|
The Bloop posted:I'm not willing to wade to deep into "what is rape" in this thread, but making yourself insanely attractive to other people and then making it with them when they offer... isn't rape. It's essentially the goal of dating. Except he didn't make himself attractive. They were coerced via compromised brain function. The brain generates the mind and the brain is made out of meat. Attractiveness appeals to normal functioning. If you agree to take some time out of you day to share something nice with someone, you've agreed to do so because [generic reasons]. This can include, "They're a total smokeshow and'll totally be cool about it after." You made the choice, and you could have said no. Evil Rob Lowe subverted normal functioning. He secretly, chemically triggered their brain to take them for a ride. Lowe made the choice, and they could not say no. Shbobdb posted:You can still consent just fine on E. You might not make good decisions but it is still clearly you making them. As opposed to roofies or pass-out drunk. I've never taken E before. Does it pretty much just make everything feel really, really good? That's what I've heard.
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 21:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 2, 2024 21:48 |
|
|
It's possible that he didn't realize he would be affecting the humans, or affecting them so strongly. Possibly the heats aren't all the same "strength" or he doesn't hang with humans all that much.Stabbey_the_Clown posted:And it was quite clear that in the state of mind, they were not able to make decisions, let alone give consent. This is almost certainly true, but his culture may not see sex as something so needing of consent in that sense as we don't with handshakes or something. The fact they were coming on to him was all the consent his culture (apparently) requires or expects. This is still a problem but it seems like more of a problem with the way the Union deals with interspecies issues than with him personally.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 21:52
|
|
|
Your own personal interpretation can be anything, but the intent is to continue Trek's legacy of sex-positivity, so what the blue alien did is supposed to have just been annoying and questionable, not full on rape.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 21:57
|
|
|
Accretionist posted:
Senses are heightened so things feel more and better both physically and emotionally (the two also get blurred). This is coupled with a strong euphoria and sense of closeness with other people. It's also a stimulant so you are energized. It's a good time, I highly recommend it in moderation.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 21:57
|
|
|
I just really hope Macfarlane's outspoken anti-rape position isn't a deflection on his part (or an impetus for disgruntled rapists to frame him or something). I'd really hate to have this show shut down, among other things.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 21:58
|
|
|
Accretionist posted:Except he didn't make himself attractive. They were coerced via compromised brain function. It makes you stupid, horny, stupid, smelly and nowhere near as graceful as you think it does.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 21:59
|
|
|
I mean...it’s not a real alien. It’s Rob Lowe in blueface. The writers chose to write him the way they did, you can’t blame his biology because it doesn’t actually exist. The fact is that the writers of The Orville chose to write an episode in which the will of several characters is chemically subverted and they are taken advantage of sexually. It’s not treated as a horrific violation, everyone kind of shrugs and grins sheepishly and this is a terrible message to send.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 22:00
|
|
|
Shbobdb posted:You can still consent just fine on E. You might not make good decisions but it is still clearly you making them. As opposed to roofies or pass-out drunk. loving yikes. And double yikes after clicking on your rap sheet.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 22:00
|
|
|
Although it is an important question whether it was possible to NOT bang him when he did the pheremones. And also whether there are any humans seductive enough that it would be impossible for most people to say no to them (Marilyn Monroe? Jason Momoa?)
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 22:03
|
|
|
Accretionist posted:Except he didn't make himself attractive. They were coerced via compromised brain function. That's one definition of love, yes. We humans have hormones. They compromise brain function. More accurately, they are part of brain function. Your mind isn't some perfect ideal process that determines rational behaviors and is sometimes negatively affected by chemicals. Inputs from other people and things outside of ourselves are what our minds are processing much of the time, and the reaction to that is a large part of what we are, that's not a bug in the system, that is the system. Someone being physically attractive, funny, or smelling nice, or whatever, affects (compromises, if you will) our functioning. How we react to that is literally what our personality is. At a certain point alien attractiveness may be a consent-erasing effect, a bit like elves in LotR. Still a touchy subject where we'd be exiling him to a menstrual hut and shaming his natural body processes for a substance he is involuntarily excreting. Even if he refused to gently caress anybody they would still be terminally distracted from what we saw. This is an interesting sort of interspecies morality question that wasn't really explored. Or he knew it and can control it and is a dick, sure, but we don't know that for sure.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 22:06
|
|
|
Rasputin?
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 22:07
|
|
|
The Bloop posted:That's one definition of love, yes. We humans have hormones. They compromise brain function. More accurately, they are part of brain function. Is your bicep contracting because you're reaching for something or because I'm electrocuting it? The action undertaken by the system, is it arising via normal system-behavior or is the system's functionality being co-opted by an exogenous factor whose character is outside normal parameters? I think you're getting lost in reductionism. Suicide isn't the same as murder, for example, just because both involve your body interacting with your environment and they're kind of contiguous and it's like we're all just a holistic system of systems and so on.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 22:11
|
|
|
Accretionist posted:Is your bicep contracting because you're reaching for something or because I'm electrocuting it? The action undertaken by the system, is it arising via normal system-behavior or is the system's functionality being co-opted by an exogenous factor whose character is outside normal parameters? I don't think I am. I do think that we are not discrete, closed systems that are sometimes invaded by outside forces. Outside stimuli are absolutely vital to our functioning. A brain in a jar with no senses would not have a recognizable human personality. Being affected by things in the environment is an intrinsic vital necessary component to our existence as pattern-selves. Every stimuli affects us, compromises our current pattern by changing it. Some changes we find too sudden or powerful and give special social significance to. His culture may have that line in a completely different place.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 22:19
|
|
|
I think we can all agree that at bare minimum, blue Rob Lowe was being an rear end in a top hat, since he spent time around humans and could see his effects on them. But at least he realized his idgaf attitude toward his pheromones almost killed millions of people. Still a mega-rear end in a top hat though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 22:20
|
|
|
The Bloop posted:I do think that we are not discrete, closed systems that are sometimes invaded by outside forces. Except this is wholly irrelevant. If I'm a psychic Dungeons and Dragons wizard and cast 'Domination' then psychically induce you to commit suicide, did you commit suicide or were you murdered? "Well, I do not think that we are discrete, closed systems that..."
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 22:25
|
|
|
Let's just all admit that given the opportunity we'd all gently caress Rob Lowe, blue or not, and move on
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 22:31
|
|
|
Accretionist posted:Except this is wholly irrelevant. If I'm a psychic Dungeons and Dragons wizard and cast 'Domination' then psychically induce you to commit suicide, did you commit suicide or were you murdered? It depends on what that spell actually does (I actually think it can't do that  ) Maybe both. Someone was charged with murder this year for talking someone into suicide.If I convince you to buy term life insurance, it is equally true that you bought it (chose to buy it) and that I sold it to you. Pheromones are not magic spells that dominate you any more than amazing good looks or smooth talking are. They are just inputs that naturally exist. We don't demand people contain their pheromones in any way in case of accidental overwhelming sexiness. I've already said that if the alien pheromones raise to the level of consent-erasing (a semi-arbitrary sociolegal distinction) in humans then that is an interesting intersperses social/legal issue for the Union. It doesn't necessarily make Blue Guy a rapist.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 22:34
|
|
|
Also, Orville episodes sometimes feel a bit rushed at the end. Like 'oh poo poo, we only have 5 minutes to wrap this up.' This episode gave me that feeling. 'We just whipped up a stronger version of the pheromone we discovered 5 minutes ago and fixed everything, the end.' I wish each episode was given another 10 minutes to breathe a bit. But considering the sheer number of commercials nowdays, that may not be possible. Edit: Azhais posted:Let's just all admit that given the opportunity we'd all gently caress Rob Lowe, blue or not, and move on I'd probably be down.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 22:34
|
|
|
The Bloop posted:Pheromones are not magic spells that dominate you any more than amazing good looks or smooth talking are. Ah, I think this is primarily where you and I are diverging. His pheromones appeared to have the effect of stripping agency to me.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 22:40
|
|
|
The Bloop posted:At a certain point alien attractiveness may be a consent-erasing effect, a bit like elves in LotR. Still a touchy subject where we'd be exiling him to a menstrual hut and shaming his natural body processes for a substance he is involuntarily excreting. Even if he refused to gently caress anybody they would still be terminally distracted from what we saw. It's not scent, though, it's excretions. Smurfs don't have to go to the shame-hut, they just need to wear gloves every so often.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 22:45
|
|
|
Also hey we also got to see another Union ship, and this time it was a smaller one!
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 22:47
|
|
|
Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Also hey we also got to see another Union ship, and this time it was a smaller one! I thought that was cool, showing the family resemblance when you step down in size.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 22:49
|
|
|
Accretionist posted:Ah, I think this is primarily where you and I are diverging. His pheromones appeared to have the effect of stripping agency to me. In addition to this, consider that it made Ed attracted to him and Ed isn't even normally attracted to men. Peachfart posted:Do we really need to psychoanalyze it deeper than that? Welcome to SA, you must be new here.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 22:50
|
|
|
Accretionist posted:Ah, I think this is primarily where you and I are diverging. His pheromones appeared to have the effect of stripping agency to me. I would argue that all the affected characters still acted like themselves. They just acted like themselves infatuated. If they were autonomously acting identically I would agree but they all handled it differently. Ice cream pouts is different from lovey outbursts etc. They all ignored their duties, but many people do when in love / infatuated. Jeb! Repetition posted:the intent is to continue Trek's legacy of sex-positivity, so what the blue alien did is supposed to have just been annoying and questionable, not full on rape. I think this is right. Farmer Crack-rear end posted:It's not scent, though, it's excretions. Smurfs don't have to go to the shame-hut, they just need to wear gloves every so often. A difference in degree rather than kind. Shame gloves are like wearing a diaper around, maybe. His species could be devastated by it, or alternately agree and not care at all. Again, interesting interspecies politics.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 22:52
|
|
|
I miss temperature scale chat.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 23:00
|
|
|
This episode was shaping up to be pretty good but then rape rape rape.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 23:20
|
|
|
Bortus better sing and eat nails by the end of the season!!! Good episode, I laughed plenty. Zebulon posted:"Your answer is confusing. Has the captain entered Derulio?" "...Not yet." Favorite line of the episode.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 23:21
|
|
|
Frionnel posted:This episode was shaping up to be pretty good but then rape rape rape. How much rape can the crew of the Orville withstand to stop a galactic war. Next time on
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 23:34
|
|
|
Tensions run high between Ed and Kelly after a series of rapes, but can rape help forge a peace treaty between two warring cultures?
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 23:40
|
|
|
Haha they wrote an episode where rape saves the day and they filmed it and added special effects and then released it on tv
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 23:41
|
|
|
The Bloop posted:I would argue that all the affected characters still acted like themselves. They just acted like themselves infatuated. I would chock that up to metacognition or the lack thereof. The brain tends to just integrate poo poo to your current experience. If you're performing brain surgery and poke something to check for a reaction before plunging through... [Metacognition: YES] The patient might let you know that they suddenly find you very attractive. [Metacognition: NO] The patient might get flirty or suddenly think you're very funny and charming. Accretionist fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Nov 10, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 23:41
|
|
|
So people are saying Rob Lowe and Mercer didn't bang? I thought it was pretty unambiguous that they did bang. Personally I'm taking what as Lowe did to rape as manslaughter is to murder. He absolutely was negligent, his species has a responsibility to keep their pheromone poo poo in check. Also people comparing it to 'he made himself attractive, they acted on it' are being ridiculous. The human brain isn't built to handle artificially generated chemical extremes and none of the crew were mentally capable, it's date rape not an ecstasy gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 23:56
|
|
|
"Mercer was just infatuated! So he would totally blow off intergalactic peace negotiations taking place on his own exploratory vessel for romance!" is so dumb literally the first trait the show established is that he's a workaholic that deprioritises romance.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 23:59
|
|
|
Personally I prefer blue people to be natural. When blue people, especially rob lowe, get dolled up with pheromones and low sugar, it may look good from a distance. But when you are close to them, it's pretty disgusting. You can't put your fingers through their hair, you don't want to touch their face. They have to wash up to get intimate and I think most blue people I've met look great au naturale anyway. That and I like him better with more sugar.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 23:59
|
|
|
Vitamin P posted:Also people comparing it to 'he made himself attractive, they acted on it' are being ridiculous. No, look, using substances to influence people's brain functions is fine, that's why getting your partner super drunk so they become down to gently caress is ok.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2017 00:19
|
|
|
The starship Olympia seems to have changed a bit. Episode 6, with Orville for scale:  Episode 9, again with Orville:  Somehow it shrunk into a two-looper.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2017 00:32
|
|
|
Frionnel posted:No, look, using substances to influence people's brain functions is fine, that's why getting your partner super drunk so they become down to gently caress is ok. Nah, it's not rape, not in any legal sense anyway. There is nothing remotely comparable to a love potion in reality and it's totally unclear how our legal systems would handle something like this. It would probably be easiest to just outright ban the chemical substance and treat it as a serious drug violation instead of letting a bunch of cognitive scientists, physicians, philosophers, lawyers etc. fight it out.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2017 00:51
|
|
|
Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Nah, it's not rape, not in any legal sense anyway. There is nothing remotely comparable to a love potion in reality No, trust me, ecstasy, cocaine and meth will make you want to gently caress people you would never gently caress sober. And as far as I know, legally speaking, one cannot consent while intoxicated.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2017 01:07
|
|
|
Jeb! Repetition posted:They're not even lampshading the fact that all culture is the twentieth century anymore I’m going to make a bold statement: Making in-universe cultural references to events or things from our future would be pointless or dumb. Carping about it is the most ever.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2017 01:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 2, 2024 21:48 |
|
|
precision posted:No, trust me, ecstasy, cocaine and meth will make you want to gently caress people you would never gently caress sober. So do human pheromones or intense emotional experiences.  Millions of people legally take meth-/amphetamine or various anxiolytic/euphorigenic drugs on a daily basis and can consent just fine. It's not sufficient for something to qualify as date rape.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2017 01:45
|
|