The Decline and Fall of Western Civilization.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Decline and Fall of Western Civilization.

QuoProQuid: Jan 12, 2012; Tr*ckin' and F*ckin' all the way to tha
T O P

Attempts to compare the United States and Roman Empire tend to reveal more about a person's ignorance of history than any lessons that are actually relevant today. It combines nihilism, anti-Americanism, and a lack of historical perspective.

There are superficial comparisons, like their international dominance and problems related to climate, but the analogy falls apart if a person thinks about it for more than ten minutes. The United States is not constantly besieged by barbarian tribes. It is not subjected to regular civil wars and pretender-led uprisings. The military is not an actor in the political process. As much as pundits would claim otherwise, the Senate is not a powerless body that can be cowed by whichever strongman appears to be on the rise. Inequality is encoded throughout the American political process, but the United States is not at a point where you have to be a descendant of one of the founding fathers to lead. There are problems with American cities, but they are not the filthy, noisy streets of Rome. Rome never had to contend with a globe of rivals and the United States has never been isolated from other large powers. There is no comparison between today's ideological battles and the disputes that divided Roman elites.

I could go on, but I'd like to end with a note that the "West" is more than just the United States. Even if, beyond all logic and reason, you think the United States is in a downward spiral, there's no reason to think that powers like the European Union would twiddle their thumbs and await death.

QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Aug 13, 2017

# ¿ Aug 13, 2017 14:03

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QuoProQuid: Jan 12, 2012; Tr*ckin' and F*ckin' all the way to tha
T O P

ductonius posted:

Your title mimmics "Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire" and if you want to know how Western Civilization will play out you need to look into the history of the Roman Empire. Right now we're experiencing what the Romans experienced 400-500 years before the sacking of Rome by the Vandals. It's actually quite stunning how much Roman politics and economics directly parallels what we're seeing today.

-> concentration of wealth in few individuals who do not suffer negative consequences for bad economic decisions
--> In Rome, this was the concentration of land holding in a few individuals and the enrichment of the 1% today.
--> Wealthy Romans didn't care that grain harvests were falling, because they still ate well. Today, we have the divergence of Wall St. and Main St economies.

-> preference of the capital class to use non-citizen labour for production
-->Slaves were preferred as labour in Rome, today we use robots and overseas labour.

-> the necessary expansion of the welfare state
-->Bread and Circuses was an economic solution to the economic problem of unemployment. Today we have many welfare programs and GMI experiments.

->The unwillingness of the elite to directly defend the empire.
--> Romans ended up paying mercenaries (like the Vandals) to defend the borders (guess how well that turned out). Today we have Trump et al telling NATO allies they have to increase defence spending to defend American hegemony (guess how well this will turn out).

I think it's more instructive to look for lessons in American history than to squint at different events from Antiquity until they resemble something like the modern day. The magnitude of inequality in Rome is not really comparable to the United States. Nor can globalization and mechanization be translated easily to slavery. The NATO comparison is nonsensical.

# ¿ Aug 13, 2017 17:35

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Decline and Fall of Western Civilization.