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So while everyone has already gone over all these points to varying degrees, the simplest way to put why I feel Zero-One has been a bad season is that "There's no stakes, no logic, and no character development for the most part". What's more important to point out that I think a few people don't understand is this: you can still like a bad season. Zero-One is bad, but I like Zero-One. It's enjoyable to watch it be bad.
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May 24, 2020 19:20
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:I said I thought the hiatus was probably exacerbating a lot of frustration with the show and you snapped accusing me of trying to dismiss criticism of it. Like I just wanna keep how this started within scope of this. If you don't want this to be personal, don't make it personal by signing all your posts with some poo poo about how you're the rational adult in the conversation about a toy cartoon. I've only been giving my thoughts about the show.
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May 24, 2020 19:23
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Caphi posted:If you don't want this to be personal, don't make it personal by signing all your posts with some poo poo about how you're the rational adult in the conversation about a toy cartoon. I've only been giving my thoughts about the show. I've got no problem with you calling me a weirdo. Caphi no seriously, I'm trying to be real with you about it, you responded hyper aggressively to a post saying something kind of banal about how the hiatus is affecting the show, a point other people made, a post that was largely agreeing with you. Maybe take 5 and come back to it. LastGoodBoy posted:So while everyone has already gone over all these points to varying degrees, the simplest way to put why I feel Zero-One has been a bad season is that "There's no stakes, no logic, and no character development for the most part". What's more important to point out that I think a few people don't understand is this: you can still like a bad season. Kiva is my favorite bad season. IXA is legit a fun suit and everyone that uses it is kinda cool and it's fun seeing 1980's Rider Struggles with MOnster Mashes.
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May 24, 2020 19:29
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:I've got no problem with you calling me a weirdo. Caphi no seriously, I'm trying to be real with you about it, you responded hyper aggressively to a post saying something kind of banal about how the hiatus is affecting the show, a point other people made, a post that was largely agreeing with you. Maybe take 5 and come back to it. I did that and now I'm back to ask you once again to kindly gently caress off with the "sigh, please stop being mad that I'm calling you mad" condescension. I simply said there are in fact legitimate opinions that 01 is bad that isn't just because we're all insane with cabin fever, and then gave my opinion of the show (bad).
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May 24, 2020 19:55
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quote:Zero-One complaints and arguments 
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May 24, 2020 20:00
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Caphi is exemplary of why I'm dismissive of most Zero-One posts. Blade Runner is too influential in our culture to be able to have computer people that do a thing, especially if they're just played by a person with some funny prop, without people demanding a whole bunch of "but maybe robot doesn't want to do thing?" plotting. (Modern?) Kamen Rider is not Doctor Who. It is not going to forcefully hammer a message of progress and dare you to change channels if you disagree. Humagears being able to change into weaponized murder machines without .net loving with them first renders much of the plot moot, anyway; because now the robots are pretty much long-fuse Amazons.
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May 24, 2020 20:07
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I'd buy that argument better if it was just an oversight the show was making, or as you say something I was bringing to the show ex nihilo, and not something it was going out of its way to interrogate? Like, Jin's entire motivation is about "what does robot want to do." Aruto has fought him over liberating robots, repeatedy. His entire catchphrase - multiple catchphrases at this point - is about robot dreams and making them come true. Naki's entire existence is about what they want to do. There was a major dramatic plot point about Is being forced to do something she didn't want to do. If 01 isn't about robot desires, what the hell is it? Caphi fucked around with this message at 20:19 on May 24, 2020 |
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May 24, 2020 20:14
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Toys.
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May 24, 2020 20:16
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Caphi posted:I'd buy that argument better if it was just an oversight the show was making and not something it was going out of its way to interrogate? Like, Jin's entire existence is about "what does robot want to do." Aruto has fought him over liberating robots, repeatedy. His entire catchphrase is about making robot dreams come true. Naki's entire existence is about what they want to do. The beef I have is that, demonstrably, robot desire is to continue doing free labor for humans  If it's supposed to be allegory for something, it's some kind of Shinzo Abe bullshit about how you should do the career your parents chose for you. If it's not allegory, then it's really boring writing where so far the only robots who have dissented from their programmed jobs are the literal terrorists?
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May 24, 2020 20:18
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deadly_pudding posted:The beef I have is that, demonstrably, robot desire is to continue doing free labor for humans I'm trying to think of an example where that isn't the case and the closest I can get is just the manga bot becoming an independent manga artist, which doesn't really feel like it should count.
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May 24, 2020 20:22
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Lovechan couldn't be a tennis coach so he decided to be, um, a tennis coach for other people.
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May 24, 2020 20:24
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Apparently there's a rumor going around the shows will be back in mid-June, though I'm not sure what's backing that. The source appears to be the Precure community finding new episodes of their show resuming in mid-June, but anime and live action are different so who knows
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May 24, 2020 20:25
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Craptacular! posted:(Modern?) Kamen Rider is not Doctor Who. It is not going to forcefully hammer a message of progress and dare you to change channels if you disagree. Build didn't pull its punches about nationalism and war profiteering. Kamen Rider has absolutely pushed political messages, it's the legacy of Ishinomori. Zero-One has dropped the ball horribly.
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May 24, 2020 20:29
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DoctorWhat posted:Build didn't pull its punches about nationalism and war profiteering. Kamen Rider has absolutely pushed political messages, it's the legacy of Ishinomori. Zero-One has dropped the ball horribly. Yeah "Kamen Rider doesn't do messages" is a really weird take when Kamen Rider Build had the hero crying on his knees begging for forgiveness for killing one of his opponents.
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May 24, 2020 20:35
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Gripweed posted:Yeah "Kamen Rider doesn't do messages" is a really weird take when Kamen Rider Build had the hero crying on his knees begging for forgiveness for killing one of his opponents. God loving drat episode 21 was so good.
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May 24, 2020 20:37
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Caphi posted:I simply said there are in fact legitimate opinions that 01 is bad that isn't just because we're all insane with cabin fever, and then gave my opinion of the show (bad). I don't think that, that's 5 million miles away from any point or post I made. You just completely misread what I posted. Like literally all I said was "I think the break is probably also exacerbating it somewhat since we stopped right after a really bad arc." If you read that as me calling you stir crazy and saying all the criticism of the show is cause by that you've completely whiffed on understanding and that's why I said your initial reply is incredibly and weirdly aggro.
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May 24, 2020 20:39
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DoctorWhat posted:Build didn't pull its punches about nationalism and war profiteering I love Build, but it completely pulled its punches the second it had the chance instead of committing. Let's not delude ourselves and pretend it didn't happen.
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May 24, 2020 20:41
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Trogglodyte posted:They literally copped out in the last third saying it was all the Pandora Box and Evolt's fault and that everyone just had turned evil and then got manipulated by the big bad space alien, and went out of their way to cop-out every single death (both meaningful and not) that happened. But that never undid the fact that all that war profiteering happened, as a matter of fact they address that with everyone who did feeling like monsters for doing so and doing their best to atone for it in spite of it being the influence of Pandora's Box. Them having Build reset the world so that none of it happened wasn't a cop-out either so much of Sento realizing that the problem had gotten so huge and out of hand that it was literally the only way to fix it. Now I WILL agree the movies definitely turned it into a cop-out by just immediately giving everyone their memories of the old world back.
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May 24, 2020 20:46
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There's no way to claim 01 doesn't have a message at all. If anything the problem is that the message is very blunt, but confused (or capitalistic... or both). More importantly than just disagreeing with the shows viewpoint, it's resorting to a lot of obvious bad writing tricks (retcons, moral gymnastics, lazy characterization and ungrounded emotional appeals) to support it that harm the story and characters structurally as well as "morally". That's what a lot of these issues revolve around. Build: Sento shed his very existence on the Cross-Z to forgive the sins of mankind.
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May 24, 2020 20:50
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LastGoodBoy posted:But that never undid the fact that all that war profiteering happened, as a matter of fact they address that with everyone who did feeling like monsters for doing so and doing their best to atone for it in spite of it being the influence of Pandora's Box. Them having Build reset the world so that none of it happened wasn't a cop-out either so much of Sento realizing that the problem had gotten so huge and out of hand that it was literally the only way to fix it. also: i thought build made it really clear that there was a hate plague going on as a result of everyone having been by pandora's box when it was opened. except Gentoku's dad who hadn't been there at the time, like really early on?
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May 24, 2020 20:53
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The box and its hate plague are a metaphor for propaganda and indoctrination obviously. And you're telling me that countless people ruining their own lives and country as part of the machinations of a dumb fickle higher power ain't a realistic depiction of war?
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May 24, 2020 20:55
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M.Matsuda posted:also: i thought build made it really clear that there was a hate plague going on as a result of everyone having been by pandora's box when it was opened. except Gentoku's dad who hadn't been there at the time, like really early on? They do establish that at some point, but I don't remember when. Somewhere in the middle I want to say.
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May 24, 2020 20:56
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LastGoodBoy posted:But that never undid the fact that all that war profiteering happened, as a matter of fact they address that with everyone who did feeling like monsters for doing so and doing their best to atone for it in spite of it being the influence of Pandora's Box. Them having Build reset the world so that none of it happened wasn't a cop-out either so much of Sento realizing that the problem had gotten so huge and out of hand that it was literally the only way to fix it. Initially, Gentoku was a Nobunaga-esque war-profiteering sleazebag psychopath manipulating a peaceful government's abundant resources to engage in freakish bioweapon experiments in an attempt to forcefully unite the nation under him. Then it's revealed "No, that was actually the box's fault for making him crazy, and Evolt just kept manipulating him! He did nothing wrong of his own volition! Some good ol' Nebula Gas and some free time will turn him into a good boy! Look, he likes parfaits and karaoke and wacky shirts!" And don't give the "They changed him because he scared his daughter!" answer - that comment about his daughter being scared was in the first third of the show, before he even became Rogue and turned up the edge another notch. Initially, Taizan was the one sane mind among the three countries' leaders while the other two were run by morally bankrupt separate parties who were looking for any excuse to invade. Then it's revealed no, they were just turned evil by the box's light because they were both conveniently right there in the event as random bystanders who were implied to have no real government influence and just conveniently became the Prime Ministers, and then got manipulated by Evolt again! Initially, Takumi Katsuragi was an outright evil mad scientist painted in mystery beyond the confirmation everything he himself made was outright loving Evil with a capital E, culminating in the Sclash Driver and Hazard Trigger which both drive you kill crazy. Then suddenly all three Sclash Driver users got over the crazy adrenaline part beyond (mainly Kazumin) screaming a lot, and it turns out the Hazard Trigger was actually designed by his dad and not him and it was specifically meant to be used to purge the panels or some poo poo. Oh and Katsuragi wasn't evil at all, he totally wanted Love and Peace too and was just being conveniently manipulated by Evolt into turning people into monsters. Initially, Evolt was an unnatural third party who clearly had his own interests, and at several points clearly was trying to use all the Riders as experiments towards him achieving his full power and accomplishing another unknown goal, and at several points even hesitates or motivates them to do better for the sake of continuing them. Nah he's just le wacky evil ciao man who wants to eat planets and turn them all into Smash. Initially, Nanba was a perfect choice of villain where he wasn't being manipulated by Evolt like the other villains, he was a well-funded and well-armed human business man with a loving cult and a private army, all developed without Nebula Gas or any of that, just pure hard sci-fi, to enable his greed. Then suddenly no, he was ALSO secretly being manipulated by Evolt and he was just a humble steel manufacturer turned evil somehow too! Initially, Sento was a conflicted man trying to get over the fact not only was he a loving mad scientist responsible for bioterrorism and the deaths of countless people in Faust experiments, but also became a killer after getting his hands on one of his old gadgets and was lamenting the fact that the Kamen Rider system is a weapon he's trying to use for good purposes. Then no, they're actually not weapons at all, they're an anti-Evolt system of Love and Peace that can cure anything and Sento can engage in an existential Ship of Theseus-esque nightmare scenario of slamming two worlds together to give people lives without Evolt and gets most of his friends killed in the process but it's okay because they come back untraumatized later (only to get their traumatizing memories back as well). I like Build. I love the characters, the aesthetic, the tone that's maintained throughout, some of the most gorgeous cinematography in Kamen Rider, the increased batshit escalation, everyone's impeccable acting chops, it is legitimately an amazing show. It also copped out the second it could because Toei writes checks they can't cash. Waffleman_ posted:The box and its hate plague are a metaphor for propaganda and indoctrination obviously. And you're telling me that countless people ruining their own lives and country as part of the machinations of a dumb fickle higher power ain't a realistic depiction of war? And that's not Ishinomori at-loving-all! Ishinomori wouldn't use dumb allegories for propaganda and indoctrination. He just had the villains use literal propaganda and indoctrination as they engaged in batshit, literally evil schemes with some sort of real life parallel! Shocker were fake-woke pseudo-progressives (At a time when that poo poo wasn't even a popular phenomenon like it is now) who disguised destroying and conquering the world as progress!  They were organizing a social credit system that Ishinomori came up with before China even considered doing it!  Ishinomori had Big Machine as a parallel to himself saying "You chose for this to happen with the politicians you've elected"  There was no evil magic box making people believe their lies, they were just loving guillible There was no magic box making people vote for the wrong politicians, they simply were manipulated into voting for them by propaganda proper! Ishinomori didn't use allegory, he flat out spoke it in honesty. The box isn't an allegory, it's a cop-out device. Trogglodyte fucked around with this message at 21:14 on May 24, 2020 |
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May 24, 2020 21:04
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Trogglodyte posted:Literally every excellently penned condemnation or unexpected reveal or unique characterization got copped out through some variant of "Evolt did it!" or "He was actually good all along, it's the Evil Box's fault!" That was literally the entire last third of the show, over and over. I completely disagree with the conclusions your drawing from all of this, but that's your opinion and I respect that.
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May 24, 2020 21:06
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Trogglodyte posted:Literally every excellently penned condemnation or unexpected reveal or unique characterization got copped out through some variant of "Evolt did it!" or "He was actually good all along, it's the Evil Box's fault!" That was literally the entire last third of the show, over and over. Hey, someone else came to the same conclusions I did with Build. Between that and the homophobic jokes+queerbaiting combo they threw in every once in a while, it's one of my least favorite seasons personally. (Also, the relentless jobbing and dumping on Ryuuga is... unpleasant?)
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May 24, 2020 21:10
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I guess if I had to make a choice it'd be Build, which had a good direction and then retconned it out for production reasons, over Gaim, which in retrospect was always going in that direction but it had enough momentum and moving parts that we could imagine cool directions it could have gone until the moment we no longer could. 01 has a direction it's going and it sucks but me pointing out obvious patterns and overarching principles has been called "fanfic" so I guess we'll all find out together.
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May 24, 2020 21:11
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:I don't think that, that's 5 million miles away from any point or post I made. You just completely misread what I posted. I disagree with the idea that displeasure with Zero-One has intensified over the hiatus. I think if it's done anything it's just solidified. People were calling out the exact same problems with the same intensity while it was airing. But we got a new episode every week so there was always a chance that in a week's time we'd get a better episode, or a cool fight, or an awesome new suit. So everybody kept their overall opinion at least somewhat flexible. But now the show has stopped, there's no new content on the horizon, Zero-One just is what it is. So the flexibility is gone and people are ready to just declare it bad. Which, imo, is perfectly valid considering the show's multiple systemic problems.
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May 24, 2020 21:12
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Gaim is one of those seasons I've tried a few times to get into but I'm so bored I just stop immediately.
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May 24, 2020 21:14
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Caphi posted:01 has a direction it's going and it sucks but me pointing out obvious patterns and overarching principles has been called "fanfic" so I guess we'll all find out together.
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May 24, 2020 21:14
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LastGoodBoy posted:Gaim is one of those seasons I've tried a few times to get into but I'm so bored I just stop immediately. I'll always treasure the experience of working on Gaim in real time, being in the threads and making actual friends over it, but I don't think it's worth binging without any of that. You really had to be there.
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May 24, 2020 21:16
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Caphi posted:I'll always treasure the experience of working on Gaim in real time, being in the threads and literally making friends over it, but I don't think it's worth binging without any of that. You really had to be there. I feel exactly the same way about Zero-One, so I know what you're talking about.
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May 24, 2020 21:17
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Caphi posted:I'll always treasure the experience of working on Gaim in real time, being in the threads and making actual friends over it, but I don't think it's worth binging without any of that. You really had to be there. Ah, the OOOs experience
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May 24, 2020 21:17
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May 24, 2020 21:18
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Gaim was one hell of a week-to-week experience. I think Amazons is the only other time I've seen a season just be constant batshit week to week and you're basically dragged from one crazy reveal to another constantly. Ex-Aid and Build got close at times (Especially the OP-less episodes of Ex-Aid), but Gaim was the cherry on top. Mainly because you never knew what to expect. Were you gonna see more people die or Kouta suffer or were you instead gonna see Ryoma shove his brain in a robot and Kaito playing soccer? It's just a newer, weirder surprise every time! And that is the only real, whole praise I can give Gaim.
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May 24, 2020 21:19
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I stand by King poo poo Grape Boy, though.
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May 24, 2020 21:20
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I'll actually... kinda stand up for Ghost? It's dumb as hell and goes nowhere, but it's a fun dumb for me. It's still a bad series, but the actors are fun and the fight scenes good, and I'm just spending too much of it laughing at the ridiculous ideas it went with. There's more unpleasant Rider to watch for me by far (back half of Hibiki after the writer change, for one.) Favorite season of ratio of "good stuff to sheer ridiculousness" is Agito, though, which is both largely good and completely ridiculous at the same time. EDIT: Trogglodyte posted:Were you gonna see more people die or Kouta suffer or were you instead gonna see Ryoma shove his brain in a robot and Kaito playing soccer? It's just a newer, weirder surprise every time! Even in a circle of friends who all dislike Gaim, we bring up Ryoma surgically removing his own brain and putting it into Hakaider constantly. It's the single best thing in the show.
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May 24, 2020 21:21
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Mr. Dangerous, Mr. Knuckle Man, and Slaughtermelon are the three I stand by. Everyone else was just kinda lacking somehow. Micchy had admittedly excellent suits though.
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May 24, 2020 21:22
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Decade guy would definitely be thrown out first.
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May 24, 2020 21:23
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Caphi posted:I stand by King poo poo Grape Boy, though. Micchy a poo poo and I wouldn't have it any other way The slo mo shot of him dancing surrounded by friends as he says "I'll betray anyone and everyone" is the best thing in Kamen Rider.
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May 24, 2020 21:26
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:The slo mo shot of him dancing surrounded by friends as he says "I'll betray anyone and everyone" is the best thing in Kamen Rider.
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May 24, 2020 21:36
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