NFA Firearms Information and Discussion: Philately will get you nowhere

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Craptacular: Jul 11, 2004

What is the NFA?
The National Firearms Act (NFA) is a federal law that adds additional legal restrictions on the manufacture, transfer and possession of certain types of firearms on top of the laws for "normal" firearms (e.g. handguns, rifles and shotguns).

Back in the early 20th century, there were few, if any federal firearms laws. But outcry over Prohibition-era gangsters, the perceived threat of communist uprising, and the desire of FDR to regulate anything and everything led to the passage in 1934 of the first major federal gun control law, the NFA. At the time, it was not considered constitutional for Congress to ban firearms outright. But it was considered constitutional to implement a tax, so the NFA is a firearms law masquerading as a tax law. The NFA requires a tax be paid whenever an NFA firearm is transferred or made. To be legal, all NFA-regulated firearms must be registered with the ATF.

The assassinations of JFK with a non-NFA bolt-action Carcano rifle and MLK with a non-NFA pump-action Remington rifle led Congress to decide ~~hey, a good excuse for more gun control~~ that NFA firearms were a problem. They further restricted NFA firearms through the Gun Control Act in 1968, by limiting imports of NFA firearms, and adding destructive devices to the NFA, neither of which would have had any effect on regulating the firearms used in those two assassinations. Finally, the Firearms Owners Protection Act in 1986 was generally a good law in that it loosened some of the more onerous parts of the Gun Control Act, but it also included a provision to ban further registration of machine guns for transfer to the general public. This was intended as a poison pill to prevent the whole bill from passing, but the bill was passed anyways.

What are the different types of NFA firearms?
Silencers (sound suppressors):
Silencers are defined as something attached to a firearm which muffles the report of the firearm. Legally, they’re firearms in and of themselves, despite silencers not being able to discharge ammunition.

Silencers work by using a series of baffles to trap the expanding shock wave produced by an expended round.

(cutaway view)

This means that they only muffle the noise from the ammunition’s gunpowder exploding. However, if a bullet is supersonic, it will also make a sonic boom which occurs during the whole flight of the bullet. A silencer can’t quiet this, because the sound is being produced after the bullet leaves the silencer. Because of the sonic boom, only suppressors shooting subsonic ammunition can approach “Hollywood movie” quiet. A silencer also can't quiet the operation of the gun's action, such as the slide or bolt moving. The quietest silenced firearms are usually bolt actions, where the firing pin dropping will be loudest noise from the action. But silencers still provide significant sound reduction over an unsuppressed firearm, even with supersonic ammunition in a semi- or full-auto firearm.

But why would anyone want a quieter gun? James Bond fantasies, obviously. Well, maybe, but silencers are also good for:

Being a good neighbor, as shooting a quieter firearm is less annoying to others who might be within earshot.
Recoil and flash reduction for the shooter, as silencers are excellent brakes and flash suppressors.
Training new shooters. Starting out with a suppressed rimfire gun is generally easier than starting with a louder unsuppressed firearm which may intimidate a new shooter.
Hunters, since many prefer not to wear any hearing protection. However, check your state laws, as a few states ban silencer use while hunting, even though silencer ownership is legal in those states.

Most silencers are attached to the host firearm either by muzzle threads, or some sort of quick-detach mount. Threaded mounts are generally cheaper, but they tend to come loose more easily than quick-detach mounts. The 3-lug system is a common quick-detach mount used on 9mm firearms. The silencer's breech slides over the lugs and then the silencer is rotated 60 degrees to lock it onto the lugs with spring pressure.

Unfortunately, there's no standard for quick-detach mounts used by other calibers. This means the quick-detach silencer from one manufacturer almost always won't attach to the quick-detach mount from a second manufacturer.

There are also integral silencers, where the barrel and silencer body are one piece. The advantages are that the firearm is often shorter than an equivalent firearm with a muzzle-attached silencer, and an integral can appear at first glance to just be a normal bull barrel. However, an integral is stuck with the gun that it's part of, and can't be moved between firearms like a muzzle-attached silencer. Some integral silencers, such as the one on the MP5SD, include barrel ports to bleed off enough gas from supersonic rounds to make them subsonic, which reduces the sound.

Short Barreled Shotguns (SBS):
Short barreled shotguns are any shotgun that has a barrel shorter than 18” or an overall length less than 26", or any such firearm made from a shotgun.

Short Barreled Rifles (SBR):
Short barreled rifles are any rifle with a barrel length shorter than 16", or an overall length of less than 26", or any such firearm made from a rifle.

Originally the rifle barrel length requirement was 18”, as with shotguns. But after WWII the government sold a number of M1 Carbines to the public as surplus, without realizing that a number of those rifles had barrels which were not quite 18” long. Congress decided the easiest fix was to just lower the rifle barrel length requirement, but left the shotgun barrel length alone.

But since handguns are even more concealable, why aren't they regulated to the same level as short-barreled long arms? The first drafts of the NFA in Congress would have also regulated handguns like short-barreled longarms, with the same taxes and transfer approvals. The authors of the NFA didn't want people cutting down non-NFA rifles and shotguns into shorter, more concealable handgun-like firearms to avoid the tax and transfer requirements, so they also restricted short-barreled longarms. In the most important thing the National Rifle Association has probably ever done, they were able to get handguns removed from the NFA before it passed. I'd hate to see where gun ownership in the US would be now if handguns were NFA-regulated. However, short-barreled longarms weren't removed from the bill, resulting in the current situation with handguns and long-barreled longarms more lightly regulated, yet short-barreled longarms more heavily regulated.

Any Other Weapon (AOWs):
AOWs are concealable firearms (less than 26” OAL) that aren’t handguns, but don’t fit in one of the other categories. Examples would include such things as pen guns, cane guns, belt-buckle guns, short combination guns (guns with multiple barrels that can only shoot one shot per barrel before reloading, for example a short Springfield Scout M6) and short stockless smoothbore firearms such as the Serbu Super Shorty. Unlike all other types of NFA firearms, AOW transfers only incur a $5 tax, although the tax for making them is still $200 like all the other types.

Destructive Devices (DD):
Destructive devices are firearms with a bore larger than 1/2”, such as breechloading cannon, artillery, mortars, grenade launchers and similar firearms. Most shotguns are also over 1/2” bore, but there is a clause in the law allows the ATF to exclude any firearm from regulation as a destructive device if the ATF says the firearm has a “sporting purpose." They've done this for all but two shotguns, the USAS-12 and Streetsweeper. They’ve also exempted a number of rifles chambered for large cartridges typically used for hunting large game, like the .577 Tyrannosaur and .600 and .700 Nitro. I don’t know of any firm guidelines as to what the ATF will exempt, but it appears as long as the cartridge is not used in a “military” firearm, either now or in the past, then the ATF will most likely grant a DD exemption for firearms chambered in that cartridge. For example a Solothurn S18/1000 in 20×138mm wouldn't get a DD exemption because it's an anti-tank rifle, but an SSK 950 JDJ did get a DD exemption, despite it shooting a much larger and heavier bullet.

The destructive device classification also includes bombs, grenades, and other explosive anti-personnel devices, but many of these also require a Federal Explosives License to possess, and therefore aren’t available to the general public.

Machine guns:
Machine guns are defined as any firearm capable of full-auto or burst-fire, or any part or combination of parts which can be used to convert a firearm to full-auto or burst-fire. Machine guns are a special case, because unlike other NFA firearms, no new machine guns may be manufactured and registered except for government use or export. This was not the case prior to May 19, 1986, but after that date the FOPA took effect and enacted 18 USC 922(o) into law, which banned transferring machine guns registered after that date to the general public. All other types of NFA firearms besides machine guns may still be domestically manufactured and transferred to the general public. However, after the GCA became law in 1968, NFA firearms that were imported after that date may only be transferred to the government and dealers.

Types of machine guns:

"Transferable" machine guns were domestically registered prior to May 19, 1986, or foreign-made and registered prior to December 2, 1968. These may be possessed by and transferred between members of the general public. A number of foreign-manufactured semi-auto firearms were imported after 1968, but were later converted to machine guns once in the US after import. They count as domestically-produced machine guns because the conversion was done in the US.
"Pre-sample" or "pre-May" machine guns are foreign-manufactured machine guns imported or domestically-manufactured machineguns which were re-imported between December 2, 1968 and May 19, 1986. These may be possessed by FFL/SOT manufacturers, importers and dealers, and the government, but not by anyone else. They may also be kept by FFL/SOTs after they go out of business and give up their license.
"Post-sample" machine guns are all machine guns registered after May 19, 1986, whether by manufacture or import. These may only be possessed by the government, by the FFL/SOT manufacturer who built them, by the FFL/SOT importer who imported them, or by an FFL/SOT dealer who has a government agency provide a demonstration request letter to the ATF on behalf of the dealer. They may not be kept by an FFL/SOT after they go out of business and give up their license.
"Form 10" machine guns are machine guns which were illegal, unregistered or contraband which have since been registered by a government agency. Unsurprisingly, they're registered on an ATF form 10. They can only be transferred between other government agencies, not even a dealer can legally possess these.

Because there are only a limited number of transferable machine guns but a large number of people who want them, the price of transferable machine guns has gone steadily upwards since 18 USC 922(o) was passed in 1986. As of 2020, the cheapest transferable machine guns are about $6,000-7,000, with most types now into five figures. The number of pre-sample machine guns is also limited, but since only active FFL/SOTs can buy them the price is generally somewhere between a post-sample and a transferable machine gun. Since post-samples include newly manufactured machine guns, the only limit on their price is how much it costs the manufacturer to produce and sell them, instead of prices that are artificially raised due to restricted numbers, like the other types.

Note that I am not referring to these types of firearms as "Class 3" firearms, as they are sometimes called. "Class 3" is a type of tax paid by an FFL (Federal Firearms Licensee, a gun dealer), not a type of firearm, so using this to refer to a firearm would be a misnomer. Any FFL who wants to deal in NFA firearms will pay an annual Special Occupational Tax, which allows them to transfer firearms between other FFL/SOTs tax-free, and import or manufacture NFA firearms tax-free (with the appropriate type of SOT). Since not all FFLs have an SOT, if you want to use an FFL for an NFA transfer, make sure they have an SOT. Typically, the fee an FFL/SOT charges for transferring an NFA firearm will be several times the fee they charge for transferring a normal firearm, due to the length of time it takes for the transfer to be approved.

There's three different types of SOTs:

A Class 1 FFL/SOT may import and deal in NFA firearms.
A Class 2 FFL/SOT may manufacture and deal in NFA firearms.
A Class 3 FFL/SOT may deal in NFA firearms.

How do I get an NFA firearm?
You have two choices: buy one, or make one.

Purchasing an NFA firearm:
The NFA was purposely designed to impede the general public from obtaining NFA firearms through a $200 transfer and making tax. Although the tax still exists, because of inflation now it's mostly just a minor annoyance. However when the law was originally passed, $200 was several times the price of most new firearms. Today, most of the inconvenience comes from the extra steps required for the ATF to approve the transfer or manufacture of an NFA firearm. The extra steps are not that difficult, but are more involved than for a normal firearm. Mostly, it's a lot of waiting.

Private ownership vs. ownership by a trust or corporation:
It's possible to register an NFA firearm to a trust, LLC or corporation instead of an individual person. This allows multiple people to legally possess the NFA firearm. As long as a person is a trustee of the trust or officer of the corporation, and not otherwise legally prohibited from possessing firearms, then the company can authorize them to possess trust or corporate assets (the firearms).

Since trusts are the simplest to create and administer, if you use a legal entity to possess your NFA firearms it’s probably best to use a trust. If you already have an LLC (for a business you own, for example), avoid using that to own NFA firearms. Keep your livelihood and your hobbies separate.

I also suggest that you give the trust a short name, if only for the reason that it'll be easier to find a place to engrave a shorter name on a firearm if you ever make an NFA firearm using a form 1. Many people name the trust after themselves (e.g. Smith Family Trust) so it’s more obvious that they’re a trustee.

CLEO signoff / CLEO notification:
In the past, there was a requirement that a Chief Law Enforcement Officer sign-off on ATF forms from real persons before the ATF would approve them. A CLEO was not required to sign the forms, and in the places where no CLEO would sign, this somewhat limited the ability of people residing in those jurisdictions to own NFA firearms. However, the signature requirement was not applicable to forms by submitted trusts, LLCs or corporations. Many people would use a trust, LLC or corporation as a legal sidestep around the signature requirement. Then because they were a trustee or officer of the trust, LLC or corporation they were able to possess the firearms owned by that legal entity.

However, that's all changed now. As of July 2016, the ATF has implemented a new rule named 41F. The CLEO signoff is no longer required for anyone, and has been replaced with CLEO notification. Instead of sending the completed forms in duplicate to the ATF, forms are now filled out in triplicate. Two copies go to the ATF, one of which is returned to you or your dealer on approval, depending on if it’s a form 1 or form 4. The third copy goes to your CLEO for notification.

The CLEO must be the head of a law enforcement agency that has jurisdiction over your residence. It can't just be some random officer or deputy. However, there’s usually multiple acceptable CLEOs. For example, your city’s police chief, your county's sheriff, or the head of the state police would all be acceptable. But if you live in town A, the police chief of town B wouldn't be acceptable, because that police chief isn't the head of an agency that has jurisdiction over your residence.

Steps for purchasing (form 4):

Find someone selling the NFA firearm you want. (See links at the end of this post for some dealers.)
If it's outside your state, the firearm must first be transferred to an SOT inside your state. If the seller is also an FFL/SOT, the NFA firearm transfers tax-free on a form 3 from one SOT to another. If the seller is not an FFL/SOT, the NFA firearm transfers in a taxed transfer on a form 4.
Once the firearm arrives at your FFL/SOT dealer, or if you buy it from your dealer, they will help you fill out an ATF form 4 to transfer the firearm to you. If buying in-state from a private seller, the seller should provide the form 4. The dealer or seller should fill out most of this, and any parts that you have to fill out should be self-explanatory.
Box 15: You must put a reason why you want the firearm. This is just an ATF CYA in case someone is stupid enough to state an illegal purpose, or something that implies illegality. Just use “All lawful purposes.”
Print out the form in duplex (i.e. on both sides of the paper). ATF policy is to reject forms printed only on one side of the paper.
If a transfer to a trust, LLC or corporation, fill out a form 5320.23 for each responsible person. A responsible person is a settlor/grantor, trustee, partner, member, officer, director, board member, or owner of the trust, LLC or corporation.
Get two 2”x2” passport photos taken. Attach them to the form 4 if a transfer to a real person, or to the appropriate form 5320.23 for each responsible person.
Get fingerprints taken in duplicate of the transferee or each responsible person. Try your sheriff's office or police department. It’s legally OK to take your own fingerprints if you know how, but if you’ve not done it before it’ll be easier and likely have lower odds of rejection for illegible prints if someone who has been trained to do so takes the prints.
Make out a check to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Use a personal check so that you can see when it clears. Then you'll know when the paperwork's been received and the approval process has started.
Make a photocopy of the front of the form 4 for your records.
Mail the CLEO copy to the CLEO.
Mail everything else to the address on the form 4.
Wait. Watch your bank statement and see when the ATF cashes your check. They do it at the very beginning of the process, so don’t get all excited yet. But at least you know your paperwork has been received and the process has started.
Wait some more. There is always a backlog of forms to be processed, so your form goes into a queue. When your form is processed, the ATF takes the information off of the form 4 and inputs it into the National Firearms Registry and Transfer Record (NFRTR), their database of all legal NFA firearms. Anytime an NFA firearm is manufactured or transferred, the ATF is supposed to update the NFRTR.
Wait even longer. Seriously, it can take a really long time. As of July 2017, it’s about a year. This is on the high side of the historical average, mostly caused by people wanting to avoid the 41F requirements for fingerprints and photos from every trustee or member of an LLC, so it should go down over time. Back in 2006 I had a form 4 approved in just six weeks, which would be pretty much unheard of today. The NFA Tracker is a website which will let you see how long other people have had to wait for their forms to be approved, and will let you estimate how long it will take for your form’s approval.
If your transfer is taking longer than other people who submitted their forms around the same time, call the ATF’s NFA Branch at 304-616-4500 and ask for your transfer’s status. They will ask for the name of the transferor, the name of the transferee (you or your trust/LLC) and the serial number of the gun. This is the reason to save a photocopy of the form 4.
When the approved form 4 arrives at the transferor, pick up the gun and the approved form 4 from the seller. The form will have a canceled tax stamp affixed to it, which is the proof that the transfer tax was paid. A blue tax stamp is used for $200 transfers and manufacturing, and a red stamp is used for $5 AOW transfers.
Make copies of the form. Take the copies when you go shooting in case the police or range master wants to make sure the gun is legal. Store the original form somewhere secure like your gun safe or a safe deposit box. Remember above where I said the ATF is "supposed to update the NFRTR?" Well, mistakes happen. They've gotten a lot better than in past decades, but it's still a possibility. The ATF is supposed to retain the duplicate form 4 which you sent, but if they lose it, your gun might show up as unregistered. Having the original form to prove that the gun is in fact registered will make your life easier if that happens. Don’t laminate the original form, as that makes authenticating it as an original more difficult.

Steps for making (form 1):
It's also possible to legally make your own NFA firearm, as long as it's not a machine gun. You can either build the gun from scratch, or modify a normal firearm into an NFA firearm. The process to make an NFA firearm is very similar to the transfer of an NFA firearm.

Engrave the name of the entity which is making the gun (you or your trust/LLC/corporation; whoever is listed as the applicant in box 3b on the form 1), and the entity’s city & state on the gun. Have the engraving done first. This way if the engraver screws up the engraving or the gun gets lost in the mail to or from the engravers you'll have fewer problems. The engraving must be at least .003" deep. A local trophy shop or similar engraver usually won’t engrave the letters deep enough; you’ll probably need to send the gun to an FFL/SOT who does firearm engraving (see links at the end of this post).
Fill out an ATF form 1 in triplicate. The form is pretty self-explanatory and has instructions included, but here's a few tips.
Box 4c: Caliber. Put the actual caliber, even if the gun is marked “Multi.”
Box 4e: Barrel length. Put the actual barrel length. Muzzle devices that are not permanently attached are not included in the barrel length.
Box 4f: Overall length. Firearms with folding stocks should be measured with the stocks opened to their fullest extent.
There is no limitation on future changes to another caliber, to the barrel length or to the OAL. The ATF just asks that they be notified if it’s a permanent modification. If you do this, a letter sent to the NFA Branch will suffice; there is no specific form.
Other than the engraving requirement for NFA firearms you manufacture, the remainder of the process is pretty similar to a transfer on a form 4.
Once you receive the approved form 1, make the NFA firearm. Depending on the firearm, this may be as simple as attaching a short upper on an AR15, or as complicated as firing up your lathe, drill press and/or CNC machine if you’re more mechanically inclined.

State restrictions:
Most states have no additional restrictions on NFA firearms beyond federal law. Some states have additional state-level registration requirements, and/or ban certain types of NFA firearms. The types of NFA firearms that are allowed has changed quite a lot in some states recently (almost all for the better), so don’t go just by some list that you find on the internet, it’s quite possibly out of date.

Transportation requirements:
ATF permission is required prior to interstate transport of a machine gun, SBR, SBS or destructive device, for either temporary transport or a permanent move. AOWs and silencers do not require permission. To get permission, submit an ATF form 5320.20 to the NFA branch. Approved 5320.20 forms for non-permanent moves can be valid for up to a year, and the ATF usually approves them much quicker than a form 1 or form 4. No permission is required for purely intrastate transport or moves.

eForms:
https://www.atfonline.gov/EForms/
This is a way to electronically submit forms to the ATF. As of November 2018, the general public can submit form 1's through the system, with form 4's coming sometime in the future. The ATF will mail fingerprint cards to the submitter, which then have to be filled out and mailed back to the ATF.. Even though 5320.20’s don’t require fingerprints or photos, for some reason that form has never been available to submit through eForms. FFL/SOTs, can also submit form 2’s (notification of a firearm being manufactured), form 3’s (untaxed transfers between dealers) and form 5's (untaxed transfers to government agencies).

Storage requirements:
There is no statutory requirement to store your NFA firearms in a safe, per se. What is required is that you not transfer your NFA firearms to another person without filling out a form 4 and getting ATF approval. What this means is that other people can't use your NFA firearms while you're not there with them. If you’re about to shell out the money for NFA firearms, you’re not terribly poor and most likely own other firearms, so you should have a safe already anyways. If you need more than one person to legally have access to your NFA firearms then it's best to use a trust or LLC as described above.

Age requirements:
In order for an FFL to transfer any firearm (NFA or non-NFA), the transferee must be at least 21 years old, according to federal law. There is an exception which allows FFLs to transfer non-NFA rifles and shotguns to 18-20 year olds. However NFA firearms, including SBRs and SBSes, do not meet this exception. But the age requirement to possess an NFA firearm is only 18. This means that an 18-20 year old may build NFA firearms on a form 1, and may have NFA firearms transferred to them by another non-licensee who is a resident of the same state, on a form 4. If it’s a trust with multiple trustees, an 18-20 year-old may also possess NFA firearms that the trust owns, which were transferred into the trust from an FFL, through a different trustee who is 21 or older, as long as the 18-20 year-old trustee was not designated a responsible person in the trust when the transfer was completed.

Links:
NFA Tracker, crowd-sourced form 1 and form 4 completion times
Machinegun Price Guide, current and historic prices for transferrable machineguns.

NFA discussion boards:
Subguns.com NFA discussion board & NFA classifieds
Sturmgewehr.com NFA discussion board & NFA classifieds
Silencer Talk

Firearm engraving (for form 1s, listed alphabetically):
Black Rifle Engraving
Gray Laser
Ident Marking
Orion Arms
Tarheel State Firearms

Suppressor manufacturers (listed alphabetically):
Advanced Armament (AAC)
AWC
Coastal Gun
Gemtech
Griffin Armament
SilencerCo
SRT Arms
Thompson Machine
Thunder Beast Arms
TROS USA

Suppressor dealers (listed alphabetically):
Capitol Armory
Dakota Silencer
Silencer Shop
Verona Gun Safe (goon dealer)

Machine gun dealers (listed alphabetically):
Autoweapons
David Spiwak
Ruben Mendiola

Suppressor reviews:
Silencer Forum Reviews

Legal:
The National Firearms Act, 26 USC Chapter 53, Subchapter B.
Most of the remainder of major US firearms law, 18 USC Chapter 44
ATF NFA Handbook (FAQ)

Let me know if there's any typos, mistakes, broken links, etc. Any other suggestions are also welcome.

Craptacular fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Aug 21, 2020

# ? Jul 27, 2017 01:09

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# ? Apr 13, 2021 15:37

Craptacular: Jul 11, 2004

Craptacular fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Jul 19, 2019

# ? Jul 27, 2017 01:10

various cheeses: Jan 24, 2013

Add Tarheel State Firearms as an engraver. They did all of mine with good pricing and excellent turnaround time.

# ? Jul 27, 2017 01:58

Bummey: May 26, 2004; you are a filth wizard, friend only to the grumpig and the rattata

hi newthread

# ? Jul 27, 2017 02:18

Exit Strategy: Dec 10, 2010

I'll part when I send my Form 5s, and when I get them back. Sound like a valuable addition to the thread?

# ? Jul 27, 2017 03:47

stgdz: Nov 3, 2006; 158 grains of smiley powered justice

NFA will always be NFA,

Just get used to the wait times and tax stamps.

# ? Jul 27, 2017 04:10

Hazborgufen: Apr 11, 2005

That OP is going to need some revision as soon as the HPA passes.

# ? Jul 27, 2017 04:29

Sten Freak: Sep 10, 2008; Despite all of these shortcomings, the Sten still has a long track record of shooting people right in the face.; College Slice

That is an absolutely top tier OP.

One thing I'd add about silencers is some do affect supersonic bullets by way of incorporating a ported barrel as part of the device, bleeding gasses off so the result is supersonic ammo is subsonic when it leaves the can. The one in my av works like this.

# ? Jul 27, 2017 04:57

wkarma: Jul 16, 2010

Great job craptacular!

# ? Jul 27, 2017 05:08

ZebraBlade: Mar 26, 2010; Something is rotten in the state of Denmark

Hazborgufen posted:

That OP is going to need some revision as soon as the HPA passes.

Not to derail this new thread already but lol, its not going anywhere for 2-3 years. If anything it will be pushed through pre 2020 election, but even then its about as likely to make it as a birthday candle in a hurricane.

Buy your cans now, dont wait and bank on the HPA happening because it wont.

# ? Jul 27, 2017 12:39

Fog Tripper: Mar 3, 2008; by Smythe

Awesome OP. Only change I would make is move the tracker link to the top.

# ? Jul 27, 2017 12:49

Hazborgufen: Apr 11, 2005

ZebraBlade posted:

Not to derail this new thread already but lol, its not going anywhere for 2-3 years. If anything it will be pushed through pre 2020 election, but even then its about as likely to make it as a birthday candle in a hurricane.

Buy your cans now, dont wait and bank on the HPA happening because it wont.

The HPA is totally going to pass for real. Are you suggesting that a political candidate pandered to a voting bloc with platitudes toward their pet issue all while having no intention of acting on them?

If so, I bid good day to you, sir! Have some respect for the prestige of public office! Disgraceful.

# ? Jul 27, 2017 13:36

charliebravo77: Jun 11, 2003

ZebraBlade posted:

Buy your cans now, dont wait and bank on the HPA happening because it wont.

Some of us live in the very few gray spots on that map

# ? Jul 27, 2017 13:37

Insane Totoro: Dec 5, 2005; Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!

I approve of this thread and all that it stands for.

I kinda want one of those SiCo integrally suppressed 9mm pistols.

# ? Jul 27, 2017 14:42

ZebraBlade: Mar 26, 2010; Something is rotten in the state of Denmark

Insane Totoro posted:

I approve of this thread and all that it stands for.

I kinda want one of those SiCo integrally suppressed 9mm pistols.

My NFA dealer guy has 2 in his office (room in his basement) and I played with one yesterday while I was there filling out my form 4 stuff for some new cans. They are very rough in that they feel like they are still kinda prototypes or beta versions. Don't get me wrong they are cool as heck but I'm not sure I would buy this initial version.

# ? Jul 27, 2017 15:46

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006

Goddamn, awesome OP.

# ? Jul 27, 2017 16:54

Insane Totoro: Dec 5, 2005; Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!

Cyrano4747 posted:

Goddamn, awesome OP.

Craptacular knows his poo poo!

More signal, less noise.

You're welcome!

# ? Jul 27, 2017 17:29

charliebravo77: Jun 11, 2003

Hypothetically could I, as an Illinois resident gun owner and thus criminal in the eyes of the state, start a LLC in WI or IN just over the border and purchase suppressors for use outside of IL and store them in a safety deposit box or something (in IN or WI)?

# ? Jul 27, 2017 17:46

Craptacular: Jul 11, 2004

The only way to do that would be to start a trust or LLC in another state where silencers are legal, and have someone else who lives in that state be also be a trustee or member. They would have to pick up the silencer from the FFL when the transfer is approved because the firearm is not a title I rifle or shotgun. The FFL can only transfer it to a resident of the same state. Even though that other person just acting as an agent of the legal entity, their residency still matters. Once the legal entity possesses the silencer though, any trustee or member is legally allowed to possess it, as long as they're not personally prohibited by being a felon or something.

# ? Jul 27, 2017 17:57

Cloudyak: May 14, 2009; Just another American who saw too many movies as a child? Another orphan of a bankrupt culture who thinks he's John Wayne? Rambo? Marshal Dillon?

My maxim came in and to echo what is already said the machining is a little rough. You can see spiral machining marks in the relief of the suppressor. The field strip is really easy but the full take down requires you to remove a coil pin. All of that said it has run everything that I have put through it so far, both subs and supers. It come with magpul glock mags but I haven't tried actual glock mags yet. The mounting plates for red dots just came out this week. They do not have plans for a micro mount, wish they would but it isn't in the cards.
Indoors the short config is a little loud but outdoors it shouldn't be problems. I have been running the long configuration mostly and it sounds like any other suppressed gun. I don't have a meter so take that with a grain of salt. It will be a year before it gets to come home but if anyone wants specific pictures I can get some the next time I go in. The sear looks a little bit like an M&P but the rest of the trigger looks proprietary. I might make some video of the operating bits since they are quite weird and interesting. It isnt roller delayed, there is an internal slide that looks like most strikers but it recoils back and unlocks a block on the left side of the gun and then the rest of the slide recoils back. Its a poo poo description, I know. The dual recoil springs are in the top of the slide and are fixed by a take down lever. Ian should really get his hands on one for a full take down.

# ? Jul 27, 2017 18:01

Fog Tripper: Mar 3, 2008; by Smythe

The tracker for individual paper forms is looking good.

Looks clearly like a ^ happened.

Fog Tripper fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Jul 27, 2017

# ? Jul 27, 2017 18:06

MomJeans420: Mar 19, 2007

Please close this thread, I live in CA and it's making me depressed.

# ? Jul 27, 2017 18:15

Craptacular: Jul 11, 2004

IIRC, unless something changed recently, short shotgun-ish AOWs are the only NFA firearms that are legal for the general public in California. Maybe that'll scratch your itch?

# ? Jul 27, 2017 18:36

Bummey: May 26, 2004; you are a filth wizard, friend only to the grumpig and the rattata

Even though this is the NFA thread you should put in a section for non-nfa "Firearms" too. Non-stocked ARs with OALs over 26" and legal foregrips, for example. or that dumb not-shotgun.

Bummey fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Jul 28, 2017

# ? Jul 27, 2017 20:46

Insane Totoro: Dec 5, 2005; Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!

Sigh. Guess not a Maxim this year. Thanks though, guys.

# ? Jul 27, 2017 22:28

fps_bill: Apr 6, 2012

I really wish silencerco would have stuck with the M&P based maxim. I was playing with my M&P lastnight and it just feels so good in the hand.

# ? Jul 28, 2017 22:01

A.o.D.: Jan 15, 2006; The Suffering of the Succotash.

Insane Totoro posted:

Sigh. Guess not a Maxim this year. Thanks though, guys.

I am pretending that you mean a Maxim water-cooled machine gun and not a 9mm pistol, because I'm definitely not getting one of those this year, either.

# ? Jul 29, 2017 03:28

Atticus_1354: Dec 9, 2006; Don't you go near that dog, you understand? Don't go near him, he's just as dangerous dead as alive.

fps_bill posted:

I really wish silencerco would have stuck with the M&P based maxim. I was playing with my M&P lastnight and it just feels so good in the hand.

I would probably buy one if it was M&P based. I handled one the other day and it felt alright but just didn't grab my interest.

# ? Jul 29, 2017 18:01

ZebraBlade: Mar 26, 2010; Something is rotten in the state of Denmark

Some Form 3's are getting approved the same day submitted, some just 2-3 HOURS later. This was a 2-3 MONTH wait for the past few years. Weird how it dropped so drastically almost overnight.

# ? Jul 30, 2017 01:05

Craptacular: Jul 11, 2004

Are you sure that's not just an isolated case of LIFO instead of FIFO?

# ? Jul 30, 2017 01:21

Snowman Crossing: Dec 4, 2009

Maaaan, I kinda wish I hadn't done this today. This was my first time shooting a suppressed pistol and it was so much fun it should be illegal. But I can't take my Omega home for probably 9 months at least.

147 grain subsonic ker-thunk ker-thunk

# ? Jul 30, 2017 23:55

Cbear: Mar 22, 2005

Is there a decent website/entity for doing my NFA trust?

# ? Jul 31, 2017 00:12

stgdz: Nov 3, 2006; 158 grains of smiley powered justice

try 22 handgun suppressed and then you will holy trinity of firearms

# ? Jul 31, 2017 05:10

A Wizard of Goatse: Dec 14, 2014

Cbear posted:

Is there a decent website/entity for doing my NFA trust?

199trust.com did mine, worth cutting through the bullshit

# ? Jul 31, 2017 15:45

Insane Totoro: Dec 5, 2005; Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!

stgdz posted:

try 22 handgun suppressed and then you will holy trinity of firearms

A suppressed Buckmark is kinda orgasmic.

# ? Jul 31, 2017 15:59

Sten Freak: Sep 10, 2008; Despite all of these shortcomings, the Sten still has a long track record of shooting people right in the face.; College Slice

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/673447796

HMMMM

It says it screws onto military style barrels using the ring on it

quote:

It is a DIRECT fit, Quick Detach Suppressor for VZ61 Skorpions with an original military type barrel!

The Aculeus uses the original Serbian military quick detach collet system. Which locates and fastens on the little ribbed ring around your barrel.

Google turns up some spooky looking dudes rocking a suppressor that looks like it on a Skorpion.

I'm looking at one of the guns I have, same manufacturer, and I see a ring on it, like this one. I need to pull it from the safe but pretty sure that is the ring.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/675533116

And the ring looks the same from what is almost certainly an SMG turned into a parts kit:

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/676394922

I'd call them before buying it but this looks like a great way to waste nearly a grand for my SBR Scorpion/Skorpion.

# ? Jul 31, 2017 19:42

SirDrinksAlot: Aug 6, 2006; The wicked flee when none pursueth

Sten Freak posted:

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/673447796

HMMMM

It says it screws onto military style barrels using the ring on it

Google turns up some spooky looking dudes rocking a suppressor that looks like it on a Skorpion.

I'm looking at one of the guns I have, same manufacturer, and I see a ring on it, like this one. I need to pull it from the safe but pretty sure that is the ring.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/675533116

And the ring looks the same from what is almost certainly an SMG turned into a parts kit:

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/676394922

I'd call them before buying it but this looks like a great way to waste nearly a grand for my SBR Scorpion/Skorpion.

My Vz61 is a d-tecknik and has a ring around the base of the barrel.

I'm probably gonna get mine threaded and attach a three lug to it though.

# ? Jul 31, 2017 20:12

Sten Freak: Sep 10, 2008; Despite all of these shortcomings, the Sten still has a long track record of shooting people right in the face.; College Slice

SirDrinksAlot posted:

My Vz61 is a d-tecknik and has a ring around the base of the barrel.

I'm probably gonna get mine threaded and attach a three lug to it though.

OK that pretty much confirms it. I read an article where it said all they did was take out the rate reducer and FA parts and not put a stock on it when they made the pistols so the barrel should in theory be the same as the military ones. The description just made me wonder.

You planning on a 9mm can for use with other guns or a dedicated 32 one?

# ? Jul 31, 2017 20:32

SirDrinksAlot: Aug 6, 2006; The wicked flee when none pursueth

Sten Freak posted:

OK that pretty much confirms it. I read an article where it said all they did was take out the rate reducer and FA parts and not put a stock on it when they made the pistols so the barrel should in theory be the same as the military ones. The description just made me wonder.

You planning on a 9mm can for use with other guns or a dedicated 32 one?

9mm can, probably gonna be an Omega 9k to keep it nice and light.

ETA: The only issue with that is I've read is that the .32acp barrels may not have enough meat on it to thread. I haven't seriously looked at it yet, so that suppressor you posted may be the only option.

# ? Jul 31, 2017 21:17

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# ? Apr 13, 2021 15:37

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; by FactsAreUseless; Nap Ghost

Thanks for reposting a bunch of this info; your thread from years ago was good.

I keep re-catching the M2 Carbine bug once in a while, despite how dumb such a purchase would be.

# ? Jul 31, 2017 22:05

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > The Firing Range > NFA Firearms Information and Discussion: Philately will get you nowhere

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