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  • Locked thread
yronic heroism
Oct 31, 2008


Agreed. I'm VT.

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DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


The Ninth Layer posted:

For the record I didn't see anything in Kash's history that suggested he cleared me and if anything he seemed to be asking why people thought I was cleared. I'm town anyway so feel free to believe otherwise.

When he went from this D1:

Kashuno posted:

Agreed ##vote TNL

To this on D2:

Kashuno posted:

If I wasn't so sure you were Town TNL I would be like scum trying to save scum team

And then when I posted this:

DivineCoffeeBinge posted:

Kashuno... at first I was thinking "hey how convenient that his vanishing coincided with having a few votes on him" but I went back and checked and actually, no, it didn't at all; by the time he dropped out of posting for the day he had no votes on him, so it reads to me like he actually did have poo poo go down and not, like, a dude falling silent because he doesn't want to arouse suspicion. Plus if he had been quiet out of fear there'd be no reason for him to bring attention to himself with his apology post. So right now I'm leaning town. I would like to hear how he went from voting TNL to being certain TNL is town, though.

He responded with:

Kashuno posted:

Why is TNL confirmed Town?

Kashuno posted:

DCB tbh I lost my read on the game entirely and had to read it all again

That's the interpretation I've been using, at least, that his about-face was predicated on an investigation; I read the "Why is TNL confirmed Town?" as looking for clarification on my asking him for information. Looking back, though, it looks to me more like he was responding to derp declaring TNL as confirmed town out of nowhere, however.

Derp's only explanation:

derp posted:

i got a message in the night that said pretty much that. and everyone knows messages recieved in the night are the Word of Mod 100% true

2 penny bottle imp
Jun 11, 2008

I KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST SCUMMER

this is a stickup posted:

not really. echo cop with only 13 players: if its 4 scum and he picks 3 people, he'll be close to a 100% rate of finding 1 scum/2 town pairs. if he got 2/4 scum in one pair of 3, it's almost game over.

cutting it to monsters only 3+1 is still really good chances, but gives the scum a little room to hide, and makes sense thematically

Sorry I meant - if cop is only good against *non*-monsters, and its 2 + 2 scum teams, then the cop only has 1 non-godfather tesco person to catch.

sentimental snail
Nov 22, 2007

DID YOU SEE MY
PEYOTE QUEEN?


2 penny bottle imp posted:

Sorry I meant - if cop is only good against *non*-monsters, and its 2 + 2 scum teams, then the cop only has 1 non-godfather tesco person to catch.

oh, yeah. that would be very underpowered.

sentimental snail
Nov 22, 2007

DID YOU SEE MY
PEYOTE QUEEN?


The Ninth Layer posted:

If the game's not over today it's over tomorrow. We have a living claimed bodyguard. No reason not to claim at this point.

2 penny bottle imp
Jun 11, 2008

I KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST SCUMMER

## vote no lynch

I just think this gives us as much info as possible before we go into LyLo.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



There's an argument for no lynching as we're at even numbers today, which favors scum, and if there's only one player then it's not so bad to lose a townie (at the very least it eliminates a suspect from our suspect pool).

I'm reluctant to do it only because I don't want to get killed, would rather participate in deciding the candidate if possible.

2 penny bottle imp
Jun 11, 2008

I KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST SCUMMER

The Ninth Layer posted:

There's an argument for no lynching as we're at even numbers today, which favors scum, and if there's only one player then it's not so bad to lose a townie (at the very least it eliminates a suspect from our suspect pool).

I'm reluctant to do it only because I don't want to get killed, would rather participate in deciding the candidate if possible.

Well leaving your thoughts before the night ends puts it on the record, should you die.

yronic heroism
Oct 31, 2008


So we think each scum faction got one kill per night after N1?

What do we see as the scum reasoning for each night kill so far?

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


I don't know if I like a no-lynch. It feels terrible to me. Yes, I realize the irony.

That said, I'm pretty baked right now so I dunno.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



2 penny bottle imp posted:

Well leaving your thoughts before the night ends puts it on the record, should you die.

Yeah but thoughts isn't a vote.

votefinder
Jul 6, 2010

scoop scoop


Votecount for Day 4

2 penny bottle imp (1): yronic heroism
Lynch No One! (1): 2 penny bottle imp
The Ninth Layer (0): 2 penny bottle imp, 2 penny bottle imp

Not Voting (4): DivineCoffeeBinge, got some chores tonight, The Ninth Layer, this is a stickup

With 6 alive, it's 4 votes to execute. The current deadline is September 13th, 2017 at 8 p.m. CDT -- that's in about 20 hours, 53 minutes.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Looked over 2 penny bottle imp. Exchanges early joke votes with Flamander that could have been scum tipping the hat at each other. Found RF suspicious for controlling the conversation early, but soon votes yronic who he remains suspicious of for the rest of the game. In hindsight some of the points 2 penny bottle imp makes against yronic are good; for example I'd forgotten about yronic's strange Saith vote on day 1. He returns to voting yronic on Day 2 and also expresses suspicion against chores, but doesn't address the Flamander case or seem too convinced by it until the deadline, where he votes Flamander (5 votes) over stickup (3). Initially sides with derp and votes Mr.F! upon his watcher claim, unvoting then revoting him a few times while talking out the situation.

Overall I came away with a town impression of 2 penny bottle imp. He's been active throughout the game and has actively posted and pushed his own suspicions while evaluating the suspicions of others. He doesn't have too many interactions with scumbuddies, but he didn't hesitate to vote Flamander near deadline. The amount of work he did looking into the Mr. F! / derp situation is beyond what I would expect from two scumbuddies claiming masons and looks like a genuine effort to feel the situation out for the correct move. If he's scum then he's played a great game, especially for someone with only 3 SA games to their name.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



this is a stickup spends most of day 1 making joke posts, including a case against Mr. F! that was probably a joke, but toward deadline advances some suspicion on DCB and calls yronic scum for his Saith vote. stickup goes on to vote yronic shortly after his mistaken Saith vote and spends the rest of the day either casing yronic or defending himself against yronic, though he does express support for the Flamander case and has an exchange with Flamander near deadline that suggests stickup probably would have voted him. Spends day 3 voting yronic and claims he wishes he had 2 votes for him, expresses suspicion that derp can protect every night but otherwise seemed disposed against Mr.F!'s claim.

I am leaning town on stickup, he's been around and has the highest post count in the game, which is always hard for scum to accomplish. He's been defending himself a lot and has used meta a few times to defend himself, something I'm not thrilled about, but it's usually in the name of parry-riposte style exchanges with his chief suspicion yronic. One thing I don't like about stickup is that his vote has been fairly static on yronic and at times I got the impression he was riding the suspicion to avoid committing to other votes, like the Flamander wagon on day 2 that went down without him, but to stickup's credit he's still talked about players besides yronic and I'm pretty sure he's been present and willing to move his vote on previous deadlines.

yronic heroism
Oct 31, 2008


If we're really talking about the Saith thing let's talk about it. Honestly it was a disgust vote against lurking. Yes it was late but it was pure Day 1 poo poo. I was always willing to switch my vote to hammer. Which is something an active town or scum would do so doesn't really tell you much. Sometimes a weird D1 vote is just a weird D1 vote.

yronic heroism
Oct 31, 2008


TNL can you break it down: who do you think is scummiest and who do you see as second scummiest?

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



I saved DivineCoffeeBinge for last because I didn't want to revisit the headache-inducing day 1 argument he was advancing. Putting aside day 1 voting philosophy that maybe we can discuss less adversarially post-game, I do think advancing that argument was a convenient way for DCB not to have to weigh in on anybody. On day 2 DCB snaps at me for pointing this out in a post that it took me great restraint not to quote with "OMGUS" but he doesn't really push me as scum and shortly after that starts talking about other players, eventually voting chores for hammering someone after a day of lurking. Eventually consolidates to Flamander citing that he prefers the case over stickup; both players had 3 votes at the time of DCB's vote so he effectively puts Flamander as the lynch leader. Expresses some suspicion of stickup the following day, then votes derp on the logic that derp's roleclaim of infinite self-protects is overpowered, a position that makes sense coming from the bodyguard.

I dunno, I have a neutral read of DCB but a lot of that could just be differences in play style. Some of his posts come off as extra-wordy, for example I'm not sure what in that bodyguard claim post needed eight paragraphs to explain. He focuses a lot on roles, claims, and setup speculation, and not as much on what I would call "day play," or the intricacies of the cases and votes people are making. Because of this I had trouble following his suspicions throughout the game or finding consistent opinions across his posts; it's hard to tell when he's talking about something because it has setup implications or because he thinks it's telling of a scum alignment. For example his recent scum list featuring 2 penny bottle imp at the top and me at second scummiest doesn't at all reflect what he was saying the previous day. Offsetting all of this are his two votes against flipped scum; DCB voted Flamander when he and stickup were tied (something Flamander's buddy didn't have to do) and voted derp above Mr.F! in their claim-off. His bodyguard claim could be a fake claim like derp's doctor claim was, but if so he's almost certainly Monster and not Tesco aligned, and aside from this claim there's still nothing I've seen that could have stopped the night 1 kills.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



yronic heroism posted:

TNL can you break it down: who do you think is scummiest and who do you see as second scummiest?

Fresh off just reading post histories I think you are scummiest at the moment, haven't been crazy about where you have parked a lot of your votes.

Second scummiest I would need to look things over again, my initial read of chores was fairly positive but maybe just because he was the first I picked, but he's a fair choice for Tesco-aligned, DCB for monster aligned.

I have a slight town read on stickup, or at least I don't think Flamander was trying to bus him. I could see him as Tesco aligned but eh, overall feel good about him.

I feel pretty good about 2bpi as town, or at least if he's scum then he's doing a really good job of it as either alignment.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



I'll see how I feel about things tomorrow though.

yronic heroism posted:

If we're really talking about the Saith thing let's talk about it. Honestly it was a disgust vote against lurking. Yes it was late but it was pure Day 1 poo poo. I was always willing to switch my vote to hammer. Which is something an active town or scum would do so doesn't really tell you much. Sometimes a weird D1 vote is just a weird D1 vote.

It wasn't just that it was a weird day 1 vote, it's that it was a weird day 1 vote at a time when we were all explicitly talking about vote consolidation. It read like you weren't aware of the main conversation that was happening in the thread, and then your RF vote read like you realized how conspicuous your vote was and had to correct for it.

yronic heroism
Oct 31, 2008


But scum knows when the vote leader is not one of them. If anything, the scum play would have been to just pile on without messing around with my vote.

yronic heroism
Oct 31, 2008


I'm going to ##unvote for now and share some impressions later today. I'm afraid maybe I'm tunneling on imp.

yronic heroism
Oct 31, 2008


The Ninth Layer posted:

Fresh off just reading post histories I think you are scummiest at the moment, haven't been crazy about where you have parked a lot of your votes.

Second scummiest I would need to look things over again, my initial read of chores was fairly positive but maybe just because he was the first I picked, but he's a fair choice for Tesco-aligned, DCB for monster aligned.

I have a slight town read on stickup, or at least I don't think Flamander was trying to bus him. I could see him as Tesco aligned but eh, overall feel good about him.

I feel pretty good about 2bpi as town, or at least if he's scum then he's doing a really good job of it as either alignment.

First impression: Town could legit believe this but if TNL is scum this would be devious politicking to get imp and stickup to take me out, since they've been willing to do so in the past, then he keeps the option of a case against DCB or chores open.

I think TNL is capable of devious scum play, so it's a problem.

2 penny bottle imp
Jun 11, 2008

I KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST SCUMMER

yronic heroism posted:

First impression: Town could legit believe this but if TNL is scum this would be devious politicking to get imp and stickup to take me out, since they've been willing to do so in the past, then he keeps the option of a case against DCB or chores open.

I think TNL is capable of devious scum play, so it's a problem.

Fair comment, as I admit I am a bit biased to agree with TNL there.

Probably no more posts from me until 1 hr before deadline tonight.

yronic heroism
Oct 31, 2008


Capn Andy analysis aside, I tend to think the remaining scum player is good, which also points me toward TNL. One thing i will try to game out is what every remaining player's game looks like if that player is scum, then evaluate how plausible these are in relative terms.

got some chores tonight
Feb 18, 2012

honk honk whats for lunch...


i will lay the first ##vote: dcb

got some chores tonight
Feb 18, 2012

honk honk whats for lunch...


most of dcb's activity is related to how we should play the game or what the game setup is or rehashing of game state rather than scumhunting

dcb also pressed kash on his alignment call, i think, to target him for nk under suspicions of coppery

plus i dont like reading his posts

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


The Ninth Layer posted:

I dunno, I have a neutral read of DCB but a lot of that could just be differences in play style. Some of his posts come off as extra-wordy, for example I'm not sure what in that bodyguard claim post needed eight paragraphs to explain

This is a fair cop; I have a tendency to get too wordy. I write for a living, and I like writing, and I can get carried away with it, because as a general rule I'd rather err on the side of using too many words and sharing too much information than using and sharing too little of either.

That's probably not changing, just fyi.

got some chores tonight posted:

dcb also pressed kash on his alignment call, i think, to target him for nk under suspicions of coppery

Wait, you think I pressed Kash on his alignment call because I thought he was a cop, despite a lack of evidence, to subtly signal the scum that they should kill him? For someone who thinks I'm a moron, you're giving me a lot of credit for a pretty subtle play, there, my man.

2 penny bottle imp
Jun 11, 2008

I KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST SCUMMER

DivineCoffeeBinge posted:

Wait, you think I pressed Kash on his alignment call because I thought he was a cop, despite a lack of evidence, to subtly signal the scum that they should kill him? For someone who thinks I'm a moron, you're giving me a lot of credit for a pretty subtle play, there, my man.

Are you sk- slipping here? His implication is that you are scum and you wanted to know if you yourself should NK kash. Why are you assuming the remaining anti-town player would have to signal through the thread itself that Kash should be NK'd?

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


2 penny bottle imp posted:

Are you sk- slipping here? His implication is that you are scum and you wanted to know if you yourself should NK kash. Why are you assuming the remaining anti-town player would have to signal through the thread itself that Kash should be NK'd?

Ah, that makes more sense. I was sitting there reading it going "why the hell wouldn't I just use the scumdoc if I thought Kash was scum?" and it never crossed my mind that he might be implying me as the SK, given that my read on the roles and the multiple flipped scum factions was that the remaining scum is probably a goon or framer or something for the Monster faction rather than an SK; I've been chalking the multiple kill nights up to derp's Tesco faction.

That's the kind of structural analysis that people are saying I've been concentrating too heavily on, mind you, but c'est la guerre.

2 penny bottle imp
Jun 11, 2008

I KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST SCUMMER

DivineCoffeeBinge posted:

Ah, that makes more sense. I was sitting there reading it going "why the hell wouldn't I just use the scumdoc if I thought Kash was scum?" and it never crossed my mind that he might be implying me as the SK, given that my read on the roles and the multiple flipped scum factions was that the remaining scum is probably a goon or framer or something for the Monster faction rather than an SK; I've been chalking the multiple kill nights up to derp's Tesco faction.

That's the kind of structural analysis that people are saying I've been concentrating too heavily on, mind you, but c'est la guerre.

Let me reiterate:

Chores was implying that you were scum (or really any anti-town role), and that you wanted Kash to claim cop so you (or your anti-town buddies) would NK him. Chores was suggesting that you were asking Kash questions so he would reveal that the source of his info was role based.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


2 penny bottle imp posted:

Let me reiterate:

Chores was implying that you were scum (or really any anti-town role), and that you wanted Kash to claim cop so you (or your anti-town buddies) would NK him. Chores was suggesting that you were asking Kash questions so he would reveal that the source of his info was role based.

Yes, I get that. I am reiterating that for someone who thinks I'm stupid, that's giving me a lot of credit.

Bluntly, I'm not that smart. I was asking Kash questions in the hopes that his inconsistency would give me reason to suspect either him or TNL as scum, possibly as a team of scum.

sentimental snail
Nov 22, 2007

DID YOU SEE MY
PEYOTE QUEEN?


I'm caught up but mostly unavailable today fyi. I'll be around before deadline

yronic heroism
Oct 31, 2008


votefinder posted:

Votecount for Day 4

2 penny bottle imp (1): yronic heroism
Lynch No One! (1): 2 penny bottle imp
The Ninth Layer (0): 2 penny bottle imp, 2 penny bottle imp

Not Voting (4): DivineCoffeeBinge, got some chores tonight, The Ninth Layer, this is a stickup

With 6 alive, it's 4 votes to execute. The current deadline is September 13th, 2017 at 8 p.m. CDT -- that's in about 20 hours, 53 minutes.

Really expecting us to turbo after the long weekend.

yronic heroism
Oct 31, 2008


DCB: who did you bodyguard on previous nights?

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



DivineCoffeeBinge posted:

This is a fair cop; I have a tendency to get too wordy. I write for a living, and I like writing, and I can get carried away with it, because as a general rule I'd rather err on the side of using too many words and sharing too much information than using and sharing too little of either.

That's probably not changing, just fyi.

A good rule of thumb in Mafia is the more words you write, the less likely people are to read your posts. I sorta think of wordiness as a scum tell because it's a way for people to inflate their posts and look like they are saying more than they are. More practically, Mafia is a game of persuasion and it's easier to persuade people when you can express your thoughts efficiently.

DivineCoffeeBinge posted:

Yes, I get that. I am reiterating that for someone who thinks I'm stupid, that's giving me a lot of credit.

Bluntly, I'm not that smart. I was asking Kash questions in the hopes that his inconsistency would give me reason to suspect either him or TNL as scum, possibly as a team of scum.

Put another way you're being accused of role fishing Kash, that's not a move you'd need to be a genius to pull off.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


yronic heroism posted:

DCB: who did you bodyguard on previous nights?

N1: yronic
N2: 2 penny bottle imp
N3: TNL

In each instance I got a message saying I had successfully protected them, which - it was made clear - it not an indication that they were targeted, only that I was not roleblocked.

The fact that all of the people I have bodyguarded are still in the game is an indication that I am either really good at my job, or really, really bad at it.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


The Ninth Layer posted:

A good rule of thumb in Mafia is the more words you write, the less likely people are to read your posts. I sorta think of wordiness as a scum tell because it's a way for people to inflate their posts and look like they are saying more than they are. More practically, Mafia is a game of persuasion and it's easier to persuade people when you can express your thoughts efficiently.

Fair enough, but honestly, it's probably not changing. I'm was a wordy kid, then a wordy guy, now I'm a wordy old person, it's just how it is.

Incidentally if we're looking at word count as scumtell I've always been more suspicious of the people who shotgun several one-line posts in rapid succession, as it's always seemed to me to be a way to inflate one's post count while keeping the information actually shared to a minimum. I suppose it works either way.

sentimental snail
Nov 22, 2007

DID YOU SEE MY
PEYOTE QUEEN?


DivineCoffeeBinge posted:

In each instance I got a message saying I had successfully protected them, which - it was made clear - it not an indication that they were targeted, only that I was not roleblocked.

The fact that all of the people I have bodyguarded are still in the game is an indication that I am either really good at my job, or really, really bad at it.

first bit feels a bit like you're trying to justify something you wouldn't be worried about if you as town

last bit is something killers claiming doc or bodyguard say a lot. as a corollary to good players that last long -> scum, are protectors that protect but never succeed actually protecting, or scum?

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


this is a stickup posted:

first bit feels a bit like you're trying to justify something you wouldn't be worried about if you as town

last bit is something killers claiming doc or bodyguard say a lot. as a corollary to good players that last long -> scum, are protectors that protect but never succeed actually protecting, or scum?

I noted it mostly because I think I did stop a kill, but if that's how you want to interpret it, go for it I guess

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DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


Since the idea of a massclaim has been floated, claims thus far:

2 penny bottle imp has made no claim

DivineCoffeeBinge claims town bulletproof bodyguard

got some chores tonight has made no claim

The Ninth Layer claims VT

this is a stickup does not want to claim; claims he has some kind of surprise for the scum (unless it's imp?), doesn't want to spoil a surprise. Also mentioned earlier that something about his role made him believe that it was possible to have a Lover involved somewhere as an possible explanation for Kash's death.

yronic heroism claims VT

I'm not thrilled with stickup's apparent desire to drop hints about his role without actually claiming, which seems like hedging to me; he wants you think he's got a power role of some sort without actually explaining what that could be while simultaneously dropping hints that visiting him is bad as a hedge against investigative actions, and the bit about Kash (specifically "due to my own role, I suppose could also buy kash being a lover") seems an unnecessary muddying of the waters. With two other players who haven't made any claim kicking around, it's not like there was any real pressure on him to join the rest of us in claiming, so if secrecy is important for him he could have just shut his mouth and said nothing.

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