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Please note that I don't know if this is actually fact, because I'm not a music historian and this isn't a part of Islam that I'm spectacularly familiar with. However, I would guess that it has something to do with the lack of formalized ritual in Islam as compared to, say, Catholicism and Orthodoxy, where Christian liturgical music really got its start. Yes there are Friday prayers, but they aren't nearly so... formal? As what I've seen of Christian Services. I don't know if there's a better word, I feel like there is. But there isn't the sense of wanting the Believers to come together as a single entity, quite so much? I would guess that probably plays a large part in this. But again, I am not in music history major, and this isn't a part of Islamic history that I've delved super deeply into. Edit: I do not actually capitalize words like a histrionic Victorian letter writer, but my voice to text sure as gently caress wants it to seem like I do
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Sep 28, 2017 23:05
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How common is it to say "peace be upon him" or PBUH or arabic equivalents or whatever when talking about Muhammad? Is it a regional thing, more common in certain branches of Islam or something people do everywhere?
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Oct 4, 2017 19:35
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Okua posted:How common is it to say "peace be upon him" or PBUH or arabic equivalents or whatever when talking about Muhammad? Is it a regional thing, more common in certain branches of Islam or something people do everywhere? It's pretty common across the Islamic world. It's a thing that's cited within both the Quran and in the Sunnah. You'll also see the occasional praise phrase for companions or other prophets. It's something that's dependent on the person, their conviction, level of casual conversation, etc.
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Oct 4, 2017 21:37
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As was said, it's really going to vary between people. I tend not to use it, I have to admit because I think it breaks up the flow of writing too much. It too often feels like an obligatory string of capital letters at the end of every mention of him, like I often see on Muslim areas online. I have too often seen it used as a sort of holier-than-thou point in the favor of the type of person who makes those kind of arguments. Consequently the insistence on it sits strangely with me. Often it will just depend on what's being talked about or said. That being said, I know many good people who also follow this standard and who I don't think are doing it for holier-than-thou reasons. But you know how tricky a subject tone can be on the internet. Tendai fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Oct 4, 2017 |
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Oct 4, 2017 22:52
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Tendai posted:But you know how tricky a subject tone can be on the internet. I made the mistake of posting on the Muslim board on Reddit once and hooooowee that place is this sentence in a nutshell. I mentioned something about my grandmother still giving me a birthday present at my age and it turned into people going : "Shame on you for celebrating your birthday it is haram!" "No, shame on you for complaining that your grandmother loves you!" "What's wrong with celebrating your birthday? Stop being the haram police!"
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Oct 4, 2017 23:34
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That is exactly why I don't even sub-and-not-comment to the r/islam board anymore  The audacity of being an educated woman who was often older than they were who didn't back down really hosed up some egos over there.
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Oct 5, 2017 01:02
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It's bad enough when local inquisition hound you about not changing your name to something arabic in order to assuage their feelings. Then I school them on the meaning behind my name and how it's very suiting.... still get the scrunched up nose and "ehhhh". Help me. I'm an oppressed white man.
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Oct 5, 2017 06:25
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That is interesting, one of the things I noticed last time I did a thread like this was when I looked around at resources online for converts, there were way less websites saying oh you have to change your name to something Arabic. That's really different than it was when I converted in... 1998? Somewhere around there. At that point, using the search engines and other resources of that time, most of the biggest websites geared towards people really learning about Islam or having just converted, were pretty strongly on the side I'm changing your name something Arabic, no matter what. Even just the Arabic version of the name. When I look now, and look at the consensus among most Muslims on social media that I've read, the opinion is more that changing your name is somehow disrespectful to your parents. Unless it's something that is quite literally offensive to Islam and/or might cause harm to you or others, there's really no reason to change it. I feel like it's a definite step in the right direction in that sense. I still cringe at remembering my idiot teenage self trying to convince friends and teachers to call me by an Arabic name in my small Alaskan fishing town. Lord, teenagers are loving idiots.
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Oct 6, 2017 22:53
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Tendai posted:That is interesting, one of the things I noticed last time I did a thread like this was when I looked around at resources online for converts, there were way less websites saying oh you have to change your name to something Arabic. That's really different than it was when I converted in... 1998? Somewhere around there. I did that too as a "statement" to friends and family as well as pressure from community. I don't entirely regret it. When it came time to make a steamID, "Rasheedeedoodah" had a nice ring to it. I've been in the same small community for long enough so only the stubborn still call me by it. At least in my area, it has a lot to do with the community being overwhelmingly "old school". Tribal/village influences the community politics despite these people having left Yemen before the unification even went down (1990 for those out of the loop). I can never tell if the axe I have to grind is with my own area or otherwise.
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Oct 7, 2017 04:26
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Okua posted:How common is it to say "peace be upon him" or PBUH or arabic equivalents or whatever when talking about Muhammad? Is it a regional thing, more common in certain branches of Islam or something people do everywhere? I don't know to much about this, but I do like that there's a unicode character for the Arabic version of the phrase: ﷺ
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Oct 10, 2017 15:07
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That's cool I didn't know that. Looks kind of cool even tiny, but Arabic calligraphy just appeals to me aesthetically anyways.
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Oct 11, 2017 23:22
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I've been studying Arabic for a few years now, and even still I can't make heads or tails out of a lot of calligraphy. Still looks amazing, though.
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Oct 13, 2017 03:29
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I'm actually a graduate student focusing on interreligious studies, but Islam has always been harder for me to study. Partly because I really feel I can only study a religion if I feel like I can see myself in it, and I struggle to do this with Islam. Part of it is the authority of the Quran: in Christianity or Buddhism, I can put things in a historical context very easily, and that can help me understand why LGBT rights or women's rights are not represented, and the religion (generally) allows for me to explore this line of thought without breaking from the tradition. But the importance of the Quran means that it would feel impossible to be a Muslim and be a strong advocate of LGBT rights. All this said, on a basic, theological level, Islam makes sense to me. The Christian trinity makes no sense, and feels less like reality and more like early church fathers working backwards when Jesus didn't, you know, stay and restore Israel. It makes it feel more true, and less of a stretch of faith.
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Oct 16, 2017 20:33
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Hiro Protagonist posted:I'm actually a graduate student focusing on interreligious studies, but Islam has always been harder for me to study. Partly because I really feel I can only study a religion if I feel like I can see myself in it, and I struggle to do this with Islam. Part of it is the authority of the Quran: in Christianity or Buddhism, I can put things in a historical context very easily, and that can help me understand why LGBT rights or women's rights are not represented, and the religion (generally) allows for me to explore this line of thought without breaking from the tradition. But the importance of the Quran means that it would feel impossible to be a Muslim and be a strong advocate of LGBT rights. It is always up to each believer how they will interpret a sacred text, and in Tendai is see a Muslim who has little issue feeling close to God while also challenging some of the regressive attitudes held by conservatives in the Ummah. People do kill each other over interpretations, though of course you know that's hardly unique to Islam or any religion. Hiro Protagonist posted:All this said, on a basic, theological level, Islam makes sense to me. The Christian trinity makes no sense, and feels less like reality and more like early church fathers working backwards when Jesus didn't, you know, stay and restore Israel. It makes it feel more true, and less of a stretch of faith. This is not the Christianity a/t, but I will give you the briefest explanation for what the trinity means to me. The trinity are the three persons of God that an average person can conceive of and pray to. The first is as the creator of everything, the ultimate "father" figure. The second is as the spirit of holiness, which I argue is available to anyone who practices holiness. Like an Indian prince sitting under a bodhi tree meditating, he is working within the universal spirit of human holiness. The third is as the character of Jesus of Nazareth, an itinerant Jewish teacher whose canonical story you can find in the nightstand of every American hotel room. All three characters have all the qualifying properties to be the True God: they are all-present, all-powerful, and all-benevolent. As there is only one God, all three characters effectively work as one solid force for the creation and salvation of the world. But I argue you only really need to recognize one of the persons of God to start a rapport with the True God. Afterwards, either the other two persons will make sense, or I'm full of poo poo.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:34
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Caufman posted:This is not the Christianity a/t, but I will give you the briefest explanation for what the trinity means to me. The trinity are the three persons of God that an average person can conceive of and pray to. The first is as the creator of everything, the ultimate "father" figure. The second is as the spirit of holiness, which I argue is available to anyone who practices holiness. Like an Indian prince sitting under a bodhi tree meditating, he is working within the universal spirit of human holiness. The third is as the character of Jesus of Nazareth, an itinerant Jewish teacher whose canonical story you can find in the nightstand of every American hotel room.
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Oct 17, 2017 00:06
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Well all right then, Uncle Occam. I see your point. The eternal dao is actually very simple and elegant, but the dao we can talk about is never the eternal dao. The Baha'i's have one-upped even the disciples of Mohammad by stating that each great messenger transmits the message in their time and place, but the message will continuously be retold as each new generation of disciples pass through a new era until we all arrive at the time and place of eternal life. Caufman fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 00:11
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An actual question this time! What does the Koran say about the Koran? I understand the story is that Mohammad heard the Message verbally from Gabriel. Is that story in the Koran itself?
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Oct 17, 2017 08:10
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Hiro Protagonist posted:All this said, on a basic, theological level, Islam makes sense to me. The Christian trinity makes no sense, and feels less like reality and more like early church fathers working backwards when Jesus didn't, you know, stay and restore Israel. It makes it feel more true, and less of a stretch of faith. When you decide to abandon the idea of divine simplicity, then it becomes kind of reassuring and sensical that a full understanding of god and our ability to make sense of God is to some degree challenging or defies or ability to understand.
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Oct 17, 2017 11:55
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CountFosco posted:When you decide to abandon the idea of divine simplicity, then it becomes kind of reassuring and sensical that a full understanding of god and our ability to make sense of God is to some degree challenging or defies or ability to understand. Ah, but the flip side of that is if you abandon divine simplicity, in your appreciation for the complexity of the complete plan of creation, take care not to allow your own reception and transmission of the message to be convoluted. It's true, the logos we can talk about is never the eternal logos. But sometimes we're not even speaking of the temporal logos coherently. Like right now, I have doubts about my coherency, not that of the ultimate meaning of all the cosmos.
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Oct 17, 2017 12:51
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I don't have a question for this thread yet, but I thought this article was interesting. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/14/...g-article-click
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Oct 17, 2017 17:11
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What amuses me most is bigots REFUSING to concede it was someone who was simultaneously a muslim and a viking. Not a muslim who became a viking, a viking that became a muslim (out of sincerity OR convenience). NOPE. It had to be that a pure blonde nordic berseker murdered some unworthy Moors and stole their belongings.
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Oct 17, 2017 20:51
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To be fair, using decorative (pseudo-)Arabic writing was pretty common in medieval European art, especially on clothing. While people don't really know what reasoning went into using it, it's unlikely that the people creating those images of Christian saints were trying to convey some Islamic sentiment. It seems more likely that the Arab script was used to characterise imported, expensive and high-quality materials. Much like decorative Chinese characters are often used on Chinese luxury goods like tea and silk in western countries today. It's certainly not impossible that Viking culture was influenced by Muslim culture in some ways, or that some Muslims lived among them (Ibn Fadlan is known to have traveled there). But embroidered ribbons found in some non-Islamic graves don't really demonstrate that.
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Oct 17, 2017 21:43
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pidan posted:To be fair, using decorative (pseudo-)Arabic writing was pretty common in medieval European art, especially on clothing. While people don't really know what reasoning went into using it, it's unlikely that the people creating those images of Christian saints were trying to convey some Islamic sentiment. It seems more likely that the Arab script was used to characterise imported, expensive and high-quality materials. Much like decorative Chinese characters are often used on Chinese luxury goods like tea and silk in western countries today. Which is, honestly, a reasonable argument. It's not even a hill worth dying on that would validate Islam being the one true religion, like say, if cars were mentioned in the Qur'an (I just watched Kumail Nanjiani's monologue on SNL )
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Oct 17, 2017 21:54
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Caufman posted:Ah, but the flip side of that is if you abandon divine simplicity, in your appreciation for the complexity of the complete plan of creation, take care not to allow your own reception and transmission of the message to be convoluted. I mean, this whole conversation even making sense presumes that we share a roughly proximate conception of "simplicity."
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Oct 21, 2017 03:16
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Actual viking weighing in*: The vikings were extremely pragmatic with their faith, and often added the names of gods they encountered to their amulets and sometimes even took the entire pantheon into their own for worship! Of course, realizing this would mean you have to actually study your own history and religion, which is why neo-nazis claiming heathenry fall flat on their face in cases like this  * as in, I come from Denmark and practice reconstructionist aesir/vanir heathenry.
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Oct 24, 2017 14:05
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Tias posted:* as in, I come from Denmark and practice reconstructionist aesir/vanir heathenry.
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Oct 24, 2017 18:50
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This isn't related to Islam, strictly speaking, but I wanted to crosspost something interesting I came across in the Christianity thread. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT_ANOw-YzU That's a Byzantine chant used in Greek Orthodox churches. I know almost nothing about liturgical music, but I bring it up because something about the vocal style used sounds like the call to prayer (to my non-muslim ears, anyway).
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Oct 27, 2017 23:28
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pidan posted:To be fair, using decorative (pseudo-)Arabic writing was pretty common in medieval European art, especially on clothing. While people don't really know what reasoning went into using it, it's unlikely that the people creating those images of Christian saints were trying to convey some Islamic sentiment. It seems more likely that the Arab script was used to characterise imported, expensive and high-quality materials. Much like decorative Chinese characters are often used on Chinese luxury goods like tea and silk in western countries today.
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Oct 28, 2017 01:44
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Tendai posted:That kind of cracked me up. It reminded me of people getting unknown tattoos in non-Latin alphabets to look cool. My thought exactly. It's a proud, white tradition. For an Islam question that might be kind of strange and/or self-explanatory: To preface, I was raised Mormon. The standard Mormon church building often includes a central room (technically called the "cultural center" but more often colloquially referred to as "the gym") that serves a more secular purpose: pickup basketball/soccer/volleyball games, holiday celebrations, party events, etc. Are mosques also frequently used for such community purposes? I would assume that they are, but I really have no idea as I've only met a handful of Muslims in my entire life. Given the demographics of my region, I think I've met way more Buddhists than Muslims 
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Oct 30, 2017 17:22
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FELD1 posted:My thought exactly. It's a proud, white tradition. All depends on your locale. Of the dozen of mosques in my 20 mile radius, 2 of them Have a larger "rec" area for community activities with there being a Muslim equivalent of ymca in addition. If you have communities that aren't stingy/upper-middle class, most def. The one across town from me doesn't have one, but there is a room in the basement for the occasional youth activities.
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Oct 30, 2017 17:46
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It really depends on a lot of things, as was said. Location, cultural composition, what type of Islam they practice, how old the general participants are, all of the things that will generally kind of define churches as well. That being said, I think the uses to which they are put will generally often be the same, social gatherings, possibly the athletics if they have that kind of funding. There are some practices that based on my knowledge and experience probably wouldn't go down much, like having birthday parties and such. Birthdays and Islam and whether they are celebrated are kind of a wide topic of controversy. The more conservative will say that it is totally against Islam to celebrate a human birthday in that way. The more liberal say ah, whatever, just don't do anything directly transgressive against Islam. Naturally I think most people probably fall somewhere in between.
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Oct 30, 2017 23:19
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Is Ifrit just another word for Djinn, or are they different? I know Islam has a lot of angels. Are there different types of angels? And are the angels humans with wings like in church art, or are we talking those freaking Old Testament angels with wheels and eyes galore?
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Nov 5, 2017 12:54
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Bum the Sad posted:White power? Most emphatically not. Reconstructionist heathenry has a huge problem with neo-nazi shitheads co-opting our faith to promote racism, contrary to everything the sagas teach us, and neither I nor anyone I associate with would accept discrimination based on race in our congregation.
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Nov 6, 2017 19:41
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For whats it worth, Tias has been posting about counter protesting nazis years before its a thing, ignore his red title.BattyKiara posted:Is Ifrit just another word for Djinn, or are they different? I know Islam has a lot of angels. Are there different types of angels? And are the angels humans with wings like in church art, or are we talking those freaking Old Testament angels with wheels and eyes galore? Djinn come in many different varieties, im no expert, but from my knowledge it depends on what kind of folklore or mythology you read. Ifrit can be anything from tiny goblin like tricksters to large fiery demons, same goes for Marid, one artist impression had that as green giant with no hair and pointy ears, again it all comes down on where you read it though. Also the Qur'an doesnt go into detail on how angels look, i think, its all tafseer and most scholars tend to lean on the bizarre stuff like how the mountain angel who was supposed to smash tai'f between two mountains was also a huge dude made out of rocks and sits on a throne of rocks. And i think Israfel is supposed to look like a skeleton whose blowing a horn, and stuff like that. Again im mostly paraphrasing from memory cause that was all ages ago when i was a kid studying in school and the source was my religious studies teacher. Also just wanna add, keep up the good work Tendai, and thanks for remaking this thread.
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Nov 12, 2017 19:08
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Fizzil posted:For whats it worth, Tias has been posting about counter protesting nazis years before its a thing, ignore his red title. CERTAINLY no expert here, but from what I've read of the Qur'an [I read a translation from a few decades ago], the mention of "otherworldly" beings comes up very little. Djinn and Ifrit and Marid mean more to me as antagonists in Dungeons and Dragons than actual spiritual enemies in everyday life. As for angels, hah! I read an old Christian book once describing the various orders of angels, extrapolated from the old and new testaments. It read VERY much like fan fiction. Still fun, to watch the writer's mind slowly unravel as I read it. If anything, that old Christian excuse for the lack of miracles holds true. We don't have direct evidence of god because that would interfere with what faith fundamentally is. Existence or interference by various Djinn or even the Daeva would undermine that. The texts, when they speak of evil, are more about human evil.
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Nov 21, 2017 15:45
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Changes in Saudi Arabia, as per previous discussion in the thread https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/23/opinion/saudi-prince-mbs-arab-spring.html
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Nov 24, 2017 03:49
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What is the Muslim view on drugs in general? I know alcohol is an absolute no-no, but smoking pot? Taking various party drugs? Or have my Muslim co-workers found a loop hole here?
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Dec 5, 2017 14:56
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BattyKiara posted:What is the Muslim view on drugs in general? I know alcohol is an absolute no-no, but smoking pot? Taking various party drugs? Or have my Muslim co-workers found a loop hole here? I believe in any normal interpretation drugs are absolutely just as haraam as alcohol because it's an intoxicant. Ironically, the Islamic world has an extremely long history with cannabis and opium, both and users and producers, and various places have gone through various phases of permissiveness and prohibition.
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Dec 5, 2017 15:52
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Jeza posted:I believe in any normal interpretation drugs are absolutely just as haraam as alcohol because it's an intoxicant. Ironically, the Islamic world has an extremely long history with cannabis and opium, both and users and producers, and various places have gone through various phases of permissiveness and prohibition. the islamic world also has an extremely long history with alcohol, for that matter
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Dec 5, 2017 22:55
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Nowadays you hear a lot of people pull the Air Bud defense. "Where in the Qur'an or Sunnah does it say I can't do acid?". Or, if they are REALLY insecure about their private actions, "Ok, i don't care what the sunnah says. If it's not in the Qur'an, it's not haram."
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Dec 5, 2017 23:06
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