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Pitre
Jul 29, 2003



I've purchased several guns from Gunbroker but I never browsed the NFA items pages. That link took me to some insane cool stuff to look at.

I love the MP5 and got to shoot a legal one occasionally from a friend of my dad's around 30 years ago that was safe-semi-tri-full and it was SO much fun. Holy shitola they are selling for $50,000+ on Gunbroker! The guy's I shot was a doctor so I guess that's a doctor money gun. I'll have to settle for a GSG clone some day and just pull the trigger fast hah.

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ilkhan
Oct 7, 2004

Life Before Death
Strength Before Weakness
Journey Before Destination


Pitre posted:

I've purchased several guns from Gunbroker but I never browsed the NFA items pages. That link took me to some insane cool stuff to look at.

I love the MP5 and got to shoot a legal one occasionally from a friend of my dad's around 30 years ago that was safe-semi-tri-full and it was SO much fun. Holy shitola they are selling for $50,000+ on Gunbroker! The guy's I shot was a doctor so I guess that's a doctor money gun. I'll have to settle for a GSG clone some day and just pull the trigger fast hah.
MP5 best full auto I've ever shot. But yeah, expensive as hell. Scorpion burst/full was good, but not as smooth. My semi-joke on the MP5 was you could shoot it one handed at 7-10 yards and get one semi-ragged hole in the target.

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


The PTR ones claim to be "full auto ready", does that mean you could drop a registered trigger/sear pack in and it would work?

How exactly does that work, I thought modifying an MP5 to accept a full-auto trigger pack turned it into a machine gun (similar to how drilling the third hole turns on AR-15 into a machine gun, the gun itself becomes a machine gun so you can't do it even if you own a pack). Is it just the fact that it comes that way from the factory?

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Feb 4, 2021

Dr. Gojo Shioji
Apr 22, 2004



Pitre posted:

I love the MP5 and got to shoot a legal one occasionally from a friend of my dad's around 30 years ago that was safe-semi-tri-full and it was SO much fun. Holy shitola they are selling for $50,000+ on Gunbroker! The guy's I shot was a doctor so I guess that's a doctor money gun.

They were a lot less expensive 30 years ago. There are ad scans floating around from F. J. Vollmer & Company in the late 1980s/early 1990s that still sold legally converted HK94s for $1600 ($3700 in today's money), as well as a few places selling registered sears for $600 ($1400 in today's money). Those prices aren't anything to sneeze at, especially since expendable income was generally tighter back in the day, but they're less than a tenth of today's market prices (about 1/20th for the registered sear).





Paul MaudDib posted:

The PTR ones claim to be "full auto ready", does that mean you could drop a registered trigger/sear pack in and it would work?

How exactly does that work, I thought modifying an MP5 to accept a full-auto trigger pack turned it into a machine gun (similar to how drilling the third hole turns on AR-15 into a machine gun, the gun itself becomes a machine gun so you can't do it even if you own a pack). Is it just the fact that it comes that way from the factory?

That just means that it uses a full-auto bolt carrier. A lot of MP5 clones (and the legitimate SP5 line from H&K) use modified semi-auto-only bolt carriers and have blocks in the receiver that prevent full-auto carriers from fitting. If you have a registered sear/sear pack/trigger group, you would still have to source a full auto carrier and have the blocks removed in those guns to have the full auto functionality work. The other option is getting modified full auto carriers that fit around the blocks. Whereas with the PTR (and almost every other US made MP5 clone), you can drop said sear/sear pack/trigger group onto the gun and have it work.

Dr. Gojo Shioji fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Feb 4, 2021

ilkhan
Oct 7, 2004

Life Before Death
Strength Before Weakness
Journey Before Destination


Paul MaudDib posted:

The PTR ones claim to be "full auto ready", does that mean you could drop a registered trigger/sear pack in and it would work?

How exactly does that work, I thought modifying an MP5 to accept a full-auto trigger pack turned it into a machine gun (similar to how drilling the third hole turns on AR-15 into a machine gun, the gun itself becomes a machine gun so you can't do it even if you own a pack). Is it just the fact that it comes that way from the factory?
The trigger pack is the registered part. So you could drop it into a semi MP5/SP5 and be legal.

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


Dr. Gojo Shioji posted:

That just means that it uses a full-auto bolt carrier. A lot of MP5 clones (and the legitimate SP5 line from H&K) use modified semi-auto-only bolt carriers and have blocks in the receiver that prevent full-auto carriers from fitting. If you have a registered sear/sear pack/trigger group, you would still have to source a full auto carrier and have the blocks removed in those guns to have the full auto functionality work. The other option is getting modified full auto carriers that fit around the blocks. Whereas with the PTR (and almost every other US made MP5 clone), you can drop said sear/sear pack/trigger group onto the gun and have it work.

my understanding though is that removing those blocks makes it a machine gun in itself which you can't do even if you own a sear pack (owning one machine gun doesn't entitle you to make another even if MG "b" is necessary to use MG "a" properly). Just like having the third hole drilled on an AR is the threshold the ATF has defined as "easily convertible to a machine gun" and thus a machine gun itself, even if you don't possess a sear pack (and thus don't have a "complete" machine gun) or even if you do (and thus nominally "should" be able to drop in your part - the host itself is now a separate MG which is illegal).

is that wrong? it seems weird that you could buy the gun manufactured one way and it's fine, but if it's manufactured the other and you modify it to the first way that's illegal. but then again it's NFA logic and that's exactly how it works for, eg, "pistol" vs "rifle" configurations.

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Feb 5, 2021

Dr. Gojo Shioji
Apr 22, 2004



It's a nebulous gray area, and apparently comes down to what other features the gun has to prevent full-auto functionality. For classic HK roller guns, the lower frame/trigger group connects to the upper receiver (the serialized firearm) by a pin in the back (that holds the stock in place) as well as a pin behind the magwell. Since practically forever, the ATF has required that there be a "shelf" added behind the magazine well that would prevent a full-auto lower from attaching to a semi-auto upper. In a lot of cases, that pin hole near the magwell was also removed for the same reason, and the lower would stay in place by holding itself against the blocking shelf. The shelf was and is still a requirement for HK guns, but the ATF in recent years has allowed guns to have that front pin hole if the gun also has an internal block so full-auto carriers don't fit.

Zenith, when they were importing Turkish MP5s, asked the ATF if they could offer the service of removing the carrier blocks once the guns were successfully imported. The ATF said no on the basis that the guns had push-pin lowers and "smaller than original" blocking shelf. By this logic (which you shouldn't follow because of the ATF's legendary mercurial attitude towards their own rulings), the ATF needs one of the following conditions for the serialized upper (the firearm) to be considered a Title 1 firearm:

1.) Large/"original" blocking shelf and no front push-pin (this doesn't need carrier blocks)
2.) "Small" blocking shelf and carrier block (this is allowed to have a front push-pin)

The wording of the ATF's letter to Zenith seems to suggest that if the gun has a "large" blocking shelf, no other features are needed (since Zenith would have been able to remove the carrier blocks if the Z5 had an "original" sized shelf). This is sort-of corroborated by the PTR 9C and 9CT in that it has no carrier block, a "large" shelf, and although it doesn't have a front pin hole, it does have a roll pin all the way through where the pin hole should be. Most other manufacturers seem to use blind pins to hold the paddle mag release in place. The ATF also seems to be stricter with imports than with US made clones. The SP5 has no front push-pin and normal sized shelf, but they still need carrier blocks where a Dakota Tactical/PCS/American clone build doesn't with the same features. And this is all side-stepping the fact that owning a customized full-auto bolt carrier that fits around the blocks is totally legal, anyway.

Long story short, it's a typical goddamn bureaucratic mess and getting a Mother May I letter from the ATF is probably the safest (but not guaranteed) bet on carrier block removal.

JRay88
Jan 4, 2013


The whole area of H&K full auto stuff is such that I want no part of it. Itís all a giant WTF party when it comes to what is and is not allowed as far as converting semi-only guns for registered trigger packs. Thereís even some mystery around wether certain sears were even legally registered to begin with. Things like married sears or mismarked trigger packs.

Unless it was originally sold from the mfr as full auto, itís maybe legal.

Pitre
Jul 29, 2003




Man, blast from the past! I miss the days of Shotgun News and drooling over every page.

E: LOL at $.10cpr for 7.62x39! Those were the days.

I have a Hungarian SA-85M 7.62x39 that had a blonde thumbhole stock and is just a wonderful shooting gun that my dad bought me back in the 80s. I was a stupid stupid kid at the time and replaced the blonde wood for black plastic Dragunov furniture and I had to cut up the upper wood on the gas tube to get the plastic part on. Many years later I realized what a dumbass I was and I couldn't get the original wood to fit back up and tossed it all. I hate myself for that and I can't find anything now that looks even near how good that blonde wood did. It still shoots awesome but I hate ruining the original wood.

Pitre fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Feb 5, 2021

Toshokan
Apr 11, 2008
Prepare yourself for some obtuse logic--->


Are there any QD muzzle devices that work with Quietbore rifle solvent trap kits? I think I saw something about Q Cherry Bombs, but I don't want those.

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
.

Toshokan posted:

Are there any QD muzzle devices that work with Quietbore rifle solvent trap kits? I think I saw something about Q Cherry Bombs, but I don't want those.

As far as I'm aware Quietbore only makes threaded adapters. I bet if you asked they would sell you a blank adapter along with your kit that you could have machined to fit your QD of choice.

MazeOfTzeentch
May 2, 2009

rip miso beno


Yeah QB is only direct thread or cherry bomb (or 3 lug with their 9mm can)

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

I cannot wait until eform4 is a thing

Toshokan
Apr 11, 2008
Prepare yourself for some obtuse logic--->


DarkHorse posted:

I cannot wait until eform4 is a thing

Is there an ETA on that?

Styles Bitchley
Nov 13, 2004

FOR THE WIN FOR THE WIN FOR THE WIN

Toshokan posted:

Is there an ETA on that?

I think two years ago it was two months away.

my kinda ape
Sep 15, 2008

Everything's gonna be A-OK


Oven Wrangler

There was something posted about it being somewhat imminent recently but who knows. Nothing since the thing a month or two ago I think.

Phanatic
Mar 13, 2007

Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.


https://www.facebook.com/NFATCA/posts/4288467284547419

"The NFATCA has worked with ATF for the past 15 years to help speed up the NFA forms process. We are very gratified that significant progress has been made in upgrading the eForms system. Many have already noticed that the system is now available on WEDNESDAYS after 10:00am!
eForm 4 is soon to debut. It will roll out slowly and incrementally. Soon, all users will be able to do the entire process online, including the use of electronic/encrypted fingerprints! And because the process is self-validating, users should be prevented from submitting bad or flawed forms. This is a long time coming and will be very welcome. The ultimate goal will be to get Form 4 approvals in 90 days or less! Stand by for more details!"

Wednesdays after 10am, woooo.

Roll Fizzlebeef
Sep 9, 2003




My e-form 1 from September was finally approved.

John DiFool
Aug 27, 2013



Roll Fizzlebeef posted:

My e-form 1 from September was finally approved.

Thatís exceptionally long for eform 1. Any idea why it got held up?

Roll Fizzlebeef
Sep 9, 2003




John DiFool posted:

That’s exceptionally long for eform 1. Any idea why it got held up?

I am not sure. All of my previous eform 1s were approved in 30 days or so. I forgot about it for a while, so I never called to ask what the problem was.

Styles Bitchley
Nov 13, 2004

FOR THE WIN FOR THE WIN FOR THE WIN

Looking at a .30 can to mount on various rifles from AKs to bolt guns to 5.56 AR-15s. Not direct thread. Price is a consideration, looking at Rugged Razor vs YHM Resonator R2. Any thoughts between the two? The YHM is a little cheaper.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Ok the fact that the whole NFA system uses Ďtaxí stamps is so silly to me. Did the office that handled Ďtaxí stamps historically ever fall under the IRS?

JRay88
Jan 4, 2013


Iím pretty sure up until the ATF was founded it actually was a part of the department of revenue. Then with the creation of the ATF it moved under their purview.

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
.

It was set up that way because at the time there was doubt about the federal government's ability to regulate things that were not considered interstate commerce. The one thing that the federal government can absolutely do is levy taxes, so by making it a tax they were able to sidestep the state sovereignty question.

poeticoddity
Jan 14, 2007
"How nice - to feel nothing and still get full credit for being alive." - Kurt Vonnegut Jr. - Slaughterhouse Five

Firearms weren't the only things where tax stamps were used to sidestep constitutionality concerns with federal regulations, either. A lot of how marijuana ended up prohibited, logistically, was telling people they had to have stamps and just not selling the stamps.

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
.

Welp, my suppressor Form 1 was disapproved because the serial number on the Form 1 didn't match the number on the Form 23 RPQ. It's correct on the copy I have saved, and eForms is down right now so I can't look at the application and see if I maybe uploaded the wrong file or something.

If they made a mistake and the forms are correct, can they correct the existing Form 1 and approve it, or do I have to resubmit?

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

fatman1683 posted:

Welp, my suppressor Form 1 was disapproved because the serial number on the Form 1 didn't match the number on the Form 23 RPQ. It's correct on the copy I have saved, and eForms is down right now so I can't look at the application and see if I maybe uploaded the wrong file or something.

If they made a mistake and the forms are correct, can they correct the existing Form 1 and approve it, or do I have to resubmit?

I had that happen to me, use Ask an Expert and I don't think you'll have to resubmit

Or they'll tell you to resubmit, but you can use the fingerprints you sent the first time. The agent will tell you what they want

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
.

DarkHorse posted:

I had that happen to me, use Ask an Expert and I don't think you'll have to resubmit

Or they'll tell you to resubmit, but you can use the fingerprints you sent the first time. The agent will tell you what they want

I was able to get them on the phone yesterday, Rebecca is the Form 1 Lady apparently and can do All The Things (if you can get ahold of her). It looks like something weird happened with my RPQ files and all of the form fields were being truncated. This didn't happen with my SBR Form 1, but v0v.

The takeaway is to flatten your forms before you sign them, if you're going to sign them electronically and submit that way instead of printing, signing, and scanning.

boxen
Feb 20, 2011


When I SBR'd my lower through e-forms, I had the examiner call me on a Saturday morning because there was some issue with the serial I put in. They asked me to take a picture of it and add it to my application online, and then it went through a few days later as I remember.

At the time, I was super impressed that they'd not just reject it, and call me on a Saturday to straighten it out.

Maybe it's like a lot of other things, where sometimes it's a pain in the rear end and you'll get rejected for little things, but every so often you'll get someone super competent who can smooth everything through *shrug*

my kinda ape
Sep 15, 2008

Everything's gonna be A-OK


Oven Wrangler

The NFA branch works 7 days a week and seems pretty good about helping with weird quirks with the system. Never hurts to contact them if you have a question or problem.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


What are some big MG forums? Relatively speaking I'm sure the Venne diagram of MG owners and Internet forum user is very small.

MazelTovCocktail
Jun 23, 2012

Gritty's gonna cut you.


Shaocaholica posted:

What are some big MG forums? Relatively speaking I'm sure the Venne diagram of MG owners and Internet forum user is very small.

I seem to recall and NFA Talk forum, but the king of mg boards was some hilariously low tech thing that looked like a predecessor (tech wise) to 4chan. Honestly canít recall the name for the life, but it was the mg board, hopefully someone here will recall it, assuming itís even still around.

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
.

MazelTovCocktail posted:

I seem to recall and NFA Talk forum, but the king of mg boards was some hilariously low tech thing that looked like a predecessor (tech wise) to 4chan. Honestly canít recall the name for the life, but it was the mg board, hopefully someone here will recall it, assuming itís even still around.

Boards.net maybe? That's where the Form 1 Suppressor community lives.

The Automator
Jan 16, 2009


Probably subguns. Itís was bought out by someone last year and has changed completely, but there are old die hards who run snugbus.com in its stead

MazelTovCocktail
Jun 23, 2012

Gritty's gonna cut you.


The Automator posted:

Probably subguns. Itís was bought out by someone last year and has changed completely, but there are old die hards who run snugbus.com in its stead

Yep that was the one I was thinking of.

Also snugbus sounds like a spin-off of bang bus.

Phanatic
Mar 13, 2007

Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.


Uzitalk.com forums are reasonably active.

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/

ChesterJT
Dec 28, 2003

Crescent Fresh




Got a 9mm pistol can ordered that comes with piston/Nielson. I've heard you should take off the piston and put a direct thread end on for non-tilting and rifles to reduce wear on it which makes sense. Is that still an issue if I'm throwing it on something like a 22lr rifle that will have minimum recoil? From what I'm reading the bigger issue would be the spring assembly getting dirty as hell.

Toshokan
Apr 11, 2008
Prepare yourself for some obtuse logic--->


ChesterJT posted:

Got a 9mm pistol can ordered that comes with piston/Nielson. I've heard you should take off the piston and put a direct thread end on for non-tilting and rifles to reduce wear on it which makes sense. Is that still an issue if I'm throwing it on something like a 22lr rifle that will have minimum recoil? From what I'm reading the bigger issue would be the spring assembly getting dirty as hell.

The reason you need the piston on 9mm pistols is that most are recoil operated and involve some kind of movement of the barrel to unlock once the slide has traveled back far enough. This is what delays the opening of the action to allow the pressure drop enough to be safe to open and then eject the cartridge and chamber a new one. A direct thread can on the end often throws off the physical enough to inhibit this cycle.

There generally isn't a similar issue with simple blowback firearms like nearly all .22lr pistols and rifles. The recoil and pressure are so much lower that these firearms operate safely by just using the sheer mass of the slide, bolt, etc to delay the opening enough to be at safe pressure levels. This means that you can direct thread cans onto them without needing a piston.

ChesterJT
Dec 28, 2003

Crescent Fresh





Thanks but I got all that. And the 22 rifle in this case is a bolt action. What I'm asking is if there's a chance of damaging the piston by using it on the 22 rifle rather than using a direct thread.

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Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006


I think the concern is you're going to damage the can with each shot compressing the spring and then it snapping out to full extension again. That hammering with every shot is the issue. They make an "adapter" which fits over the nielson device to stop everything from moving if you don't want to use a fixed adapter.

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