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business hammocks posted:Wasn’t the whole point of the joke that wrestling is fake? Did 70s people not know that wrestling is fake? I think people knew but the wrestling world was far more committed to keeping kayfabe at all times until like, 10 years ago
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Jul 22, 2018 14:41
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Most people knew that wrestling was fake since like the 40s. They ran a poll somewhere in the south in the early 70s asking if people thought wrestling was real or fake, and one of the local promoters was sure they’d think it was real. It was like 97% knew it was fake. Anyway here’s lawler talking about the Jim Carey stuff. He was apparently already crazy back then https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrPDJQOZ0yY
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Jul 22, 2018 14:41
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Henchman of Santa posted:I think people knew but the wrestling world was far more committed to keeping kayfabe at all times until like, 10 years ago Given that the Undertaker was supposedly drawing strength from a magical urn as far back as 1990, I'm pretty sure they gave up on insisting it was real more than ten years ago.
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Jul 22, 2018 14:49
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Tiggum posted:Given that the Undertaker was supposedly drawing strength from a magical urn as far back as 1990, I'm pretty sure they gave up on insisting it was real more than ten years ago. Everyone knows it is fake, but they're there for the spectacle of it. It's a show, live and in color, and the audience is looking to be entertained.
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Jul 22, 2018 14:54
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I remember summer camp in the 80's and saying wrestling was fake was fighting words. Also Trump was actually worried Vince McMahon died when his limo was blown up for Monday Night Raw. https://www.complex.com/sports/2016/12/donald-trump-thought-vince-mcmahon-died-staged-monday-night-raw-stunt So most wrestling fans know it's fake. But the ones who can't tell whether it's real or not are 12 year old boys and the President of the United States.
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Jul 22, 2018 14:56
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Aesop Poprock posted:Most people knew that wrestling was fake since like the 40s. They ran a poll somewhere in the south in the early 70s asking if people thought wrestling was real or fake, and one of the local promoters was sure they’d think it was real. It was like 97% knew it was fake. Does anyone else think that Jim acted like such as rear end in a top hat just to make the letterman scene slap really sting?
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Jul 22, 2018 14:57
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Tiggum posted:Given that the Undertaker was supposedly drawing strength from a magical urn as far back as 1990, I'm pretty sure they gave up on insisting it was real more than ten years ago. Absolutely, but there was more of a "magicians don't reveal their secrets" vibe about it, even during interviews and more documentary-type material. They started being more transparent about it around the time Linda McMahon ran for office. Sir Lemming has a new favorite as of 15:11 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 15:04
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Yeah which is why certain Indie wrestlers/groups are doing so well right now because they’ve adopted a meta version of wrestling where it’s entirely 4th wall breaking at some points but the action is either serious or winking at the camera, which is why the Bullet Club just managed to sell out a 10,000+ seat arena based off their brand instead of based off a company
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Jul 22, 2018 15:10
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business hammocks posted:Wasn’t the whole point of the joke that wrestling is fake? Did 70s people not know that wrestling is fake? Most, yes. But the ones who didn't could be a bit rowdy. NSFW warning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKSAf_aMl-E These stories are mid-1980s. RC and Moon Pie has a new favorite as of 15:15 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 15:12
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Man On The Moon annoyed the poo poo out of me. If the real Kaufman was half as obnoxious as Carrey portrayed him, his getting booted from SNL is completely unsurprising.
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Jul 22, 2018 15:45
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Just watched an episode of Cheers from Season 1 where one of Sam's old teammates comes out as gay in his memoirs, and Sam has no idea because he didn't read the book, even after holding a book signing in the bar. Everyone then spends the rest of the episode fretting that Cheers will become a gay bar. It was so uncomfortable to watch that I actually couldn't finish it. Talk about not aging well...
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Jul 22, 2018 15:47
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Aesop Poprock posted:Yeah which is why certain Indie wrestlers/groups are doing so well right now because they’ve adopted a meta version of wrestling where it’s entirely 4th wall breaking at some points but the action is either serious or winking at the camera, which is why the Bullet Club just managed to sell out a 10,000+ seat arena based off their brand instead of based off a company And the thing I like about that is how it raises the bar for getting behind the scenes, so you have to be super committed to even bother trying. It makes it much easier to just ignore the question of what's real and what isn't and just enjoy it for whatever it is. If you can never tell what the truth is then there's no point trying so just relax and let yourself be entertained.
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Jul 22, 2018 15:56
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walrusman posted:Man On The Moon annoyed the poo poo out of me. If the real Kaufman was half as obnoxious as Carrey portrayed him, his getting booted from SNL is completely unsurprising. For what it's worth basically everyone who worked with Kaufman said that the movie is bullshit and he didn't actually keep the act going behind the scenes (see the Lawler discussion in thread.) There's a documentary on Netflix about the making of Man on the Moon. Jim Carrey is a loving psycho 
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Jul 22, 2018 16:01
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Leavemywife posted:Everyone knows it is fake, but they're there for the spectacle of it. It's a show, live and in color, and the audience is looking to be entertained. Yeah, people generally knew it was fake but that didn't really stop the producers from absolutely insisting it was real. That was a big chunk of kayfabe; they were totally pushing the idea that it was real because they figured it mattered. In more recent years they realized that people don't actually give a poo poo if it's real or not for exactly that reason. It's a show. It's a particular brand of theater and nobody cares that theater is fake as hell because, well, it's theater.
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Jul 22, 2018 16:17
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Straight White Shark posted:Jim Carrey is a loving psycho he has killed, and will again.
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Jul 22, 2018 17:11
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SNL ages poorly because almost all of the writing is 100% satire of its time; like listening to an old Henny Youngman bit or some of Carlin and Murphy's gay material. Stand up suffers a lot from this too. I think SNL, overall, has aged rather well and benefits from being able to cull specific classic skits together into anthologies. It's always been hit or miss, even at its high points, but it's delivered so much classic comedy it's hard for me to hate on it. You have a valid point though.
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Jul 22, 2018 17:56
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Straight White Shark posted:For what it's worth basically everyone who worked with Kaufman said that the movie is bullshit and he didn't actually keep the act going behind the scenes (see the Lawler discussion in thread.) Yeah the impression I get is that A. Carrey thought that Kauffman was like his character 24/7 B. He's one of those super duper nutso method actors like Jared Leto who doesn't turn off his performance until after the movie is finished being made. These two facts combine into him being a masdive obnoxious weirdo the entire production. Kauffman really was a comic genius however. Like when he was first starting to get noticed he kept doing a bit of being his shy foreigner character, with the main jokes being lousy impressions in character, and Bob Zmuda heckling him in the audience. He was kinda funny but his unknown nature also endured him and made it seem real. Then on a stand up special that he was part of he says he's going to do an impression of Elvis--who was still alive, and impersonation hasn't blown up as a thing for his cult yet...and then Andy puts on a wig, reveals he's wearing a jumpsuit, and absolutely knocks it out of the park out of nowhere. It was such a genius move and amazing payoff for such a long gag.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:02
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Next thing you'll be telling me that Scooby Doo isn't real.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:06
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Tony Gunk posted:Just watched an episode of Cheers from Season 1 where one of Sam's old teammates comes out as gay in his memoirs, and Sam has no idea because he didn't read the book, even after holding a book signing in the bar. When the regulars threaten to find another bar, Sam tells them to do so because everyone is welcome to come to Cheers. Diane informs them that there have been two gay men in the bar the whole time they were arguing. The two men kiss Norm on the cheeks and he declares that it was better than Vera. Considering the time, it actually wasn't that bad compared to 70s TV portrayal of gay men as being the swishy, limp-wristed, lispy types.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:12
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Tony Gunk posted:Just watched an episode of Cheers from Season 1 where one of Sam's old teammates comes out as gay in his memoirs, and Sam has no idea because he didn't read the book, even after holding a book signing in the bar. Isn’t that the one where, at the end, they make a point to the effect of “you can’t tell who is gay just by looking; gay people were/are already in here all the time. get over it”? It’s been awhile since I’ve seen it, but it seemed reasonably progressive for the time. On the other hand, my mind could be manufacturing poo poo because I like Cheers and want it to be a decent show. e: soundly beaten.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:17
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Cheers has some bad spots like when Sam and Diane start smacking each other.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:18
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Choco1980 posted:Yeah the impression I get is that A. Carrey thought that Kauffman was like his character 24/7 B. He's one of those super duper nutso method actors like Jared Leto who doesn't turn off his performance until after the movie is finished being made. These two facts combine into him being a masdive obnoxious weirdo the entire production. He really did blaze new ground in comedy. He pretty much invented anti-humor as we know it. The foreign guy gag where he did terrible impressions would even lead to the audience ripping on him but then he'd break out in tears to get sympathy. He was a masterful performer that could work an audience like crazy. The "I'm going to read to you fuckers" thing came around when he was on Taxi. People kept asking him to do Latka on stage but he pretty specifically said that if he gets asked that he's instead going to read really boring classic novels. He made good on that one; that wasn't him being funny that was the fact that he actually despised sitcoms. The only reason he was willing to play Latka was because they gave the character multiple personality disorder so Kaufman could just do whatever he wanted with it in any given episode. Part of his thing was to just keep the audience guessing as to what he hell he'd do next. Interestingly he didn't really consider himself a comedian, specifically; more of just an entertainer. He wasn't going for only laughs. The best thing he did I think was Tony Clifton. He'd dress up as a terrible lounge singer and open for himself. A lot of people actually thought Tony was a completely separate person and he managed to keep that ruse up for quite a long time.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:23
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Tiggum posted:Given that the Undertaker was supposedly drawing strength from a magical urn as far back as 1990, I'm pretty sure they gave up on insisting it was real more than ten years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruLQDpdQi4A weirdly, wrestling promoters still fully insisted that all this was real for a while but i'm sure they gave up on people actually believing them at their word back in the 40s - it's just that all this chicanery is part of the spectacle that is sports entertainment
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Jul 22, 2018 18:34
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Choco1980 posted:
Even still, his material screams "artiste performer", who is absolutely baffled and offended by the people looking for a "cheap laugh" or liking something that is popular. Like those people in arts and acting schools who want to "rescue the public from themselves" and makes anti-humor only some weird-beards get, and being constantly baffled and surprised on why the larger audience does not like or get them. Its also not like the audience is not intelligent enough to appreciate the artist; for example Picasso and Dali were popular and even populist as gently caress, after they found their style that hit big. Keep the facade of the weird performance artist long enough, and you will be remember as 'that weird one which only the weirds ones liked'. ...Or get kicked out of your tenure-job as the national university of arts rector by finally convincing the theater students to throw actual human poo poo to the audience, because they did not like the modern art performances, and liked to watch police procedural shows from TV. While making two TV-series with public funding, which seriously offended most audiences and were used as an criticism on why the tax-payers need to fund his stupid antics or the university of arts and theather. Der Kyhe has a new favorite as of 18:44 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 18:42
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The best part of Tony Clifton is that half the time (possibly more) it wasn't even Kauffman under the makeup, but his right hand man Zmuda.
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Jul 22, 2018 19:37
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Der Kyhe posted:...Or get kicked out of your tenure-job as the national university of arts rector by finally convincing the theater students to throw actual human poo poo to the audience, because they did not like the modern art performances, and liked to watch police procedural shows from TV. While making two TV-series with public funding, which seriously offended most audiences and were used as an criticism on why the tax-payers need to fund his stupid antics or the university of arts and theather. Uh.......... what?
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Jul 22, 2018 19:39
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Uh.......... what? Ah yeah, this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jouko_Turkka Started as a sort-of Kaufmanescue "you really cannot predict anything what is going to happen", escalated into a complete insanity. Personal cults and stuff. Edit: Similar, but obviously much smaller scale, sort-of nationally known anti-performance-artiste, who decided to make fun of the people who like popular TV series, or liked to go to the theater to see actually normal plays and such. Der Kyhe has a new favorite as of 19:54 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 19:47
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Der Kyhe posted:...Or get kicked out of your tenure-job as the national university of arts rector by finally convincing the theater students to throw actual human poo poo to the audience, because they did not like the modern art performances, and liked to watch police procedural shows from TV. While making two TV-series with public funding, which seriously offended most audiences and were used as an criticism on why the tax-payers need to fund his stupid antics or the university of arts and theather. Is this a specific example because if it is I need to know more RIGHT THE gently caress NOW Edit: Note to self, refresh before posting Hattie Masters has a new favorite as of 20:37 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 20:34
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Der Kyhe posted:Even still, his material screams "artiste performer", who is absolutely baffled and offended by the people looking for a "cheap laugh" or liking something that is popular. Like those people in arts and acting schools who want to "rescue the public from themselves" and makes anti-humor only some weird-beards get, and being constantly baffled and surprised on why the larger audience does not like or get them. I like this discussion about Kauffman. Have we ever had a Kauffman thread? Where would we put it? Kauffman's schtick has aged really well I think and has only gotten better over time Sacha Baron Cohen is the closest thing I can think of as a comparison in a modern sense. Andy wasn't FUNNY, really, but he was a genius. Perfectly tailored for wrestling actually. He got those wrestling hicks to hate his loving guts and conned half the world into believing that the poo poo he did with Jerry Lawler and that episode of Fridays was real. He was very good on Taxi also but like someone else said, HATED cheap laughs, catch phrases and shallow sitcoms and was probably terrified of being limited like that. It'd be like if anyone who saw Robin Williams only wanted him to do "Shazbot" and "nannoo-nanooo" for the rest of his life. We all saw what Williams went on to do before he killed himself. Andy rightfully resisted becoming Bart's "I didn't do it" one liner persona and obviously had far bigger ideas but back then no one could understand that. I think if Andy were around today he'd fit in perfectly with the YouTube celebrity culture and the Barnum and Bailey nature of reality TV. He was way ahead of his time.
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Jul 22, 2018 22:25
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BiggerBoat posted:I like this discussion about Kauffman. Have we ever had a Kauffman thread? Where would we put it? I really really enjoy your comment. Yes, I guess that Andy Kauffman didn't actually understand the limits where he could take his talent, and somewhat overdid his thing. But Sacha Baron Cohen really is the new guy to get his ideas. Because he knew where Andy simmered out; being too weird all the time, every time. So he changes characters, and actually also interviews as himself sometimes. And I also liked Andy in Taxi and also in his other pieces, if you wonder if I hate the guy. He just overdid his thing and burned out his 15 minutes of fame trying to become the slow-burn comedian.
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Jul 22, 2018 22:35
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The sad part is Kaufman dying before he could ever show up at Wrestlemania.
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Jul 22, 2018 23:38
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burial posted:TV Episodes that Did Not Age Well: Assassin’s Creed Screed Feed. TV Episodes that Did Not Age Well: Assassin’s Creed Screed Feed: Formerly Chuck's 
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Jul 22, 2018 23:46
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John Murdoch posted:TV Episodes that Did Not Age Well: Assassin’s Creed Screed Feed: Formerly Chuck's  Well played, captain.
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Jul 22, 2018 23:51
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Krispy Wafer posted:I remember summer camp in the 80's and saying wrestling was fake was fighting words. Fun fact: when Trump bought WWE in a storyline leading up to a match at Wrestlemania between wrestlers that both Trump and McMahon picked, WWE's stock (they've been publicly traded for a while now) was actually hurt because enough people thought Trump was really buying WWE due to the media coverage the event was getting, since Wrestlemania typically gets covered by major media outlets as a fluff piece. Donald ended up picking a black wrestler, which is hilarious in hindsight. He was being interviewed to plug the show and couldn't remember the guy's name (Bobby Lashley) and referred to the wrestler as the "the black one". BiggerBoat posted:I like this discussion about Kauffman. Have we ever had a Kauffman thread? Where would we put it? Rapidly Going Deaf has a stand up thread. Maybe there? Or Cinema Discusso. It's funny that you mention Andy disliked cheap laughs, because when he appeared in Memphis Wrestling (arguably the hottest territory in the country at the time, outside *MAYBE* New York City, Minneapolis and Dallas ), he used what's referred to in wrestling as "cheap heat". He'd insult the locals by implying they were inbred smelly rednecks (he once did a segment where he tried to sell them on the concept of soap). Additionally his whole inter-gender wrestling thing was basically to set up the idea that a man would clean his clock, which is fantastically sexist, of course. If he'd gay baited he'd have the holy trinity of cheap heat, really. Hell, he even did a variation on evil foreigner, in a sense; since he'd constantly put over that he was from Hollywood and he was a better class of person, which isn't much different than an evil Russian doing the same. That said, you could argue it was a case of knowing your audience since this was a territory where 50/60's heel (bad guy) Sputnik Monroe got heat for hanging out in the black side of town and talking about it in interviews. Wrestling is fascinating if you can get by some of the grossness of the subtext. Interestingly, a survey was done not too long ago among people who watched any kind of wrestling on TV and I think like 55% of those who responded voted Democrat, which surprised me somewhat. El Gallinero Gros has a new favorite as of 00:01 on Jul 23, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 23:57
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They had the lowest voter turnout though
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Jul 23, 2018 00:27
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Henchman of Santa posted:They had the lowest voter turnout though
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Jul 23, 2018 00:37
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Wrestling viewers have mostly changed from angry right wing hicks to left-ish cultist internet nerds in the last 15 years or so, it’s been an interesting transition
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Jul 23, 2018 00:54
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Aesop Poprock posted:Wrestling viewers have mostly changed from angry right wing hicks to left-ish cultist internet nerds in the last 15 years or so, it’s been an interesting transition And along those same lines, the wrestlers themselves have changed from stereotypical jocks, 'alpha males', and the like, into, well... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ine-ZApwF8 A bunch of nerds and geeks. It's great.
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Jul 23, 2018 01:01
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Vandar posted:And along those same lines, the wrestlers themselves have changed from stereotypical jocks, 'alpha males', and the like, into, well... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfdIGG36GgU
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Jul 23, 2018 01:06
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Vandar posted:And along those same lines, the wrestlers themselves have changed from stereotypical jocks, 'alpha males', and the like, into, well... Two of the people considered the top wrestlers in the world are bisexual nerds called the Golden Lovers and people loving love them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF59IZ3YvL8
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Jul 23, 2018 01:09
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