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Mechanical Ape
Aug 7, 2007

But yes, occasionally I am known to smash.


I think of Jason like Randy from My Name Is Earl: mostly too dim to consider the big issues of right and wrong. He's going to do whatever the people around him are doing. Left to his own devices he'll drift toward people as dumb and venal as he is, but if forced to be around thoughtful decent people then some of that is going to rub off.

As an aside, I think the bullying of Michael by Trevor and his pals was not an act. I think they're genuine assholes and even though they're working together, Michael genuinely dislikes and is intimidated by them.

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Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007

Mary Worth had an illicit affair with Refurb and kidnapped Sophie when she learned the truth. Little did Sophie know, but she was held in Apartment 3G under the watchful eye of The Phantom until Dick Tracy rescued her. Meanwhile, in spite of everything, Working Daze still sucked.


MiddleOne posted:

While Eleanor and Jason both did horrible and/or selfish things to strangers at least they were doing it to strangers. To put things in perspective, Tahani devoted her entire life to upstaging her sister. Chidi is even worse because he hurt everyone who cared and loved for him and to no ones benefit.

It's weird that you're specifically counting intent for one of them and ignoring it for the other. Tahani may have had bad reasons but she did good things. Whereas Chidi may have done bad things but he never intended any harm. And I'm not convinced that doing bad things to a stranger is actually any better (or worse) than doing them to someone you know.

raditts
Feb 21, 2001

The Kwanzaa Bot is here to protect me.

Gaz-L posted:

By that logic, also, Jason's a fundamentally worse person than Eleanor. Eleanor was an inconsiderate, selfish jerk. Jason literally blew up a boat, framed someone for a crime they didn't commit just because he was jealous, and was going to rob a pizza place.

Also, a Bortles fan.

Good Citizen
Aug 12, 2008


Tiggum posted:

It's weird that you're specifically counting intent for one of them and ignoring it for the other. Tahani may have had bad reasons but she did good things. Whereas Chidi may have done bad things but he never intended any harm. And I'm not convinced that doing bad things to a stranger is actually any better (or worse) than doing them to someone you know.

It's an actions-based point system that doesn't count any positive actions done for selfish reasons. The show is pretty explicit about it

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007

Mary Worth had an illicit affair with Refurb and kidnapped Sophie when she learned the truth. Little did Sophie know, but she was held in Apartment 3G under the watchful eye of The Phantom until Dick Tracy rescued her. Meanwhile, in spite of everything, Working Daze still sucked.


Good Citizen posted:

It's an actions-based point system that doesn't count any positive actions done for selfish reasons. The show is pretty explicit about it

Did we ever get that information from anyone trustworthy though? I don't think we have any way of knowing what the real test is.

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.


Grimey Drawer

...I assumed the point system was made up by Michael as part of his fake good place setting... Is there ANY reason to believe it's not?

Good Citizen
Aug 12, 2008


Snak posted:

...I assumed the point system was made up by Michael as part of his fake good place setting... Is there ANY reason to believe it's not?

Just the fact that the 4 main characters are in the bad place and that fits with the formula. Also I guess that Janet never contradicts it

Regy Rusty
Apr 26, 2010



Grimey Drawer

It's hard to say. The only things we can be sure are true are things Janet and Mindy St. Clair told us (plus Mindy's info video). It's not a lot to go on regarding the specifics of the point system. Janet never implies it's not true, but she also was certainly tricked to some extent.

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.


Grimey Drawer

Even if the point system is real, Michael's explanation of it might not be. After all, the whole "let's see how many points you would have earned or whatever" gambit was all fake.

Supercar Gautier
Jun 10, 2006



Snak posted:

...I assumed the point system was made up by Michael as part of his fake good place setting... Is there ANY reason to believe it's not?

If Chidi is marked for eternal torture on the basis of being annoyingly neurotic, then the metric that sorts people into Good/Bad places is hosed up and cruel regardless of how real the points are.

Lycus
Aug 5, 2008

Half the posters in this forum have been made up. This website is a goddamn ghost town.

Were we ever given good deeds done by Chibi in the vein of constantly hearing about Tahani's charity? I'm trying to remember if the show ever really tried to trick us into thinking Chibi wasn't a medium person, since "was an ethics professor" isn't a good deed.

Gobbeldygook
May 13, 2009

Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

Put this racist on ignore immediately!


Lycus posted:

Were we ever given good deeds done by Chibi in the vein of constantly hearing about Tahani's charity? I'm trying to remember if the show ever really tried to trick us into thinking Chibi wasn't a medium person, since "was an ethics professor" isn't a good deed.
No. He wrote a lot about ethics but never actually did anything particularly good and caused a lot of suffering through inaction/inability to make decisions. Where the show diverges from most people's ethical intuitions is that in The Good Place you go to the Bad Place unless you've gone out of your way to do good things for good reasons whereas most people think you should go to the Good Place unless you've done something particularly deserving of punishment.

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.


Grimey Drawer

So I'm rewatching the show from the beginning... In the first episode, right after Eleanor wakes up and has a 1 on 1 with Michael, he takes her out to see a big presentation. The first thing the presentation does is describe the point system for people being sent to the good or bad place. This doesn't mean that the real system doesn't work like that, but it's literally the first big presentation of what turns out to be a huge lie. The entire idea that you are judged at the end of your life based on a numeric sum of your deeds, rather than the person you are at the end of your life is... well it's not great. But it makes sense that someone in Michael's position would think that's a plausible way to do things.

I also noticed that, after Eleanor has confessed to Chidi, she mentions her own parents and says that they were crumby people, so they were probably in the bad place. "I wonder if they are being used to torture each other. It would work..".

This show has officially passed the rewatchability test. Which is no surprise. But it's nice to know, first-hand .

Aerox
Jan 8, 2012


Snak posted:

So I'm rewatching the show from the beginning...

This show has officially passed the rewatchability test. Which is no surprise. But it's nice to know, first-hand .

My favorite part of the rewatch of the first episode is the scene where Tahani is walking down the street, abjectly miserable, while she's surrounded by loving soulmate couples openly expressing affection for each other.

It's masterful.

precision
May 7, 2006

Double great.


Why wasn't there a new episode last night?

e: oh because NBC is forking idiotic and premiered the show on Wednesday even though it's a Thursday show. yeah that totally makes sense.

e2: Episode 4 is called Team Cockroach. Someone is gonna nuke the town.

precision fucked around with this message at Sep 28, 2017 around 07:19

Zaburino
Jul 22, 2006
...

What if the show gets to the point where Michael realizes that our team was way more miserable alive than dead, and restores them back life on earth?

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??


Grimey Drawer

Zaburino posted:

What if the show gets to the point where Michael realizes that our team was way more miserable alive than dead, and restores them back life on earth?

They'll wake up in their coffins, die again, and we start anew.

The Fuzzy Hulk
Nov 22, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT CROSSING THE STREAMS



Did they ever say how Tahani died?

Regy Rusty
Apr 26, 2010



Grimey Drawer

The Fuzzy Hulk posted:

Did they ever say how Tahani died?

No not yet.

Your Taint
Nov 25, 2011

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a shitposter clothed with the sun, and the moon under his feet, and upon his head a crown of twelve cheeses.


MiddleOne posted:

While Eleanor and Jason both did horrible and/or selfish things to strangers at least they were doing it to strangers. To put things in perspective, Tahani devoted her entire life to upstaging her sister. Chidi is even worse because he hurt everyone who cared and loved for him and to no ones benefit.

To me it seems like Chidi had some serious anxiety issues going on which shouldn't condemn you to the Bad Place imo.

precision
May 7, 2006

Double great.


The Fuzzy Hulk posted:

Did they ever say how Tahani died?

It wouldn't work anymore but in season 1 I was thinking that Tahani had died at the same time as her sister and accidentally got her place, which would have been so fitting.

Pope Guilty
Nov 6, 2006

The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.

Your Taint posted:

To me it seems like Chidi had some serious anxiety issues going on which shouldn't condemn you to the Bad Place imo.

Yeah it's hosed up that he went to hell for having a mental illness.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Your Taint posted:

To me it seems like Chidi had some serious anxiety issues going on which shouldn't condemn you to the Bad Place imo.

God is a monster

Pope Guilty
Nov 6, 2006

The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.

MiddleOne posted:

God is a monster

I would love to see this be the direction the show is going, especially with Preacher on the air.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

DON'T LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU INTO THINKING I'M NOT AN INSUFFERABLE AUTIST

They went to the afterlife and became better people, looks like a win for God to me.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Pope Guilty posted:

I would love to see this be the direction the show is going, especially with Preacher on the air.

You think dogs are monsters?

FactsAreUseless
Feb 16, 2011


Your Taint posted:

To me it seems like Chidi had some serious anxiety issues going on which shouldn't condemn you to the Bad Place imo.
Well, it does. Everyone goes to hell. Suck it up, buttercup, that's just how God runs the show.

Lycus
Aug 5, 2008

Half the posters in this forum have been made up. This website is a goddamn ghost town.

Reminder that you only go to the Good Place if you're exceptional. Chibi was a medium person.

LORD OF BOOTY
Feb 11, 2015

THEY MAKE SURE YOU AIN'T BOOTY!!!


I feel like this would basically be a horror series if Michael wasn't kinda incompetent.

So It Goes
Feb 18, 2011


Lycus posted:

Reminder that you only go to the Good Place if you're exceptional. Chibi was a medium person.

But it's called the good place not the exceptionally great place. A truly just god would have at least 5 tiers of places to have better sorting of this stuff.

Lycus
Aug 5, 2008

Half the posters in this forum have been made up. This website is a goddamn ghost town.

So It Goes posted:

But it's called the good place not the exceptionally great place. A truly just god would have at least 5 tiers of places to have better sorting of this stuff.

This system sucks!

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



So It Goes posted:

But it's called the good place not the exceptionally great place. A truly just god would have at least 5 tiers of places to have better sorting of this stuff.

Is it really called 'The Good Place' though? Back in S01E13 that was just the title Michael gave to his proposal. We don't even necessarily know that there is such a thing as a good place, we just know that there are radically different variants of Janet and that Michael & CO aren't shaping them.

IShallRiseAgain
Sep 12, 2008

Well ain't that precious?

MiddleOne posted:

Is it really called 'The Good Place' though? Back in S01E13 that was just the title Michael gave to his proposal. We don't even necessarily know that there is such a thing as a good place, we just know that there are radically different variants of Janet and that Michael & CO aren't shaping them.

Michael explicitly says he stole a good place version of Janet.

Supercar Gautier
Jun 10, 2006



I think the null hypothesis is to assume things work the way we are told they work, until we specifically learn otherwise. The show would become unmoored from any sense of rules or stakes if we couldn't trust our basic understanding of how the Good/Bad places operate.

"The Good Place is real and follows these principles, but the protagonists aren't actually there" is firmer storytelling ground than "Who knows what's true, welcome to Calvinball".

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



I think we can take for granted that anything Michael says after the jig is up is 100% true since he knows he's just going to wipe their minds anyway.

pseudorandom name
May 6, 2007
INSOLENT


Grimey Drawer

The Medium Place was real, no? That implies that there are Good Places and Bad Places and a point system.

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.


Grimey Drawer

I agree with that. I still think it's possible that Michael can't understand the actual method for determining which place people go to, because he doesn't comprehend non-utilitarian ethics, and because he doesn't understand selflessness.

Edit: I don't know how the medium place could possibly have been real, since it was framed as being a compromise between the fake good place and the fake bad place.

Regy Rusty
Apr 26, 2010



Grimey Drawer

Snak posted:

I agree with that. I still think it's possible that Michael can't understand the actual method for determining which place people go to, because he doesn't comprehend non-utilitarian ethics, and because he doesn't understand selflessness.

Edit: I don't know how the medium place could possibly have been real, since it was framed as being a compromise between the fake good place and the fake bad place.

The medium place was absolutely real. Eleanor, Janet, and Jason actually escaped from Michael's ability to monitor them. None of that was an act and it's the best source we have for the truth of how this world works.

Like if you're going to assume that the one time they managed to escape the system, that was never referenced again or stated to be part of the trick, was actually a trick, then we've got nothing to work on whatsoever and there's no point speculating about anything.

In short:

Supercar Gautier posted:

"The Good Place is real and follows these principles, but the protagonists aren't actually there" is firmer storytelling ground than "Who knows what's true, welcome to Calvinball".

Nevvy Z
Jan 3, 2004
'b-b-but it's ephibophilia not pedophilia'

Makes a lot of really bad and gross posts, don't give him the benefit of a doubt.

pseudorandom name posted:

The Medium Place was real, no? That implies that there are Good Places and Bad Places and a point system.

I dunno about the last bit. The point system thing seems very explicitly just a way to gently caress with the humans. I guess there could be a real point system too.

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Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.


Grimey Drawer

Regy Rusty posted:

The medium place was absolutely real. Eleanor, Janet, and Jason actually escaped from Michael's ability to monitor them. None of that was an act and it's the best source we have for the truth of how this world works.

Like if you're going to assume that the one time they managed to escape the system, that was never referenced again or stated to be part of the trick, was actually a trick, then we've got nothing to work on whatsoever and there's no point speculating about anything.

In short:

Oh, I guess you're right. I was trying to remember the videotape they showed at the medium place, and I must have remembered it wrong.

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