Ken Burns - The Vietnam War - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Ken Burns - The Vietnam War

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Looten Plunder posted:

I've never quite understood why Vietnam vets were so hated by the people back home, getting spat on, pelted with fruit etc. Most of these poor bastards were conscripted and forced to go over there! I assume the doc will do a good job of explaining this, so I look forward to seeing it play out.

This is no excuse, as conscientious objection was possible. It's also way overblown as a story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_Hymn_of_Lt._Calley . Americans then were just as blindly jingoistic as they are today.

# ¿ Sep 27, 2017 15:03

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 08:04

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

Under US law I don't think the government will accept "I think this war is wrongful and unjust" as a valid expression of conscientious objection; you basically have to demonstrate that you really are fundamentally a pacifist, to the point where you would be unable to bring yourself to participating in any war no matter what. There were plenty of people who tried to apply for C.O. status and were denied.

No excuse, everyone should have known this was a misguided war of aggression and done whatever they had to do in order to not fight in it. Those who didn't were cowards and deserved whatever they got. I say this as someone whose father and grandfather took part in the war

# ¿ Sep 28, 2017 06:17

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Solaris 2.0 posted:

Seek help or therapy.

About the response I expected. No wonder we keep getting into wars like this, no one learns anything from them

# ¿ Sep 28, 2017 15:47

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Mofabio posted:

Since the war, Vietnam has had to staff entire hospitals that are full of mutated babies from agent orange, because agent orange will never leave that land's soil. The only American heroes in the Vietnam war were the ones no documentary will cover: the exponentially increasing number of people who fragged their officers. They rolled grenades into their tents, forced them to rotate bunk assignments and pull popular privates to sleep lower bunk, they conspired with the rest of their sorties to assassinate the bloodiest officers, and they filled the brigs so military justice couldn't be served. They took incredible risks to their bodies and to their freedom in order to destroy the American officer class. We cannot forget their courage and moral vision turning against the people who conspired to kill between 3 and 5 million humans.

Not to mention the unexploded ordinance.

Always curious that peoples' rush to defend American soldiers' actions cast them in a pretty negative light, such as "how could they have known that they were taking part in a war of aggression"? A child could know it, you don't expect a grown man to?

# ¿ Sep 28, 2017 23:08

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Solaris 2.0 posted:

What is it about the Vietnam war that brings out some of the most obtuse opinions from people? You never hear this poo poo when a thread is talking about the 30 years war or WWII, which is interesting.

Anyway, over two million Americans were deployed to Vietnam. Painting all of them in broad strokes, even the officers, as war criminals deserving of death is loving retarded. It is a disservice to the memory of the war, and it dilutes the actions of those who did willingly commit atrocities and were never convicted.

The documentary brings up a great point. Does a bad man go to war and commit atrocities? Or does a good man go to war, and get turned into a bad man by the nature of the war he is in?

The Vietnam war saw some of the most savage, vicious combat of the 21st century. It tore several countries apart (Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia), led to invasions by 3 major powers (China, France, US) and saw atrocities by all sides. To this day, the mere mention of the war stirs extremely strong emotions (as evidence of the last 3 posts). In Vietnam today all mention of the South is banned. In expat communities only the Flag of the Republic is allowed.

What I find most fascinating about the documentary is Ken Burns approach to listen to all sides. In particular his interviews with the Veterans. Many of whom went to war, at least initially, with the best intentions or had the best hope for a good outcome before the reality of the conflict (free fire zones, burning of villages, massacres) sunk in.

Personally I love Vietnam. I love it's people, it's history. I studied it in college, I went for two weeks to travel , and I am engaged to a Vietnamese woman. It is painful to watch this Documentary and see first hand not only how savage the war was and what the the US did to it, but also how much it tore the country apart politically and socially and those divisions still very much exists today.

Oh my loving god.

# ¿ Sep 29, 2017 04:28

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

a kitten posted:

Same, but for your posts.

This thread is clueless liberals.txt and it hurts to read and people so devoid of any kind of knowledge shouldn't presume to post their opinions anywhere. If you can type something like "Many of whom went to war, at least initially, with the best intentions or had the best hope for a good outcome before the reality of the conflict (free fire zones, burning of villages, massacres) sunk in" then you're too stupid to even have unsupervised use of a keyboard. And if you're that stupid you shouldn't be posting little pissy comebacks like you did. Read a book!

# ¿ Sep 29, 2017 04:58

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Millions of people died because of people like you. Maybe think about your role in the world for a second or two? This is after all a thread about a war documentary. Do you know what documentaries are or are supposed to be? Factual recounting of things. If a bunch of people died then maybe some introspection greater than "well there are opinions on both sides" and "maybe the people actually fighting the war were criminally stupid so we can't blame them ever" is on order? This is how atrocities happen, you children.

# ¿ Sep 29, 2017 05:02

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

I'm a member of an imperialist nation who's never been in any kind of actual peril and here are my thoughts about what citizens of my nation voluntarily did decades ago to a people who never posed them any harm and who died en masse as a result and in fact are still dying today: well, what if like, satan was controlling the Vietnamese? You don't know and you can't know.

# ¿ Sep 29, 2017 05:06

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

I would blow Dane Cook posted:

But you see they did it all with best intentions and isn't that what matters?

Can you ascribe intent to something that has to be that blindly loving stupid? Anyone who enlists surely has to be beyond recognition as a thinking, feeling thing after around 1950.

# ¿ Sep 29, 2017 05:25

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

X-O posted:

Why is anyone replying in earnest to this idiot tapine anymore?

Looks like a few people agree with me. But I see you're a mod here somewhere so I can see I'm speaking to a brick wall

# ¿ Sep 29, 2017 05:25

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Behold as my 2001 era kiddy comebacks undo your logic, guy who cares about morality. Hahaha, could god microwave a burrito so hot even he couldn't eat it? As you see your puny attempts at making people think are defeated. The Family Guy

# ¿ Sep 29, 2017 05:27

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Ooh, a Rage Against the Machine reference. Anything else we want to check off the list while we're at it?

# ¿ Sep 29, 2017 06:22

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

A lot of people realized it was wrong to go overseas and murder a bunch of people who didn't pose us any threat! But the imbecile troglodyte motherfuckers who actually went and did it? We can't hold them to such high standards. They simply are too stupid to have lived.

# ¿ Sep 29, 2017 06:24

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Guys I barely even know that Vietnam exists. But the lying crooks who run our nation say I should go kill them? Should I maybe go and do some reading before nah gently caress it I want some money and to kill people, that justifies everything I've done according to some of the worst people who will ever have lived and bought a somethingawful account in 40 years.

# ¿ Sep 29, 2017 06:28

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Woozy posted:

Why would anyone give a poo poo about how it "comes across"? It's an obvious truth. Anyone who is capable of navigating the complex minefield of moral hazard associated with being a mob hitman has all the necessary cognitive tools to recognize how categorically wrong it must be to willingly serve as a Troop in America's wars. If its bad optics or whatever to say so then the people watching are the problem.

But what if that hitman needed the money for college? Then it's ok for them to do whatever they want. Yes, I'm a sociopath, why do you ask?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Sep 29, 2017 07:20

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Another warmonger chestnut: we can't actually judge anyone for anything ever, because we accidentally stepped on a snail and killed it once.

# ¿ Sep 30, 2017 19:47

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Mahoning posted:

If you want some hope, just think of how organized and prevalent the anti-war movement was 50+ years ago and then think of how much more organized it would be in 2017.

Uh haha, there's something you should know.

# ¿ Oct 1, 2017 01:21

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

There actually was a resistance to the Bush wars, they were just covered up and systematically downplayed by the right-wing media.

# ¿ Oct 1, 2017 18:50

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Harton posted:

I mean Jesus Christ Donald loving Trump is president. America learned nothing from any of this.

This thread is case in point, look at people tripping over themselves to justify waging war. Part of the reason we can never learn anything from our failed, devastating conflicts is the dire inability of anyone to indict the people actually fighting them.

# ¿ Oct 1, 2017 21:14

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

soggybagel posted:

Haha this. No one is loving justifying this broken rear end poo poo war.

Oh but you are. You're not justifying that war specifically but more precisely the concept of an imperialist war, which is a direct outcome of unquestioning support for the military itself. Which has been all over this thread, exemplified in your repeated attempts to disconnect the people waging the war with those leading it. I'm sorry for trying to have a deeper discussion about indefensible but common wisdom that cast the soldiers alternately as brave selfless warriors and barely-conscious fools led along by transparently false promises.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Oct 2, 2017 01:51

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

Speaking as someone who identifies as left wing enough to be a near socialist, some people in this thread are acting like that insufferable high school kid who just read Zinn and now can't stop telling everyone who'll listen about the evils of Amerikkka.

Attitudes like this are case in point, and why we'll continue to destroy nations forever.

It's also interesting to note how dismissive everyone has been of the idea that maybe adults should be able to make intelligent choices, especially when the lives of millions are at stake. You badmouth an unpopular war with one breath and make flippant non-responses to people who question the social and ideological apparatus that continues to allow wars like that to happen. And I haven't even gotten to indicting the real cause of imperialist war: capitalism. But it's pretty clear none of you are ready for that.

tapine fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Oct 2, 2017

# ¿ Oct 2, 2017 01:51

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Millions of people lay dead, guys. Maybe we should delve a little deeper than the documentary and examine the rhetorical causes for wars like Vietnam. I guess we'd have to examine our own beliefs and not impotently shake our fists at people like McNamara for that though.

# ¿ Oct 2, 2017 02:09

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 08:04

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Mofabio posted:

One thing these docs will never discuss is how the US military pulled thousands of young women out of the countryside and into cities it controlled, then coerced them into selling sex to invading American troops. You might get individual stories from individual troops -- because they are extremely common -- of Vietnamese prostitution, but there is no discussion on how the sex infrastructure had to physically be born into existence, scale up to serve so many men. Because we don't address things like this, that the military is a international rape engine, America will do it every invasion. All the women in Abu Ghraib were found pregnant, all due around the same time. If there is an invasion of North Korea, thousands of Koreans will re-enter service as comfort women against their will.

Even the so-called heroes of World War II raped their way across France. It also happens to the women serving in our military. To call it systematic would be an understatement.

# ¿ Oct 2, 2017 05:24

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Ken Burns - The Vietnam War