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DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


Also Somberbrero ran a game of Tontine that was super-fun, maybe that was the game that made me think of Kashuno as a Bad Person since he cruelly betrayed me in that game

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DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


Okay, let's see what we've got. Our remaining players in alphabetical order:

2 penny bottle imp hasn't really advanced any cases that haven't been made by others, which always reads scummy to me, with the notable exception of the now-unprovable "derp told me in mason chat that TNL was town so TNL must be scum." Unconfirmed mason would be a hell of a scum play, but I'm not sure if I want to give him that much credit. On the other hand he only made that play once derp laid the groundwork. Of all remaining players, however, scummiest by far.

DivineCoffeeBinge is, of course, above reproach.

got some chores tonight was dead certain on Mr. F!, stayed dead certain even as the question of derp came up, but just as dead certain on flerp. Could be a case of Tesco-scum knowing who monster-scum were? Maybe? gently caress I don't know this game is hard.

The Ninth Layer is quite good and has played a whole lot of Mafia, which begs the question of how the heck he is still alive. While I'm not ready to get on board with the infamous Cap'n Andy Gambit (i.e. "scum want to get rid of experienced players first, therefore as the game progresses the experienced players who aren't killed by scum are very probably scum and should be killed," and can you tell I spent a few hours reading through my old Mafia games?), it bears mentioning. Kashuno alluded to his towniness in what I've been interpreting as the results of his N1 investigation, though I suppose the possibility of a Naive or Insane Cop shouldn't be discounted (an Insane Cop might be a good fit for the flavor, honestly, but I can't really get behind flavor arguments). I protected him last night thinking that scum would go after the one guy who seemed as confirmed townie as you can get, figuring that if someone else died that would raise some questions, but instead last night was a scum-on-scum bloodbath so who the gently caress even knows. His continued existence makes me nervous, though.

this is a stickup tunneled in on yronic all of the early game, seems to have (mostly) abandoned that. I'm curious what about his own role makes him think the possibility of Kash as a lover is plausible. "so I guess it was flam+flerp and derp+imp" is a good conclusion and for the most part I like it.

yronic heroism is quiet and hard for me to read, given that most of his posts have been made under the pressure of stickup's tunneling, but has never read as scummy to me as others seem to have been thinking.

Other thoughts:

The flip of derp as Godfather confuses the hell out of me, as it throws Mr. F!'s description of seeing him visit Kash into confusion; I have always been under the impression that the whole point of having a Godfather is that they don't kill anyone, they send other people out to kill people. Having said that, if we're operating under the assumption that there are 2 teams of 2 scum and the other Tesco-aligned scum is a framer or some other non-goon role, that's not definitive.

The other possibility is that there are three Monster-aligned scum and derp's Tesco alignment is (was) indicative of an SK or Survivor or some other neutral or neutral-ish role, which perhaps shouldn't be discounted (note that TNL discounts it immediately, unprompted).

flerp's Ninja flip is also concerning, as the only solid detail we've had for a few days has come from a now-dead watcher, and Ninjas are traditionally, as I understand it, immune to being spotted by watchers. Possibly a non-vig explanation for the two multi-kill nights, if the Ninja needed time to get ready or something? I genuinely have no idea, it's the first game I've ever encountered that role in so I'm not familiar with the way power roles tend to be arrayed to balance it.

My personal list, then, in order of scummiest to towniest, at this time:
1. imp
2. TNL
3. chores
4. stickup
5. yronic
6. me, because of course it is

Subject to change based on getting some more caffeine and thinking about it some more - flerp's flip really upended my prior suppositions, and I need to do some rereading. But that's where I stand at the moment.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


Actually the more I think on it the more I don't like the notion of Kash possibly having been naive or insane because that seems like a dramatic weakening of a town power role in a game where the scum include a jailor and a ninja.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


2 penny bottle imp posted:

* and a godfather.

Eh, I don't see that a Godfather's existence would have any effect on making a cop naive or insane - even a normal, entirely sane cop is still going to get a town result from a GF, so the fact that a naive cop would get a town result from a GF makes no difference overall.

Which is a pretty arcane and picayune thing to disagree on, I admit.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


Something else I just thought of that bears noting: I've been assuming, I think we've all been assuming, that Kashuno's "well I reread the posts and TNL looks like town to me now" bit was a softclaim, but since he never made any definitive claims it's entirely possible that he investigated someone else and changed his mind on TNL for exactly the reason he posted.

That is to say, I'm not certain we can count on Kashuno's about-face as an investigation result.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


The Ninth Layer posted:

Uhh, how did you recruit derp based on his doctor claim if you had to pick someone on night 0 to recruit?

I pointed this out earlier - derp claimed N0, basically during confirmations. At the time I took it as a jokevote; apparently imp did not.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


yronic heroism posted:

I am not cool with that because I don't think we have enough anti scum powers left with cop and watcher gone.

I second this, especially since we've had two nightkills for a few nights now and our assumption that there are only 4 scumbos is just that.

(I would be kinda stunned if it weren't the case, but if there are mutually-opposed scum teams that have it out for each other as much as they have it out for town I could sorta see it, if I squint)

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


2 penny bottle imp posted:

5 scum in a 13 person game, with the only town roles so far as cop (but there's a godfather), watcher (but there's a ninja), and mason (but I'm an idiot) would be pretty rough.

I thought so too, but then I was wondering if maybe there was a blanket-enforced n1 no-kill to balance it out. That does seem a little much, though.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


this is a stickup posted:

if kash posted that as cop without realizing we would believe it is a soft claim, I will yell at him later

Does Kash strike you as the kind of player who'd let that stop him?

That's a serious question by the way, I'm never sure how much of the "eh, effort is hard, I'm just gonna cruise in and drop three one-line posts and then jet for the day" style of play I see some players use is genuine and how much it's a tactic.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


this is a stickup posted:

kash has enough awareness to not clear someone if he hasn't cleared them imo. he usually gives real reads and opinions, even if they are often one liners.

Fair enough, thank you.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


The Ninth Layer posted:

For the record I didn't see anything in Kash's history that suggested he cleared me and if anything he seemed to be asking why people thought I was cleared. I'm town anyway so feel free to believe otherwise.

When he went from this D1:

Kashuno posted:

Agreed ##vote TNL

To this on D2:

Kashuno posted:

If I wasn't so sure you were Town TNL I would be like scum trying to save scum team

And then when I posted this:

DivineCoffeeBinge posted:

Kashuno... at first I was thinking "hey how convenient that his vanishing coincided with having a few votes on him" but I went back and checked and actually, no, it didn't at all; by the time he dropped out of posting for the day he had no votes on him, so it reads to me like he actually did have poo poo go down and not, like, a dude falling silent because he doesn't want to arouse suspicion. Plus if he had been quiet out of fear there'd be no reason for him to bring attention to himself with his apology post. So right now I'm leaning town. I would like to hear how he went from voting TNL to being certain TNL is town, though.

He responded with:

Kashuno posted:

Why is TNL confirmed Town?

Kashuno posted:

DCB tbh I lost my read on the game entirely and had to read it all again

That's the interpretation I've been using, at least, that his about-face was predicated on an investigation; I read the "Why is TNL confirmed Town?" as looking for clarification on my asking him for information. Looking back, though, it looks to me more like he was responding to derp declaring TNL as confirmed town out of nowhere, however.

Derp's only explanation:

derp posted:

i got a message in the night that said pretty much that. and everyone knows messages recieved in the night are the Word of Mod 100% true

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


I don't know if I like a no-lynch. It feels terrible to me. Yes, I realize the irony.

That said, I'm pretty baked right now so I dunno.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


The Ninth Layer posted:

I dunno, I have a neutral read of DCB but a lot of that could just be differences in play style. Some of his posts come off as extra-wordy, for example I'm not sure what in that bodyguard claim post needed eight paragraphs to explain

This is a fair cop; I have a tendency to get too wordy. I write for a living, and I like writing, and I can get carried away with it, because as a general rule I'd rather err on the side of using too many words and sharing too much information than using and sharing too little of either.

That's probably not changing, just fyi.

got some chores tonight posted:

dcb also pressed kash on his alignment call, i think, to target him for nk under suspicions of coppery

Wait, you think I pressed Kash on his alignment call because I thought he was a cop, despite a lack of evidence, to subtly signal the scum that they should kill him? For someone who thinks I'm a moron, you're giving me a lot of credit for a pretty subtle play, there, my man.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


2 penny bottle imp posted:

Are you sk- slipping here? His implication is that you are scum and you wanted to know if you yourself should NK kash. Why are you assuming the remaining anti-town player would have to signal through the thread itself that Kash should be NK'd?

Ah, that makes more sense. I was sitting there reading it going "why the hell wouldn't I just use the scumdoc if I thought Kash was scum?" and it never crossed my mind that he might be implying me as the SK, given that my read on the roles and the multiple flipped scum factions was that the remaining scum is probably a goon or framer or something for the Monster faction rather than an SK; I've been chalking the multiple kill nights up to derp's Tesco faction.

That's the kind of structural analysis that people are saying I've been concentrating too heavily on, mind you, but c'est la guerre.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


2 penny bottle imp posted:

Let me reiterate:

Chores was implying that you were scum (or really any anti-town role), and that you wanted Kash to claim cop so you (or your anti-town buddies) would NK him. Chores was suggesting that you were asking Kash questions so he would reveal that the source of his info was role based.

Yes, I get that. I am reiterating that for someone who thinks I'm stupid, that's giving me a lot of credit.

Bluntly, I'm not that smart. I was asking Kash questions in the hopes that his inconsistency would give me reason to suspect either him or TNL as scum, possibly as a team of scum.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


yronic heroism posted:

DCB: who did you bodyguard on previous nights?

N1: yronic
N2: 2 penny bottle imp
N3: TNL

In each instance I got a message saying I had successfully protected them, which - it was made clear - it not an indication that they were targeted, only that I was not roleblocked.

The fact that all of the people I have bodyguarded are still in the game is an indication that I am either really good at my job, or really, really bad at it.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


The Ninth Layer posted:

A good rule of thumb in Mafia is the more words you write, the less likely people are to read your posts. I sorta think of wordiness as a scum tell because it's a way for people to inflate their posts and look like they are saying more than they are. More practically, Mafia is a game of persuasion and it's easier to persuade people when you can express your thoughts efficiently.

Fair enough, but honestly, it's probably not changing. I'm was a wordy kid, then a wordy guy, now I'm a wordy old person, it's just how it is.

Incidentally if we're looking at word count as scumtell I've always been more suspicious of the people who shotgun several one-line posts in rapid succession, as it's always seemed to me to be a way to inflate one's post count while keeping the information actually shared to a minimum. I suppose it works either way.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


this is a stickup posted:

first bit feels a bit like you're trying to justify something you wouldn't be worried about if you as town

last bit is something killers claiming doc or bodyguard say a lot. as a corollary to good players that last long -> scum, are protectors that protect but never succeed actually protecting, or scum?

I noted it mostly because I think I did stop a kill, but if that's how you want to interpret it, go for it I guess

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


Since the idea of a massclaim has been floated, claims thus far:

2 penny bottle imp has made no claim

DivineCoffeeBinge claims town bulletproof bodyguard

got some chores tonight has made no claim

The Ninth Layer claims VT

this is a stickup does not want to claim; claims he has some kind of surprise for the scum (unless it's imp?), doesn't want to spoil a surprise. Also mentioned earlier that something about his role made him believe that it was possible to have a Lover involved somewhere as an possible explanation for Kash's death.

yronic heroism claims VT

I'm not thrilled with stickup's apparent desire to drop hints about his role without actually claiming, which seems like hedging to me; he wants you think he's got a power role of some sort without actually explaining what that could be while simultaneously dropping hints that visiting him is bad as a hedge against investigative actions, and the bit about Kash (specifically "due to my own role, I suppose could also buy kash being a lover") seems an unnecessary muddying of the waters. With two other players who haven't made any claim kicking around, it's not like there was any real pressure on him to join the rest of us in claiming, so if secrecy is important for him he could have just shut his mouth and said nothing.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


...derp claimed doctor, not watcher. Mr. F! claimed (and was!) watcher; Flamander was the jailor.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


yronic heroism posted:

DCB is formerly spiderhyphenman right? If so, wordiness is not surprising.

No, I've always been DivineCoffeeBinge. The avatar was a BSS thing that got out of hand; see the SAclopedia.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


In fact SpiderHyphenMan complained that he didn't get a Hard Hat Spider-Man avatar like 20 other posters did, and was given a new avatar of a hardhatless Spider-Man getting hit in the head with a fallen brick.

BSS is an odd place.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


this is a stickup posted:

all those words about me not saying anything about the claim sitch is a scum pov. personally, I spoke up when asked directly because, as town, I have an interest in sharing information with the rest of the town when it benefits us, and am willing to do so if we mass claim.

an informed town is objectively better than uninformed, but I don't have a role with results or info that can truly clear me, or anyone else.

Y'know, I hashed this over in my head for a bit, but screw it. This is a bullshit post.

If you genuinely believe that's scummy of me, you go right ahead and put your vote down; when I flip town it'll be useful to the survivors, because they'll be able to look back at the bandwagon and who thought it was important to drive it.

"An informed town is objectively better than uninformed" when you've been soft-pedaling any kind of claim for days now while carefully dropping hints? What a crock.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


yronic heroism posted:

Doesn't seem like we'll get a 4 vote consensus.

I don't think night will tell us much since any kill of town is subject to wifom.

I wish you were wrong. I'd honestly rather get lynched, to tell you the truth.

I've been accused of scumminess for the high crimes of "questioned the wisdom of the prevailing meta" and "used too many words," for gently caress's sake; at this point, keeping me around is only benefiting scum. No one's going to believe I'm acting in good faith and no one's going to listen to a word I have to say. So come on, folks who think my behavior has been terribly scummy, line up and cast those votes. Better a corpse, at this point, than continuing to polarize discussion.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


got some chores tonight posted:

as a reminder, last player to do the "oh i guess everyone just thinks im scum why do i even bother playing just vote me already" thing was scum

as a reminder, the last guy chores pointed at as scum and said "oh this game is easy" was Mr. F!, who was town

Seriously, people, hurry up and tie the rope so you aren't too busy looking at me to actually hunt scum

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


The Ninth Layer posted:

Why don't you advance suspicions instead of whining that people find you scummy on a late game day?

I'm genuinely not trying to whine; I apologize if I come across that way. I'm saying that I honestly and truly believe that my lynch would not be a bad thing for town and might in fact be useful, because if I'm not around the scum can't point and go "but look how scummy DCB is!" to deflect suspicion. As mind-numbingly stupid as I find some of the arguments that have been made against me, they have been made, and believed, and no one's going to stop thinking them just because I point and say they're dumb.

As for why I don't advance suspicions, when I talked about stickup, when I gave my list, and when I explained why stickup's lack of roleclaim seemed shady to me, each has been met with either resounding silence or accusations that those cases, themselves, were scummy. As I know I'm not scum, and I have no desire to distract town from finding the actual scum, I have been somewhat leery of drawing attention with my well-meaning-but-apparently-terrible posts.

I'm honestly not upset or anything; I genuinely do think that if I'm no longer around, scum has less cover, and that can only be a good thing for town. As I want town to win, welp...

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


Christ how sad is it that I'm standing here yelling "go ahead and kill me then you won't have to read my posts any more" and people still aren't sure whether to go for it

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


The Ninth Layer posted:

Because it's a loving bad idea for us if you are actually town, one reason why I am mystified you would argue for it.

Are you scum??? If you aren't then why would you argue for us to flip the only person you know for a fact isn't scum?

Because I don't want town to tunnel in on me when there's actual scum out there to catch? The other prevailing option right now is a no-lynch, which gets us in the same spot tomorrow only with one fewer townie.

...if I'm being completely honest my stress level has been pretty high the last couple of days because my wife hasn't been feeling well, which isn't helping, but still.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


The Ninth Layer posted:

Who loving cares if town tunnel on you, it's only a problem if you actually get voted and flipped. That's the only bad consequence of people thinking you are suspicious.

You honestly don't think it's a problem when we start off D5 with players going "welp, we all know DCB is scum, let's just lynch him" the same way they're doing right now? You honestly mean to tell me you think that's not useful to the actual scum who are out there looking for all the cover they can get?

I mean, fine, I take your point, I'll knock it off, but frankly I disagree with you.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


2 penny bottle imp posted:

I think you have talked more about lynching yourself than anyone else.

Nah, fewer words, just more posts.

People want more cases, I'll make more cases.

Chores: gets credit for being post leader, but starts off with song lyrics for half a page on his post history, then was silent for D1 before he swept in to hammer RetroFuturist at the literal last second. "i believe that the scum killed tobbs and kash was killed by a town player for extremely bad posting yesterday" jumps out at me for some reason that I can't quite put my finger on. Spends a day laser-focused on Mr. F!; when it turns out Mr. F! was town, he's the only one of the people who voted for him to give himself some cover by posting about how bad a town player he (Mr. F!) is. I don't think he's wrong, only that he's the only one who felt the need to make the post for cover. As near as I can tell his entire case on Mr. F! amounted to "because I said so," or if there was more depth of thought there he did not bother sharing with the rest of the class. Was the first person to vote for a player today after the rationale for a no-lynch had been set forth (imp was the first to vote a player, but unvoted shortly after and then made the no-lynch suggestion).

Stickup: Has consistently voted for people who later flipped town (I talked about this days ago), while avoiding voting for Flamander. Later tries to say he was "supporting Flamander's lynch" (in this post) while keeping his vote on yronic all day, where there was no bandwagon whatsoever and it might as well have been a no-vote. Has alluded to having a n0 action and some kind of special ability, has shared very little of that information. I'm still thinking he'd be a good lynch for the reasons I stated way back when I claimed bodyguard.

Imp: God drat I'm getting more and more convinced that that mason claim is some kind of genius; it still jumps out to me that derp was the first person to discuss masonry, potentially laying groundwork for his much-less-experienced (3rd game!) scumbuddy to have some cover if he lets slip that he has information he couldn't otherwise have. My gut tells me that's a stretch, though. His posting's been scummy but I can hardly throw too many stones here. I'm actually leaning town on imp right now. First one to call for a no-lynch, as well, which is hardly beneficial to scum at this point.

TNL: I've been having troubles separating TNL's later play from my own reaction to the "headache-inducing" argument we had on D1, which I'll admit has left me a little more gunshy when it comes to checking him out. Was absolutely convinced that derp was town, and was vocal about that. His play today reads very towny to me, though. The comments he made about "The only risk to a no lynch" are ones that occurred to me as well, but if he was scum there'd be no reason to bring them up.

yronic: Again, have to try and move past my own biases based on the fact that I was stone cold certain that my protecting him N1 and stickup's immediate tunneling on him D2 was Important. That said, he never has seemed overly scummy to me. The D2 stickup/yronic slapfight took up too much spotlight from these two for me to get a super clear read.

Stickup or chores, those are my choices, but under the present circumstances I think it's smarter to ##vote no lynch. The worst case scenarios there are better than the worst case scenarios of voting wrong.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


got some chores tonight posted:

a scum player literally already did it this game!!!

And look how well it worked out for them! A scum player would have to be either really stupid or really ballsy to say "let me use the same strategy that failed for Flamander, it'll work for me because I'm just that good"

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DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


yronic heroism posted:

WTF was with that DCB self sacrifice/flam self vote stuff though. (Don't tell us till game over if you read this, DCB.) Like, some day there will be a gambit where people unironically claim to be scum if that hasn't already happened or doesn't have some mafiascum wiki term.

That was me being on tilt after a truly lovely day and making about as many bad game choices as I could possibly have made. It was lovely, I feel bad about it, sorry.

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