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DeathChicken posted:Luger's career is...uh, interesting. He was actually very good (I know, hard to believe) around 89 or 90 or so in WCW. Had a pretty great series of matches with Flair How much of that was Luger actually giving a poo poo for once vs the unavoidable result of being in the ring with Ric Flair in 89/90?
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Jul 22, 2018 20:26
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He was pretty good in 96 WCW, or at least very tolerable compared to the rest.
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Jul 22, 2018 20:52
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That'll be fun to discuss when Rarity gets to it and not before then!
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Jul 22, 2018 23:35
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That was a great match. With a lot of Hitman's opponents I usually think it's good despite them, but Piper was great too. Also, Hart did blade, but did a good job because it's really hard to tell when he did it, he apparently even avoided trouble with Vince for doing it.
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Jul 22, 2018 23:39
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Also yes, the WBF did do heel/face gimmicks. Hence GARY STRYDOM I'M A MAGICIAN The actual bodybuilding companies (as it were) duly made fun of them for this and it did not catch on
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Jul 23, 2018 00:17
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e) nm
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Jul 23, 2018 01:36
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I went back and rewatched WM 8 a few weeks back in preparation for Rarity's take on it. Been years since I last watched it, and it'd always been a bad show in my memory. I was pleasantly surprised to be somewhat wrong, and REALLY impressed with Hart/Piper.
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Jul 23, 2018 02:13
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Without spoiling anything, it is a good show. The good tends to be overshadowed by the bad, but I always enjoyed it.
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Jul 23, 2018 02:46
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Rarity posted:So that's the essay all finished but I'd really like to close this out by opening up a deeper discussion about this subject matter. I really want to hear from both male and female fans who were watching these shows as they aired. What did you think of Elizabeth and Sherri at the time? Do you agree with the analysis that they represent the Madonna-Whore Complex? Men, do you think the way Elizabeth and Sherri were represented has affected the way that you treat women? Women, do you think the way Elizabeth and Sherri were represented has affected the way you see yourself? People, I would love to hear your insights. So quite a few pages back but this poo poo is my jam so I want to chime in. I didn't really get into wrestling until 92/93 so this specific period was something I didn't have much direct connection to; the only time-accurate knowledge I had was a credit stinger from Maple Leaf Wrestling that I had recorded in preparation for catching the Rescue Rangers pilot. The stinger was basically just running down a Calgary house show but one thing I strongly remember (besides Vince screaming the name of THE ULTIMATE WARRIOR, which always gave him this mystique in my mind even though I never actually watched him until much later) was a shot of Randy & Sherri in full Macho King & Queen getup and I remember wondering "Who is that crazy lady?" And it wasn't crazy as in "oh she's nuts" but more "Wow, she's like nobody I've ever seen before". And again I didn't know her as a heel or a face I just knew that photo, that she was a queen and she had crazy makeup & outlandish clothing. And I thought she was the coolest woman on TV, just from that photo. I can't really make a fair claim on how Liz & Sherri affected how I treat women, I was raised by a feminist and a gay socialist and was surrounded by women for most of my life and was bombarded with mainstream gender norms for pretty much all of my formative years. I could probably give some credence to that memory of Sherri leading to some of my attitudes to drag & kink (although I personally give Blakes 7 more credit for that), but I definitely think there's weight to that question.
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Jul 23, 2018 06:28
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Touching on the Sherri thing for a moment. Sherri, in my childhood mind fueled by a steady diet of Disney VHS tapes, was the EVIL QUEEN personified and Miss Elizabeth was Snow White. Snow White was reactive, things happened TO her. Miss Elizabeth, as I remember her twenty-five to thirty years on, was much the same way. She was “reason” that the MegaPowers exploded because she was hurt in the match. But Sherri was mixing things up in the ring with the wrestlers. She instigated, prodded, and set the tone for future valets and their level of involvement in matches. While little me Miss Elizabeth > Sherri, now I know that Sheri >>>>>>> Miss Elizabeth. What I’m saying is that Sherri is awesome.
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Jul 23, 2018 23:52
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Also her part in this wonderful, wonderful promo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svjs-W60voU
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Jul 24, 2018 00:26
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Sherri never came across as overtly sexual to me. As a kid, it was like "She's a bad guy so she'd hang out with other bad guys and cheat and be a jerk about it." God, even as a kid I loved the heels.
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Jul 24, 2018 00:58
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The only babyface I ever really cheered for was Bret Hart, the heels always seemed funnier to me.
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Jul 24, 2018 03:24
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Jason Sextro posted:The only babyface I ever really cheered for was Bret Hart, the heels always seemed funnier to me. Edit gently caress forgot what thread I was posting in and spoilered *2nd edit* I'm fully with you there and Bret was one of the very few babyfaces I ever really "Bought"; even when he was heel with the Foundation I liked him because it felt like he really embodied the whole Ventura ethos of "Win if you can, lose if you must and always cheat"; I believed in his passion and when he DID play dirty I would think "Well, boo, but I see what you did there and I can't blame you". TBF this was in retrospect as I never really saw Bret in his Hart Foundation heel persona at the time, but even much later my teenaged cynicism dug the character he portrayed. Renaissance Spam fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Jul 24, 2018 |
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Jul 24, 2018 05:42
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Renaissance Spam posted:Edit gently caress forgot what thread I was posting in and spoilered Also Brett had like 4 different groin attacks that he did all the time, regardless of if he was a face or heel. They'd always call them "midsection" attacks but they always hit the groin and the victim always acted like it was a nut shot so...
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Jul 24, 2018 12:55
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Luger's able to have good main event matches in late 80's WCW. Luger's also able to be freakin hilarious as the heel best friend and tag partner of babyface Sting in the mid 90s. He's lovely, but he's one of my boys. When I was a kid he got in my face during a match with Brian Pillman. He told me to sit down or my mama was next. I sat down. Somebody fucked around with this message at 07:50 on Jul 28, 2018 |
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Jul 28, 2018 06:46
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We cross over to the back where the Mountie is hanging with the Nasty Boys. He's been talking to the police and they say that there's no better place than Indianapolis to serve hard time. Perhaps he should give it a go then and do a compare and contrast. Repo Man bursts in like he's being chased (which in all likelihood he is) and calls this “the biggest repossession of any Wrestlemania”. Sags says that the Mountie will electrify their opponents and Repo Man will be “towing away the carcasses” and then Knobbs starts screaming and waving his arms around like a maniac. I can't even begin to work out what he was trying to say there. Elsewhere we join their opponents for their promo and this is the most ramshackle, arbitrary grouping of wrestlers I've seen outside of Survivor Series. Sgt. Slaughter tells the Boys that they will be “slaughterised” and Big Bossman warns them to “eat your last meal and say goodbye to all your friends”. Bit harsh there, it's a wrestling match not the death penalty. Virgil is also on this team and is wearing a bright white face mask, presumably to hide his shame. He says that his nose will be protected tonight but he wants to know who will be protecting their noses. Ahahahaha. If anyone ever wants to know why Virgil never got over I think we can just point to this line right here. You're gonna hurt their noses? I bet they're real loving scared of that. Hacksaw Jim Duggan closes up by warning us we won't see any great wrestling in this one. Yeah, it's got you and Slaughter and Boys in it so no loving kidding.  Virgil looks like the world's shittiest superhero The Mountie, The Nasty Boys and Repo Man w/ Jimmy Hart vs. Sgt. Slaughter, Big Bossman, Hacksaw Jim Duggan and Virgil Oh look, here's the 'bung all our random midcarders together so they can get a pay day' match. This is the kind of world we had to live in before Andre Battle Royales. As if to prove how pointless this match is we start out with everybody already in the ring. You get a jobber entrance! And you get a jobber entrance! Everyone gets a jobber entrance! And because this is Wrestlemania we need to fit in a celebrity somewhere so here's Ray Combs, the host of Family Feud, to do some ring introductions. Combs take the mic and starts to speak and oh god, he's doing a promo. Being the host of Family Feud Combs is no stranger to feuds but there's no survey that can tell us who will win this one. Dude, it's a throwaway Wrestlemania match. The faces are walking it. But despite Combs having less awareness than your average PSP poster he has surveyed the crowd to describe each wrestler and proceeds to slam the heels. The Mountie oesn't know the meaning of the word fear and a lot of other words as well and he also does the work of three men, the Three Stooges. Nobody can call Repo Man two faced because if he was “he'd darn sure be wearing the other one right now”. As for the Boys they're “two men sharing one brain” and their success can be defined by one word: “lucky”. But that's not how you spell nepotism! And then there's one other insult about Repo Man which really stands out. MOST OFFENSIVE COMMENT Ray Combs: “His parents were disappointed when they first saw him, they were hoping for a boy” Aw geez, where do I begin with this one? For starters, there's the baseline implication that girls aren't as good as boys which right off the back is awful to a whole entire gender not to mention all the other genders which aren't boys. Then there's the attempts to emasculate Repo Man to insinuate he is less of a man which continues our cultural fetishisation of strength and toughness as masculine traits. We do not shame men for showing vulnerability or empathy. This right here is what we in the business call toxic masculinity. All the heels rush for Combs and I can't really blame them after this but the faces go after them and he scarpers from the ring.  Uh oh, somebody stole 4/5s of Combs's body! The faces take control with a quadruple clothesline to the heels and then focus their attentions on Repo Man. Meanwhile, on commentary Heenan would rather talk about anything else other than this match so he shills the upcoming WBF PPV and then announces that Shawn has left the building. Thanks for the update! The match settles down as Hacksaw starts playing to the crowd which gives Sags the chance to get him from behind. Slaughter nails a gutbuster on Knobbs and Bossman follows up with a big boot. This sends Knobbs over to the corner to tag in Repo Man. Oooh! You may remember during the last PPV I said I wanted a Bossman/Repo Man feud and this might not be a proper one but at least we're getting a little something-something. Bossman goes for a splash but he whiffs it, allowing Repo Man to take control. He works over Bossman's back by jumping dick first on top of him twice but when he goes for a third attempt Bossman rolls over with his fist raised and Repo Man crunches his balls against it. Owwwww. Somewhere in the world a young Shinsuke Nakamura feels an uncontrollable rush of pleasure. See, these two combine together so well! Please please please can we have a feud? And if not that I'll settle for fifteen minutes of Bossman chasing Repo Man around the ring to the sounds of Benny Hill.  Never not posting dickshot pics Not So Super Virgil connects with a dropkick but Repo Man responds with a back suplex. Sags follows up with a pump handle slam, which is a move I've always had a lot of time for. The Mountie goes up to the second rope but Bossman comes into the ring to catch him into an awkward spinebuster. It was like he caught him and then hit the move instead of pulling it off in one fluid motion. Everyone realises that they're out of time so the match arbitrarily breaks down. Sags unmasks Virgil to reveal his Even Less Super secret identity and tries to smack him with it but Virgil ducks and Sags takes out Knobbs instead to give the faces the win. Meh, whatever. This was a completely pointless match with a completely pointless ending that did nothing for nobody except Ray Combs. I guess I'm glad that the three guys involved that I like got a payday out of it.  Although that payday didn't do a whole lot for Virgil, did it? Addendum: Yet another farewell to get through here as Sgt. Slaughter is done with his regular run. I know enough to know that he'll still show up every now and again but by the sounds of things he's done as a full time guy. I feel like Slaughter really benefited from being in the right place at the right time to get a big push from the Iraqi sympathiser angle that he never really deserved. Yes, it did have bite to it but he couldn't hold it up in the ring. Since turning back into a face he's been very irrelevant and with Hacksaw around we don't need another guy playing on the USA for the cheap heat. To be fair, I'd rather have kept Slaughter than Hacksaw but it's probably for the best that we dumped at least one of them.
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Jul 29, 2018 09:09
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As random as these teams were, Duggan and Slaughter were a tag team at the time. They were, as one would guess, awful. And I think Virgil’s nose was broken by Sid on Superstars a few weeks before this, hence the lovely mask.
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Jul 29, 2018 11:20
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I have it on decent authority it was broken by Asuka No, it was Sid winning a squash over Virgil, then throwing him facefirst into an exposed turnbuckle, then Randy Orton kicking him in the face. And yelling "This is what happens when you stick your nose in my business!" Sid loving RULED
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Jul 29, 2018 15:07
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DeathChicken posted:then Randy Orton kicking him in the face Virgil so lovely he jobbing to two year olds
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Jul 29, 2018 15:15
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It's even better than I remembered. Sid wins a squash against some other jobber, proceeds to helpfully try and save the life of the jobber he just killed. Virgil interrupts, proceeds to job on a run-in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1i_4OXxaV0
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Jul 29, 2018 16:29
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DeathChicken posted:It's even better than I remembered. Sid wins a squash against some other jobber, proceeds to helpfully try and save the life of the jobber he just killed. Virgil interrupts, proceeds to job on a run-in That's a meta-job right there.
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Aug 5, 2018 16:29
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In the back we find Mooney waiting with Ric Flair and Curt Hennig who is holding on the poster of Elizabeth that they've prepared. Hennig says that they've taken out all the flaws so “she's as close to perfect as she's gonna get”. Dammit Curt, don't you get that the fashion industry's obsession with Photoshop has set unrealistic standards for female beauty that has had an adverse effect on women's mental health? Flair calls this poster the real deal and tells Savage that after he's been beaten he shoulder look to the big screen to see Hennig showing off Elizabeth's picture. He adds that after this Elizabeth has got “one less shot at Space Mountain”. I assume that Flair terms having sex with him as Space Mountain because it's an experience that's over far too soon with a strong likelihood you'll lose your lunch. We jump over to Zombie Mean Gene who is outside Randy Savage's dressing room but there's no sign of Savage. Zombie Mean Gene explains that Savage isn't doing any interviews and puts forward a few suggestions for his motivation. He might be focused on regaining Elizabeth's honour or he might be confused by the idea of her centrefold appearing on the big screen. I don't get why that last concept would be so hard for him to wrap his head around. There's a big screen, a sexy poster of Elizabeth gets shown on it, this isn't exactly complicated here. WWF Title Match Randy Savage vs. Ric Flair w/ Curt Hennig So for the second year in a row Savage gets screwed out of the main event spot that should have been his. I was down with the idea of Savage/Warrior getting the top spot last year when that was non-title so this isn't the issue here. The fact is that Sid hasn't got any real credentials yet and the angle between him and Hulk isn't exactly strong whereas here you have two of the biggest names of the era facing off for the first time. Even though I've been pretty down on Flair even I'll say he should have got the nod on this one. And speaking of Flair, there is lots of pressure on him here to impress me. Sure, he was good in the Rumble but that's a whole different affair to a high-profile singles match and he's in the ring with Savage who we know can pull off an amazing match. So this is Flair's big chance to win me over. MOST INCORRECT PREDICTION Bobby Heenan: “Flair is not a quitter and he's too good to be pinned”  I'm sorry, I barely tolerate you As Flair walks down to the ring Heenan says that Flair wants to see “the staplemarks on his stomach from the centrefold”. The hell? What, is he rubbing the poster over his dick? Flair, you're doing masturbation wrong. Savage comes out in a killer black and gold outfit that is one of his best ever. A lot of the time there's so much going on with his gear that he looks TV static but this one looks proper classy. Savage tears it down to the ring in that way that I totally love and chases Flair back down the entrance. Now this is how you do intensity. Hennig grabs Savage and drags him off Flair over to the ring so the match can get underway but Savage quickly regains the upper hand and beats on Flair in the corner. Flair tries to bring him out with a Manhattan drop but Savage dodges and connects with a clothesline. Flair replies with a back body drop on Savage to the outside and follows with a series of stiff chops. Meanwhile, Heenan adds some important context by explaining that Elizabeth isn't a stranger to the most magical place on earth, if you get my drift. Flair took a trip down the Tunnel of Love. Look, I'm trying to say they had sex.  I imagine it looked a lot like this I'm not sure exactly how the timeline is meant to work out here. I know that even in the territory days the wrestling world was very incestuous but Elizabeth has been part of the WWF for a good six years now and I don't know how old she is but that can't leave that much time free after being a minor. Flair hits a stalling suplex then follows up with a back suplex. Sadly after that hot initial burst this match has settled into being fairly average. Flair's just not exciting me on offence. He takes Savage to the outside for a while then back in the ring he nails another stalling suplex. All the moves he does he does do very well but he doesn't have much of a moveset so when he's in control like this it all looks the same. Flair keeps coming with some more chops but Savage finally starts fighting back and responds with a neckbreaker. Flair tries going up top but just as the sun rises each day he gets caught by Savage and hurled off to the mat. He tries to beg off but Savage is so done with his bullshit and spits at him. Eww, whole lot of saliva on display on this show. Savage whips Flair into the corner so he flips over onto the apron and runs over to climb the other turnbuckle but as he comes off Savage catches him with a clothesline. Ok, that was a neat little moment. Savage connects with a double axe handle to the outside and oh look, Flair's gone and bladed. His face goes from clear and crimson in five seconds flat.  Just your typical Sunday night in the Flair household The action continues on the outside as Savage hits a suplex on the covering then brings Flair back in the ring to nail another double axe handle. The fans have been losing it this whole time as well, they are so into this. Savage goes up top and connects with Flying Elbow Drop but Hennig drags him off of the cover! Savage and Hennig start arguing so the ref interjects himself between the two to break them up but they keep on pushing and pulling at each other and the ref winds up smushed and drops to the mat. Uh oh, you know what means... ~*SHENANIGANS*~ Hennig pulls out some brass knucks and throws them over Flair. He puts them on and takes out Savage with a full punch with the knucks and Savage collapses to mat. Flair quickly passes the knucks back to Hennig and gets into the cover but Savage kicks out! The crowd is red loving hot now and I don't blame them, this is getting good now. Flair argues with the ref about the count but this is really just to keep him distracted so that Hennig can get a chair and jab Savage in the leg with it. Things look bad for our hero but wait...  IT'S ELIZABETH! Elizabeth runs down to ringside and grabs the ringbell and blasts Hennig with it and blasts Flair with it and does a crotchchop then nails him with the X Factor and ok I made all that up. She comes down to ringside and just watches the match but come on, that woulda been awesome. Meanwhile, Flair's working over Savage's damaged leg and he applies the Figure 4 for a long rear end time. Savage is in agony but Elizabeth is cheering him on and he starts to fight it. He tries to roll Flair over so Flair reaches out to Hennig to keep him stable but the ref spots and kicks Hennig's hand away and Savage finally rolls it through so Flair breaks the hold. Flair keeps on working over the leg but then from outta nowhere Savage finds a flash rollup and gets the victory! As soon as the bell rings Flair and Hennig are fuming. Flair gets all up in Elizabeth's grill as he yells at her and then he forces a kiss on her because in the world of the WWF this is apparently just what you do when you're mad at a woman. Except Elizabeth ain't taking any poo poo and starts slapping Flair around like a total boss. gently caress yeah, girl! You an independent woman, yo! Savage quickly rushes over as well to take over the attack as officials flood out from the back to break everything up. Flair and Hennig retreat to the back leaving Savage and Elizabeth to celebrate with the fans WITH A WHOLE BUNCH OF PYRO!  Actually the guy in the front row is just firing up the BBQ Aww, hurray. I'm so happy for Savage. I know that he's already had a run at the top but that whole time he was playing second fiddle to Hulk and it never really got to be about him. So I'm really glad that he gets to have another title reign where he's allowed to be the focus. And sure, he's still playing second fiddle to Hulk tonight and you can argue whether that was the right or wrong call but the point for me is that he's got his own story. He gets to be the protagonist this time and that's what matters most. As for the match it was fairly good overall thanks to that blistering ending but before Savage's comeback it was really dull. I guess what you're all going to want to know is my final verdict on Flair. Well, he was competent. He did the stuff that was expected of him but he didn't do anything special to standout and I feel the excitement in this match came from Savage's side. I suppose looking at Flair here I can see how five years ago he would have been a standout talent but at this point he's already being outpaced by younger stars and we've got another fifteen years of his career to go.
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Aug 5, 2018 16:41
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Another problem being with this format, you're skipping over a lot of the really cool matches Flair had as champ, vs Tito, vs Piper, etc Then again you didn't like Tito or Piper either, so maybe not
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Aug 5, 2018 17:38
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Flair and Savage had a total difference on how the two liked working matches. Savage liked his matches plotted out to an obsessive degree. Flair was much more spontaneous. The approaches worked for each, but you can see how it might clash. Also, Flair got fined for the blade job in this match.
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Aug 5, 2018 18:46
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Rarity posted:Meanwhile, Heenan adds some important context by explaining that Elizabeth isn't a stranger to the most magical place on earth, if you get my drift. Flair took a trip down the Tunnel of Love. Look, I'm trying to say they had sex. There was a weird little subplot in this feud where Flair claimed that he and Elizabeth were an item before she met Savage and even revealed a bunch of old photos of them together, which were published in WWF Magazine. Eventually, it came to light that these were doctored as not only did Savage and Elizabeth have the originals that showed Savage in Flair's spot, but even in one of the Flair photos you could see a VHS copy of WrestleMania IV in the background. "Ric Flair mastered Photoshop" is a hell of a wrestling angle.
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Aug 5, 2018 19:04
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I think Rarity's explanation of Flair/Savage more or less says why Hogan/Flair didn't happen here. Take out "Being Ric Flair" since that clearly didn't matter to WWF audiences and what did he have to offer as a main event heel to WWF fans?
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Aug 5, 2018 19:46
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rare Magic card l00k posted:I think Rarity's explanation of Flair/Savage more or less says why Hogan/Flair didn't happen here. Take out "Being Ric Flair" since that clearly didn't matter to WWF audiences and what did he have to offer as a main event heel to WWF fans? I'd argue that it's less that 'being Ric Flair' didn't matter to WWE audience, and more that it didn't matter to Vince, at least in any way that wasn't just making sure WCW didn't have Ric Flair. Flair in WCW and JCP was always the centrepiece. The guy who was clearly the top of the heap when he was champion, the guy all the babyfaces were chasing. In WWE, Vince has never really liked the notion of the dominant heel, which makes sense because the company was built on Bruno and Hogan as unstoppable superheroes. So Flair, even if he's the champ, can't be the guy getting all the promo time and driving the stories, because he's a bad guy.
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Aug 5, 2018 20:51
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Not to mention the way to promote Flair as being a draw is to build up his run in WCW/NWA and Vince wasn't going to do that even if he had the Belt.
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Aug 5, 2018 21:24
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In the back we find Mooney with Flair and Hennig for some post-match thoughts. Hennig is mad and immediately yells “shut up, Mooney” when he tries to ask a question. Hehe, in an ever changing world the abuse of Mooney is a reassuring constant. Hennig wonders what it is that makes Savage macho and claims that he was holding onto Flair's tights when he won with Heenan rushing in to back up this claim. Flair knows that Savage will now be claiming to be the real world champion as well as “the love of that jezebel Elizabeth”. However, Flair says “we don't cry over spilt milk” and starts to prep his team because Savage “did it once, now let's see you do it again”. Now this is loving cool. When was the last time you saw a heel in WWE not make excuses for a big loss? I love it. Having been given the suitable kick up the bum he needs Hennig turns his attention the future and tells Savage that one time means nothing because “like your old lady, you're gonna be damaged goods”. Mooney shows a clip of the end of the match and holy poo poo, they are totally right! Savage stole it! Wow, ok. I really like this, the lines in the face-heel dynamic here are so blurred that Robin Thicke is touching up girls all over them. Flair is going to challenge Savage for the title again and next time he'll beat him and “every time I see your old lady I'm gonna kiss her on those moist, wet lips”. Eww. This is not the place for subtle sex references. I really do like Flair's promo style though. He carries himself like an absolute badass. That said, what the gently caress happened to all this centrefold business? They were pushing it all night long and now the match is over they've completely forgotten about it. I know that wrestling is notorious for dropped storylines but it normally doesn't happen mid-show.  #Justice4Flair Meanwhile, Zombie Mean Gene is with Savage and Elizabeth to get their take on this result. Savage doesn't give a poo poo about the questionable victory because he got “a piece” of Flair and says the belt “is what makes you tick”. Savage isn't finished with Flair because he wants all of him. He's now more mad at him than he was before the match and he's going to take the rest of him no matter where it is. Zombie Mean Gene asks Elizabeth if she feels vindicated by this result but Savage slips further into his heelish ways by refusing to let her speak. He gives the belt and sends her away then makes a fist for Flair and warns him again that he'll have all of him next time. Great promo from Savage as well, his acting was really on point. It's really interesting what they're doing here cause they clearly don't intend for Savage to be the bad guy but adding these shades of grey makes things feel more genuine. MOST HOMOEROTIC MOMENT Randy Savage: “I want the whole Flair package” Addendum: Oh boy, another goodbye to talk about and this is an absolutely huge one. It turns out when Savage told Elizabeth to go look after the belt she took it to heart because this is the last time we're going to be seeing her. In reality she was done with life on the road so decided to stay home and just a few months later she and Savage would sadly be divorced. drat, if that doesn't signify an ending then I don't know what does. Which means this is the time to give her some mad props. Savage was always going to be a star but his partnership with Elizabeth really blew him up into the stratosphere. In the early days she did such a great job of subtly adding heat to his matches from her reactions at ringside and when it was called on her to step up for the big moments she always played her role to perfection. Sure, she was never asked to do too much but she was just the right fit for this Madonna role. I'm so glad she came back for her appearances over the last year because it meant we got to see resolution to the romantic tension that had been on the bubble for so long. At a time when women were very much shoved to the sidelines she had the presence to really stand out. However, this does also feel like the right time for her to go. We've pretty much mined all the storylines we can from this relationship and if she were to stick around we would inevitably get to some godawful soapy poo poo that nobody would enjoy. As this is essentially serving as our interlude of the evening we get a recap video for Hulk Hogan and Sid Justice. At the WM8 press conference Jack Tunney presents the tablet on which the #1 contender for the WWF title is permanently etched as Hulk which enrages Sid so much that after the event he describes this decision as “bogus”. Hulk and Sid team up in a match against Flair and Taker but Sid abandons him just like every other one of his friends. You know, when one of your friendships goes bad that's unfortunate. If all your friendships go bad then it probably means you're doing friendship wrong. Sid appears on the Barbershop and threatens Burtus in an attempt to draw out Hulk but when he doesn't show Sid just wrecks the set instead. Sid destroys a whole load of jobbers and also Virgil, although there's no real need to make that distinction. He even sends one that's on a stretcher hurtling back down into the side of the ring, which looks painful as gently caress. And that's your build. It's a bit like Vince found one of his generic TEW storylines and just put Sid in the empty slot.  When you guys said Vince jacks off over big muscly men I didn't think you meant it literally We return to the ring where... what the gently caress? There's a whole load of Native Americans in the ring and they are fully decked out in tribal regalia and they're whooping and dancing and they've got drums and I have no clue what the hell is going on but it's still a better musical performance than Run DMC at WM5. Then Gino pipes in and explains that these guys are the Lopi tribe who are here to welcome the appearance of their kin, Tatanka. Well what do you know? loving Tatanka! In the back we find Mooney with Rick Martel, who is finally back in business properly. Mooney tells him that Tatanka plans to make tonight his last stand but Martel has some reservations. Not as many as the Native Americans, I'm guessing! (Man, I sure lost a whole load of credibility with that last joke, didn't I?) Martel knocks the Native Americans for their lack of class and style and says he'll need to “disinfect” the ring afterwards. loving hell! There might not even be a match tonight anyway because he heard Tatanka was out “scalping tickets”. For gently caress sake. Well, that was offensive as hell. Rick Martel vs. Tatanka quote:INTRODUCING... Oh boy, it's Tatanka time. Yeah, I'm really not optimistic about how this gimmick is going to turn out. We all saw what happened with Tony Atlas. There is no way that Vince could go about this without mocking stereotypes somewhere along the line. I'm willing to go into this with an open mind and I'm not knocking the use of his tribemates here because they were presented respectfully but... yeah. I don't think this match is going to be that great either cause while I love Martel I've never heard talk of Tatanka's ringwork so I assume it's bad. At least we get Martel back in action properly though. He comes out smirking and he's got the atomiser and this has been way too long. When Tatanka comes out we get our first chance to check out his theme which has one of the most obnoxious stingers ever. I get that it's cultural and it's fair enough but the high-pitched screeching really hurts my ears. The rest of theme's all right although it does sound a bit video gamey and isn't as Native American influenced as I'd expect. What I do really like though is Tatanka's look. He's got a traditional leather shawl and braided wristbands and it looks different to anyone else while being very much what a Native American would wear to wrestle. WORST HAIR  Ok, maybe not quite all of his look We get underway as the rest of his tribemates stomp their way to the back which is a little bit rude. You'd think if they made the effort to turn up they could at least stay for the match. What, did they leave a buffalo on the cookfire or something? Tatanka and Martel square off and hang on, why does it look like Tatanka's wearing a thong? His tights are patterned in a highly unfortunate manner and I don't think that's based on any Native American style. Tatanka connects with a hiptoss while over on commentary Gino and Heenan are far too busy arguing about Flair to call the match. This wouldn't have happened if that match had main evented like it should have. Martel goes running at Tatanka at the corner but he winds driving his shoulder right into the ringpost. Heenan has decided to start talking about the current match but he does by calling the calling the Lopi tribe the “Lumpy” tribe. Um, perhaps you should go back to talking about Flair. Martel goes for a hiptoss but it gets blocked so he just slams Tatanka down instead. Very smart. He follows with a backbreaker and goes up top but Tatanka catches him on the ropes and he crotches himself. Tatanka hits a tomahawk chop and then a crossbody and... wins? Seriously? Man, poor Martel. It's not so much that he jobbed Tatanka, it's jobbing to a crossbody that gets me.  Tatanka's hugs were somewhat overzealous Despite only being a short match I was pleasantly surprised by this. Tatanka had more going on in the ring than I was expecting. I always figured he'd be like your generic slow brawler but he looked like he could fit in all right with the greater technical focus that's slowly starting to infuse the roster. Martel didn't get a whole lot to do here and I'm really hoping this isn't him being shoved back down the card to a jobber role. He's way better than that and could have really taken off after WM7 but that massive disappearance last year has really killed his momentum.
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Aug 10, 2018 04:50
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Actually, it's the LUMBEE tribe  and to their credit, Tatanka actually is a genuine 100% Lumbee Indian, which already distinguishes him from a load of previous Native American gimmicks--especially Chief Jay Strongbow and Wahoo McDaniel--who, uh, generally weren't actually Native Americans at all.Also, something I didn't notice until now...Tatanka's outfit does generally represent the colors of the Lumbee logo: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...na_logo.svg.png Shiki Dan fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Aug 10, 2018 |
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Aug 10, 2018 05:52
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Wahoo apparently was Native, although I guess it depends on who you talk to, but Chief Jay was 100% not.
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Aug 10, 2018 16:32
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So, haven't posted in this thread at all I don't think, but I've been enjoying reading it. My first exposure to Pro Wrestling was WWF on tv (probably Superstars, I can't remember as I was probably no older than 6 or 7 at the time) and seeing Tatanka in a match. My memories of everything else on that show are really cluttered including Ric Flair bleeding a ton in a match and cutting a promo so i'm not sure if that was like a PPV recap or what. But Tatanka was what stuck out, also Macho Man Randy Savage. It was cool to see Tatanka come back in 2006 right as I was getting back into watching Pro Wrestling but then he got into a really dumb storyline and was gone soon after (I want to go into details on it but not sure if that violates spoiler rules).
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Aug 10, 2018 16:42
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Jason Sextro posted:Wahoo apparently was Native, although I guess it depends on who you talk to, but Chief Jay was 100% not. Wahoo was also approximately 5000 times better a wrestler than Chief Jay Strongbow
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Aug 10, 2018 16:55
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Yeah I never saw either of them, but I've heard a lot more praise for Wahoo, and it seems difficult to find people who liked Strongbow.
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Aug 10, 2018 16:56
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I think Wahoo is one of those guys like Greg Valentine who gets hurt by their peak period mostly not being on tape.
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Aug 10, 2018 16:57
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Shiki Dan posted:Actually, it's the LUMBEE tribe The Lumbee are weird because they're technically recognized as a Native American tribe, but don't have any of the rights or entitlements of other recognized Native American Tribes. The group of people now calling themselves Lumbee tried and failed to seek recognition as a tribe several times going back to the 1800s, each time claiming to be descended from a different tribe, and eventually gave themselves the name Lumbee in the 1950s. Genetic testing has shown most Lumbee have very little Native DNA, and are mostly a varied mix of African and European.The current leading theory is that people currently identifying as Lumbee are a mishmash of multiple Native tribes, escaped Africans, and displaced Europeans that coalesced around the Lumber River in the mid-1700s.
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Aug 10, 2018 17:35
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Bittersweet story about the whole Tatanka thing: Originally they were going to use a Canadian wrestler named Sunny War Cloud, but he had a pretty severe coke problem and he chose rehab over going on the road. It probably saved his life, but it cost him his deal.
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Aug 10, 2018 19:40
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Angry_Ed posted:So, haven't posted in this thread at all I don't think, but I've been enjoying reading it. My first exposure to Pro Wrestling was WWF on tv (probably Superstars, I can't remember as I was probably no older than 6 or 7 at the time) and seeing Tatanka in a match. My memories of everything else on that show are really cluttered including Ric Flair bleeding a ton in a match and cutting a promo so i'm not sure if that was like a PPV recap or what. But Tatanka was what stuck out, also Macho Man Randy Savage. for the Nature Boy, losing a buttload of blood and cutting promos was/is an average Tuesday  also, the mat in that first picture is a veritable Jackson Pollock of appallingly gross stains
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Aug 10, 2018 21:52
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Some added context for WrestleMania 8's double main event. The lead-up to Royal Rumble '92 was great because it played up how there were so many options for who could be the next champion. Similarly, the aftermath was about how much potential there was in who could be #1 contender. In another era, they would have done a tournament or Fatal 5-Way, but here they simply pointed out that there was no clear-cut challenger for Flair on the way to WrestleMania. In fact, remember that silly Randy Savage/Warrior Royal Rumble comic I posted earlier in the thread? The same issue had a short story about the moments after Flair's Rumble win, where potential challengers were giving him due warning and Heenan and Perfect had to talk to Flair about how he had a massive target on his back. Not even just for the usual suspects, but even for the younger wrestlers like that Michaels kid. Of course, this comic made zero mention of Hogan because, you know... WWF put together a 900 number where fans could vote for who they thought Flair should face. Young Gavok convinced his mom to let him call in and she wasn't amused to see that he voted for the Undertaker. Then again, I wanted to see how Flair could cheat his way out of that situation. I don't know if the number was supposed to kayfabe decide who the #1 contender would be, but I wonder if they looked at Undertaker's votes as a decider on whether or not to turn him. Hogan won and Sid Justice was Sid Justifiably pissed off because, honestly, he did make the most sense. Sid ended up apologizing for his actions and befriended Hogan again. What you didn't see in-between Sid's freakout and him leaving Hogan high and dry on SNME was the promo the two did prior to the match. It basically went like this: Hogan: YOU KNOW, MEAN GENE, RIC FLAIR AND THE UNDERTAKER ARE BITING OFF MORE THAN THEY CAN CHEW BECAUSE THEY'RE UP AGAINST THE 24-INCH PYTHONS, BROTHER! TONIGHT, THE TWO OF THEM ARE GOING TO SEE THAT THE RED AND YELLOW ARE A FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH! Mean Gene: What do you think, Sid? Sid: Tonight, what you have to understand is-- Hogan: THERE'S NOTHING THAT RIC FLAIR AND THE UNDERTAKER HAVE THAT WE CAN'T COUNTER! HULKAMANIA IS THE MOST UNSTOPPABLE FORCE IN THE UNIVERSE AND NEITHER THE SO-CALLED REAL WORLD'S CHAMPION OR THAT BIG STINKY ZOMBIE WILL BE LEFT STANDING! Sid: Right, and-- Hogan: WHAT'CHA GONNA DO, RIC FLAIR?! WHAT'CHA GONNA DO, UNDERTAKER?! WHAT'CHA GONNA DO WHEN HULKAMANIA RUNS WILD ON YOU?! *Hogan runs off* Sid: ...... For real, this angle did Hogan zero favors in making him come off as a face worth cheering. Sid left Hogan to get beat up (Hogan ended up fine) and then busted up Brutus Beefcake's barbershop. As a build to a match, that would usually be passable, but Hogan gave up his WrestleMania title match for this! He decided that fighting Sid was more important than 1) challenging for the championship and 2) getting revenge on the guy who cost him the championship twice over! Jack Tunney shrugged his shoulders and decided, "Whatever, Savage has nothing going on. Make him #1 contender by default." And that's how we got Savage vs. Flair.
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Aug 11, 2018 00:51
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