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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

Frasier's a bit of an odd case in that there's a fair few gay and drag jokes that don't really age well, and camp stereotypes- not to mention a running gag of one or both of the brothers being thought to be gay- but also a decent amount of gay characters being treated respectfully, at least as people if not by Frasier. A number of the cast were gay behind the scenes, maybe that contributed?

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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

I dunno, the idiot future didn't seem like too bad a place to live so long as you've got someone with common sense keeping the infrastructure going. Universal healthcare, automated infrastructure, and a President who actually seems to care about people and is willing to listen to others for solutions to the people's problems.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

mind the walrus posted:

The Gamergate episode of Law and Order SVU was 100% dated on arrival and it's impressively terrible even if you don't give the slightest gently caress about Gamergate (like a normal person).

They even managed to be impressively terrible about the message, which is basically 'Video games are owned entirely by angry white males hostile to anything female, being a woman game designer will get you assaulted and raped' and showed game conventions as places where women are constantly subject to misogynistic harassment. It's basically telling women to give up and run away.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

Can Trill be used as a trans metaphor?

It got weird when it turned out that Kurzon mentored Jadzia but broke it off because he had the hots for her. And then half of him moved into her body. I'm sure that's someone's fetish. ...wait, that's basically the origin of the original Hermaphrodite.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

Hyrax Attack! posted:

Can we mention episodes that have aged incredibly well? On DS9 they had the two part episodes Homefront and Paradise Lost. The Earth of the Federation is a post-scarcity utopia where people can pretty much do whatever they want, which in the fiction leads to mostly constructive activity advancing civilization, and not locking themselves in holodecks.

This is threatened after a conference on Earth is bombed by the mysterious shape shifting Founders. The Founders are a threat that can impersonate and infiltrate anywhere, and this places the Federation in a perilous state as everyone is suspect. The Federation begins implementing martial law on Earth and their opportunistic military uses the crisis to take power from the civilian government. There is fear that the Founders could be anywhere, and they have no known home world or bases upon which to retaliate. This climaxes with Starfleet ships firing on each other out of fear.

As the Earth frantically tries to enact countermeasures to stop the shapeshifters, their ideas include low-level phaser fields (ineffective against intelligent foes) and blood tests (easy to fool). These extra security steps erode freedoms, and soldiers with phaser rifles become a common sight on Earth.

The Founders are able to have a spectacular success at undermining the bedrock ideals of the Federation in exchange by sowing fear, despite (as we learn) they had almost no actual presence on Earth aside from a handful of infiltrators. The message is the real damage was done by a willingness of Earth to exchange liberty for security theater and cede power to the military.

These aired in 1996, and were depressingly prescient.

With the priceless bit where an obvious Founder, taking the form of O'Brien (because that would be the most hilarious option) walks up to Sisko in a park, knowing Sisko knows the real O'Brien is light years away back at Deep Space Nine, and basically goes 'There's three of us on the whole drat planet not counting the friendly one and you're going this nuts, crazy eh?' Also Sisko's dad, who otherwise seems like he belongs in an entirely different show than Star Trek, figures out how Changelings could easily fool blood tests.

And of course it's the star pupil cadets who unthinkingly and proudly follow orders to sabotage the planet's defenses. Just as well that they all die from their own hubris later on.

Speaking of DS9, Kira's whole deal is basically 'drat right I was a terrorist, I was right to do it, and I'd do it again!' And then she ends up teaching terrorist/resistance tactics to the same people she used them against.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

RareAcumen posted:

I still remember Catdog looking pretty decent.

That show's probably aged worst of all, it was already super mean-spirited when it aired.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

Married With Children kinda cheated by portraying pretty much everyone as terrible people in every way they possibly could.

And in retrospect, 90s Nick prepared us well for adult life in portraying it as a Kafkaesque surreal nightmare where everyone with a modicum of power is out to gently caress you over for the pettiest perceived gain and expect you to smile while they do it.

Though I do fondly recall the Catdog episode with the action figures that's basically a big and accurate Beanie Babies spoof, which is a pretty good lesson on why the collector's market for anything is a racket.

Ghost Leviathan has a new favorite as of 06:36 on Aug 5, 2017

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

doverhog posted:

Just give it a few years, there's gonna be a lot people both dying and getting killed over countries near the equator becoming uninhabitable.

It's already happening, see Syria.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

Rugrats is a lot funnier whenever they focus on the parents.

And the comic strips are better than they have any possible right to be.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

I only saw the Disney Doug, and loosely recall the first episode mentioning a ton of changes going around, including Doug's old hairdresser being bought out, and of course Roger suddenly getting loaded.

There were some Disney Adventures comics of it (Not sure how many were adaptations of episodes, if any) that had some interesting themes; Doug enters a ceramic gravy boat he made himself in a science/crafts competition, starts taking people's suggestions and ended up with a handheld gravy cannon and backpack tank, til he decides to just go with his original plan and wins the contest. (and the gravy cannon gets an Honorable Mention, which makes everyone who gave suggestions happy) And there was a bit of a theme with the newly rich Roger and Bebe having what amount to New Money/Old Money conflicts.

While we're on cartoons; the Jumanji cartoon, made by the same people who did Duckman (the art style is very distinctive) was better than it had any right to be, and even- almost unheard of for a 90s carton- got a proper finale. Also, basically just see http://www.bogleech.com/jumanji.html

Also speaking of comics; check out the Rugrats comic strips, they're a bit like Peanuts but with even more existential terror. And Chuckie is one depressed toddler.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

muscles like this! posted:

Disney's Doug really screwed up everything that made the show unique. Like was previously mentioned Doug was supposed to be a show about a normal kid having normal kid problems and then Disney's Doug started and everything started becoming completely outlandish.


Nah, Mr Frond is a callback to a character that was used in King of the Hill (there's a lot of overlap behind the scenes.) Hank ends up having to go to an anger management class and the teacher looks like this:

He was played by David Herman, who also voices Mr Frond.

There is a loosely implied shared universe given Hank Hill and Daria got their start on Beavis and Butthead.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

The Bionic Woman remake started out kinda promising, but was a major victim of the writer's strike given the plot basically fell down the plughole halfway through the first season.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

That a lot of them coincided with the writers' strike probably didn't help either.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

Ahhh Real Monsters was one of the better takes on gross-out humour the 90s was big on, but there's not a whole hell of a lot else to it.

The parallel society of monsters had its interesting moments, though they didn't do a lot with that.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

EEE is definitely the odd one out of that list; it's generally considered to have aged pretty drat well. One of those shows where they kinda sidestep datedness/setting issues by having everything be randomly anachronistic with technology and culture all the time, though the lack of phones and internet are still a giveaway.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

mind the walrus posted:

EEE was still being made by people who didn't know how those things affected childhood yet.

Also I don't care how much people hate it for being edgy, but I love the EEE theory that the whole show is some weird purgatory and every kid is someone on that cul de sac who died at a different time point during the 20th Century.

It is one of those shows where every character basically has their own aesthetic, with Ed's grungy horror-obsessed deal being something out of the early to mid 90s, while Eddy's room and preferred decor is very 70s. (And not even starting on Rolf) Kevin is very outdoorsy 90s as well. Though I like to think Eddy just has a bunch of his parents' old 70s stuff they were going to throw out and took a liking to it.

Also notable given it's a show that very strictly sticks to its economy cast; the only animated characters on-screen are the cul-de-sac kids, the Kankers and Rolf's livestock. Even when they have episodes in school, only the cul-de-sac kids are ever seen. The only exception is the movie.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

Dr Christmas posted:

Anthony Michael Hall getting detention for bringing a flare gun to school is weird now, but I honestly can't figure out of Christian Slater in Heathers firing a gun with blanks in school and getting off scott free is a more or less relevant bit of satire now than it was when it was released.

Heathers is just loving crazy to watch now, though it was pretty much that from the beginning.

The whole thing is a brutal satire on teenage suicide and mental health issues and how parents and schools are both disinterested in and miserably incompetent at actually dealing with them, and I don't think that's an iota less relevant. The desperate need to coddle teenagers without actually protecting them.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

There's long been some comparisons between the superhero secret identity and the idea of a more mundane 'double life'. Some to the point where characters have to reconcile their two identities, also when a plot device splits them into different people. (oddly enough, Bruce Wayne without Batman becomes a raging lunatic)

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

I did like that Bobby isn't necessarily right all the time, even when he does have a point.

The Christian rock episode was interesting; Hank ends up pulling Bobby away from a concert (and one of the musicians even points to a Commandment to honor thy father and mother to concede the point) and has a talk with Bobby about how he's afraid Christian rock is just going to be another fad that Bobby looks back on with embarassment, and doesn't want that to define Bobby's relationship with religion. A rare point about how you can't use transitory fads to try and get messages through to young people when they'll very likely get bored of and reject it soon enough.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

sassassin posted:

That Cotton loves Bobby is not a mark in Bobby's favour. They're both awful, arrogant and profoundly selfish people (Bobby has the excuse of being a child so has the potential for change but none of life's lessons really take over the course of the show).

How does Hank's loyalty to Buck make Hank's life worse? What is he supposed to take over the company somehow should Buck ruin it/get murdered by gangsters? Hank lives a professional life of quiet satisfaction with an annual bonus (that Bobby spends on himself to try to teach his father a lesson about living like the mtvs).

There's a few episodes showing Buck is a greedy idiot who takes advantage of Hank's loyalty and skill. I think there's an outright episode where the fable of 'the goose that laid the golden egg' finally gets to him when he's pushing Hank too hard.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

There is the episode where she flat out admits (through sarcastic confession to an incompetent therapist) that her caustic attitude is a defence mechanism because she expects everyone to get sick of her eventually. (and that her sister, despite seemingly being her opposite, does the same thing except with obsession fashion trends and taking advantage of her own good looks so everybody will like her and she doesn't have to deal with real problems)

Culminating in the final episode where Daria deals with some repressed childhood trauma and realises that raising her has put a lot of stress on her parents, in addition to their considerable actual life problems, and realises she's as much a part of the problem as they are. (and worse, that her parents never openly complained because they accepted it as just a part of parenting)

The take on class and race doesn't go entirely without mention either, especially in the finale movie. (and there's some mention on the culture clash given that Tom is from old money while Daria's family is solidly upper middle-class) There's even some episodes with Daria more or less befriending the black overachieving girl who can't (usually) afford to make stands for her beliefs like Daria does, and points it out.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

Or teenagers and young people able to get jobs on a moment's notice.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

Tom probably should have been way more interesting, he hardly had much of a gimmick to him besides being a male semi-Daria from money, though they did at least do some interesting things with him, mostly in the movies. It was funny with Daria suddenly caught up in very personal and very teenage drama of the kind she usually mocks, and important for her own character development. And was funny in the finale when it's Daria who dumps him, to everyone's surprise.

It's very much a coming of age story in that it's about a couple of teenage sisters starting out quite self-absorbed and petty and slowly learning to be part of actual communities and friends, even with people they don't entirely respect or understand.

For that matter, the keyword 'sisters' brings to mind that it was pretty much unique in being an animated show about a teenager who happened to be a girl, without being an aggressively stereotypically girly character or show. poo poo was BAD for that in the 90s, you'd be lucky if a cartoon could fulfil a quota of one regular female character with a personality to speak of that wasn't offensively stereotypical. For a lot of socially awkward young and teenage boys it probably helped to see a girl who had many of the same problems you did.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

I think the problem is more that Tom, as a character, wasn't very interesting.

Reminded of an earlier episode where Daria befriends a weird kid who turns out to be normally homeschooled and seems to have a lot in common with her, and gradually helps him come out of his shell and try regular hobbies, but he ends up befriending some 'normal' teens once they find a point in common (the three dopes who are always fighting over Quinn, natch) and she realises that while she's helped him come out of his shell, they don't really much that much in common, despite him being almost hinted as a romantic interest for Daria.

I think the only LBGT thing in it I remember was the summer movie where Jane goes to an art retreat and ends up getting hit on by a bisexual woman.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

So basically, the 'Everyone has AIDS' song from Team America is the best thing to come out of Rent?

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

The only other Rent thing I am familiar with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP1ToFQOBdg

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

Hyrax Attack! posted:

I've been enjoying early 1990s Batman and Superman, and overall both series hold up fantastically well regarding animation, voice acting, and stories.

One recurring plot element does stand out: skyscrapers going down in explosions. In Beware the Gray Ghost a mad bomber is targeting buildings, and a tower crumples in flames. The episode is full of car bombs going off in downtown Gotham without consequence, and it reminded me of the intro to Children of Men.

In World's Finest, a rampaging Joker fires missiles from a giant glider at downtown Metropolis in the middle of the day and multiple tall buildings go down in seconds.

We don't even get a cursory "thank goodness it was the abandoned warehouse district", these episodes gotta have four figure body counts.

Pre-9/11 media was something else. A lot of shows got episodes delayed or pulled because of portraying cities getting wrecked. I think Transformers: Robots In Disguise (not to be confused with the current ongoing show by that name. What is it will all the goddamn same name reboots) ended up aired way out of order for that reason. Likewise, pretty much anything with guns at a school before Columbine. Though it makes Heathers even more of a pitch black comedy nowadays. (and if anything, even more on point)

It changed the way city destruction was portrayed even in movies that still did it, too. Man of Steel and Godzilla '14 focus on the rubble and the dust a lot more than the 'clean' destruction you used to see.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

WebDog posted:

The early X-Files had some bad moments.

The one episode with the face on Mars. Higher res photos today make the whole thing completely silly.
Plus to add insult to injury what was meant to be cheap to make blew out on budget for the set build of the NASA centre.

Another had someone going postal in a clock tower after seeing messages in microwaves and ATMs telling him to kill.

And early online dating was explored with a serial killer. Complete with suspense scene
as a fax machine slowly sends an identity photo as the killer approaches.

I dunno, those all sound pretty funny. But I've always found that particularly creative conspiracy theories and schizophrenic rantings make for great story ideas.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

bitterandtwisted posted:

Yeah, TWotW just feels so... modern? The pacing and characters and elements of action and horror don't read like something I'd expect from the late 19th century.

I think it would be hard to do a new adaption not set in present day America. as the core premise of the story is humanity's greatest ever superpower being hopelessly outmatched by an alien force.
I'd be interested in a Victorian England version for sure, but if the aliens took casualties from pre-WW1 artillery and battleships it would probably diminish their threat to a modern audience.

I recall something about how Spielberg talked to army officers about the original Martians and basically concluded that a modern military would completely decimate the original WotW Martians.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

Last I heard, the only adaptation of his work Alan Moore was okay with was the Justice League cartoon adaptation of For The Man Who Has Everything.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

Last I checked, Moore worships a god that the ancient Romans considered fictional. He may be taking the piss.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

Pixar took a while to start making movies about actual humans for a reason.

Also hence why of the early CGI shows, the ones considered to have not aged as poorly are Reboot, which is literally about video game characters, Beast Wars, which is about robots (in disguise, as animals, for no real reason) and... Shadow Raiders maybe, which was all aliens. Including a robot alien.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

Alhazred posted:

Skyfall heavily implied that Bond is bi.

Even Casino Royale had Bond being quite cavalier when being whipped in the balls by a guy. Bond is a sexually liberated killing machine.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

I liked Street Sharks as a kid. I never actually got to watch the show, but the toys were mostly rubber and fun to chew.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

It's pretty much common knowledge now that British media, government and police is basically one big pedophile ring.

On a slightly less depressing note, any more recent shows that have aged remarkably poorly in a short time? Was pondering Adventure Time and how it went from inescapable to old and busted in record time. Marceline I kinda keep remembering as Baby's First Daddy Issues: The Character, and as one-note characters go at least Pick mixes that up with Autistic Daddy Issues. Then again, I just gave up on that when the overlong season 5 built up to the heavens and ended with a wet fart.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

Wheat Loaf posted:

Is MLP still going?

Yes, and there's a movie possibly coming to theatres. Hasbro may well have it be the next Simpsons so long as it keeps selling toys.

This is why it's probably just as well that Transformers reboots itself regularly.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

That's pretty much 'anything popular', though Steven Universe probably peeled off a fair few, and has its very own super-toxic fanbase elements. (See the now infamous saga of a fan artist being hounded to the point of a suicide attempt because she was perceived to have drawn a character too skinny)

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

Superman needs to come back from the dead with a mullet.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

They totally can and should release Superman With A Mustache Cut as a DVD extra.

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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

And now I'm wondering what a live action Ace Attorney TV show would look like. Obviously audiences can't get enough of courtroom shenanigans.

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