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 Ken Burns The Vietnam War First episode airs Sunday 9/17 at 8/7 on PBS Ken Burns – The Vietnam War is, as the name says, Ken Burn’s new documentary about the Vietnam war. Ken Burns himself really needs no introduction at this point. He has either directed or produced some of the greatest American documentaries of our time. With series such as “The Civil War”, “Baseball”, “Jazz”, “The War” and many others. “The Vietnam War’ has been in production in various forms since at least 2006, and reunites Burns with Lynn Novick, who worked with Ken Burns on “The War” and “Prohibition”. The sound track will be composed by Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross, and I am very excited to see what they do (they won best original score for their work in The Social Network). I am sorry for the relatively brief OP, as I am at work, but I wanted to let everyone know this was airing and I have been waiting for this documentary for years. It is already getting stellar reviews, and The Washington Post as an excellent article on it: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/opinions/2017/09/14/ken-burns-the-vietnam-war-pbs-documentary-tries-to-unite-america-under-trump/
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Sep 14, 2017 16:20
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zoux posted:I'm glad that per the article they'll also be focusing on the North Vietnamese. Mostly in media we see them as black pajama, cone hat wearing, sneaky bad guys instead of actual people fighting a war for their own reasons, it's a real blind spot in American culture. Also we don't do well when it comes to humanizing enemies that we fight in Asia, the dehumanizing narratives (they don't value life like we do, they don't have the same respect for humanity we do) that we applied to the Japanese in WWII were applied just as badly to the Vietnamese. So I'm very interested to hear from former NVA and VC about the war from their perspective, and hopefully it'll help people understand them better. I'd like to see a lot of the Vietnamese side as a a whole, including interviews with former VC, NVA, and ARVN . We tend to forget that the Vietnam war was also a civil war among Vietnamese, and it still splits the community something fierce today. That said since this is a Ken Burns doc I'm positive he will dedicate time to all sides, in the preview we already see interviews with former NVA soldiers.
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Sep 14, 2017 20:13
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Reviews are coming in and, as expected, they are very good. Many note how this is one of Ken Burn's more depressing films, which is understandable considering the content. Here is a quote from the NYT review: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/14/arts/television/review-ken-burns-the-vietnam-war-pbs.html?mcubz=3 quote:But it is probably Mr. Burns’s saddest film. “The Civil War” was mournful, but at least the Union was preserved. “The War” ended with fascism defeated. The war in Vietnam offers no uplift or happy ending. It’s simply decades of bad decision after bad decision, a wasteful vortex that devoured lives for nothing. It was, the narrator Peter Coyote says, “begun in good faith by decent people out of fateful misunderstandings, American overconfidence and Cold War miscalculations.” I'll probably need to watch a comedy on Netflix after each episode to lift my spirits before bed.
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Sep 17, 2017 19:01
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PowerBuilder3 posted:Why is it jumping back and forth in time? At least they show the year when they do. It's definitely a bit jarring. I figured that it was done to provide a connection to the American audience while talking about the French war in the first episode. However they did the same technique in the second episode as well. I'm curious if it will change once we get into the later episodes.
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Sep 19, 2017 16:34
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The Muppets On PCP posted:yeah it's burns' usual uncritical revisionism What are you talking about? At no point does the Documentary, at least in the first three episodes state that the war against the French was anything more than an anti-colonial struggle, or that the South Vietnamese government was anything other than horribly corrupt and authoritarian. I don't get how people can say it is "sanitized" it is very, very critical of the U.S. involvement. The scenes showing U.S. troops burning down that village remain as heart wrenching today as they did 50 years ago. If anything, the Documentary (so far) goes light on the Northern government. Barely mentioning the thousands that were executed during land reforms. However I can over look this in the context that Ken Burns's focus is on the American involvement in Vietnam, and for that you have to focus on the South. One thing I found interesting was the number of former Vietminh he interviewed, that ended up fighting for the south. I had always assumed the Viet-Minh were solidly communists but it really was a big tent organization against the French.
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Sep 20, 2017 13:36
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I re-watched that scene where they showed archival footage of John Mccain, clearly in immense pain right after capture, as he tearfully says "Tell my wife I love her" in what amounts to a good bye. 
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Sep 25, 2017 16:29
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I just saw the Jan-July 1968 episode and, Jesus Christ. I can only imagine what would have happened if we had social media and 24/7 news. It must have seemed like western democracy was in its death throes.
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Sep 27, 2017 03:27
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ruddiger posted:That dude was a hell of a story teller. I'm really glad they got vets from both sides for the interviews. Those stories about the construction workers and the nicknames they gave to stretches of the Ho Chi Minh trail because of all the bombings were loving brutal. The interviews have been loving amazing and brutal. You can tell that for many of them, this is their first time talking openly about their war experiences in almost 50 years. Others, when their eyes turn to thousand yard stares and their voices harden when they begin to talk about the atrocities they either witnessed, or took part in, is heart wrenching.
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Sep 27, 2017 18:50
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tapine posted:No excuse, everyone should have known this was a misguided war of aggression and done whatever they had to do in order to not fight in it. Those who didn't were cowards and deserved whatever they got. I say this as someone whose father and grandfather took part in the war Seek help or therapy. Anyway what really struck me in the last episode i saw " The Veneer of Civilization" was how you had live TV coverage of police officers cracking people's skulls and then Ken Burns drops the line "56% of Americans approved of the police actions against the protestors." So it's interesting to see that things haven't, unfortunately, changed much in that regard. Also lol Nixon rigging the peace talks to get elected, I had forgotten about that.
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Sep 28, 2017 14:44
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Dinosaurs! posted:Dude, relax. I don't think anyone here is saying the Vietnam War was a good thing. People were right to protest, but your indictment of the population benefits a little too much from 45 years of hindsight and declassified documents. It's not just that. Telling people who served in Vietnam that they "were cowards and deserved what they got" is a pretty lovely thing to say, especially in an era where there was a nationwide draft. That said, I'd rather not derail this thread further and focus on what is turning out to be the best documentary on American involvement in the Vietnam War.
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Sep 28, 2017 16:21
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What is it about the Vietnam war that brings out some of the most obtuse opinions from people? You never hear this poo poo when a thread is talking about the 30 years war or WWII, which is interesting. Anyway, over two million Americans were deployed to Vietnam. Painting all of them in broad strokes, even the officers, as war criminals deserving of death is loving retarded. It is a disservice to the memory of the war, and it dilutes the actions of those who did willingly commit atrocities and were never convicted. The documentary brings up a great point. Does a bad man go to war and commit atrocities? Or does a good man go to war, and get turned into a bad man by the nature of the war he is in? The Vietnam war saw some of the most savage, vicious combat of the 21st century. It tore several countries apart (Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia), led to invasions by 3 major powers (China, France, US) and saw atrocities by all sides. To this day, the mere mention of the war stirs extremely strong emotions (as evidence of the last 3 posts). In Vietnam today all mention of the South is banned. In expat communities only the Flag of the Republic is allowed. What I find most fascinating about the documentary is Ken Burns approach to listen to all sides. In particular his interviews with the Veterans. Many of whom went to war, at least initially, with the best intentions or had the best hope for a good outcome before the reality of the conflict (free fire zones, burning of villages, massacres) sunk in. Personally I love Vietnam. I love it's people, it's history. I studied it in college, I went for two weeks to travel , and I am engaged to a Vietnamese woman. It is painful to watch this Documentary and see first hand not only how savage the war was and what the the US did to it, but also how much it tore the country apart politically and socially and those divisions still very much exists today. Solaris 2.0 fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Sep 29, 2017 |
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Sep 29, 2017 04:21
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I want to remind everyone that this thread is about the DOCUMENTARY KEN BURNS - THE VIETNAM WAR. I know it's extremely popular, especially among internet leftists to uncritically launch into "US are all war criminals and deserved to die  " tirades but that is not what this thread is about. I was hoping for a discussion about Ken Burns and his documentaries and how he is presenting the Vietnam war. You got beef for how the war was fought, or want to remind everyone how evil the western nations were in this conflict? Please feel free to go make a D&D thread about it. Red posted:This was an excellent series. I think there were only a few missteps (dancing over Woodstock, Nixon's relation-building with China/USSR, Agnew's resignation), but it was tremendous overall. I have to agree. While this documentary goes over a lot of what I really knew, there is a shocking amount I didn't know. For example, I had never fully appreciated how large the Tet offensive was. 80,000 VC/NVA taking part in simultaneous attacks, and they did that several times (February, May, ect)! ? I know they suffered a heavy defeat, but that level of coordination and determination you cannot defeat. Solaris 2.0 fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Sep 29, 2017 |
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Sep 29, 2017 12:54
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Mercrom posted:I'm sorry I didnt mean to be uncritical. I'll reply to this. I have no issue with an intelligent discussion of the subject matter as it relates to the Documentary but, seeing as how it stirs up such raw emotions, it leads to posters having meltdowns and getting into slap fights (myself included) which then distracts from the primary purpose of this thread. Which is to discuss the documentary. Don't post such impressive hot takes as Calm down bro. They're just excusing the death of a few million people in asia. Looks like you've got some growing up to do. without you, know, any sort of context. Leave that poo poo in D&D.
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Sep 29, 2017 13:28
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Enderzero posted:Ok, here's a discussion. The aw shucks, good people with good intentions narrative is a subset of the Great Statesman narrative that allows these venal shitheads to flourish even now. We have been inculcated to accept strong men making tough choices as an excuse for imperialism nonstop in this country instead of seeing them for the selfish, provincial authoritarians they are. Henry Kissinger met with Hillary during the campaign last year and no one batted an eye! That's how complete a rehab these people go through just by virtue of being former Statesman. And I think Burns (though there's plenty of good material in there as well) advancing the "they didn't know better" argument is just another coat of paint in whitewashing American leaders and their actions. He's following in a long tradition that still has effects even today. I agree I cringed at the line when Ken Burns said American leaders went into Vietnam with the best of intentions. Since it clearly appears they didn't really care much about the well being of the country so much as using it as a chess piece on the great cold war chessboard. There was even an American diplomat who was quoted saying as much. That said, some of these people are extremely complicated figures. LBJ in particular. Here is a man that on one hand signed civil rights legislation, and promoted an expansion of the well-fare state in the Great Society, yet abroad was directing a war that would end up killing millions of people. You can see how this morally devastated people like McNamara at the end. Then you have Nixon who merely used the war to further his own political ambitions.. Solaris 2.0 fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Sep 29, 2017 |
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Sep 29, 2017 14:50
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Shima Honnou posted:Don't forget about the stuff that both the North and South did. They literally had an NVA guy describe carving a dude up with a machete in a rice paddy and then threatening anyone who attended the funeral in the first episode, and most of episode two was about the South's leadership basically destroying their own people including forcing farmers to build their own little prisons and perpetrating what was essentially a speed-pogrom against anyone who was undesireable as soon as they had eyes off of them, and the US having to accidentally back a coup that ended in the nation's lovely leaders getting their brains splattered on the floor of an APC after being tricked into thinking they were being taken to safety. We often forget that the Vietnam war was very much a civil war as well, and like all civil wars was absolutely brutal.
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Sep 30, 2017 01:58
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Timby posted:I took an America Since 1945 class in my senior year of high school, and one line I'll never forget--I forget the source, but it was some old documentary or video, I took the class in 2001 - 02--was the way Mr. Nagis repeated, "And then there was Tet. Tet was like the roof falling in." It makes me think what a Vietnam-size war would look like with today's media environment. I'm mostly talking out of my rear end, but even at their height ISIS could field what, 5,000 fighters at most? And I think the vast majority of firefights that US forces engage the Taliban in consists of only a couple dozen fighters.
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Sep 30, 2017 21:01
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Shima Honnou posted:Every episode starts with the words "Major support by" and then it just lists war criminals. Besides the Koch brothers..(and that is dubious. lovely as they are I don't know if they have ever pushed for war funding) who are you talking about? People in this thread need to knock off this poo poo. If you have a hot take or point, fine, but make an effort post justifying your position. Also tapine. Knock it off dude. Either argue in good faith or piss off. No one in this thread has ever defended the actions of the US and putting words in people's mouths is a total Trump move. Getting back to the ACTUAL documentary I still haven't finished it, but hope to this week. I'm really curious how Ken Burns handles the Paris Peace Accords and the subsequent spring 1975 offensive. And of course water gate and how it sealed the fate of the South. Solaris 2.0 fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Oct 2, 2017 |
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Oct 2, 2017 00:12
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I'm going to try to save this thread (but that is feeling like a lost cause). I hope to finish the last two episodes tonight, and I've been wondering where on the Ken Burns Pantheon people would rank this Documentary? I personally think this is one of his finest, though not above "The Civil War" but there are many Ken Burns Docs I haven't seen yet.
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Oct 2, 2017 21:47
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Harton posted:Finished this up over the weekend. Even the wife was glued to the tv and she hates poo poo like this. We were both tearing up when the vets were taking about the Vietnam memorial. This might be my favorite Ken Burns documentary, but that might just be because it was the most recent one I watched. Dude is a national treasure. I teared up at the end with the scenes of American veterans back in Vietnam, talking with their former Vietnamese adversaries and both sides seeking some sort of peace. Also the scenes of Vietnamese daily life at the end to the tune of "Let it Be" really got to me. Hell of an ending.
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Oct 4, 2017 04:40
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