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mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

ewe2 posted:

I think McNamara's story is very sad, he was a genuinely brilliant guy but had weird tunnel-vision about stats combined with an exceptionalist world-view. Just a tragic combination. But I'm more saddened by that same realisation that nothing got learnt except media management. The leadership learnt to blame the media instead, which is not an obvious conclusion from the documentary.
Yeah and it seems McNamara's at least learned his lesson from this, the Errol Morris doc Fog of War is a great as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8ZhIi57x-4 though I'd suggest you get the real deal.

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Solkanar512
Dec 28, 2006

by the sex ghost

mobby_6kl posted:

Yeah and it seems McNamara's at least learned his lesson from this, the Errol Morris doc Fog of War is a great as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8ZhIi57x-4 though I'd suggest you get the real deal.

Yeah, after watching this you really get the impression he has in some way quantified exactly how terribly he hosed up and it haunts him constantly.

ewe2
Jul 1, 2009

mobby_6kl posted:

Yeah and it seems McNamara's at least learned his lesson from this, the Errol Morris doc Fog of War is a great as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8ZhIi57x-4 though I'd suggest you get the real deal.

Yeah I've seen the whole thing. There are many conflicting viewpoints about it, some say he's learnt something, many say he's still in denial on important points. But just the fact that he opened up and tried to justify it makes him miles ahead of so many involved at that level. I give him points for trying to understand why he failed at least.

Dinosaurs!
May 22, 2003

ewe2 posted:

But I'm more saddened by that same realisation that nothing got learnt except media management. The leadership learnt to blame the media instead, which is not an obvious conclusion from the documentary.

I'm in the middle of the Tet Offensive and there's been a couple "the media was saying this when this was actually happening" moments and I haven't even gotten to Walter Cronkite's line yet. But I guess that's the Tet Offensive's "thing." I'm curious how it'll play out over the rest of the episodes.

I really like this so far and echo the sentiment that it's a depressing spiral of just about everyone in charge privately knowing better. And for as little as it's worth because we've learned nothing as a country, it was cathartic to hear the former CIA officer say the US should have viewed Vietnam as the end of colonialism in Southeast Asia, but our Cold War tunnel vision doomed us.

Can't wait to watch the same thing in 30 years but with HD video when we eulogize Iraq/Afghanistan.

algebra testes
Mar 5, 2011


Lipstick Apathy
Oh I just got to the point Nixon rigged peace talks so he could win the election.

:stare:

Also the story at the start of the episode is great to "Relax! They have enough rice to feed...twelve....men.... :stare:"

Nucleic Acids
Apr 10, 2007

algebra testes posted:

Oh I just got to the point Nixon rigged peace talks so he could win the election.

:stare:

Also the story at the start of the episode is great to "Relax! They have enough rice to feed...twelve....men.... :stare:"

So this is what the Nixon Foundation's been so pissed about.

And didn't Johnson have some evidence of this happening but he didn't release it?

ewe2
Jul 1, 2009

Nucleic Acids posted:

So this is what the Nixon Foundation's been so pissed about.

And didn't Johnson have some evidence of this happening but he didn't release it?

Yes, he knew Nixon was lying to him but had to protect the source. This information's been out for decades, its too late for revisionism. A lot of this stuff was in the Pentagon Papers and it's "interesting" how much of that information has just dropped out of contemporary awareness.

I would blow Dane Cook
Dec 26, 2008

Nucleic Acids posted:

Nixon Foundation

Hahahaha how is this a real thing?

ewe2
Jul 1, 2009

I would blow Dane Cook posted:

Hahahaha how is this a real thing?

This might surprise you but it's common practice for former US presidents to have charitable foundations and organizations dedicated to collecting and maintaining a library/history of them. I don't know when it started, a good American will know I'm sure.

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.
There still remains a very sizable contingent of people who insist that Nixon did nothing wrong. When he resigned his approval rating was still near 30%.

Solaris 2.0
May 14, 2008

I just saw the Jan-July 1968 episode and, Jesus Christ. I can only imagine what would have happened if we had social media and 24/7 news. It must have seemed like western democracy was in its death throes.

X-O
Apr 28, 2002

Long Live The King!

I haven't gotten to that one yet, but that's almost certainly the episode that would cover My Lai and.... yeah pretty much.

Hunterhr
Jan 4, 2007

And The Beast, Satan said unto the LORD, "You Fucking Suck" and juked him out of his goddamn shoes

Solaris 2.0 posted:

I just saw the Jan-July 1968 episode and, Jesus Christ. I can only imagine what would have happened if we had social media and 24/7 news. It must have seemed like western democracy was in its death throes.

Oh and btw another 27,000 Americans are going to die in Vietnam.

Like at that point you would think it would be endgame. Nope we're halfway there.

algebra testes
Mar 5, 2011


Lipstick Apathy

RocketSurgeon posted:

I really liked how the story of Mogie Crocker was layed out, how they slowly built it up over the course of the episode then the next episode *boom* he is dead. Instead of ending there his story just continues into how his sister was dealing with it all. It was really beautifully done.

This.

But this also with all the vets. As hosed up and sad as their war stories are the stories after the war as bad too.

Also it seems strange to say "Great use of Ohio over the credits", but drat that's a great way to end an episode.

algebra testes fucked around with this message at 08:04 on Sep 27, 2017

I would blow Dane Cook
Dec 26, 2008

algebra testes posted:

This.

But this also with all the vets. As hosed up and sad as their war stories are the stories after the war as bad too.

Also it seems strange to say "Great use of Ohio over the credits", but drat that's a great way to end an episode.

I was wondering when they were going to play that in the episode and then i was like woah.

Looten Plunder
Jul 11, 2006
Grimey Drawer
I'm just finishing up episode 1 and I already love it. It's really fascinating how every historical event seems to be the result of a previous one. The story of Vietnam which I always associate with the year 1969 starts getting told in 1914 with events on the other side of the world. It's crazy.

I've never quite understood why Vietnam vets were so hated by the people back home, getting spat on, pelted with fruit etc. Most of these poor bastards were conscripted and forced to go over there! I assume the doc will do a good job of explaining this, so I look forward to seeing it play out.

Does the series do away with the terrible canned scream in subsequent episodes?

tapine
Sep 3, 2017

by FactsAreUseless

Looten Plunder posted:

I've never quite understood why Vietnam vets were so hated by the people back home, getting spat on, pelted with fruit etc. Most of these poor bastards were conscripted and forced to go over there! I assume the doc will do a good job of explaining this, so I look forward to seeing it play out.
This is no excuse, as conscientious objection was possible. It's also way overblown as a story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_Hymn_of_Lt._Calley . Americans then were just as blindly jingoistic as they are today.

Mahoning
Feb 3, 2007
There is a soundtrack available that includes all of the amazing music featured in the doc.

A lot of the music featured is the music I grew up with since my dad was still listening to it in the 80's and 90's with the advent of CDs. It makes the doc even more special to me because it ties me, a 32 year old born well after the war was over, to that era. Knowing that this time of social and political upheaval was the era of my parents' coming of age. Hearing a song like "Turn Turn Turn" or "The Letter" during the doc absolutely brings me to tears.

a kitten
Aug 5, 2006

Yeah it's really interesting, I've heard all these songs before in both documentaries and films and stuff about the Vietnam War (or just on my own because I love music) but something about the way they're using them really hits me like a like a punch in the gut. I've listened to Bob Dylan's Hard Rain's Gonna Fall I don't know how many times, but I'm pretty sure it's never brought me to the verge of tears before.

a kitten fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Sep 27, 2017

Love Stole the Day
Nov 4, 2012
Please give me free quality professional advice so I can be a baby about it and insult you
I really wish I had discovered this thread last week because I binge watched all 10 episodes and had nowhere to post about it. Watching this was like watching that OJ Simpson thing on Netflix: there were so many details of the story I had absolutely no idea about.



I don't know how many of you have seen the final two episodes but god damnit was I mad.

Mahoning
Feb 3, 2007
Here is the track listing for The Vietnam War:

A Hard Rain’s A-Gonna Fall – Bob Dylan
Hello Vietnam – Johnnie Wright
It’s My Life – Animals
Eve of Destruction – Barry McGuire
Turn Turn Turn – Byrds
Masters of War – Staple Singers
Mustang Sally – Wilson Pickett
Smokestack Lightning – Howlin’ Wolf
Backlash Blues – Nina Simone
The Sounds of Silence – Simon & Garfunkel
One Too Many Mornings – Bob Dylan
Ain’t Too Proud to Beg – Temptations
Are You Experienced? – Jimi Hendrix Experience
I’m a Man – Spencer Davis Group
Green Onions – Booker T and the MG’s
Strange Brew – Cream
Waist Deep in the Big Muddy – Pete Seeger
A Whiter Shade of Pale – Procol Harum
The Lord Is In This Place – Fairport Convention
For What It’s Worth – Buffalo Springfield
Don’t Think Twice – Bob Dylan
Piece of My Heart – Big Brother
Magic Carpet Ride – Steppenwolf
The Letter – Box Tops
Bad Moon Rising – Creedence Clearwater Revival
Soul Sacrifice – Santana
Tell the Truth – Otis Redding
Okie From Muskogee – Merle Haggard
The Thrill Is Gone – B.B. King
Psychedelic Shack – Temptations
Ohio – Crosby Stills Nash & Young
Get Together – Youngbloods
Gimme Shelter – Rolling Stones
Tail Dragger – Link Wray
America the Beautiful – Ray Charles
What’s Going On – Marvin Gaye
Bridge Over Troubled Water – Simon & Garfunkel
Let It Be – Beatles

God drat is that good. Half of the songs aren't available through Apple Music if you play The Vietnam War soundtrack, but I just made a playlist and added them all individually.

The ones that particularly just rip my heart out are Turn Turn Turn, The Sound of Silence, A Whiter Shade of Pale, Ohio, Get Together, and of course Bridge Over Troubled Water and Let It Be.

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

algebra testes posted:

Also the story at the start of the episode is great to "Relax! They have enough rice to feed...twelve....men.... :stare:"

That dude was a hell of a story teller. I'm really glad they got vets from both sides for the interviews. Those stories about the construction workers and the nicknames they gave to stretches of the Ho Chi Minh trail because of all the bombings were loving brutal.

Solaris 2.0
May 14, 2008

ruddiger posted:

That dude was a hell of a story teller. I'm really glad they got vets from both sides for the interviews. Those stories about the construction workers and the nicknames they gave to stretches of the Ho Chi Minh trail because of all the bombings were loving brutal.

The interviews have been loving amazing and brutal. You can tell that for many of them, this is their first time talking openly about their war experiences in almost 50 years. Others, when their eyes turn to thousand yard stares and their voices harden when they begin to talk about the atrocities they either witnessed, or took part in, is heart wrenching.

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

this is me posting irl

tapine posted:

This is no excuse, as conscientious objection was possible. It's also way overblown as a story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_Hymn_of_Lt._Calley . Americans then were just as blindly jingoistic as they are today.

Under US law I don't think the government will accept "I think this war is wrongful and unjust" as a valid expression of conscientious objection; you basically have to demonstrate that you really are fundamentally a pacifist, to the point where you would be unable to bring yourself to participating in any war no matter what. There were plenty of people who tried to apply for C.O. status and were denied.


That reminds me of an old history teacher telling me years ago that back during Vietnam when he was teaching high school, he and many other teachers he knew deliberately engaged in grade inflation to try and make it more likely that their students would get in to college and not get drafted.


Solaris 2.0 posted:

I just saw the Jan-July 1968 episode and, Jesus Christ. I can only imagine what would have happened if we had social media and 24/7 news. It must have seemed like western democracy was in its death throes.

In 1970 the rioting in Washington D.C. got so severe that the Secret Service flew Nixon out to Camp David for a few days.

Mahoning
Feb 3, 2007
In the last episode, the reveal of some of these veterans joining the anti-war movement after how proudly and unashamedly they seemed to talk about joining the Army/Marines and their experiences over there was just shocking. Particularly Ehrhart's story about seeing the iconic Kent State photo in the newspaper and breaking down in tears as he sat on a curb and deciding right then and there that he was anti-war.

Mahoning fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Sep 27, 2017

RocketSurgeon
Mar 2, 2008
This evening I finished the watch and holy poo poo. To me going through the whole of the doc was something like rewatching Apocalypse Now while having a high fever a few years back. It just grinds you down.
For me the worst was episode 8. I΄m not sure what hit me hardest- My Lai, the trial that went nowhere or the US citizens reasoning for it all. I for sure need a few days to digest all of this.
Before this I did not have a full picture of the whole war and most of what I had learned was through pop culture and movies that sterilized the whole affair. I am glad I watched it even though I am not a particular fan of documentaries.

boner confessor
Apr 25, 2013

by R. Guyovich

Looten Plunder posted:

I've never quite understood why Vietnam vets were so hated by the people back home, getting spat on, pelted with fruit etc.

this is a popular myth, if any soldiers were spat upon by protesters it was a very rare event, but everyone knows a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who got spat on. protesters rarely held individual soldiers returning from vietnam responsible for the war versus the military and government, and many of these soldiers themselves went on to join the peace movement. protesters weren't stupid, they hated the war and not necessarily the people who fought in it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spitting_Image

after the war, when americans grappled with the idea of losing a war (puncturing the myth of the all powerful american military) as well as the fact that the vietnam war was founded on and perpetuated by lies (puncturing the myth of the benevolent, honest government) many americans found it comfortable to believe in a noble, underdog soldier who was attacked by uncaring and vicious forces. this is literally the plot of the movie rambo. combine that with the idea that the drat hippies ruined it for everyone and then you get the popular lie that the uncaring, vicious hippies attacked the underdog soldiers

basically the same problem we have today about fake news and clickbait, except if the fake news lives long enough it turns into a commonly held myth like "columbus discovered america" or "the american revolution was caused by the common american dealing with extreme taxation"

boner confessor fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Sep 27, 2017

ewe2
Jul 1, 2009

The episode where the veterans literally threw their medals at the Capitol and that amazing speech by Kerry, I just had a lump in my throat the whole time.

And I was reminded that the protest generation either didn't learn from their own experience to perpetuate more military dumbness or the MilInd complex has far too deep a hold on that society and warped any lessons into self-serving bullshit. The documentary doesn't outright say that, it's perhaps implicit but you can't help but wonder after seeing it that Americans have a kind of starship trooper relationship with their military to have kept repeating those mistakes.

Love Stole the Day
Nov 4, 2012
Please give me free quality professional advice so I can be a baby about it and insult you

ewe2 posted:

The episode where the veterans literally threw their medals at the Capitol and that amazing speech by Kerry, I just had a lump in my throat the whole time.

And I was reminded that the protest generation either didn't learn from their own experience to perpetuate more military dumbness or the MilInd complex has far too deep a hold on that society and warped any lessons into self-serving bullshit. The documentary doesn't outright say that, it's perhaps implicit but you can't help but wonder after seeing it that Americans have a kind of starship trooper relationship with their military to have kept repeating those mistakes.

That part of the documentary gave me a new perspective on the 2004 Presidential Election and that Swift Boats controversy. Don't taze me, bro!

soggybagel
Aug 6, 2006
The official account of NFL Tackle Phil Loadholt.

Let's talk Football.
The part in I think episode 8 where and I'm paraphrasing but a black soldier saying ""Of all things to have over here man, why a confederate flag? loving outlaw those goddamn flags. The loving confederacy is gone."

Also I've seen some complaints of the music being too on the nose etc. I think it just fits perfectly and while some songs have entered cliche realm, they work here and are just as haunting and effective.

End of episode 5 just before TET and Peter Coyotes narration cues up the fact that 20k have died and the military leadership of the USA thinks we need one big push. "But what they didn't know was the North Vietnamese were planning an offensive of their own." Cue: Paint It Black and credits. It's haunting.

No Luck Needed
Mar 18, 2015

Ravel Crew
I am surprised they didn't mention the Quaker that was protesting at the Pentagon that handed his baby to a stander-by and burnt himself alive

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Morrison

when that one Marine was talking about having to serve 13 months and that he only killed one person and paused, I was like wow only one person in 13 months that is surprising. And then he said after that he only killed gooks, I was like drat! It is sad how important institutional racism is to war. I learned in this doc that the term gook was first used by Marines in Nicaragua way back in 1912. The army would just otherize people to make it easier to kill them is just a sad state of affairs.

Mahoning
Feb 3, 2007
It's really easy to say "how come they didn't talk about this" but realistically, this documentary could be 50 hours and still not cover everything.

I read today that the original script only mentioned the Kent State shooting in passing as part of the violence ramping up stateside. Then Ken Burns was invited to speak at KSU and saw the memorial and the small exhibit about the victims and the event and was convinced it had to be a much larger part of the doc. Part of what convinced him was that haunting audio of the professor begging the students to disperse. That gave me chills.

I would blow Dane Cook
Dec 26, 2008

No Luck Needed posted:

I am surprised they didn't mention the Quaker that was protesting at the Pentagon that handed his baby to a stander-by and burnt himself alive

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Morrison

I think McNamara talked about that in the documentary they made about him (McNamara).

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
I am an "old" goon born in 1968 and grew up with other kids that had veteran dads as well as some that lost theirs. I still don't have the heart to ask my own pops (pathfinder 101st, 1966-67) on what he thinks of this so far but I'm sure he'll bring it up next time I visit. He's not in very good shape now at 73 (substance abuse/smoking) and has been surrounded by and gets all his "opinion" news from retired prison guards and freepers in the crappy California central valley town my folks ended up in. :smith:

When I was growing up he always had a full collection of Vietnam history books and was a huge fan of the Caputo/O'Brien books and similar as well as later with books like Sheehan's "Bright Shining Lie" so I know until a few years ago he would have liked the tone of this show but I honestly have no idea now. He went through a long time between the mid-70's when he tossed out his medals and boxed up the pictures to early 2000's where he went through the paperwork to get them back, pulled out the pictures and began to deal with his experiences. He did finally dump out a bunch of stuff to my mother and I after he hadn't slept for 2 days after open heart surgery back in 2009 and you can imagine it's some of the worst poo poo imaginable. On the other had, I think the 2000's wars really brought out the remaining Vietnam vets (they are dropping fast) and gave them guys they could talk to and could offer support to these poor young guys going through 5+ tours. The Vietnam vets definitely didn't talk much about what they went through with their WW2 veteran fathers for the most part.

I'm only through ep 6 but I am going to assume they are going to get through horrible wasteful poo poo like Operation Ripcord in 1970 pretty soon.

Keyser_Soze fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Sep 28, 2017

Madurai
Jun 26, 2012

I'm surprised they didn't mention Street Without Joy in the first couple of eps.

soggybagel
Aug 6, 2006
The official account of NFL Tackle Phil Loadholt.

Let's talk Football.
Yeah there's so much they could have had but obviously they had to make cuts somewhere. Ultimately it's just very sad.

tapine
Sep 3, 2017

by FactsAreUseless

Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

Under US law I don't think the government will accept "I think this war is wrongful and unjust" as a valid expression of conscientious objection; you basically have to demonstrate that you really are fundamentally a pacifist, to the point where you would be unable to bring yourself to participating in any war no matter what. There were plenty of people who tried to apply for C.O. status and were denied.
No excuse, everyone should have known this was a misguided war of aggression and done whatever they had to do in order to not fight in it. Those who didn't were cowards and deserved whatever they got. I say this as someone whose father and grandfather took part in the war

X-O
Apr 28, 2002

Long Live The King!

tapine posted:

No excuse, everyone should have known this was a misguided war of aggression and done whatever they had to do in order to not fight in it. Those who didn't were cowards and deserved whatever they got. I say this as someone whose father and grandfather took part in the war

Yeah, sorry it's not that simple kiddo.

Mahoning
Feb 3, 2007
Captain Hindsight to the rescue!

Anyways, I noticed something in the doc that kinda made me chuckle (to keep from being angry). The one black vet talked about the flying of the Confederate flag (which was oddly topical in our current state of affairs) by the troops in Vietnam. A completely different Vet talked about how he understood the protesters and why they were so angry but he was pissed that they were flying the NLF flag. :irony:

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Solaris 2.0
May 14, 2008

tapine posted:

No excuse, everyone should have known this was a misguided war of aggression and done whatever they had to do in order to not fight in it. Those who didn't were cowards and deserved whatever they got. I say this as someone whose father and grandfather took part in the war

Seek help or therapy.



Anyway what really struck me in the last episode i saw " The Veneer of Civilization" was how you had live TV coverage of police officers cracking people's skulls and then Ken Burns drops the line "56% of Americans approved of the police actions against the protestors." So it's interesting to see that things haven't, unfortunately, changed much in that regard.

Also lol Nixon rigging the peace talks to get elected, I had forgotten about that.

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