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leper khan
Dec 28, 2010
Honest to god thinks Half Life 2 is a bad game. But at least he likes Monster Hunter.

Stick100 posted:

Wow, that's brutal. Looking at Programmer jobs (North America) it appears to pay about 40%-60% of the industry norms. Guess I'll stick to working on boring software for financial companies.

Pay seems roughly in line with my expectation of industry norms. Games programming has been traditionally noted as below average. If youíre looking from the perspective of finance, remember than finance is typically above average.

You definitely trade some salary for the environment. Whether itís worth it is very individualized. I very much enjoy working in games/entertainment; though almost all of my experience is between that and government contracts using games tech.

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djkillingspree
Apr 2, 2001
make a hole with a gun perpendicular

Stick100 posted:

Wow, that's brutal. Looking at Programmer jobs (North America) it appears to pay about 40%-60% of the industry norms. Guess I'll stick to working on boring software for financial companies.

On the one hand, I wouldn't be surprised - but on the other, I do have to wonder to what extent this self-selects for lower wages. There's a huge stigma on sharing wage info and well-paid people might be afraid to share their salaries.

It IS pretty well known however that game programmers get paid a lot less than non-game programmers for work that tends to be a lot harder.

Hughlander
May 11, 2005



Stick100 posted:

Wow, that's brutal. Looking at Programmer jobs (North America) it appears to pay about 40%-60% of the industry norms. Guess I'll stick to working on boring software for financial companies.

Sample size of 6 in the US and none of them at a major tech hub isn't going to give you a good sense of what's out there. Also that was just listed as gross and not TCP. That said in my experience it's about the same salary as a non-tech focused company. Could you do better in fintech or at a FAANG? Yes, but that's the same answer for any job that's not FinTech or FAANG imo.

cubicle gangster
Jun 26, 2005

magda, make the tea


Stick100 posted:

Wow, that's brutal. Looking at Programmer jobs (North America) it appears to pay about 40%-60% of the industry norms. Guess I'll stick to working on boring software for financial companies.

Any creative/'fun' work pays much less than the boring alternative. I could near double my salary within a couple of weeks fishing around but it would turn my job into something that feels closer to data entry.

Falcorum
Oct 21, 2010


cubicle gangster posted:

Any creative/'fun' work pays much less than the boring alternative. I could near double my salary within a couple of weeks fishing around but it would turn my job into something that feels closer to data entry.

I wonder how much it is due to the creative/"fun" aspect of it and how much is simply due to some higher-ups at some companies having a mentality along the lines of "oh they're working their dream job, we won't bother being competitive in terms of salary since they're unlikely to seek better offers".
In a few weeks, I'll be moving to another company within the same city and doing similar programming work, still within the industry, while making nearly 1.5x the amount I'm making currently. At the same time there's people that have been at my current one significantly longer and don't really earn all that much more than I do at the moment, simply due to tiny raises (oh, you've been promoted to lead? congratulations on your 1000 pound raise ).

mutata
Mar 1, 2003

You walk in with the Turnips, you leave with the Bells.


It's generally true across the board that your salary will go up much much faster by switching companies than by working your way up at a single company.

cubicle gangster
Jun 26, 2005

magda, make the tea


Early in people's careers it is partly due to the sheer amount of enthusiastic fresh meat knocking at the door. People are so desperate to work in games, movies and animation that they put up with lower pay and worse conditions. But they get their 'dream job', so they don't rock the boat.

For more experienced people (who probably make a decent salary, just not as much as they could) other industries that don't rely on the sale of a creative product / single revenue stream it's not needed to quantify each person's contribution vs what they cost. Revenue from other departments gets shared. For example the hedge funders at JP Morgan can bankroll hiring new developers to update an app, and the app never needs to make back 2x the salaries of everyone who worked on it to be seen as worth it as it aids other parts of the business and their public image.

Or for example and relevant to my industry, it's easy for wework to offer a blanket 'we will pay 1.5x + what you are currently on there' offer at every one of our employees via LinkedIn because their revenue isn't dependant on selling the 3d work, it's a supporting role to their main income. We pay really well too, we are loving expensive. Still only selling creative output though.

It's much, much harder to balance the books with a single revenue stream that is sold in cycles, and the numbers involved in keeping 50-100 people employed with nothing being released for a year are terrifying. Start paying people too high too soon and you could run out of money.

cubicle gangster fucked around with this message at Feb 22, 2019 around 02:51

RossCo
Dec 30, 2012

I have no idea what I am doing in almost any given situation.

I was going to say something mean about unionization then I saw the news coming out of Arenanet.

Rough times for a lot of folks, and I can understand the drive even if I don't personally agree with it.

novaSphere
Jan 25, 2003



EA Australia is getting hit by layoffs too, apparently

Buckwheat Sings
Feb 9, 2005


RossCo posted:

I was going to say something mean about unionization then I saw the news coming out of Arenanet.

Rough times for a lot of folks, and I can understand the drive even if I don't personally agree with it.

If working hard means you STILL get laid off even when a company is successful, i.e Blizzard, then what else can you do than band together?

The games industry looks like a shitshow from the outside aside from a few islands here and there.

I mean snark it up I guess, but honestly this poo poo isn't really that funny anymore when families and talent are being pushed aside for useless executives hellbent on making repeat mistakes. The libertarian fantasy is over. When people make fun of unions when there's barely any left is like Chud farmers voting for Trump then whining when his policies put them put of business.

RossCo
Dec 30, 2012

I have no idea what I am doing in almost any given situation.

Buckwheat Sings posted:

I mean snark it up I guess, but honestly this poo poo isn't really that funny anymore when families and talent are being pushed aside for useless executives hellbent on making repeat mistakes. The libertarian fantasy is over. When people make fun of unions when there's barely any left is like Chud farmers voting for Trump then whining when his policies put them put of business.

Oh you misunderstand, I've been in the industry for a long time and know some of the people who are pushing the industry unionization idea personally. Most of my reservations are around their ability to effectively advocate for industry employees, especially with the inclination to treat it as a whole rather than very diverse segments.

I'm not touching the wider political aspect with the longest stick in the world, that's a one way road with nothing good at the end.

Trust me though, it's hard not to deploy the humour when the tenth super earnest painfully idealistic person has wandered up to you at a conference to talk about the subject with a look in their bunny rabbit eyes that suggests they are 100% certain they can win you over, especially when expressing the feeling that you aren't sure it is going to work quite how they envision instantly tags you as the greatest monster in the room. GDC is going to be an exercise in smiling, nodding, and escaping conversations.

All this being said: All the layoffs suck the big one, especially in the the areas which are going to need to relocate. Those hurt.

RossCo fucked around with this message at Feb 22, 2019 around 16:19

Flannelette
Jan 16, 2010



Emerson Cod posted:

I'm one of the leads on Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil, so I can answer this at least for mods. The majority of our 3d modelers are students building a portfolio, along with some hobbyists and a couple people actually in industry. We attracted most of them by either specifically contacting them based off their other work or they heard of us through word of mouth. Some of our modelers started out as total beginners and learned over the course of the project and some came in as experts. A big factor in attracting and retaining modelers and other members has been the reputation that we've built as a project that is not vaporware which has been a really hard sell with something of that scale. Most mod teams also only have a handful of members, Cyrodiil alone has 100 members total only a fraction of which are active at any given time.

Are there communities where modders can ask for help from amateur artists/programmers etc and stuff like that? I'm more interested in the programming part of making games but I used to use maya and houdini for boring non game kinds of things (so I can't do textures and materials even though I still have access to the software) and thought it would be cool to learn it in a way to could casually help others as well in my spare time.

Emerson Cod
Apr 14, 2004
Here I was just about to tell you all to shut the hell up, and then you stopped talking so I didn't have to.

Nexus Mods and Reddit are where we connect with a lot of artists. Artstation, too.

MithrilRoshi
Oct 11, 2015


As a game dev myself I know this has happened to me but I was wondering if its common. Have you ever been working on a game and a design choice comes up by the rest of the team that makes you go 'what why? No thats horrible' but its implemented anyway then they are SHOCKED to see no one likes it?

I mean like bare bones bad, not subjective way. Like "Lets make the player stand in front of every door for five seconds while it opens SUPER SLOWLY"

Hughlander
May 11, 2005



MithrilRoshi posted:

As a game dev myself I know this has happened to me but I was wondering if its common. Have you ever been working on a game and a design choice comes up by the rest of the team that makes you go 'what why? No thats horrible' but its implemented anyway then they are SHOCKED to see no one likes it?

I mean like bare bones bad, not subjective way. Like "Lets make the player stand in front of every door for five seconds while it opens SUPER SLOWLY"

Yes but that happens in every industry, it's not games specific. Best you can do is keep track of game mechanics you love/hate and if someone comes up with an idea like that be prepared to show them where it was done in the past and people hated it. Youtube clips of it from LPs, reddit posts disparaging it etc...

Hyper Crab Tank
Feb 10, 2014

The future of crustacean-based warfare


I find myself in the opposite situation more often, I think; oftentimes we're faced with some problem that needs to be solved that other games have solved before. My instinct is usually to just do what everyone else is already doing, because I tend to think they're doing it for a reason. Granted, that's not always the case. But there seems to be an instinct among creative people (and I've been guilty of this myself) to want to do something new and untested and unexplored way more often than we should because the standard solution seems, I don't know, boring I guess.

But the problem with new and untested solutions is that some number of times out of ten they turn out to not work very well... and when you've tried a couple things and end up doing the standard solution in the end anyway, I sometimes feel like we wasted a lot of time. Yes, you do need to push boundaries now and then because that's how you move forward, but I think you should be judicious about what you experiment with so that the potential payoff is big enough in the event that you do come up with something that's new and crazy and really good. Reserve it for the core experience, not for all the little functional supporting elements that make the core work.

Because if you don't, you'll spend a lot of your time designing doors that people have to stand in front of for five seconds because the standard way where doors just open was too boring and you wanted a more cinematic experience.

Hyper Crab Tank fucked around with this message at Feb 25, 2019 around 16:56

Hughlander
May 11, 2005



Hyper Crab Tank posted:

I find myself in the opposite situation more often, I think; oftentimes we're faced with some problem that needs to be solved that other games have solved before. My instinct is usually to just do what everyone else is already doing, because I tend to think they're doing it for a reason. Granted, that's not always the case. But there seems to be an instinct among creative people (and I've been guilty of this myself) to want to do something new and untested and unexplored way more often than we should because the standard solution seems, I don't know, boring I guess.

But the problem with new and untested solutions is that some number of times out of ten they turn out to not work very well... and when you've tried a couple things and end up doing the standard solution in the end anyway, I sometimes feel like we wasted a lot of time. Yes, you do need to push boundaries now and then because that's how you move forward, but I think you should be judicious about what you experiment with so that the potential payoff is big enough in the event that you do come up with something that's new and crazy and really good. Reserve it for the core experience, not for all the little functional supporting elements that make the core work.

Because if you don't, you'll spend a lot of your time designing doors that people have to stand in front of for five seconds because the standard way where doors just open was too boring and you wanted a more cinematic experience.

I remember calling that out at some places saying, "We just need an A-Frame where the elevator doors open to saying "This quarter all design decisions will be copied from..." and then a spot for a box where we can put CoD/Halo/Battlefield. It'll save a lot of time in meetings."

But more seriously the most important thing is to ensure that design and engineering are playing the same games, and have a common language.

djkillingspree
Apr 2, 2001
make a hole with a gun perpendicular

Hughlander posted:

I remember calling that out at some places saying, "We just need an A-Frame where the elevator doors open to saying "This quarter all design decisions will be copied from..." and then a spot for a box where we can put CoD/Halo/Battlefield. It'll save a lot of time in meetings."

But more seriously the most important thing is to ensure that design and engineering are playing the same games, and have a common language.

lol i know projects that have been sunk by too frequently changing the game they copied from ><

Masey
Aug 22, 2006
Pancakes.

Should I bite the bullet and find a 3D school in SoCal to get the connections so I can get a job in the industry? I already have a degree but I'm tired of 2D freelancing and I live in the middle of nowhere so relocating is an absolute must if I want to be a 3D character/prop artist in the game industry. But I'm also older (30ish) did my train leave the station already?

Slayerjerman
Nov 27, 2005
Ninja Bait

Masey posted:

Should I bite the bullet and find a 3D school in SoCal to get the connections so I can get a job in the industry? I already have a degree but I'm tired of 2D freelancing and I live in the middle of nowhere so relocating is an absolute must if I want to be a 3D character/prop artist in the game industry. But I'm also older (30ish) did my train leave the station already?

I know most people on here will be very supportive and say to just go for it if it's what you want to do. Under most circumstances that is true and you should at the very minimum look into your options. However, in the REAL world, you don't get jobs by going to some "3D/Games" school, the school is more or less for the basic training and put you into soul crushing debt that you'll struggle with the rest of your adult life.If you want to get into this field, you can do so with just a really well done portfolio, decent skill/talent and *some sort* of tangible experience. All of which you can do for literally FREE... "Ok random SA goon, how the hell do I start?" you may ask.

Start by telling us what experience you currently have so we can understand how your current 2D freelancing skills can translate into 3D work. Character creation is extremely different than prop/environment work, that's the first thing you need to understand. I think you need to first dabble with modding and content creation before you look at taking on 60k+ of debt and committing 4yrs to trying to earn a degree in "games". Also consider that you'll be older age-wise when you graduate. It's a fact of life in the games biz...

In regards to age, the art side of the games industry is very heavily skewed to the younger crowd due to several reasons, including what employers will pay for talent and/or outsourcing. In many cases, employers will often turn away veteran artists (read: older artists) because of cost and time commitments, including....*gasp* like having a family... because the art side of things is where you often get crunched during production. Most older artists are director-level or leads of some sort, leaving the cheaper labor (the kids and outsourcing) to do the grunt work like making props. Character artwork is extremely competitive as is animation, especially these days with so much of it being mo-cap, so you'll work yourself to death trying to keep up. But, if you can pump out that generic and over-used "Disney/Pixar/Fortnite/Blizzard" look for 3d characters, you'll get a job pretty easily.

If you wanted to get into 3D animation, i'd say go to school and learn how to be a mo-cap artist, that's where the good money is at and future is headed. There are other art positions that could be a good fit for your 2d skill set, such as mobile game art, UI art and background art. I know some 2D guys that transitioned into doing texture painting and some went into doing VFX/Post-effects.

Slayerjerman fucked around with this message at Feb 25, 2019 around 23:49

Masey
Aug 22, 2006
Pancakes.

Slayerjerman posted:

I know most people on here will be very supportive and say to just go for it if it's what you want to do. Under most circumstances that is true and you should at the very minimum look into your options. However, in the REAL world, you don't get jobs by going to some "3D/Games" school, the school is more or less for the basic training and put you into soul crushing debt that you'll struggle with the rest of your adult life.If you want to get into this field, you can do so with just a really well done portfolio, decent skill/talent and *some sort* of tangible experience. All of which you can do for literally FREE... "Ok random SA goon, how the hell do I start?" you may ask.

Start by telling us what experience you currently have so we can understand how your current 2D freelancing skills can translate into 3D work. Character creation is extremely different than prop/environment work, that's the first thing you need to understand. I think you need to first dabble with modding and content creation before you look at taking on 60k+ of debt and committing 4yrs to trying to earn a degree in "games". Also consider that you'll be older age-wise when you graduate. It's a fact of life in the games biz...

In regards to age, the art side of the games industry is very heavily skewed to the younger crowd due to several reasons, including what employers will pay for talent and/or outsourcing. In many cases, employers will often turn away veteran artists (read: older artists) because of cost and time commitments, including....*gasp* like having a family... because the art side of things is where you often get crunched during production. Most older artists are director-level or leads of some sort, leaving the cheaper labor (the kids and outsourcing) to do the grunt work like making props. Character artwork is extremely competitive as is animation, especially these days with so much of it being mo-cap, so you'll work yourself to death trying to keep up. But, if you can pump out that generic and over-used "Disney/Pixar/Fortnite/Blizzard" look for 3d characters, you'll get a job pretty easily.

If you wanted to get into 3D animation, i'd say go to school and learn how to be a mo-cap artist, that's where the good money is at and future is headed. There are other art positions that could be a good fit for your 2d skill set, such as mobile game art, UI art and background art. I know some 2D guys that transitioned into doing texture painting and some went into doing VFX/Post-effects.

I do really appreciate the thoughts! And it's nice to hear your insight.

I'll be honest animation really doesn't appeal to me in any fashion.

I've been freelancing for about 15 years now, primarily character/portrait work. My portfolio is a bit out of date but could easily be polished upon: https://www.artstation.com/lorainesmith
I've really only ever spent a few hours in Sculptris. Here is something I made a few months ago that's unfinished but I found myself getting frustrated with the face somewhat: https://imgur.com/a/KhC7qHD
Like I said I have a degree and it's somewhat relevant but moreso to illustration titles and maybe extended into concept/character work (painting). I spent some time sculpting traditionally before tooling around in Sculptris so the jump wasn't hard. It dawned on me while looking at jobs that it seems a lot more companies are hiring for 3D roles rather than 2D roles and I actually quite enjoyed the limited time I've spent sculpting.
I've taught myself Photoshop and other various illustration/painting programs but I know at some point personal education can only get me so far in terms of finding a career.
I know there are a bunch of online classes where you can work one on one mentorship style with folks in the industry and I've been eyeballing them as it seems the biggest thing on top of continuing education is who you know.

I know I've got a bit to go skill wise but I'm getting closer every day, I live in the middle of nowhere (West Virginia) so my networking options are limited. Going back to school for another 2-3 years is appealing because of the opportunity to be eligible for internships again (as it seems most require you to be returning to school the following semester, at least in the US) and meeting educators and peers who go on to work in the industry.

If it helps I could potentially have a legitimate copy of 3DS Max/Maya in terms of mentorships I could be looking at online or beginner classes.

Masey fucked around with this message at Feb 26, 2019 around 01:44

Slayerjerman
Nov 27, 2005
Ninja Bait

Well, it looks like you have the fundamentals already as an artist, which is pretty much what you would have gained by going to school. Schooling is for teaching art basics like composition, anatomy, color wheels and various mediums as most students lack those fundamentals coming into an art school usually (or they have some very minor past experience, such as from high school).

The problem with learning programs (and techniques) is that many companies vary in terms of what they use... Some developers use 3DS Max, others use Maya so if you spent the time learning one over the other, that can sometimes be an issue and could impact your chances even before you get a phone call to interview. Although many of the fundamental skills and techniques are transferable between the many of these programs. Its just like programming, some are better with C# over C++ and it comes down to what your role requires. For example; if you were doing character artwork, you'd want to learn Zbrush, Sculptris and Maya with having a strong understanding of anatomy and how your characters will deform when animated (even if you are not the rigger or animator). Whereas if you were a prop/environmental artist, you'd be more focused on possibly 3DS Max, Unity3D/UE4 editor with strong fundamentals on how to make and export objects, cobble together prefabs, deploy lighting, apply scripts and optimize assets for run-time.

Finally, let me reiterate you will have a very unlikely (read: nil) chance to meet industry contacts at school. At most you will might make contact with "devs" through the school and/or its faculty... I know this because I used to attend a local game school as a developer when we were seeking interns and doing portfolio reviews with my ex-professors... If you want to network, you need to go to the various game jams, GDC, PAX and even E3 (if you can) and meet with devs directly. Game jams especially - those are extremely good for not only networking, but also for gaining that valuable experience you will need. Ultimately, you should try to get into the modding scene, find some online/remote teams and see about throwing down with them to do something, most of the time mod team projects go no where, but its worth a shot to try and do something.

mutata
Mar 1, 2003

You walk in with the Turnips, you leave with the Bells.


A majority of devs use Maya these days. I'd recommend against learning 3dsmax.

If you get into a decent school in a hub that feeds into large studios then school can be an ok place for getting a foot in the door, but that's a big if. Given your fundamentals and relatively affordable current location, my advice would be similar to the above: dig in, take out a small loan (if possible/necessary, sub-$10k) to refresh your hardware, get the software you need, and buy some quality online training and professional mentoring and build up your portfolio in-place. Once you have some qualities work that seems to be well received, then hit GDC for interviews.

Masey
Aug 22, 2006
Pancakes.

mutata posted:

A majority of devs use Maya these days. I'd recommend against learning 3dsmax.

If you get into a decent school in a hub that feeds into large studios then school can be an ok place for getting a foot in the door, but that's a big if. Given your fundamentals and relatively affordable current location, my advice would be similar to the above: dig in, take out a small loan (if possible/necessary, sub-$10k) to refresh your hardware, get the software you need, and buy some quality online training and professional mentoring and build up your portfolio in-place. Once you have some qualities work that seems to be well received, then hit GDC for interviews.

Noted on the loan and Maya. I'd like to wind up in SoCal eventually so the idea of getting out there doesn't turn me off because that's where I'd like to end up anyways but if I could do it for less than 40-60k in debt on top of everything else I think I'd much prefer that, moving can come later. Thanks for being real with me you two, I've been incredibly frustrated with how stuck I've felt lately. I'll explore my options about investing in self education with my bank. Recently talked to my small alumni association and they'll validate any requests AutoDesk has about my student software registrations for the foreseeable future so at least I don't have to sink anything into a legit copy of the software. I hate to ask this because the only mod-able game I really play is WoW I'm assuming you mean like actual edits to the character models like in Skyrim or something? I'll also investigate texture work for games as that seems like the kind of tedious work I enjoy as well.

Masey fucked around with this message at Feb 26, 2019 around 04:19

Slayerjerman
Nov 27, 2005
Ninja Bait

Im glad our advice is making sense :-)

Re: SoCal - Its pretty expensive comparably to say WV, you're going to need a plan for employment/income to make ends meet while you strike out for the 3D gold mines as it were. Im sure you are freelancing remotely already, which is what I do as well (for Game Design) from my remote jungle fortress here in the wilds of Hawaii. Just keep in mind you should aim to live on the outskirts of the major hubs and focus your efforts on education and learning rather than trying to keep the lights on and landlord paid. I lived out in Santa Clarita and in Burbank proper when I worked at WB and of the two, out in the 'burbs was far more affordable and pleasant despite the horrendous commute, but since you have no commute to speak of, you could live pretty much anywhere in the SoCal area.

Re: Modding - I'm talking about modding an existing game with a widely-used game engine, so yes, I am referring to something that you can use UE4/Unity to learn game tools with. ARK is a good game to try modding with as there are quite a few resources for that being built in UE4. I would definitely recommend you stay from Skyrim/Fallout modding as its on Bethesda's proprietary Creation game engine, that is unless you want to get a job at Bethesda... modding for that will learn you some techniques, but learning the Creation engine is a dead end compared to UE4 or Unity, so using your time wisely to learn a widely used platform will greatly give you a leg-up. I would also avoid modding things using CryEngine, unless that is you are really into Amazon's Lumberyard engine because fewer and fewer studios are making use of it.

You can also download and install the UE4 engine/editor and tools for free and just fiddle about with some entry-level tutorials (same goes for Unity). But having a "working" game to modify makes things more exciting I think. I learned modding back on the original UT and Quake1/2/3 just for fun.

Stick100
Mar 18, 2003


Masey posted:

Should I bite the bullet and find a 3D school in SoCal to get the connections so I can get a job in the industry? I already have a degree but I'm tired of 2D freelancing and I live in the middle of nowhere so relocating is an absolute must if I want to be a 3D character/prop artist in the game industry. But I'm also older (30ish) did my train leave the station already?

(Not in the industry, just an older programmer). If you'de decided you want to live in SoCal then go live in SoCal. It would be best to get a job there first, maybe marketing/something, not a passion. If you want to be in game dev in SoCal you'll have a much easier time getting the job once you are there.

Why do you want to live in SoCal? Why do you want to be in the game industry?

Sorry to be harsh but often be comingle a bunch of different goals and desires and feel they all need to happen together. Maybe you want to be near SoCal because of family and maybe you want to be in game dev because you enjoy games, but those desires aren't bundled and probably neither are best served with school/a loan.

Live where you want to live, go to meetups/join discords/do work and get connections the old fashioned way.

GC_ChrisReeves
Dec 16, 2004



"You're going to be...amazing."

mutata posted:

A majority of devs use Maya these days. I'd recommend against learning 3dsmax.

As a Max user this hurts but is very true

Hyper Crab Tank
Feb 10, 2014

The future of crustacean-based warfare


We use Blender!

cubicle gangster
Jun 26, 2005

magda, make the tea


I hired someone who had never used max before and was Maya only, within a month she was about par with both and after 2 months was better with max than she ever was with Maya. For full time salaried game positions are studios really that reluctant to invest in people with good work?

I guess it makes sense with fx work but for poly modeling the tools are mostly identical at a base level.

Hyper Crab Tank
Feb 10, 2014

The future of crustacean-based warfare


cubicle gangster posted:

For full time salaried game positions are studios really that reluctant to invest in people with good work?

Nah. But if you're going to start learning from scratch, might as well learn the more likely one to be immediately useful, right?

mutata
Mar 1, 2003

You walk in with the Turnips, you leave with the Bells.


Hyper Crab Tank posted:

Nah. But if you're going to start learning from scratch, might as well learn the more likely one to be immediately useful, right?

Was gonna post literally this.

At the end of the day, most companies will be happy to give you allowances for learning new software, but everyone's gotta start with something. The only time I've seen a software package come into play in hiring decisions is when the company needs someone FOR A THING RIGHT NOW GOTTA HIT THE GROUND RUNNING, but that's fairly rare.

OneEightHundred
Feb 28, 2008

Soon, we will be unstoppable!


Hughlander posted:

Yes but that happens in every industry, it's not games specific. Best you can do is keep track of game mechanics you love/hate and if someone comes up with an idea like that be prepared to show them where it was done in the past and people hated it. Youtube clips of it from LPs, reddit posts disparaging it etc...
I think the best route is try to hammer out some quick proof-of-concept of the way you think it should be. It helps cut through a lot of the reservations.

... unless they're convinced that, say, waiting 5 seconds to open a door is better because it's more "visceral" or some other thing that they think is way more important than it really is, at which point you have to wait for fresh eyes testers to tell them it sucks.

Hughlander posted:

I remember calling that out at some places saying, "We just need an A-Frame where the elevator doors open to saying "This quarter all design decisions will be copied from..." and then a spot for a box where we can put CoD/Halo/Battlefield/PUBG. It'll save a lot of time in meetings."
ftfy

OneEightHundred fucked around with this message at Feb 26, 2019 around 18:57

RossCo
Dec 30, 2012

I have no idea what I am doing in almost any given situation.

mutata posted:

Was gonna post literally this.

At the end of the day, most companies will be happy to give you allowances for learning new software, but everyone's gotta start with something. The only time I've seen a software package come into play in hiring decisions is when the company needs someone FOR A THING RIGHT NOW GOTTA HIT THE GROUND RUNNING, but that's fairly rare.

I think people consistently underestimate how hard it is to find good candidates. If you can demonstrate that you have good overall skills (communication, problem solving) and have a solid track record then a lot of places will be happy to give you time to spin up with a new tool or language, doubly so if they think you are a good fit for the team from a personal perspective.

In terms of Socal I have lived here for five years and love it but holy crap is it expensive.

RossCo fucked around with this message at Feb 26, 2019 around 20:23

Gearman
Dec 6, 2011



Something I try to regularly tell students or artists entering the industry: tools are temporary, fundamentals are forever. I can teach a good artist how to use Max in a month or two. That's a very small investment compared to the years that it takes for someone to develop as a good artist.

Masey
Aug 22, 2006
Pancakes.

I have family and friends out there and spent my Summers growing up in LA & Palm Dale. I really enjoy the weather and quite frankly I can not stand the rain/humidity. Go to Anaheim yearly for Blizzcon as well and always enjoy our time out there although I'm painfully aware I wouldn't be able to afford living there or Irvine.

Originally my drive for game dev came from wanting to work on World of Warcraft and/or Heroes of the Storm. Games were a huge part of how I socialized as a kid and as I grew up I realized I kept wanting to make worlds like the ones I enjoyed with my friends.

aas Bandit
Sep 28, 2001
Oompa Loompa

Nap Ghost

Masey posted:

But I'm also older (30ish) did my train leave the station already?

You've been getting a lot of great advice, but re: this specifically, nah, go for it if you really want it.

I switched careers (like, neck-breaking change in direction) to game dev when I was in my mid-30s.

Adjustment was a little rough for a while--my first job was 3 hours away so I'd drive down to the Bay Area Monday morning and drive home Friday night. I slept on a thermarest under my desk during the week and made a bunch of Quake 3 maps for two years to get a better job.

One of the best decisions I ever made.

RossCo
Dec 30, 2012

I have no idea what I am doing in almost any given situation.

aas Bandit posted:

You've been getting a lot of great advice, but re: this specifically, nah, go for it if you really want it.

I switched careers (like, neck-breaking change in direction) to game dev when I was in my mid-30s.

Adjustment was a little rough for a while--my first job was 3 hours away so I'd drive down to the Bay Area Monday morning and drive home Friday night. I slept on a thermarest under my desk during the week and made a bunch of Quake 3 maps for two years to get a better job.

One of the best decisions I ever made.

I respect the hell out of this. We all have our first awful games industry jobs (I remember getting my first tiny bonus and thinking "Yay, rent!", and really liking crunch time because I got my food paid for) but grinding through that in your thirties?

Hat off to you.

Slayerjerman
Nov 27, 2005
Ninja Bait

aas Bandit posted:

You've been getting a lot of great advice, but re: this specifically, nah, go for it if you really want it.

I switched careers (like, neck-breaking change in direction) to game dev when I was in my mid-30s.

Adjustment was a little rough for a while--my first job was 3 hours away so I'd drive down to the Bay Area Monday morning and drive home Friday night. I slept on a thermarest under my desk during the week and made a bunch of Quake 3 maps for two years to get a better job.

One of the best decisions I ever made.

I have to respond to this by saying this mindset is why the games industry is in serious dire straights right now and why unionization talk has started up to protect people from being taken advantage of because "games". Its certainly inspiring that someone would work so hard to do a career change to do what they love, but it's also foolish that you would put yourself through such an ordeal. I have many tales of similar situations both myself and colleagues have gone through and I can honestly state that every single time we were taken advantage of and threatened with losing our jobs if we didn't just shut up and deal with it.

Work smarter, not harder.

Edit; When I ran teams, I always ended up kicking people out to go home at the end of the day. Some wanted to stay late to "impress the boss" and I would drop kick their asses out the door to go sleep. One time, I even "sabotaged" the network server to fake an outage to send people home on time. Yeah, it really happened and no one was the wiser. I always tried to look out for my teams and make sure they weren't being abused/exploited.

Slayerjerman fucked around with this message at Feb 28, 2019 around 03:15

RossCo
Dec 30, 2012

I have no idea what I am doing in almost any given situation.

I remember being thrown out of the office by my first lead and being extremely annoyed because I wanted the food and also in that studio (which will remain nameless) we were allowed to download as many warez and play network games all we wanted.

Its also undoubtedly true that newcomers (especially programmers) have often not yet been disavowed of the notion that they are the smartest person in the room and the person telling them they should go home is threatened by their greatness.

Not saying that the industry doesn't take advantage of its staff, but not every new entry staying late in the studio is because of Bad Bosses Boo Hiss.

Also the person above said they had a Thermarest. Living the dream, us peasants had to sleep on the floor! :-)

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ETPC
Jul 10, 2008

Wheel with it.


please unionize

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