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Ferdinand the Bull
Jul 30, 2006

"Art is an expression of who you are, and nobody else can define that for you." - Corey
ISIS has a killer social media presence, though.

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Ferdinand the Bull
Jul 30, 2006

"Art is an expression of who you are, and nobody else can define that for you." - Corey
I apologize if this rambling is frustrating to read.

There needs to be more vocal dissent against the messed up business people get up to in the name of religion on all sides.

Let me be anecdotal towards my own experiences.
I can speak as a Jew. I see what happens in Israel and it makes me sick to my stomach. I support aaliyah, but I do not support a Jewish state. I do not support any state based off of religion. I'm vocal about it to to the more conservative parts of my family and fellow Jews. You can imagine how disgusted they are and how pissed off they are at me when I say it. But I say it because since I am a Jew I know that what I say has weight to them.

Far-right religious movements need to be shouted down. Just being moral yourself is not enough.
So here's my question after all that: Do you think that the average Muslim has a duty to protect and promote a pluralistic society? How do you think this aim can be objectively achieved? Is it even possible? Are we all doomed?

Ferdinand the Bull fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Aug 28, 2018

Ferdinand the Bull
Jul 30, 2006

"Art is an expression of who you are, and nobody else can define that for you." - Corey

Tendai posted:

There is, but generally in countries where there is not the immediate need for the distinction. The United States. Canada. Various European countries. People there on average are not particularly in danger of terrorist attack or religious violence of the nature that one sees in other parts of the world. Yes there are random dangers along those lines but they are not facts of lives to the extent that they are in places like Iraq right now. The places where those voices truly, truly matter the most and where that change needs to happen so desperately.

As for people in countries that do face that kind of institutionalized or near institutionalized violence, be it tacit approval of extremist terrorists site by the government, or executing religious dissidents, I run into a hard thing there. That is the question of my own courage in such a situation. I was lucky enough to be born into a place, a time, and a family that allowed me to become who I am with regards to religion and the way I explore it and feel about it. I look at this from a very socially look serious standpoint + I have to be aware of that.

If I were a woman in Saudi Arabia, looking at the fact that women who nonviolently protested the countries ban on women driving not long before that ban was going to be removed, have been detained, would I be courageous enough to speak out against the religious establishment the hold so much power? Would I be brave enough to do it in a place with a state that functions even less efficiently, like Afghanistan or Iraq? I don't know. It's easy to say yes, until you're faced with the situation.

So, while there is an increasingly loud voice from Muslims, both online and in the flesh, it is a dangerous voice to speak in in many parts of the world where would do the most good. So my overall answer to your question is kind of wishy-washy I suppose. The idealistic part of me wants to say yes we all have that obligation to defend the rights of others to live as they please in as much as it affects only themselves. That feels like too awkward a way to say that, but I was trying to find the most non loaded variation. The much more realistic part of me realizes that I come at the thought of this from a very safe place physically, economically, and socially, and I question how much I can judge others who don't have that luxury.

True. Good points. Actually, let me rephrase.

As a western Jew, I feel that I have a moral obligation to speak out against the racist and exclusionary tendencies of the Israeli government. My separation from the regime gives me the ability to agitate for change in a manner that Israeli Jews cannot. I base this off of the assumption that there are many Israelis who hold my viewpoint that for political reasons cannot speak out.

What I am wondering is this: do you feel western Muslims have a moral obligation to speak out against the racist and exclusionary attitudes of SA and the various Gulf States?

Ferdinand the Bull
Jul 30, 2006

"Art is an expression of who you are, and nobody else can define that for you." - Corey

Tendai posted:

Yes, I 100% feel like they do and the significant number of apologists is disgusting.

Me too. There is so much ugliness in the world, and generally one has so little control over it. Faith should be about developing inner strength, strengethining bonds in the community. I realize as Muslims and Jews we dont really have a lot of say how our communities are perceived. Thats just how it is I guess.
What are some things about Islam that give you hope?

Ferdinand the Bull
Jul 30, 2006

"Art is an expression of who you are, and nobody else can define that for you." - Corey

Fizzil posted:

Sorry i know this is more towards Tendai, but a really good thing and one that gives me hope is that muslims in the US have shown to be more progressive and accepting and willing to engage and go against the grain without compromising, its especially important because we simply have no real voice right now except through them.

Also had it not been for these forums i probably wouldn't have been exposed really critical leftist resources, media and such, and this has shaped my beliefs considerably into being more cosmopolitan.

Same. These forums have consistently kept me sane in a world gone mad. Yall are part of my community.

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