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Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


G. Gordon Liddy and Herb are your first indicators that Vince McMahon is eternally a mark for any kind of rub from anyone with anything remotely resembling mainstream press.
Thankfully, Wrestlemania would get a bit better about using celebrities.....until the mid-2000s when it would then get worse. Much worse.

Wasn't the New York portion of the show the one where the crowd got extremely pissed and demanded refunds?
I would too, if I paid a full price ticket to see these 4 garbage matches and then had to sit on my hands & watch everything else on a monitor.

Shiki Dan fucked around with this message at Jul 31, 2017 around 23:30

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Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


Fun fact: The WM2 Battle Royal features 5 (W)WWF World Champions, which isn't a bad ratio especially considering the amount of NFL Players, and freaking TED ARCIDI.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


That Six-man tag is one of the prime examples of what should be an awesome match ruined by poo poo booking at the end.

Danny Davis gets DESTROYED by Davey Boy (including the first Tombstone Piledriver on WWF PPV) and then pops up and no-sells it 30 seconds later for the gently caress finish.
At least have him sell cold the finish and have someone drape him over for the pin!

The other really annoying thing is that heels are forced to almost always cheat to win because only the jobbiest of jobbers lose clean when they're a babyface.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


Interesting--I knew Tama was Rikishi's brother but had no idea they were twins.
Especially interesting given that Rikishi ended with twin sons himself.

But really, we should just post this family tree every time:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anoa%CA%BBi_family

Shiki Dan fucked around with this message at Jan 17, 2018 around 21:24

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


To me the 1st Survivor Series holds up fairly well even today; a lot better than even most of the other Survivor Series.
The 1st match is solid and very well booked, the Women's match is good once the dead weight is shifted out early and the JBA can cut loose.
The tag match is definitely the worst, since there's essentially no story or flow to the match--of course directly related to fact that you're dealing with 20 guys rather than 10.
I can kinda see that in the end they were trying to go with the "underdog" upset angle with the Killer Stallions scoring cheap flukes over the former champs and the Islanders, it's still absolutely ridiculous for the likes of Jim Brunzell and Jim loving Powers to no-sell finishers for 20 drat MINUTES.
The main event actually is not all that bad given the constraints--for a match with multiple 300+ pounders on both sides and everyone else roided up to the gills, it's fairly fast-paced, with not much stalling or restholds, and a good story for Bam Bam. Oh yeah, and Hulk losing in the WWF is always good.

For me at least, the appeal of the early Survivor Series is seeing team-ups that you wouldn't normally see anywhere else, as well as the spotlight put on guys outside of the main event for once. The Islanders and Bam Bam Bigelow getting to have a great showing is a prime example of the latter, and where else will you get to see Savage, Steamboat, and Jake team up to royally kick Honky's rear end?
It seems that over time that they've really neglected that aspect--which is why very few Survivor Series events now even have more than 1-3 actual SurSer matches.
Because they don't develop these things well enough to make these team-ups feel special, and mostly it's the same guys being featured and put over, the same as the other 11 PPVs during the year.

Shiki Dan fucked around with this message at Aug 25, 2017 around 03:46

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


Sounds like you're starting to crack. Believe me, it's WM4...it's going to get a lot worse before it ever gets any better.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


Rarity posted:


I survived WM4, I can survive anything

Maybe so, but making it through 1995 is going to be as much of a challenge as 1988.
However, 1995's WWF roster actually does have a better roster of workers--they're just underutilized due to bad booking, bad gimmicks, or the general influence of Bill Watts.

1988 in retrospect is a very weird transition year for the WWF, something that will become obvious once you get to the screwed up Survivor Series teams that year.
The thing is even guys like Ken Patera and Harley Race who are still there are actually really great workers, you're just seeing them at a point where they are way too old and past their prime and can't be assed to give a poo poo while sleepwalking through matches and collecting a check.
Guys like that begin to get shifted out in favor of new younger stars from the AWA and NWA who actually give a poo poo about their performance and are hungry to get over, not just putting matches on cruise control.
Strange to think, but PPVs, even WM at this point, don't have half the prestige that they do today...where everyone considers it a genuine honor to work the pre-show Battle Royale. For now it's just another day at the office (with a slightly bigger paycheck) for most of the guys, and most of them can't even be bothered to put on a tie or iron their shirt.

Shiki Dan fucked around with this message at Aug 28, 2017 around 14:37

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


quote:

This match was not good and didn't do Savage any favours. He spent the majority of it being dominated and pulled out what looked like a fluke win.

Unfortunately, this is pretty much the standard formula of a babyface Randy Savage singles match.
Savage's offense was so cool, especially by 1980's WWF standards, but whenever he's babyface he decides that no matter if he's up against Andre the Giant or Terrific Terry Taylor, he needs to sell 99% of the time.
Except against Honky, which is why their matches were still good.

This is still MILES better than Hogan Formula match-and if you think you're sick of Hogan right now, you better be prepared for a WHOLE LOT MORE to come.
At the very least, Savage had the courtesy to not kill his opponent's finishers and tailor his comeback based on his opponent.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


Boxing/Wresting crossovers have nonetheless been one of those ideas that work much better on paper than in practice.

Yes, there is a crossover, but for the most part boxing fans turn down their noses at "fake stuff", and wrestling fans find actual fighting to be "boring".

The only times in Wrestling that boxing has managed to crossover over successfully are like...Ali/Inoki (still scripted, and only happened b/c both men were friends and Ali desperately needed the $$$), Tyson/Austin (again, scripted, and focused more on Tyson as a character rather than a boxer), and Big Show/Mayweather (also a work, but better than it had any right to be, although WWE couldn't foresee Mayweather as a heel during the buildup).

Shiki Dan fucked around with this message at Sep 7, 2017 around 18:07

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


Eh, I felt Anvil more than held his own as his part of the team, even if most of his role was to be the hot tag.
Also, as Bret has admitted himself, Anvil was really the charismatic half of the team who held them up during promos, as it took a very long time for Bret to become comfortable on the mic, and even longer before he even became decent.

After Bret was slotted for a singles push, it was obvious that Anvil's career plateaued, so who could really blame him that much for working in 2nd gear.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


The Hart Foundation is the quintessential example of the complementary tag team--each of the team member's weaknesses are covered by the other's strengths.

I think that's what really made them stand out in an era chock full of tag teams composed of guys who are basically extremely similar.

Sometimes similar tag teams work well (Rockers, Road Warriors) though.
However, too often in modern WWE are tag teams just two guys mashed together without anything better to do.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


Bossman's uniform actually is displaying the Georgia state flag, which included the Confederate flag at the time. It's since been changed.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


What funnier is that in 2001 they redesigned the flag due to demands to remove the Confederacy symbol...with the idea that the new flag would display all of the previous Georgia state flags...including the previous Confederate one.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


It isn't until 1989 that Bruce Pritchard and Pat Patterson get much better about the concept of laying out storylines for the entire Royal Rumble match (spoilers the 1989 version is much better).

For the run, you can absolutely tell that they're treating this like any other bog standard (pointless) battle royale match during the time with no plots, no big spots, and standard brawling.

The only early concepts you see that continue on are:
a) Really good worker that enter match early and lasts the longest to showcase his talent, unfortunately overlooked by the announcers here. It would be a while before the "longevity" record would become a thing.
b) Monster heel that gets to eliminate a bunch of people

Other than that, it's just basic storytelling with only minimal plot based on feuds (the Harts dump Tito to continue their feud with Strike Force--which didn't go anywhere after this-- and Race and Duggan).

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


Rarity posted:

What the gently caress was Vince's obsession with the Gang? The guy's been getting a main event level push for a year's worth of PPVs now and he's the drizzling shits. Even by big hoss standards he's dire.

Oh, just you wait.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


I guess I'll go ahead and "spoil" the fact that Sam Houston is actually Jake the Snake's brother, because you'd never be able to tell.

Another spoiler: we won't be seeing him again. Or Brunzell. Or Bass. Or Danny Davis (as a wrestler). Same for a LOT of people on this show.
1988 really was a significant transitional period for the WWF, as we're already past the Rock-n-Wrestling era and peak-Hulkamania, and Vince is feverishly trying to poach talent from Jim Crockett and the rapidly-dying AWA.

You'll see for yourself whether these changes or for the better or not.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


Davros1 posted:

Vince had once said that he wished that he had a locker room full of Tito Santanas.
Because he could get away with paying them next to nothing.

But yeah, keep in mind that a lot of the guys you're seeing up until now are like way past their prime and/or made their names for themselves by working their asses off in their home territories, and that after reaching WWF it was pretty much riding the gravy train and getting as much money as possible while doing the least amount of work.

I mean, Ken Patera is absolutely abysmal at this point, so I was very surprised at looking at his older work back circa 1980 when he was a heel and I-C Champ and he was pretty drat solid.
He and Tony Atlas had what was MOTN at Showdown at Shea, if you want to lookup that show (which is fascinating in retrospective to WWF PPVs since everything from 1980's PPV is basically reversed.)

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


And Brian Blair was a replacement for Junkyard Dog, who was fired for cocaineeeee.

Which means Scott Casey is the only replacement of a replacement in the history of Survivor Series, which lets you know his standing on the pecking order.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


In real life, yeah, but he never really brought that same intensity in the ring or his promos.

I know there's two separate versions of the Bad News post-match promo, probably because the live version (which I believe is the same on the Network and Survivor Series anthology) was botchy and there was one that I think that was redone for Coliseum Video.

Jake Team Promo (w/ Brian Blair)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpuIGxQPxpM

You REALLY want your mind blown?

Bad News Brown was 45 at this point.
Arn Anderson was only 30.

Shiki Dan fucked around with this message at Sep 28, 2017 around 23:13

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


As a palate cleanser, enjoy this match between 4 underutilized workers during the time period:

The Blue Blazer & Koko B Ware vs. The Conquistadors:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VwN0KwIh-k

A lot of problems with this period is that so many important matches and the best work of the period is not done on PPV, but on TV specials like Saturday Night's Main Event, or weekly TV like WWF Superstars or Prime Time Wrestling.
Without watching these, it leaves some gaps in history. As was mentioned, it can also skewer opinion as lot of wrestlers' best work is on TV, like Jake and Koko.

As another treat, in honor the British Bulldogs' departure from the WWF, enjoy this 6 man:

Ultimate Warrior and the Bulldogs versus Demolition and Mr. Fuji:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oyDZ_czfPo

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


Yeah, without being pushy I would have to concur.
Simply because I want to see if you make it over the big hump that is 1995.
There's a LOT of bad and forgettable PPVs once WWF switches to the monthly format between 1995 and the Attitude Era (which would seem to be your starting point of fandom).

I mean...WM 2 and WM 4 are definitely examples of mostly bad shows from a wrestling standpoint, but they're still extremely historically significant so that there's still a lot to talk about with them.
A lot of the monthly PPVs from in 95/96 you can watch and basically go..."well that was a thing" and realize 5 seconds later it meant nothing.

Shiki Dan fucked around with this message at Oct 22, 2017 around 14:44

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


I think a good comparison to Rick Rude is Steve Austin.

Both were pegged as instant stars early in their careers, and their climb to the top is very slow and gradual, gaining credibility and pulling off great matches little by little until they reach their peak.

Unfortunately, they also both ended up getting very serious injuries once they reached their peaks.
Austin was able to soldier on and end up the biggest star in the industry.
Rude wasn't.

Shiki Dan fucked around with this message at Oct 28, 2017 around 17:21

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


Apparently Terry Taylor is now of the two teachers (along with Shawn Michaels) who instructs the "finishing class" of NXT, which is the final level of the WWE training program.

That alone is a pretty good testament to his abilities, even though the Rooster gimmick haunts him to this day.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


"Most Overrated" was usually synonymous for "Most overpushed", which kinda alludes to a John Cena,Roman Reigns-style backlash to Hulk Hogan at the time, but unlike Cena & Reigns, Hogan was unquestionably the biggest draw in 1985 by a wide margin.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


Rude and one other opponent coming up are pretty much the only two guys in the industry that ever had great chemistry with the Warrior and could bring out the very best in him.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


I have a feeling you're eventually going to change your position on Bossman.

As a crossover, here's the WWF debut of Zeus, as well as possibly Bossman's best singles match ever and definitely one of Hogan's best--their steel cage match on May 27th, 1989 SNME (THREE AND 3/4 STARS by Meltzer)

(match starts around 30:00 minutes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4o7Tc3QZvU

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


I've been going back and watching some WWF Superstars and SNME from 1990 (which was actually the exact time period I started watching wrestling), and drat is Brutus Beefcake still massively over.

It really is something how hard and fast he fell into irrelevance, then outright ridicule.
He's a punchline today, but any current WWE main eventer would give up their gonads to get half the reaction Brutus was getting in 89-90.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


A recent shoot interview with Bruce Pritchard revealed that Vince McMahon was absolutely turned off once he heard Schiavone's commentary because of his Southern accent. Vince despises everything Southern, if you don't know.

Pritchard, like me, is a Southerner and essentially had the same reaction I did: Schiavone's Southern accent is actually very mild to our ears, and doesn't really stand out in WCW, but once he went to NY and the WWF, it was a little bit more contrasting.

As I grew up, I intentionally tried to hide my Southern accent more, especially in professional or academic settings, so I can sympathize Tony's plight.
Although sometimes I forget about it, though. I mean, I can actually understand Boomhauer from King of the Hill perfectly because there are guys in my mama's side of the family that talk EXACTLY like him other than one great-Uncle I have that I've never been able to understand and he makes Boomhauer sound like Kenneth Branagh.

Renaissance Spam posted:

I doubt this is going to happen but I really want your opinion of Dusty to change to the point he's 100% your boy by the end of his Fed run.

On the basis of his WWF ring work, this is highly unlikely.
Dusty was basically on the gravy train mode during his run here, collecting a half-mil a year and taking a vacation from WCW politics.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


Earthquake is a familiar archetype, but unlike say One Man Gang and King Kong Bundy:

--He was a genuine athlete (a legit Sumo champion)
--Gave a poo poo about workrate and could really go 15-20 minutes without slowing down
--Was booked well for most of his run, rather than just being fodder for the top faces

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


The Hogan-DiBiase match on this Survivor Series card is the only one in which all the participants are still alive (no mean feat considering Hogan, Jake and Warlord all came very close to dying well over a decade ago).

In fact, it's the only match doesn't have 3 or more dead participants in it.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


Anyone willing to share their wife with their boss has to be a pretty generous guy.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


Davros1 posted:

Tully failed a drug test (cocaine!) and the dissension is finished up on a Saturday Night's Main Event that was taped before Survivor Series

Arn and Tully had already decided to go back down south after their 1-year contracts expired, since they weren't making the money that Vince had quoted for them.

So the "random" drug test before PPV was kinda sorta a way to screw with them.
Tully ended up doubly screwed since JCP used the failed drug test as an excuse not to hire him back either, meaning he was blackballed from both of the top North American promotions and his career was for all intents and purposes ended here, when he was still young and at his peak.

Naturally, he became VERY bitter about this until about 10 years later when he became a born-again Christian and started a prison ministry. He then gradually began repairing his estranged friendship with Arn and Flair.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


I usually liked the heels more than the faces, simply because they worked harder.

Mr. Perfect, Ted DiBiase, and I was the biggest Macho Man mark, and so thrilled when EDIT SPOILERS, sorry forget which thread this was.

Shiki Dan fucked around with this message at Dec 3, 2017 around 02:18

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


I admit that I'm totally clueless about this whole "WWF being taken off PPV" thing here.

Does Meltzer say anything about what was going on in this period?

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


The Bossman/Hogan cage match was in May 89', I linked to the full match several pages ago:

Shiki Dan posted:

I have a feeling you're eventually going to change your position on Bossman.

As a crossover, here's the WWF debut of Zeus, as well as possibly Bossman's best singles match ever and definitely one of Hogan's best--their steel cage match on May 27th, 1989 SNME (THREE AND 3/4 STARS by Meltzer)

(match starts around 30:00 minutes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4o7Tc3QZvU

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


As blatantly old-school racist and sexist at lot of Hulkamania-era WWF is, it really doesn't compare to Russo-and-Ferrara-Attitude WWF in my opinion.
...And then stuff post-Russo that may be even WORSE (HLA, Kiss My rear end club, Katie Vick, DX raping a coed).

At least Akeem was actually funny and intentionally done as a rib to Dusty, not towards all black people in general.
It wasn't done with malice and the actual INTENT to be as offensive and disgusting as possible.

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


*1999 Spoilers*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Q6kO1SbMI

Later it was revealed that it wasn't actually Stephanie, but some random coed I guess they were raping instead.

And this segment is actually just AFTER Russo and Ferrara left, I believe.

Shiki Dan fucked around with this message at Dec 20, 2017 around 01:49

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


Nah, the Australian fad was still in effect in 87, Outback Jack simply sucked beyond belief even by the incredibly low standards of 87' WWF which included the likes of King Kong Bundy, George Steele, JYD, and Killer Khan.

He sucked too much even compared to THOSE guys, think about that.

As a bonus, here's his last WWF match in May 1988, a 6-man tag featuring Outback Jack, Steve Blackman (yes, THAT Steve Blackman), and Bob Bradley (the future Battlekat...don't ask) vs. The Islanders (Haku, Tama, and Chief Afi...all of whom except Haku left shortly after this).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMqFPpm9v6U

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


Tito/Martel is one of those feuds that basically lasts forever because there's no definitive closure to it.

Kind of like Tito/Valentine.

Flair/Piper and Terry Funk/Mick Foley are kinda like that, but more like they fight each other over the decades basically when they have nothing better to do.

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Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


Rarity posted:

Burtus has been far too protected over the last couple of years. I assume this is because Hulk's looking out for his bestie but I hate it and I hate Burtus and I want it to stop.


GOOD NEWS then, because this is, for all intents and purposes, the last PPV for Brutus as a legitimate contender in the WWF, as his infamous parasailing accident comes soon after this, which ended his in-ring career for the next 3 years. Yeah, he'll be around as a toady or interviewer, but this is pretty much the death knell of Brutus Beefcake.
And yes, beating Perfect's perfect PPV streak wasn't enough, he was going to be rocketed up to the I-C Title soon after this until poo poo happened.

I'm really ambivalent about Beefcake in general.
I don't believe his 1980's WWF run was nearly as bad as everyone says it was. He was far from the worst worker on any given card, despite 80's WWF very low standard of workrate, but he could at least work up to the levels of most of the elite workers of the period like Savage or the Bulldogs if he really needed to.
Yeah, he only got as far as he did by being Hogan's butt buddy, but he WAS legitimately hugely over on his own merits. Until post-WMV he didn't start playing up an on-screen relationship with Hogan and he was already pretty drat over.
It was at this point where his push was probably higher than his ceiling should have been (going over Savage on house shows, going over Hennig at WM, and on the fast track to the I-C title back when it REALLY meant something), but then again he was possibly the 3rd most popular face in the company at this point behind Hogan and Warrior.

None of this applies to his WCW run, though. Good lord, he was total poo poo from top to bottom.

Shiki Dan fucked around with this message at Dec 25, 2017 around 19:24

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