may still yet want to review WCW someday, but it's very interesting that in their WCW careers that Sherri and Elizabeth were allowed to be much more rounded and independent characters than they ever were in WWF (Elizabeth was even HEEL). There's the strange mix in the south of women expected to defer to husbands, but at the same time, a traditional southern female could command a ton of respect. Baby Doll was more or less treated as a piece of meat, but individuals like Woman and Alexandra York were more than valets. Strangely, Baby Doll was allowed to hold her own in athletic competition (and Nickla Roberts was a legit athlete) but Woman and York weren't physically involved. Except when high-heeled shoes were involved in Woman's case (and Elizabeth's). Later WCW went all over the place with Kimberly. She started as DDP's valet until the angle that led to her liberation. Ultimately as WCW spiraled, she was physically involved. That led to the problems with Russo that also involved Elizabeth of valets with non-wrestling contracts being forced to wrestle.
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May 12, 2018 23:57
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DeathChicken posted:I think you might have pages more to add to this once you get a few shows in Don't worry, I imagine now that I've covered this I'll be pulling out the extra bits as we go on. Anyway, people, do let me know if you liked that and want to see more of it. Cause I've got a couple of other ideas to sprinkle in on a rare basis but if you'd rather I'd just crack on with the pithy remarks and slagging off classic wrestlers you adore then I'm cool with doing that as well 
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May 13, 2018 01:17
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Miss Elizabeth was always that. MISS Elizabeth. And as a primary schooler, the MISS was a sign of respect so obviously Miss Elizabeth was someone to respect and admire just based on her title. Having never really had a discussion using the Madonna / Whore imagery has a framing mechanism before - being honest I thought your essay was on the singer vs the ideal when I saw the title - it’s hard for me to now separate Miss Elizabeth from that Plutonic ideal of what a women valet of the era should be, emotionally supportive of her wrestler, yet weak enough to be in peril by the heel. I never really watched during the George Steele program so I can’t comment on that but Miss Elizabeth was almost like the redeemer for Randy Savage. He fell but she pulled him back to the light, his redemption was entirely due to her and her actions. However this build up to the wedding and what I can recall, it felt like Miss Elizabeth was almost an afterthought. Savage had a televised “bachelor party” on the WWF night time show that I got to stay up late and watch. The only guests I can remember are Monsoon, Okerland, and Piper. I also distinctly remember Piper bringing “Budweasel” beer to the party. Side note: even now I think of her as Miss Elizabeth and I can’t bring myself to type it any other way. She will always be Miss Elizabeth to me. The Sensational Sherri was very different for me. She was dynamic and hard vs Miss Elizabeth’s soft and static portrayal. Sherri (note: I don’t have a hard time calling her Sherri, like I do with Miss Elizabeth) was unafraid to mix it up with the men, she actively and regularly interfered in matches. She was BAD, because she wanted to win, and in the era where there were purses attached to matches it meant that she was a CHEATER. Looking back, she was awesome at her job, and her influence IMO vastly surpassed Miss Elizabeth’s. During this time frame, maybe a bit earlier, I was at a house show where Warrior and Savage were having a match and Sherri was in a skirt and loose shirt. During the match she jumped on Warrior’s back and her shirt was ripped off and SHE WAS FIGHTING IN HER BRA! AND SHE CONTINUED! This blew my WWF watching mind. You’d never see this on TV! How’d Jack Tunney allow this to happen? Warrior kind of flung her off his back and the match continued. But Sherri will always be the Woman who Fought in Her Bra in my mind. Also Hogan was in a match with Slaughter and he was in camo fatigues and tossed a smoke grenade thing in the ring that spit smoke into Slaughter’s face, blinding him for a moment. Hogan was always a heel.
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May 13, 2018 01:35
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Nystral posted:During this time frame, maybe a bit earlier, I was at a house show where Warrior and Savage were having a match and Sherri was in a skirt and loose shirt. During the match she jumped on Warrior’s back and her shirt was ripped off and SHE WAS FIGHTING IN HER BRA! AND SHE CONTINUED! This blew my WWF watching mind. You’d never see this on TV! How’d Jack Tunney allow this to happen? Warrior kind of flung her off his back and the match continued. But Sherri will always be the Woman who Fought in Her Bra in my mind. See, the bit that interests me is how the younger version of you reacted to this? What did young Nystral think of Sherri fighting in her bra? Did you respect it or did you dislike her? Thanks for your reply! Super interesting!
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May 13, 2018 01:40
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Nystral posted:
I thought I was the only one who couldn't think of her as just Elizabeth without feeling weird about it. She was always, and will always be, Miss Elizabeth. I actually realized I missed a Miss in my post after seeing yours.
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May 13, 2018 02:00
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I re watched the bit where Miss Elizabeth took off her skirt to distract the heels, and even though they were the bad guys they didn't really act lecherous. Bad guys being pervs would be in character but they pointedly didn't go that route. Instead they seemed to just be confused more than anything.
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May 13, 2018 03:44
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I liked how DiBiase and Jesse were gawking at Liz, and meanwhile Andre's just yelling at Jesse "Why aren't you counting the other team out"
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May 13, 2018 03:50
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Nystral posted:Also Hogan was in a match with Slaughter and he was in camo fatigues and tossed a smoke grenade thing in the ring that spit smoke into Slaughter’s face, blinding him for a moment. Hogan was always a heel. My guess is that Hogan was a heel for so long in his early career that he tailored his offense to one and never really changed even when he became the biggest babyface in the business. He always brawled and broke the rules when he could get away with it, no matter if he was face or heel. Very similar to Mick Foley and Steve Austin, actually.
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May 13, 2018 06:59
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Survivor Series 1991: Drink Every Time They Say 'This Tuesday In Texas' What I Think I Know
 It's Thanksgiving 1991, little Rarity is stealing a Lego motorbike from her school and across the Atlantic we return to a show as traditional for the season as cranberry sauce and arguing over the erasure of Native Americans, it's Survivor Series 1991! Unfortunately it appears that Vince McMahon has caught a throat virus because there's no shouty promo tonight. This means we're getting right into live from the Joe Louis Arena in Detroit, MI so named after the eponymous boxer who was World Heavyweight Champion for 12 years. And we thought Hulk Hogan's reigns were bad! Even though we only just got here we're jumping straight into a recap video of events from the previous weekend. Jake “The Snake” Roberts attacks Randy Savage in the middle of the ring and ties him up in the ropes. He reaches into his bag to produce a giant gently caress-off cobra and shoves it right into Savage's face. The cobra latches onto his arm and locks right on there. Holy poo poo, gently caress me. That looks legit as hell. Ow. This keeps going and going and OH MY GOD HE'S ACTUALLY BLEEDING. God drat Savage, what the gently caress is wrong with you that you'd put yourself through this?  No no no no no no no no no no no no no Elizabeth comes tearing out of the back to check in on her husband as Jake detaches the cobra. Piper comes over to help and is soon joined by a number of EMTs as well. But despite all these people wanting to look after his wellbeing all Savage wants to do is kick Jake's rear end. He keeps swinging his arms around but he's got no idea where Jake is and no energy and just collapses back down to the mat. Vince figures out that the snake must still be poisonous which means Savage is about three inches from death here. gently caress. The EMTs and Piper finally grab him and start rolling him out but he falls off the stretcher. At last everyone gets him properly settled and rushes him off to safety. If I was to ask you the question how do you follow up such high stakes drama and you were to answer with a smash cut to WWF President Jack Tunney then you would somehow be both right and dead wrong. The fans have been writing in asking for Savage's retirement to be overturned but he's not going to be wrestling on this show. Tunney takes responsibility for the cobra being at ringside which means hopefully he'll also accept the blame for Mr. Fuji. He's spoken to Jake who claims he thought the cobra had had the venom removed. I'd question Tunney falling for Jake's clear bullshit but this is a man who lets the heels screw around every single week so his job competence is clearly in doubt. However, he has made some important decisions on the back of this attack. Snakes are now banned from ringside for all WWF matches and Jake has been pulled from Survivor Series because he's now got a match against the reinstated Randy Savage at the next available opportunity. The date, Tuesday. The place, Texas. They should probably come up with a snappy phrase to help us remember that.  That tree in the background would do a better job as WWF President Well, that sure kicked off this PPV with a bang, didn't it? It was a nice change of pace from me trying to think of new things to say about a bunch of a midcarders that we've all seen a bunch of times before. Now I've always known about this angle/feud. It's infamous and probably Jake's most defining moment as a wrestler. Somehow everything I'd heard about it never conveyed how gruesome it really was because seeing it in context was really shocking. I've got loads of respect for Savage there for taking that bite and I'm really hype for this match that's coming up. Now when did they say that was gonna be? Now that we're done with that we're free to join our commentary team of Gorilla Monsoon and Bobby Heenan. Seeing that we're sticking with a two-man booth gives me a huge sigh of relief. They discuss this announcement from Tunney and Heenan reckons that Savage might be “terminated”. Guess which movie came out over the summer, folks. They turn their attention to the confrontation between Hulk and Taker and sure enough, it's going to be a WWF Title match. I'm legit excited for this. Ric Flair, Ted DiBiase, Evil Jacques and the Warlord w/ Curt Hennig, Sensational Sherri, Jimmy Hart and Harvey Wippelman vs. Rowdy Roddy Piper, Bret Hart, the British Bulldog and Virgil Strap in, friends. There's a whole lot to break down here before we even get to the bell. This could be a very interesting match because there's a wide range of talent here going from Bret all the way down to Virgil so I'm expecting this to fall somewhere between amazing and terrible. It's a shame that Hennig's been relegated to the sidelines though. I'm assuming that injury is still in the process of healing up. The heels make their way out first with most of them walking out to DiBiase's theme and oh my god, I don't think this segment has ever been more appropriate.  Jesus loving christ Sherri, what the hell are you doing? This look is a whole new level of hell. Ok, so at its core is actually a very nice black and gold cocktail dress that would be classy under other circumstances. However, Sherri has accessorised with a giant sparkly gold shawl all down one arm, a golden skullcap and a huge steak of gold just painted down the middle of her face. What the gently caress is this? You look like an alien.  Excuse me, let me get my sunglasses Also a special bonus What The gently caress Are You Wearing to the Warlord who's got himself some new ring-gear which I can only assume he appropriated from his side job of working as a podium dancer at a gay bar.  Let's start a war! Start a nuclear war! Now if you weren't distracted too much by the Warlord's new bondage gear you might have noticed from that he's got himself a new manager. I don't know too much about Harvey. He was just about hanging around for a couple of months when I first got into the WWF but he wasn't doing anything except getting clowned on in comedy segments so I don't know what he brings to the table. I don't even know how prominent he's going to be over the course of the decade. He doesn't do anything to speak of on this show so I don't have any opinions yet except for he's wearing a very snazzy hat. And of course he's not the only newbie making their debut here. quote:INTRODUCING...
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May 14, 2018 06:09
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You might notice that Ted Dibiase has his Million Dollar Championship back. If you're wondering how, that's a discussion better tabled for the next PPV. So 1991 WWF's continuing its habit of trying to drag its viewers with cliffhangers. As earlier posted in this thread, a segment filmed after Summerslam had Jake Roberts and Undertaker attack Savage and Elizabeth at the reception. Sid Justice showed up to scare them off and part of me wonders if this role was originally meant to go to the Ultimate Warrior. It certainly made plenty of sense. Regardless, the feud suddenly became Sid Justice and Hacksaw Jim Duggan vs. Undertaker and Jake Roberts. Hacksaw was soon dropped from the angle. Survivor Series was supposed to have a match featuring Sid's team vs. Jake's team, but there was another road bump. At a house show, Sid blew out a bicep. Suddenly, he was out of the match and immediately tried to start a campaign to get Randy Savage reinstated in order to replace him. Even though the injury was legit, it still would have made a million times more sense if Warrior was in this position. Also, had Sid not gotten injured, he would have been the victim of the snake bite. Tuesday in Texas is WWF taking their cliffhanger storytelling habit and trying to monetize it. Keep in mind, this came completely out of nowhere. There was no indication that there would be a DLC PPV until the opening moments of Survivor Series. It's an interesting experiment, but interesting doesn't mean it has to be good.
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May 14, 2018 07:17
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Fun fact, that cobra was (obviously) devenomized, but it really was biting the poo poo out of Randy's arm. No acting there! Also yeah, Perfect's back was hosed at this point, so he'll be doing other stuff for awhile DeathChicken fucked around with this message at 11:22 on May 14, 2018 |
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May 14, 2018 11:19
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Shiki Dan posted:Not to go into spoilers since you may still yet want to review WCW someday, but it's very interesting that in their WCW careers that Sherri and Elizabeth were allowed to be much more rounded and independent characters than they ever were in WWF (Elizabeth was even HEEL). Miss Elizabeth was never a well rounded character in WCW ever. The most promo time she ever got was on the episode of WCW Nitro where she basically accused Goldberg of sexual assault. neither was Sherri for that matter
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May 14, 2018 11:32
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This show is special for me because it was the first PPV I ever saw. My brother and I had started watching some time between SummerSlam and here. In retrospect, it's kind of baffling that my parents agreed to spend money on this (and many future PPVs over the next decade). Five-year-old me really did not know what to expect though. I knew that my dad had to pick up some kind of box from the cable company for us to watch it, and I knew it used something called "paper view", so I pictured us having to look into a cardboard box and watch paper cut-outs of the wrestlers fighting. I'm a little disappointed it wasn't that.
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May 14, 2018 11:32
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As someone who started watching wrestling in 1998, I still thought Ric Flair was great. Ric Flair was so good he tricked me into thinking Disco Inferno could be a good wrestler if he really tried.
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May 14, 2018 13:28
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I will say that if you aren't impressed with Flair in the next year of PPVs you're just being contrary to be contrary 
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May 14, 2018 13:38
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exploded mummy posted:Miss Elizabeth was never a well rounded character in WCW ever. The most promo time she ever got was on the episode of WCW Nitro where she basically accused Goldberg of sexual assault. I never said she was "well-rounded" but more rounded. She got plenty of promo-time (for better or for worse) when she was Flair's manager in his feud against Savage. Even if you only count that single episode of WCW Nitro that's she more promo time than she got in the better part of a decade in the WWF.
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May 14, 2018 14:20
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Takuan posted:As someone who started watching wrestling in 1998, I still thought Ric Flair was great. Ric Flair was so good he tricked me into thinking Disco Inferno could be a good wrestler if he really tried. Yeah, if you think Ric lost it before about 2005, you're basically saying all you care about is highspots and Jeff Hardy falling off something tall. And bear in mind, people were saying he was over the hill in like 1988, right before he had what was basically his best year EVER in-ring with the feuds with Steamboat and Funk.
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May 14, 2018 14:24
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Gaz-L posted:Yeah, if you think Ric lost it before about 2005, you're basically saying all you care about is highspots and Jeff Hardy falling off something tall. And bear in mind, people were saying he was over the hill in like 1988, right before he had what was basically his best year EVER in-ring with the feuds with Steamboat and Funk. I like Flair in the mid 2000s for what he is, but by that point he had really started to rely much more on his "Dirtiest Player in the Game" shtick and if you weren't already on board with Flair I can see not appreciating it as much.
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May 14, 2018 14:27
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The local gas station/convenience store had only a few wrestling VHS tapes in the late 90s. Summerslam 93, some Undertaker collection(a quick google suggests His Gravest matches), Wrestlemania X, and this. So for years, this was the oldest wrestling I'd ever seen. Loved it. I am really curious how this will bear out.
Xerzes fucked around with this message at 21:43 on May 14, 2018 |
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May 14, 2018 21:39
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Gavok posted:Survivor Series was supposed to have a match featuring Sid's team vs. Jake's team, but there was another road bump. At a house show, Sid blew out a bicep. Suddenly, he was out of the match and immediately tried to start a campaign to get Randy Savage reinstated in order to replace him. Even though the injury was legit, it still would have made a million times more sense if Warrior was in this position. Also, had Sid not gotten injured, he would have been the victim of the snake bite. This is interesting, I knew that Savage was there because Warrior had gone but I didn't realise Sid was also in the running for that spot. I think we're all very lucky that things turned out the way they did. Diabolik900 posted:Five-year-old me really did not know what to expect though. I knew that my dad had to pick up some kind of box from the cable company for us to watch it, and I knew it used something called "paper view", so I pictured us having to look into a cardboard box and watch paper cut-outs of the wrestlers fighting. I'm a little disappointed it wasn't that. This is the most adorable thing 
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May 14, 2018 21:48
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Diabolik900 posted:I pictured us having to look into a cardboard box and watch paper cut-outs of the wrestlers fighting. I'm a little disappointed it wasn't that. And now so am I.
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May 14, 2018 22:26
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