Ask A Game Dev! - We Are Your Friend's Uncle

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Ask A Game Dev! - We Are Your Friend's Uncle

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Anybody else following the Ooblets debacle the last few days? Holy poo poo it's like the perfect example of how bad things have gotten for game developers in terms of targeted harassment campaigns in the last few years.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2019 17:45

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 13:13

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

man, the people in the EGS thread are like perfectly encompassing everything i hate about the internet and how it treats game developers

# ¿ Aug 6, 2019 18:02

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

the similarity between the ooblets debacle and gamergate is so uncanny lmao

# ¿ Aug 6, 2019 18:16

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Every other person I associate with in games industry/press circles has this fear of "wow, it doesn't matter what I say or do, I could be the next target of a harassment campaign and people will blame me for it." Like 5 years ago it was gamergate, last year it was the arenanet thing, and now it's ooblets. (Not a coincidence that most of the people who have to fear this are from marginalized background.)

Kanine fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Aug 6, 2019

# ¿ Aug 6, 2019 18:44

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

cubicle gangster posted:

That didnt happen.

Epic are offering small time developers lump sums which match their target minimum sold in exchange for a year of exclusivity. Most small time indie developers - and big ones - have just burnt through life savings, remortgaged houses, and still dont know if they're going to be able to pay off debts when the game comes out.
Gamers upon seeing a developer choose to not risk total destitution after years developing a game with all the doubt and worries that process carries are getting angry to the point of death threats because now they have to use a different launcher.

Don't forget how many people are retroactively picking over every single word either dev has said in order to portray them as being assholes or something (because that matters in this situation?)

# ¿ Aug 6, 2019 19:16

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

I worked retail/service since I was 14 and "the customer is always right" attitude was boomer bullshit then and it sure as hell is bullshit now that I work in game development

# ¿ Aug 6, 2019 19:19

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Does anybody feel like there's a massive divide between the average gamer and game developers. Like it doesn't make sense to me, game development is more accessible now than ever (you can see this with the explosion of indie releases.) But It seems like the average person I see posting in SA/reddit/twitter (outside very specific spheres) seems to have a really weird and inaccurate views of game development and the realities of it?

# ¿ Aug 6, 2019 19:47

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

actually come to think of i think gamers not understanding how game development works is really just a particularly egregious example of a larger phenomenon of how creators are devalued in society (it's just noticeable because of how massive and visible games are now)

like i think the mentality of a rando on twitter armchairing at a programmer going "just implement this -incredibly complex thing- its so easy and you're just lazy" isnt all that different from the stuff you see graphic designers/photographers/etc. dealing with that's well documented on sites like clientsfromhell

# ¿ Aug 6, 2019 20:19

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Discendo Vox posted:

Sorry, I'm hypersensitive to it because so much oxygen is spent on the right way for the devs to speak, versus really digging into the preexisting, root cause Toxic Gamer Tribalism.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2019 22:45

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

what's your suggestion on what to do specifically in this situation when you're targeted

# ¿ Aug 6, 2019 23:15

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

honestly "anti-consumer" has really rapidly become the new "ethics in gaming journalism"

just follow some of the threads in SA going on right now about this and compare them with archived threads from when gamergate was new and happening

Kanine fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Aug 7, 2019

# ¿ Aug 7, 2019 13:55

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

MJBuddy posted:

So at what point do we layer into the discussion that these aren't organic mobs at all, and they're largely driven by outrage and hate based YouTubers farming an algorithm?

Virtually every vitriolic response you can find on Twitter can be tracked back to a user sharing videos of the exact position they're representing from one of a dozen or so of those folks. This most recent EGS event is part of an almost year long campaign of this exact thing, and videos that use the actual language "Epic Games Store Must Be Stopped" is a bit troubling.

It's not "don't buy their stuff" or "This is a bad idea." It's a direct call to action, and people will repeat the content in those videos without an ounce of fact checking or pushback and cite screencaps of those videos in arguments. For large swathes of gamers, this is the only way they get their news and it's a distorted fox news gaming reality.

Calling mild inconveniences "anti-consumer" isn't some incredible parallel thinking. It was an approach that content creators used to point out a new outrageous slight every week and present themselves as the bastions against corporate exploitation. And when the stakes are that high, it's justified to behave in these putrid ways towards, you know, folks who do their job.

Last week a level designer at MachineGames was harassed until he closed his Twitter account because he posted that he was proud of the work he and his team did on Youngblood. He was harassed because Jim Sterling made a video that misrepresented what was in the MTX store to produce a talking point about the game. When people said it wasn't okay to harass a level designer, those who did justified it by saying he publicly had in his Twitter bio that he worked at that company so he was fair game.

This is hosed up

this is such a great example of the contradiction between someone calling themselves "pro-consumer" and then staunchly supporting capitalism. like i really think it's not a coincidence that a lot of these arguments are tapping into the genuine alienation that so many people feel under capitalism, and directing them towards an easy scapegoat instead of suggesting actual systemic changes

# ¿ Aug 7, 2019 13:57

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

https://www.polygon.com/2019/8/7/20758360/team-yell-pokemon-sword-and-shield-nintendo-switch-influencer

lmao this is perfect timing

# ¿ Aug 7, 2019 15:03

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

The 18-month fence hop, the six-day chair, and why video games are so hard to make
great article from polygon

# ¿ Aug 8, 2019 15:56

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Honestly the fundamental thing that makes me angry about the Ooblets debacle is like, when people are getting literally thousands of death threats that should be the focus of your empathy. Full stop.

If you go "well bloohoo they were rude boohoo" you're really just trying to rationalize.

This is more directed at the egs/steam threads, but I know at least here people will listen to me instead of just being lovely and acting in bad faith.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2019 00:31

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

But honestly whatever. I'm sure not long from now after Ooblets is out of the headlines another dev/journalist will get the target painted on their back for for something trivial and the hatemob will try to ruin their lives too. People will blame them for it because the internet has no memory and we live in a hellworld.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2019 00:36

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Studio posted:

Important question for other goon Game Devs:
How often do you find SA emojis on Slack, and wonder if the person that uploaded them is a goon???

I remember the Facepunch forums had a ton of stolen SA icons (that forum really was just an SA clone wasn't it)

# ¿ Aug 9, 2019 00:37

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Discendo Vox posted:

Their emojis menu had a "we stole these from SA" section.

jokes on them i guess since they've shut down lmao

# ¿ Aug 9, 2019 01:35

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

https://twitter.com/CarmenSinek/status/1160588706832457728

# ¿ Aug 11, 2019 21:16

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

I have a question about GWU, has anyone working in game dev had management make official (or unofficial) anti-union statements because of the news lately? It seems that as the movement for organizing the industry gains traction, we're going to start seeing more and more pushback from the powers that be.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2019 21:19

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

When the Internet Chases You From Your Home, How an Online Mob Created a Playbook for a Culture War

# ¿ Aug 16, 2019 03:08

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

https://twitter.com/ConalPierse/status/1163180037769744384

# ¿ Aug 19, 2019 02:58

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

I'm happy people are openly talking about and addressing this poo poo. I hope it continues instead of just being a short burst of activity.

# ¿ Aug 27, 2019 22:45

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

It's hosed that everyone I know who's called out coworkers for inappropriate comments/sexual harassment/etc. has been punished more than the actual people being lovely.

# ¿ Aug 27, 2019 22:59

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Capitalism actively encourages white supremacy/sexism/etc. These are features, not bugs.

# ¿ Aug 28, 2019 16:02

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

yeah im not going to have that debate

anyway, support gameworkersunite

# ¿ Aug 28, 2019 17:59

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

https://twitter.com/netgal_emi/status/1166308872157650946

# ¿ Aug 28, 2019 18:50

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Xarn posted:

Can I get some context? I don't follow gamedev twitter.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/20...sexual-assault/

also a ton of new accusations coming out, and there's also a lot of discourse the last 2 days about sexual harassment/assault/abuse/etc in the game industry and how it's a really big issue

# ¿ Aug 28, 2019 20:55

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

https://twitter.com/ckjong/status/1166768930603577344

https://twitter.com/karaastone/status/1166756509704843264

# ¿ Aug 29, 2019 15:59

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Alec Holowka committed suicide.

# ¿ Aug 31, 2019 20:38

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

eh i see what you're saying, ill keep that stuff to other threads

# ¿ Sep 1, 2019 21:31

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

is it rude for me to ask an indie developer if they're using store assets or if they're producing them in-house? if i do im going to preface it with saying both are valid, and that im asking mostly out of curiosity

# ¿ Sep 5, 2019 18:25

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

cubicle gangster posted:

Is it for a job interview or just a game that you are thinking of picking up?

There's such a stigma against store bought assets that the latter is definitely rude. if you're potentially working with them it's a fair question.
I guess if it was someone you'd became friends with/have a regular conversation about development with then it crosses back over into ok.

If someone asked me a question out of the blue which carried that much baggage and said it was just out of their personal curiosity, i would not believe them.

yeah good point. im asking from the perspective of an environment artist who's curious about selling assets on the unity/unreal stores myself. without that context it would definitely be uncouth

# ¿ Sep 5, 2019 19:04

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

i wonder if there's any less inclination for studios to do physical art books for games since concept/3d art from games is easier to find online now?

# ¿ Sep 10, 2019 15:40

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

i appreciate the advice, i get where ur coming from.

# ¿ Sep 19, 2019 18:06

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

also i have a general question for the thread, who's been your oldest coworker working in game development?

i was in a slack chat with a coworker and i realized he must be in his early 60's based on how he looks. (there's nothing inherently wrong with this, but i was surprised to see that considering we work in an industry well-known for burning people out)

# ¿ Sep 19, 2019 18:09

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Gonna ask a potentially stupid/uncomfortable question for other devs in the thread:

As a junior artist (currently on a contract but looking for more remote work soon) in the games industry how bad for my career is it that I tweet/retweet/like stuff on my public twitter about crunch, unionization, etc. (where I post my art and have a few hundred followers comprised of mostly other people in the games industry)

Am I basically loving myself over and making myself unhireable? Is it enough for me to make my account private when I send out applications or is me doing this essentially getting me put on a literal blacklist that will prevent me from obtaining gainful employment in the industry ever again.

I'm obviously not stupid enough to talk about this on the work slack/discord in the company I'm currently contracting for but several of my coworkers have followed me on twitter since I started there a few months ago.

# ¿ Dec 12, 2020 03:22

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

al-azad posted:

I feel like as long as you�re not an actual antagonist rear end in a top hat towards people directly you�re fine. I have heard of companies printing out social media accounts (I�m a government contractor in IT so it�s sometimes part of clearance checks) but it�s just like �is there a chance this person will commit criminal acts?�

It might be different if you�re looking for work in a big work for hire state but if you�re on the west coast or just not in America at all you�re fine.

the contracts ive worked my coworkers seemed to like me well enough and based on what the art directors told me at the end of the contracts they thought i did a good job so i guess i dont have to worry about that at least

MJBuddy posted:

I think the only issue you'd likely run into is how you vocalize your issues with crunch on interviews, but I don't think that's revelatory beyond "don't apply to work places that crunch their staff if you don't want to crunch."

Technically it could cost you a job but it's probably not a job you want.

But studios will define away crunch even internally. It's not "crunch" it's "our devs are dedicated". So be clear with boundaries or it will become an issue when it happens. I also don't think that's bad and I've never seen someone get looked down on for having a strong understanding of what they want in a role, including the work life balance.

Again, could "cost you the job" but you're looking for good job fits, not just any job.

i think this is 100% the best way to look at it honestly, though its still incredibly difficult to break out of the "oh god oh god i need to break into the industry and get stability beyond short remote contract work" anxiety

lmao i guess if i wanted to have stability i should have chosen a different industry

# ¿ Dec 12, 2020 09:23

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

also if im applying to a studio, is it reasonable for me to message a current employee of the company to ask what their experiences have been so far with the place?

should i just limit to asking former employees?

# ¿ Dec 12, 2020 09:24

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 13:13

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

i guess the real answer is to rely on anonymous reviews on glassdoor or other places if possible then

# ¿ Dec 12, 2020 10:14

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