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Cernunnos
Sep 2, 2011


Watching through Ex-Aid now and Dr Pac-man comes after episode 8 right?

Where do the other specials fit in?

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gourdcaptain
Nov 16, 2012



Cernunnos posted:

Watching through Ex-Aid now and Dr Pac-man comes after episode 8 right?

Where do the other specials fit in?

I actually worked out an Ex-Aid viewing order semi-recently for a friend (going partially off memory and partially off other people's conclusions), and I think that movie comes after 10 (certainly no later).
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ei2b65jk6...0List.docx?dl=0

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

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Caphi posted:

Warren Statesman was just the meme. What I do remember was /m/ complaining about "Ornac" for six threads straight.
What I remember was somebody saying they'd do a version with things like that "fixed" in each episode and release them.

And then it turned out they stopped because nobody downloaded their version at all.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



I don't really think changing names is territory subs should get into. That feels more like dub territory.

But I respect the thought process that goes into it, as far as Gaim is related, at least.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE


Fun Shoe

PMush Perfect posted:

What I remember was somebody saying they'd do a version with things like that "fixed" in each episode and release them.

And then it turned out they stopped because nobody downloaded their version at all.

Yeah I think they added all the sans and stuff back in too.

Our policy was "godspeed" on grounds that name romanizations or whatever were not remotely as important as all the flagrant mistranslations we were seeing in TVN, so if people just had a preference, it was better off existing than not. A lot of those decisions were in some amount of contention from the moment of conception anyway. Everyone in Aesir came from an amateur background and I think that really became enshrined in house style.

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

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Personally, I feel like trying to be 100% faithful is a fool's errand. There IS no way to be 100% faithful because some things will just not translate across cultural borders.

Basic example: Kita. Either you're finding a translation that fits the theme ("It's space time!") or you're leaving enough things untranslated that it takes a serious amount of knowledge of Japanese to understand.

And at that point, why are you even watching a sub?

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



I never said ya had to be 100 % faithful. I just believe, personally, 95 % of the time you should leave names and other proper nouns alone.

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

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I'm just saying I'm on the side of Woolseyisms. Ornac is charming and silly and dumb, which is exactly how Guridon is supposed to sound.

In retrospect, I do think they could have gotten by fine with Sengöku Driver, though.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


Attack names, generally, you leave be.

King Of Kai Fist is nowhere near as cool as KAOIKEN even if Kaoiken is literal nonsense in English.

Turtle Destruction Wave might be great to have translated though. Imagine a very different 90s, where a bunch of edge lord teens were shouting with utmost seriousness "SUPER TURTLE DESTRUCTION WAVE!"

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



I just find it kind of arbitrary sometimes. I mean, you wouldn't translate Excalibur as "Awesomeblade", would you?

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


That's the thing

It's entirely arbitrary.

It's super just up to the whim of the one who translates. Excalibur has so many different names due to translations it's ridiculous

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

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TFRazorsaw posted:

I just find it kind of arbitrary sometimes. I mean, you wouldn't translate Excalibur as "Awesomeblade", would you?

It's not arbitrary as much as it's all juts played by ear because not every thing needs to be considered so closely when it comes to 'Do we translate it directly, localize it so the intent of the phrase or name is intact and as obvious in this language as it is in the original, or just leave it untranslated?' Turns out it's a topic requiring more nuance and deft handedness than just saying 'gently caress it leave all proper nouns the same.' Arbitrary means there's no real thought going behind it which is untrue of most translations.

Of course a good localization can actually improve a show. The Room Of Spirit and Time sounds magical, but in a really vague way that sounds like it could be a generic Zelda temple. The Hyperbolic Time Chamber sounds advanced and magical and explains exactly what the thing is and does right there in its name.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Burkion posted:

That's the thing

It's entirely arbitrary.

It's super just up to the whim of the one who translates. Excalibur has so many different names due to translations it's ridiculous

I think there's a difference between different versions that existed based on local retellings of the story hundreds of years ago and translations made in a more global society centuries later where different aspects of culture, society, and history are more broadly disseminated, but that's just me.

For Gridon I can understand the necessity of preserving the joke, at least.

ZenMasterBullshit posted:

It's not arbitrary as much as it's all juts played by ear because not every thing needs to be considered so closely when it comes to 'Do we translate it directly, localize it so the intent of the phrase or name is intact and as obvious in this language as it is in the original, or just leave it untranslated?' Turns out it's a topic requiring more nuance and deft handedness than just saying 'gently caress it leave all proper nouns the same.' Arbitrary means there's no real thought going behind it which is untrue of most translations.

Of course a good localization can actually improve a show. The Room Of Spirit and Time sounds magical, but in a really vague way that sounds like it could be a generic Zelda temple. The Hyperbolic Time Chamber sounds advanced and magical and explains exactly what the thing is and does right there in its name.

I guess what bothers me most is when it's something taken from or which draws from history or mythology. Like, I think 90 % of the people who are interested in tokusatsu and Japanese media in general are going to be aware of what "Sengoku Driver" is referencing. At that point it feels like you're doing it just cuz you can.

Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Sep 5, 2017

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



TFRazorsaw posted:

I guess what bothers me most is when it's something taken from or which draws from history or mythology. Like, I think 90 % of the people who are interested in tokusatsu and Japanese media in general are going to be aware of what "Sengoku Driver" is referencing. At that point it feels like you're doing it just cuz you can.

The problem is that you're wrong on what the name here is. You think the name is 戦国 (the actual Sengoku period) while the actual name is 戦極 (Warring EXTREME). Aesir's translation as W(omlaut)arring was done to preserve the (silly, but very Japanese) joke.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE


Fun Shoe

I'm about to retread ground I was done with three years ago but gently caress it, I'm in a nostalgic mood today.

No one translates names just to be stubborn. We translate them if we can make a strong case that the semantics of the name are very important to communicate at a direct level. "Ornac" absolutely sounded like an example of that, with its introduction highlighting and underlining how much of a doof Hassy was (by the way, I don't think anyone was complaining about "Hase-chan"). The Lock Seed's announcement of Ornac's name is, in fact, the audio clip of it saying "donguri" transposed. Hell, "Darkshadow" was on the table for Kurokage in an early draft but heavily litigated and discarded for various reasons, lest you think we do this just for giggles.

Likewise the name of the Sengoku Driver, out the gate, seemed like it wanted you to think of "Warring States" but spelled slightly funny. (The umlaut thing is a tangential story.) Part of the debate was whether "Sengoku" was sufficient or if anyone would even know it by "Sengoku Jidai" - and, indeed, if anyone would connect "Warring Driver" to "Warring States" if they did. It was a very long conversation that began before the show actually came out or anyone knew who was going to sub it. The fact that it was a man's name just reignited the debate and I don't think it ever properly ended, other than I think if we had done a batch it would probably have been retrofixed to be conservative.

"Space Time" is a perfect example of the hazards involved in subbing weekly, especially for a group with Aesir's culture at the time. Aesir's "Blast Off" sounds way better and was my personal pitch independent of the group. (Actually, I may have been responsible for it.) But Over-Time's was more resilient to the array of other things that kita by the time the show was done merchandising. I think it could have been done but it would have been much clumsier. In either case, TVN's strategy is utterly useless.

It's a constant balancing act between being communicative and being evocative while working within very annoying limits, and here, for an entire year of stress. Anyone who pulls it off has my respect - doubly so for pros who have to do it perfectly, faster, and with even more burden. TVN does not pull it off.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



I see. I'm not sure that does a good enough job of communicating the meaning, personally, because I never picked up on that. But I shouldn't make excuses for my own ignorance, so I'll acquiesce.

I don't think Gaim's subs were bad, for the record, it was just a personal disagreement on a decision. Guys like Magenta and OT and other groups aren't, like, Commie and whatnot. Ya guys good.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE


Fun Shoe

I didn't say we did it perfectly. Far from it. But we do try.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



That's all anyone should ask, in the end. I just hope I don't sound too unreasonable myself.

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

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TFRazorsaw posted:

That's all anyone should ask, in the end. I just hope I don't sound too unreasonable myself.

I mean it does seems a little unreasonable when you talk about specific names and meanings when you don't get the original joke or reference correct either like Blaze pointed out.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE


Fun Shoe

And for the record I'm on Team "Turtle Something Beam" because Dragonball is a funny comic and the whole concept of the Turtle Master is meant to be silly to begin with.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



I discuss this stuff to try and learn. This kind of stuff isn't exactly readily apparent across language barriers and decisions made multiple years ago, especially when wordplay is involved. It's not really that obvious on the surface.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE


Fun Shoe

This is another issue with TVN, by the way - that a lot of people will assume that because they're less "liberal" they must also be more accurate.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



yeah, I'm not really trying to defend TVN here. They're flat out bad.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


We're all in agreement though, King of Kai Fist just sounds lame?

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE


Fun Shoe

You're not translating it all the way! "Kai" means "world" and "King of the Universe Punch" just needs a little bit of work.

But then you get tangled in delivery, brevity, and lip flaps. Whoops.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



In general, as far as attack names go, I prefer the approach that if some attacks are in Japanese, and some are in english (example, "Kamehameha" and "Final Flash"), you keep the Japanese ones the same to preserve that kind of duality.

DBZ is a weird case though because there's decades of history at this point and Toei and Bandai seem to want to keep/push a lot of older names like "Special Beam Cannon" for marketing/familiarity reasons even as the dubs have gotten more accurate.

But yes. "King Kai Fist" sounds lame.

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


Burkion posted:

We're all in agreement though, King of Kai Fist just sounds lame?

But fans could shorten that to KOK-Fist and suddenly it's entertaining as all hell.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


Caphi posted:

You're not translating it all the way! "Kai" means "world" and "King of the Universe Punch" just needs a little bit of work.

But then you get tangled in delivery, brevity, and lip flaps. Whoops.

Context is also WEIRD with that name, because it's not an actual punch attack, it's a power up technique

If it was just King Of The Universe it'd be a pretty baller name

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Ziggy Hero!
Ziggy! Save! Everyone!


TFRazorsaw posted:

In general, as far as attack names go, I prefer the approach that if some attacks are in Japanese, and some are in english (example, "Kamehameha" and "Final Flash"), you keep the Japanese ones the same to preserve that kind of duality.

DBZ is a weird case though because there's decades of history at this point and Toei and Bandai seem to want to keep/push a lot of older names like "Special Beam Cannon" for marketing/familiarity reasons even as the dubs have gotten more accurate.

But yes. "King Kai Fist" sounds lame.

Kaioken sounds just as dumb because it's random noises to a non-Japanese speaker and in japanese it's literally just King Kai Fist.

All of Goku and Friends' attack names are loving dumb, that's what makes it funny and cool.

Burkion posted:

Context is also WEIRD with that name, because it's not an actual punch attack, it's a power up technique

If it was just King Of The Universe it'd be a pretty baller name

It's Fist meaning style/technique like Tekken or Fist of the North Star.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE


Fun Shoe

TFRazorsaw posted:

In general, as far as attack names go, I prefer the approach that if some attacks are in Japanese, and some are in english (example, "Kamehameha" and "Final Flash"), you keep the Japanese ones the same to preserve that kind of duality.

The problem is that there is no hard and fast rule for this. It's something the translator has to decide based on their understanding of intent and tone. Sometimes the distinction you said is important; sometimes it's simply less important than the semantics. Sometimes Excite has to look at "Crimson Burst Dragon Blade" (or w/e) or "Guren Bakuryuuken" and make a judgment call on which sounds tryhard in a more appropriate way. Yes, that is usually subjective and can even be wrong. That's why it's a job.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


Craptacular! posted:

But fans could shorten that to KOK-Fist and suddenly it's entertaining as all hell.

Ah, the Kei-oh-kei. English for: Kaioken.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Caphi posted:

The problem is that there is no hard and fast rule for this. It's something the translator has to decide based on their understanding of intent and tone. Sometimes the distinction you said is important; sometimes it's simply less important than the semantics. Sometimes Excite has to look at "Crimson Burst Dragon Blade" (or w/e) or "Guren Bakuryuuken" and make a judgment call on which sounds tryhard in a more appropriate way. Yes, that is usually subjective and can even be wrong. That's why it's a job.

Yeah, I know. I was just speaking towards a personal preference.

ZenMasterBullshit posted:

Kaioken sounds just as dumb because it's random noises to a non-Japanese speaker and in japanese it's literally just King Kai Fist.

would that not be how "Final Flash" sounds to a kid watching in Japan?

I mean, it's not just English in a lot of Japanese shows. Digimon is also for 10 year olds and it has creatures throwing around German and all sorts of other stuff Japanese kids wouldn't hear in the basic English classes they have in schools. Quite a few Precure attacks use French, so on and so forth.

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Ziggy Hero!
Ziggy! Save! Everyone!


TFRazorsaw posted:

would that not be how "Final Flash" sounds to a kid watching in Japan?

Yeah that's...exactly the point I was making.It all sounds dumb regardless, so why not make it a dumb sounding thing that at least makes sense to the viewers you're translating for.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


So that's getting into loanword territory there, TFR

Like, Japan has an interesting relationship with the rest of the world. They don't give a poo poo about your language they just care if it sounds cool. This isn't, obviously, about EVERYONE in Japan, but it is very, very true.

Battle Fever J is named such because, and this is not a joke, the word Fever was very popular at the time.

The fact that it KIND OF makes sense in English if you squint is utterly irrelevant to teh fact that it's nonsense in Japanese that they chose because it sounded cool. See also, JAKQ, Renger, and half a million other Sentai names. Dynaman is a great example because that is taking Dynamite and Man and merging it together despite the series having nothing to do with dynamite, just to get across the vague notion that they have explosive spirits

Japan just goes with whatever sounds good to Japanese people. Shocking, I know. They also have a lot of world play in their names and word choices when they aren't just trendy buzz words.

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

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I loved the tryhard Graphite attack translations, because I immediately recognized that it was getting more ridiculous and over the top each time. Same with "Dai dai dai dai henshin" into Super Ultra Mega Great Awesome Fantastic Incredible Amazing Ultimate Transformation With Extra Cheese.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Yeah, I know about that sort of stuff. A lot of this stuff takes from stuff floating around in popular culture. English productions do the same thing with foreign words and surface styling of things too.

I just thing that it's worthwhile preserving that in localization some of the time. Obviously they're doing for the sake of what they perceive as "style" or a specific kind of appeal, so why not keep that to a degree? If you can argue that adapting something for the sake of conveying that like the "dai dai dai dai henshin" thing above, the same can be true of the inverse. It's like Caphi said, you have to take it on a case by case basis.

Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Sep 5, 2017

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

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Okay, there's good title. Idk who changed it, but I love it

OZC
Jan 28, 2008


Since the Gaim subs came up and I recently finished that whole reworking, I definitely can appreciate the balance of how far to go with changing things during the translation. Even when I made some changes, it was a balancing act with stuff like Bandai's official translation being "Jimber" while the design is inspired by jinbaori attire, hence my going with Jinba. The original choice of Raiment itself makes perfect sense too. With that and the Ornac/Gridon, the biggest reason I opted to change those was hearing one thing and seeing another thing. Most of the other changes I made generally were just little visual things.

I knew going in that it was never going to be perfect or please everyone, and so that's why I left the originals untouched except for spelling/grammar and things like the Warring/Sengoku changes since those had, as far as I was aware, been stated that they'd be changed. Same with the deciphered Overlord stuff. That way, people still had what they were used to if they didn't like what I opted to alter. When it comes right down to it, I have the utmost respect for all the subbers involved with the subs I've used because I couldn't do what I've done with the BDs if it wasn't for them, and I'm no translator, so who am I to tell them what's right or wrong and what went too far or not far enough?

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE


Fun Shoe

I didn't think Jinba was contentious. I feel like I wanted something like "Warcoat" or "Mantle" but there was nothing really wrong with "Raiment."

There are certain categories of "but that's what I hear" where, I feel, the very fact that you're never going to overcome the audio anyway means your responsibility is to convert the sub into a channel to tell the viewer the meaning - a sort of TL note in disguise. (Ask me about kiraboshi.) Jingles are in this category, though part of me thinks most jingles are not worth subbing. If you get very lucky you might be able to write a translation that also comes close to scanning. (I believe some people have actually heard the Wizard Driver say a phantom "to" in "shabadoobie touch henshin" because of Over-Time's rendition.)

Much of Gaim's terminology falls into this category because it's so Japanese (literally Japanese history) that you're trapped between leaving it in Japanese and leaving viewers with no idea what anything is, or putting the Wikipedia entry for jin-baori into a TL note. "Raiment" is a bad compromise intended to pass along some amount of meaning as unobtrusively as we could figure.

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PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

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I admit, when it was just Jinba Lemon, I heard it as Jinba Raimont and thought it was just weird pronunciation. I didn't know or really care what it meant, just thought it was interesting.

I can't imagine translating Hanamichi On Stage or Dai Dai Dai Dai Dai Shogun was fun.

Edit: The Ex Aid jingle translations scanned very well, even if they weren't super accurate. I think that was kind of the perfect golden in-between. Quality worth walking that far off translation from.

Also in that wheelhouse: Almost all the puns in Kyoryuger.

PMush Perfect fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Sep 5, 2017

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