The Decline and Fall of Western Civilization.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Decline and Fall of Western Civilization.

Sneakster: Jul 13, 2017; by R. Guyovich

Jeza posted:

I will say that extreme levels of rising inequality and stagnation in quality of life for the majority leaves people with simmering resentment which often channels into blaming the 'other'. The alt right is certainly right about one thing which is that a very contented status quo of socially liberal but economically pro-free market politicians and leaders have with one hand lined their pockets and with the other have pushed down and silenced a racist and poverty stricken underclass who have now had a backlash in elections.

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You simultaneously ignore Trumps support is the upper class, say that politicians have betrayed the poor, and I'm willing to bet two more sentences and you'd say poor people are voting against their own interests if they don't vote for democrats who's only accomplishments post-LBJ has been slashing welfare and a medicaid expansion that was coincidental to robbing the middle class on behalf of capitalist interests. You have this mind numbing over simplification to the point of non-nonsensical of racism being the primary driver of people in ethnically homogeneous states, even when breaking hard for an actual leftwing choice for the first time in a generation and giving up after the choice got reduced to a racist republican lying about supporting social programs and a democrat lying about social programs who was willing to pander to the same homophobic and racism, border wall and everything, who's literally an extension of the administration that dismantled welfare.

If you don't come from money, roughly 18-24 and having gotten into a good college after having good preparation in high-school, any expectation of gainful employment is basically a fantasy. These people voted for the left when it had a chance and the left did everything it could to sabotage the choice after stomping on them and the only choice left was a criminal willing to pander and a criminal who already hosed them over while pissing on them.

The problem is capitalism, racism is a symptom. The bourgeois never hesitated to hire to the klan to strike break anyone that started noticing the capitalist class is a mutual enemy, and even now, as shown in the incoherence of your argument, will exploit racism to defend capitalism.

# ¿ Aug 13, 2017 17:38

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 20:38

Sneakster: Jul 13, 2017; by R. Guyovich

Jeza posted:

Nice meltdown, and also reading comprehension if you believe that post somehow was pro-Democrat or capitalism. drat these "non-nonsensical" DnD posters. I can't even follow this rambling screed.

Writing more than two sentences about how the poor have no real options isn't hard to follow or a meltdown.

Pembroke Fuse posted:

I think you guys are saying the same thing, more or less. Economic failure of the capitalist system for some segments of society and betrayal of the working class by their supposed center-left defenders contributes to racism. I guess I would say on Nov. 8th, the actual support for racism came from a variety sources however, most of them being lower middle class.

Is it maybe, just possible, that you're describing disengagement from a system that's proved itself completely antagonistic to the poor, and you're desperately trying paint them as immoral villains of democracy rather than alienated victims?

Black people don't vote Republican because they're racist, not because the Republican party is actively hostile in terms of policy and engagement. That's so stupid that nobody that's not a Republican would actually say that, but if you kaleidoscope the poor into being the foot soldiers of racewar, you're able to come up with justifications that are completely insane and nobody bats an eye if it suits a political narrative in which you aren't effectively in league with villains

If you really think about it, the landless, the slaves, and the debtors are what caused the collapse of Rome.

Sneakster fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Aug 13, 2017

# ¿ Aug 13, 2017 18:35

Sneakster: Jul 13, 2017; by R. Guyovich

Pembroke Fuse posted:

I don't know why you're attacking me.

Really, really, really not intentional. I think my writing style comes off as accidentally aggressive.

Pembroke Fuse posted:

I'm not trying to paint the poor as anything. Economic dislocation and disengagement definitely leads to a variety of terrible outcomes, including racism. That said, "the poor" are not a monolith and not free of agency. Some poor white people have made a specific set of decisions about how they're going to disengage from the system and in what direction they're going to go. Instead of becoming more radically leftist, they chose, to a certain extent, to become more radically right-wing. Alienation does not necessitate listing towards fascism and being a victim of the economic system does not preclude you from becoming a foot soldier in a race war. The SturmAbteilung recruited heavily from the working classes as well.

Also, I didn't really make this point, but racism in the US spans all class boundaries. It's a fundamental identity of many white Americans, rich, middle class and poor, going back several centuries. You can say that it was started as a divide and conquer strategy after Bacon's Rebellion in 1676 (and it was), but it's been ingrained ever since. Americans, regardless of their economic class, live in a state deeply inscribed by racist culture and practices.

tl;dr Economic and political alienation is a strong factor in WWC racism, but it's not the only factor. The WWC isn't free of agency and being a member of the WWC doesn't preclude you from acting in your own best interests. Being at the intersection of culture, politics and economics makes everyone both a victim and an actor.

That's still incredibly fallacious reasoning. West Virginia was founded on avoiding slavery and went left when it had the chance, and the left pulled away. The democrats pass nafta, cut welfare, and propped up segregation, but not voting for them is against your own interests. At what point were the poor given a political choice that they didn't take the better one on? How is WWC racism a larger factor than middle and upper class racism? Why is it the poor are held in contempt while the bourgeois have violent hostility to integration despite the closest-to-left wing politics pandering to their interests?

Why are the moral failings of the system somehow made contingent on those who have the least stake in it? They voted for the left most candidate available and the bourgeois did everything possible to remove that choice, yet somehow the poor still take the blame. The poor somehow take the lions share of responsibility for the crimes of the bourgeois.

# ¿ Aug 13, 2017 19:11

Sneakster: Jul 13, 2017; by R. Guyovich

Rime posted:

Yeah, the point of this thread was definitely not to be America centric or to get caught up in comparisons to Rome (my bad). While discussing America seems unavoidable, as it's currently declining significantly faster than other western nations and its multi-decade stranglehold over the world makes that a big issue, there's plenty of meat to be had in the EU or peripherals such as Canada.

Sorry for any hi-jacking, I just thought it was weird cause it seemed an analysis doomed to failure by describing as the system via the assumed motives of those with the least agency in it.

I've mentioned this in other threads, and I've been rummaging over starting a thread on it, but it seems relevant to here: I think the future might be essentially the rise of city states. If I'm wrong, please correct me, but my impression of history is that wealth has always congregated in cities and that despite the Americana suburban dream, the reality of the US being a wasteland outside of major cities mirrors the UK being kind of a shithole outside of London, I imagine the same applies to pretty much any country with wealthy urban centers and farmlands largely populated by a serf class that is always down and out to do agricultural labor with cities as trading hubs.

The entire planet is urbanizing, and technology is reducing labor necessity, so one question I have is can you really consider the fall of western society as something besides the re emergence of a city-state-centric model of power?

(please dismantle my stupidity if I'm completely wrong)

# ¿ Aug 13, 2017 19:44

Sneakster: Jul 13, 2017; by R. Guyovich

Pembroke Fuse posted:

I agree with this analysis, but the question still remains about why they decided/were compelled by alienation to join extra-political organizations like right-wing militias instead of left-wing militias, communes and the like. They were betrayed by the "left" and the right, but still tilted in a specific direction.

They weren't betrayed by the left, they were stomped on by the capitalist class. Normal people do not join militias or communes. Women and children at the edge of survival aren't the ones spending thousands on guns.

asdf32 posted:

But a large percentage of poor and working class people supported Trump who has zero to offer them. That's the thing to look at. The particulars of the problems we face aren't anywhere near as interesting as they seem because problems are inevitable (and especially problems of power concentration).

The question is whether the political system as a whole can adapt and to a large extent that depends on whether voters can make coherent choices or not. Selecting Trump was a failure, the next few elections will show whether any lessons have been learned or not. If not, democracy has failed, not capitalism.

The poor overwhelmingly supported Sanders, the political class did everything it could to remove that as a choice, and the poor largely dropped out after that point with old people being exceptionally gullible but between two capitalists who both pandered to the same ugliness (don't you loving dare pretend Clinton didn't support a wall, didn't pander to homophobia, and didn't cut welfare and campaign against expanding it).

You're projecting middle class support for colluding with capitalist interests as the poor supporting people in elections they ignored after the bourgeois stamped out any chance of reformist candidate.

You're calling into question the right of the poor to vote for liberals engineering fascism as the only alternative, and that in and of itself was supported by the bourgeois.

-> Poor people support socialist candidate
-> Bourgeois stamp that out
-> Poor people lose hope of reform and ignore election that holds nothing for them
-> Bourgeois vote for fascists
-> Conclusion: poor people being allowed to vote is the problem.

This is insane reasoning. You're projecting capitalist propaganda and expecting a worth while analysis. Apparently the digger revolution didn't work out because of racism, and it turns out the people with the most power and exploitative role in the system are truly the victims of lumpenprole supporting them. If you think about it, the heroes are white middle class liberals. Everyone else is a victim to be saved or a deranged mob.

# ¿ Aug 13, 2017 21:05

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Decline and Fall of Western Civilization.