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boner confessor posted:after the war, when americans grappled with the idea of losing a war (puncturing the myth of the all powerful american military) as well as the fact that the vietnam war was founded on and perpetuated by lies (puncturing the myth of the benevolent, honest government) many americans found it comfortable to believe in a noble, underdog soldier who was attacked by uncaring and vicious forces. this is literally the plot of the movie rambo. combine that with the idea that the drat hippies ruined it for everyone and then you get the popular lie that the uncaring, vicious hippies attacked the underdog soldiers I never made the connection before, but your post flipped the lightbulb that this is the Vietnam version of the Lost Cause and that every nation must do this when reconciling being on the losing end of a war. ewe2 posted:And I was reminded that the protest generation either didn't learn from their own experience to perpetuate more military dumbness or the MilInd complex has far too deep a hold on that society and warped any lessons into self-serving bullshit. The documentary doesn't outright say that, it's perhaps implicit but you can't help but wonder after seeing it that Americans have a kind of starship trooper relationship with their military to have kept repeating those mistakes. No doubt a number of them became cranky middle aged people or 9/11 broke their brains, and that military contractors wield huge influence, but I think it's easy to forget there were still plenty of young people who supported the war. Bill O'Reilly certainly wasn't out there protesting.
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Sep 28, 2017 15:16
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Dinosaurs! posted:I never made the connection before, but your post flipped the lightbulb that this is the Vietnam version of the Lost Cause and that every nation must do this when reconciling being on the losing end of a war. 
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Sep 28, 2017 15:34
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Seek help or therapy.
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Sep 28, 2017 15:47
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Dude, relax. I don't think anyone here is saying the Vietnam War was a good thing. People were right to protest, but your indictment of the population benefits a little too much from 45 years of hindsight and declassified documents.
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Sep 28, 2017 16:18
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Dinosaurs! posted:Dude, relax. I don't think anyone here is saying the Vietnam War was a good thing. People were right to protest, but your indictment of the population benefits a little too much from 45 years of hindsight and declassified documents. It's not just that. Telling people who served in Vietnam that they "were cowards and deserved what they got" is a pretty lovely thing to say, especially in an era where there was a nationwide draft. That said, I'd rather not derail this thread further and focus on what is turning out to be the best documentary on American involvement in the Vietnam War.
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Sep 28, 2017 16:21
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Dinosaurs! posted:I never made the connection before, but your post flipped the lightbulb that this is the Vietnam version of the Lost Cause and that every nation must do this when reconciling being on the losing end of a war. or better yet the dolchstoss, ww1 era germans blamed the war's loss on german jews like vietnam era americans blamed the war's loss on hippies and leftists tapine posted:About the response I expected. No wonder we keep getting into wars like this, no one learns anything from them pretty sure yelling at people and reducing them to stereotypes so you can feel like a noble keyboard warrior does not measurably reduce wars, dude. you're not that important or persuasive, hate to break it to you
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Sep 28, 2017 20:24
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In one of the early episodes they show quick shots of Clinton and Bush who avoided direct combat. Then you think I'm the 9th episode of Kerry testifying and how much heat he got in 2004 over that poo poo. The irony was then as it is now how one saw combat, one didn't, and Jesus it pisses me off still.
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Sep 28, 2017 21:05
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soggybagel posted:In one of the early episodes they show quick shots of Clinton and Bush who avoided direct combat. Then you think I'm the 9th episode of Kerry testifying and how much heat he got in 2004 over that poo poo. The irony was then as it is now how one saw combat, one didn't, and Jesus it pisses me off still. "The Republican Party supports the troops!" / 
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Sep 28, 2017 21:17
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soggybagel posted:In one of the early episodes they show quick shots of Clinton and Bush who avoided direct combat. Then you think I'm the 9th episode of Kerry testifying and how much heat he got in 2004 over that poo poo. The irony was then as it is now how one saw combat, one didn't, and Jesus it pisses me off still. I thought I was losing my mind for a second there. ".... wait a minute, was that Clinton? Naw, I'm sure they would have captioned him or someth-- ok I'm almost positive that was Bush. Probably. "
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Sep 28, 2017 22:19
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Solaris 2.0 posted:It's not just that. Telling people who served in Vietnam that they "were cowards and deserved what they got" is a pretty lovely thing to say, especially in an era where there was a nationwide draft. That said, I'd rather not derail this thread further and focus on what is turning out to be the best documentary on American involvement in the Vietnam War. Since the war, Vietnam has had to staff entire hospitals that are full of mutated babies from agent orange, because agent orange will never leave that land's soil. The only American heroes in the Vietnam war were the ones no documentary will cover: the exponentially increasing number of people who fragged their officers. They rolled grenades into their tents, forced them to rotate bunk assignments and pull popular privates to sleep lower bunk, they conspired with the rest of their sorties to assassinate the bloodiest officers, and they filled the brigs so military justice couldn't be served. They took incredible risks to their bodies and to their freedom in order to destroy the American officer class. We cannot forget their courage and moral vision turning against the people who conspired to kill between 3 and 5 million humans.
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Sep 28, 2017 22:35
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Mofabio posted:Since the war, Vietnam has had to staff entire hospitals that are full of mutated babies from agent orange, because agent orange will never leave that land's soil. The only American heroes in the Vietnam war were the ones no documentary will cover: the exponentially increasing number of people who fragged their officers. They rolled grenades into their tents, forced them to rotate bunk assignments and pull popular privates to sleep lower bunk, they conspired with the rest of their sorties to assassinate the bloodiest officers, and they filled the brigs so military justice couldn't be served. They took incredible risks to their bodies and to their freedom in order to destroy the American officer class. We cannot forget their courage and moral vision turning against the people who conspired to kill between 3 and 5 million humans. Not to mention the unexploded ordinance. Always curious that peoples' rush to defend American soldiers' actions cast them in a pretty negative light, such as "how could they have known that they were taking part in a war of aggression"? A child could know it, you don't expect a grown man to?
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Sep 28, 2017 23:08
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The perversity of war crimes is the idea that a just morality can be found in it. We can condemn but also attempt to understand what conditions allow humanities worst behaviors to emerge.
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Sep 28, 2017 23:30
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soggybagel posted:The perversity of war crimes is the idea that a just morality can be found in it. We can condemn but also attempt to understand what conditions allow humanities worst behaviors to emerge. We should be very, very specific about which particular slice of humanity (the US officer class) ordered these atrocities. You're absolutely right. If we fail to learn how they were defeated from within by brave US soldiers and by the brilliant strategists in Vietnam who out-maneuvered them, then the US officer class will continue rampaging over the globe.
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Sep 28, 2017 23:39
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What is it about the Vietnam war that brings out some of the most obtuse opinions from people? You never hear this poo poo when a thread is talking about the 30 years war or WWII, which is interesting. Anyway, over two million Americans were deployed to Vietnam. Painting all of them in broad strokes, even the officers, as war criminals deserving of death is loving retarded. It is a disservice to the memory of the war, and it dilutes the actions of those who did willingly commit atrocities and were never convicted. The documentary brings up a great point. Does a bad man go to war and commit atrocities? Or does a good man go to war, and get turned into a bad man by the nature of the war he is in? The Vietnam war saw some of the most savage, vicious combat of the 21st century. It tore several countries apart (Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia), led to invasions by 3 major powers (China, France, US) and saw atrocities by all sides. To this day, the mere mention of the war stirs extremely strong emotions (as evidence of the last 3 posts). In Vietnam today all mention of the South is banned. In expat communities only the Flag of the Republic is allowed. What I find most fascinating about the documentary is Ken Burns approach to listen to all sides. In particular his interviews with the Veterans. Many of whom went to war, at least initially, with the best intentions or had the best hope for a good outcome before the reality of the conflict (free fire zones, burning of villages, massacres) sunk in. Personally I love Vietnam. I love it's people, it's history. I studied it in college, I went for two weeks to travel , and I am engaged to a Vietnamese woman. It is painful to watch this Documentary and see first hand not only how savage the war was and what the the US did to it, but also how much it tore the country apart politically and socially and those divisions still very much exists today. Solaris 2.0 fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Sep 29, 2017 |
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Sep 29, 2017 04:21
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Solaris 2.0 posted:What is it about the Vietnam war that brings out some of the most obtuse opinions from people? You never hear this poo poo when a thread is talking about the 30 years war or WWII, which is interesting. Oh my loving god.
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Sep 29, 2017 04:28
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tapine posted:Oh my loving god. Same, but for your posts.
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Sep 29, 2017 04:48
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a kitten posted:Same, but for your posts. This thread is clueless liberals.txt and it hurts to read and people so devoid of any kind of knowledge shouldn't presume to post their opinions anywhere. If you can type something like "Many of whom went to war, at least initially, with the best intentions or had the best hope for a good outcome before the reality of the conflict (free fire zones, burning of villages, massacres) sunk in" then you're too stupid to even have unsupervised use of a keyboard. And if you're that stupid you shouldn't be posting little pissy comebacks like you did. Read a book!
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Sep 29, 2017 04:58
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Millions of people died because of people like you. Maybe think about your role in the world for a second or two? This is after all a thread about a war documentary. Do you know what documentaries are or are supposed to be? Factual recounting of things. If a bunch of people died then maybe some introspection greater than "well there are opinions on both sides" and "maybe the people actually fighting the war were criminally stupid so we can't blame them ever" is on order? This is how atrocities happen, you children.
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Sep 29, 2017 05:02
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I'm a member of an imperialist nation who's never been in any kind of actual peril and here are my thoughts about what citizens of my nation voluntarily did decades ago to a people who never posed them any harm and who died en masse as a result and in fact are still dying today: well, what if like, satan was controlling the Vietnamese? You don't know and you can't know.
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Sep 29, 2017 05:06
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But you see they did it all with best intentions and isn't that what matters?
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Sep 29, 2017 05:17
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Why is anyone replying in earnest to this idiot tapine anymore?
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Sep 29, 2017 05:23
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I would blow Dane Cook posted:But you see they did it all with best intentions and isn't that what matters? Can you ascribe intent to something that has to be that blindly loving stupid? Anyone who enlists surely has to be beyond recognition as a thinking, feeling thing after around 1950.
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Sep 29, 2017 05:25
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X-O posted:Why is anyone replying in earnest to this idiot tapine anymore? Looks like a few people agree with me. But I see you're a mod here somewhere so I can see I'm speaking to a brick wall
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Sep 29, 2017 05:25
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Behold as my 2001 era kiddy comebacks undo your logic, guy who cares about morality. Hahaha, could god microwave a burrito so hot even he couldn't eat it? As you see your puny attempts at making people think are defeated. The Family Guy
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Sep 29, 2017 05:27
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soggybagel posted:In one of the early episodes they show quick shots of Clinton and Bush who avoided direct combat. Then you think I'm the 9th episode of Kerry testifying and how much heat he got in 2004 over that poo poo. The irony was then as it is now how one saw combat, one didn't, and Jesus it pisses me off still. Was posting a similar sentiment a few pages ago -- you're not the only one.
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Sep 29, 2017 05:43
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Do you really think it's plausible for everyone, even the lower class, to have fully understood the conflict in the context of French colonialism, US imperialism, the Cold War, the Civil Rights Movement, and whatever was going on in their own lives as it was happening? And that everyone who died had it coming - even if they were conscripted? Can you not see how that position comes across as incredibly naive and raging against the machine? Yeah a lot of people saw the war for the avoidable mess it was. But everyone?
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Sep 29, 2017 06:18
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Ooh, a Rage Against the Machine reference. Anything else we want to check off the list while we're at it?
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Sep 29, 2017 06:22
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A lot of people realized it was wrong to go overseas and murder a bunch of people who didn't pose us any threat! But the imbecile troglodyte motherfuckers who actually went and did it? We can't hold them to such high standards. They simply are too stupid to have lived.
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Sep 29, 2017 06:24
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Guys I barely even know that Vietnam exists. But the lying crooks who run our nation say I should go kill them? Should I maybe go and do some reading before nah gently caress it I want some money and to kill people, that justifies everything I've done according to some of the worst people who will ever have lived and bought a somethingawful account in 40 years.
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Sep 29, 2017 06:28
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Dinosaurs! posted:Do you really think it's plausible for everyone, even the lower class, to have fully understood the conflict in the context of French colonialism, US imperialism, the Cold War, the Civil Rights Movement, and whatever was going on in their own lives as it was happening? And that everyone who died had it coming - even if they were conscripted? Can you not see how that position comes across as incredibly naive and raging against the machine? Yeah a lot of people saw the war for the avoidable mess it was. But everyone? Why would anyone give a poo poo about how it "comes across"? It's an obvious truth. Anyone who is capable of navigating the complex minefield of moral hazard associated with being a mob hitman has all the necessary cognitive tools to recognize how categorically wrong it must be to willingly serve as a Troop in America's wars. If its bad optics or whatever to say so then the people watching are the problem.
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Sep 29, 2017 07:06
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Woozy posted:Why would anyone give a poo poo about how it "comes across"? It's an obvious truth. Anyone who is capable of navigating the complex minefield of moral hazard associated with being a mob hitman has all the necessary cognitive tools to recognize how categorically wrong it must be to willingly serve as a Troop in America's wars. If its bad optics or whatever to say so then the people watching are the problem. But what if that hitman needed the money for college? Then it's ok for them to do whatever they want. Yes, I'm a sociopath, why do you ask? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 29, 2017 07:20
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At the end of the day the Vietnam War was just another atrocity on the roadmap of atrocities that is human history, it wasn't the first and there's been another 50 Ken Burns Presents worth of them since all across the planet. I mean hell, the original war that morphed into what we know as the Vietnam War was started because of the poo poo the French were doing to the Vietnamese long before Americans even knew what communism was. That cycle will thankfully end one day, but only because we don't just gently caress people up but also the planet itself so it'll turn into a Venusian hell that snuffs us all out.
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Sep 29, 2017 07:43
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tapine posted:This thread is clueless liberals.txt and it hurts to read and people so devoid of any kind of knowledge shouldn't presume to post their opinions anywhere. If you can type something like "Many of whom went to war, at least initially, with the best intentions or had the best hope for a good outcome before the reality of the conflict (free fire zones, burning of villages, massacres) sunk in" then you're too stupid to even have unsupervised use of a keyboard. And if you're that stupid you shouldn't be posting little pissy comebacks like you did. Read a book! Calm down bro. They're just excusing the death of a few million people in asia. Looks like you've got some growing up to do.
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Sep 29, 2017 09:27
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This was an excellent series. I think there were only a few missteps (dancing over Woodstock, Nixon's relation-building with China/USSR, Agnew's resignation), but it was tremendous overall. The amazing thing, to me, is how much I learned. I was shocked at how much about the war and this era I simply didn't know. It was odd to watch this with my dad, who was in the Marines during this time, and discussing the war - I had to debunk the Jane Fonda message-passing myth. He had complained about the M-16 for years, though, and this documentary backed up that claim.
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Sep 29, 2017 11:06
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Mercrom posted:Calm down bro. They're just excusing the death of a few million people in asia. Looks like you've got some growing up to do. Or maybe they're just asking for even a tiny loving iota of nuance or critical thinking
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Sep 29, 2017 12:13
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SlipkPIe posted:Or maybe they're just asking for even a tiny loving iota of nuance or critical thinking I thought your point was that you couldn't expect that from human beings.
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Sep 29, 2017 12:29
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I want to remind everyone that this thread is about the DOCUMENTARY KEN BURNS - THE VIETNAM WAR. I know it's extremely popular, especially among internet leftists to uncritically launch into "US are all war criminals and deserved to die  " tirades but that is not what this thread is about. I was hoping for a discussion about Ken Burns and his documentaries and how he is presenting the Vietnam war. You got beef for how the war was fought, or want to remind everyone how evil the western nations were in this conflict? Please feel free to go make a D&D thread about it. Red posted:This was an excellent series. I think there were only a few missteps (dancing over Woodstock, Nixon's relation-building with China/USSR, Agnew's resignation), but it was tremendous overall. I have to agree. While this documentary goes over a lot of what I really knew, there is a shocking amount I didn't know. For example, I had never fully appreciated how large the Tet offensive was. 80,000 VC/NVA taking part in simultaneous attacks, and they did that several times (February, May, ect)! ? I know they suffered a heavy defeat, but that level of coordination and determination you cannot defeat. Solaris 2.0 fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Sep 29, 2017 |
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Sep 29, 2017 12:54
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I was shocked that Jane Fonda went as far as she did, I only thought she had controversial views, not actually going over there and doing propaganda. I thought it was admirable control on behalf of that Vet to put how he felt about that in terms that weren't immediately 'what a traitor, string her up'. edit: And a point relating to that: the documentary didn't go into great depth about it which I'm sure some will complain about but just to do a documentary of any depth about that war is an impossible task and to get as far as they did with it was a great achievement. ewe2 fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Sep 29, 2017 |
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Sep 29, 2017 13:09
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I'm sorry I didnt mean to be uncritical. The documentary is pretty good. The problems I have with it are just the same directorial problems I have with most documentaries. The subject matter is interesting but I guess that's off-topic.
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Sep 29, 2017 13:15
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Mercrom posted:I'm sorry I didnt mean to be uncritical. I'll reply to this. I have no issue with an intelligent discussion of the subject matter as it relates to the Documentary but, seeing as how it stirs up such raw emotions, it leads to posters having meltdowns and getting into slap fights (myself included) which then distracts from the primary purpose of this thread. Which is to discuss the documentary. Don't post such impressive hot takes as Calm down bro. They're just excusing the death of a few million people in asia. Looks like you've got some growing up to do. without you, know, any sort of context. Leave that poo poo in D&D.
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Sep 29, 2017 13:28
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