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Question Time
Sep 12, 2010



Yeah, I could have been more clear. I hope there is a confrontation between our classic protagonist heroes who do some good but seem to be less effective at confronting true evil, and Marie's antiheroes who commit lots of atrocities but appear to be more effective at actually fighting fascists and slavers.

That's not exactly a fair comparison, because our scooby gang is a lot younger, but I still think it would be interesting.

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Hexenritter
May 20, 2001


I've not been active much in the thread or the channel lately but goddamn this is getting dark. And good. So good. I just marathonned from Julie and Sasha's conversation, which hit me right in the loving feels (which are particularly raw right now due to some personal poo poo I'm having trouble getting past) and then Kendra, poor thing... :(

Ice Phisherman
Apr 12, 2007

Swimming upstream
into the sunset



Julie, Devin, Oli, Tek, Dave, Deondra and Mrs. Klein - Sunday, August 18th, 2075 – Late Morning – Seattle Metroplex

“In Jesus name we pray,” intoned Devin.

“Amen,” said Julie, and a smattering of the crowd.

The common area outside of Devin’s house was packed. It was the only area large enough to hold more than a hundred people in Touristville in one place which meant more would be on the way soon. It was Sunday and that normally meant soup kitchen duty for Julie, impromptu sermons from pastor Devin, empty bellies waiting to be full and general fellowship non-religious and religious both for those getting fed. The communal meal had been a tradition reaching back to the founding of Touristville some five years ago when almost every single resident had been SINless and poor, though attendance had never been this high before.

A hundred eyes looked up at Devin, short for an troll, with bushy black hair and spectacles. He was dressed in a brown cardigan sweater, white polo with tie, black slacks, black tie and black dress shoes. Normally his style of dress wasn’t even this fancy, but today was a special day.

“Thank you all for coming,” said Devin.

There were more grunts and nods at this, Julie’s head nodding along with them as she looked up at Devin, though she had to crane her head. Short for a troll was still taller than any human.

“As you all know,” continued Devin, “Due to the protests, we’re most likely not going to see a lot of tourists today. If today is anything like yesterday, the highways will most likely be stopped again. People are on the march for the three unfortunates who were killed. I would like a moment of silence in their honor if you please.”

He bowed his head and this time, many more of the others did the same, though not all for the slain elves. However, all were silent. Devin lifted his head and so did everyone else who bowed theirs.

“But in this dark time it is important not only to reflect, but to take comfort in one another,” said Devin, as he lifted his voice, “We have food, fellowship and the time to enjoy it.”

“Good food!” shouted a man from the back.

There was some laughter and cheers from all around, everyone joining in now. Hands thumped the tables in joy and feet stomped in assent. The smells emanating from the long tables that were laden with food were tantalizing. The heady aroma of sizzling meat was everywhere. Today, there would be no soup.

“Right you are!” shouted Devin, over the thumps, and then as they quieted he repeated, “Right you are. We’ve had perhaps one of the most generous donations since Marco Ivanoff left us. Julie Freeman...Please, stand up, Julie.”

Anxiously, Julie squeezed out from between Deondra, one of the Touristville militia and fellow church-goer and a man she didn’t know, but felt like she would know soon. People on down the line scooted over on their bench seats to let Julie stand more easily. As Julie stood, clad in a blue dress with large, black buttons, picked out by her friend Justina some months ago, she gave a nervous wave to the crowd and people waved back. Most thumped the tables and stomped their feet even louder, but it was for her. There were even a few wolf whistles from a table full of young men and Julie felt her cheeks heat up. One woman in particular smacked one of the whistlers on the shoulder. People laughed.

“Okay, okay,” said Devin, his voice slightly admonishing, an eye towards the men, "That's quite enough of that."

Devin put a heavy hand on her shoulder.

“As most of you already know because none of you can keep a secret…”

More laughter, conspiratorial winks and nudges were shared.

“Julie here has provided us with a bounty of real food. There is real meat: Pork, chicken, turkey...” said Devin, who called over the cheering, “And! And vegetables of course. We’ve reached into the community coffers for something more than soy, krill and rice products. Potatoes too, I forget that they’re affordable now. Anyway, we put up our share of food to show that we’re all in this together. Real eggs are on the menu too and we’ll be able to stretch it all for each Sunday for the next month.”

There was more thumping, more stomping, more cheering. Julie could swear she felt the stone under her feet shake.

“Now like I said! We’re going to stretch this!” said Devin, who had to shout over the noise, which made it die down a bit, “Not all of your food can be real food, but everyone will have their portion of real meat, eggs and veggies. You’ll also have as much of the regular food as you want. The soykaf is guaranteed to be hot and maybe even drinkable.”

There was some polite laughter at this.

“Now if you want a full share of the...I think it's called an English breakfast," he continued, "Cooked by our friends in the East End who donated their time this morning to help us. If you want a plate full of real meat and vegetables with not a single hint of soy, join up with the dig team. We’ll be expanding the parking lot on the West End and we’ll be taking a few days to mine and smooth it out since the protests are expected to run for...Well, for the foreseeable future.”

Julie noticed a sadness about Devin and she put her hand on his arm. He smiled down at her.

“Would you like to say anything, Julie?” he asked.

Julie panicked. She wasn’t used to talking in front of crowds.

“Um…”

She looked out at all of them and licked her lips.

“Let’s...Eat?” she asked, making it a question.

There was raucous cheering, tables were pounded heartily, the ground definitely shook this time and people got to their feet to go eat. Though only a hundred and change could fit down here in the hall, there were other tables set up further down the halls, though most people would wait to eat. People were taking photos and trideo to share later since the wireless didn’t work down here very well, if at all in most places. Though even now, people were moving back for just long enough to share what had been said to those who couldn’t fit in the hall through peer to peer sharing with their commlinks.

“I need to go serve,” said Julie.

“Oh no,” said Devin, his tone jovial, “You stay right here. I’ll go and get you something before I start making my rounds. Do you want the English breakfast or an omelette?”

Julie smiled but shook her head in disagreement.

“I’ll only have something small, but I need to go serve, Devin,” she said, “There’s no point in all of this unless I’m involved. Could you help me get to the table? It’s pretty packed.”

Devin sighed at first, but then he beamed at her and nodded.

“Okay then, I’ll help you to the front," he said, "But I might get sidetracked. Fair warning."

The going was slow. Not because Devin had to push his way through the crowd. Despite his size he had a way of negotiating through crowds that Julie wished she had. No, he was slow because occasionally someone would stop him to talk. He was about his business as pastor today so he did have to work that small portion of the crowd that attended his church. Eventually, someone needed him for more time than she had patience for and she had to push on without him.

As she made her way to the front, still in her dress, because she figured rightly that getting home to change into something that could get stained by food would be a pain, she donned her apron and began piling food onto plates just as she always did. Today, her community would eat their portion of real food and it was food that she’d provided.

The English breakfast, also called a fry up or the Full Monty as she’d been told, consisted of sausages, bacon, eggs, halved tomatoes with salt and pepper, cooked just enough to give them color, mushrooms, beans, toast and some round, black things called black pudding, though most people passed on that. Spices and sauces were provided to keep the food from being bland. All the food had been fried at some point, making it easy to cook in large quantities, save for the tomatoes, which had only been seared long enough to give them color.

Strong tea was on hand, called a builder’s tea, traditional for the meal which had surprisingly come out of the East End for some reason, but most people reached for the soykaf out of habit or just soymilk. There was also orange juice from concentrate that had been intended for kids. Though as it turned out, there were a fair portion of kids of all ages, including those with grey or non-existent hair, who insisted on the orange juice. Julie worried that it would run out before everyone was fed, though it didn't keep her from pouring some OJ for herself.

The line moved slowly and the thanks kept pouring on her. She had to disable the AURS app notifications for raises in her reputation as it had become distracting. There was a warmth that filled her belly and heated her cheeks that she was hard pressed to find anywhere else. A smile that she couldn’t keep off her face. This was why she volunteered. Not for the reputation. She still didn’t know what to do with it other than eating at restaurants or getting the occasional piece of clothing. No, she did it because it made her feel good. Also because it was part of her spiritual training, but that was harder to put into words.

There were also a number of eggs dishes, though those took time to cook and Julie wasn't involved with those. When everyone in the area had been served, Julie asked her and received an omelette. She’d been worrying about her weight lately and almost asked for only a simple, two egg omelette with nothing inside, but remembered that she was going to a protest today. That probably meant a lot of walking, so she chose the omelette and though she felt guilty, had sausage, tomatoes, mushrooms and soy cheese folded into hers.

“Thank you very much for the food, Ms. Freeman,” said the cook, “I can’t remember the last time I had real meat that wasn’t from restaurant leftovers.”

She was a matronly, older woman with a warm smile, dark skin and long, braided hair that was in a net. Julie’s heart hurt as she was reminded of her mother for some reason. She hadn’t seen her since everything changed- Since she changed.

“You’re welcome,” she said, quickly.

“Would you like anything else?”

“Oh, I’m not sure…” said Julie, hesitantly.

The older woman smiled knowingly, as Julie hadn’t left yet. So she piled a few extra sausages on the side of her plate, two rashers of bacon and half a tomato.

“I’m going to blow my diet,” she said, nervously.

That was when the woman stopped piling food on the plate, tongs outstretched to grasp more food.

“Working people need to eat,” said the woman, critically, but kindly.

“I guess so,” said Julie.

She really did appreciate the extra food.

“I know so,” said the woman, who gestured at herself, “And this working woman needs to eat too. You need anything before I go? I’ll let the people coming for seconds fend for themselves.”

Julie hesitated, feeling silly, but she hadn't seen her favorite sauce among the pile of spices and sauces.

“Do you have any Tabasco sauce?” asked Julie.

The older woman smiled knowingly, went to the end of the table, reached under it and produced a small bottle of the stuff.

“Pastor Devin told me you might want some and I didn’t want anyone to snatch it so I put it aside,” she said, “No need to thank me. Now I’m going to make up my own plate and find my family. You go have fun and if someone doesn’t make room for you, you give them the old elbow treatment, yeah?”

Julie giggled and nodded.

“Oh yeah, that’s me, always throwing my weight around,” she said, sarcastically.

The older woman laughed as she piled food on her own plate. They made their goodbyes and Julie belatedly forgot that she hadn’t asked her name as she walked away. She looked back, fretting that she’d done something wrong. However, an idea hit her. She checked her smart glasses and through that, the AURS application.

She set down her plate on a nearby table. People stared at her, making noises in her direction, but she only paid enough attention to feel self-conscious, as was usual. She mumbled commands that activated her smart glasses and the cursor tracked her eye movements as she began to dig through the AURS files, which was harder than it seemed because people kept giving her more reputation every second. But there she was with her picture and reputation scores near her name, the woman who'd made an omelette just for her, gave her food she'd feel too embarrassed to ask for on her own and of course, put aside Tobasco sauce just for her. Her name was Sarah Klein. Julie fumbled with the controls and decided to give her reputation a boost too, something she hadn’t really done much before, but eventually she figured it out.

Julie wanted to go find her, but realized that it wasn’t her she wanted to go with. Not really. She missed her family, even if the rest of her family that weren’t her dad had abandoned her. And her dad…Julie wrestled with thoughts of him. For some reason he'd been on her mind more often. Even among all the levity and joy, Julie quietly dealt with her pain rather than pushing it aside. She took her time, went through some breathing exercises that her therapist, Mr. Brand, had taught her and coped in what she’d learned was a healthy way. A moment set aside to reflect instead of deflect.

Time passed and when she looked up, no one was staring and no one was asking if she was okay. They were involved in their own conversations, that web of relationships that were reinforced and maintained at events just like this. People laughing, telling stories, visiting with family and friends.

What was curious were the occasional set of raised hands. She’d noticed it before, but hadn’t thought much of it. There was no government down here save for self-government, community government. She’d always thought of voting as something that one did every four years and if she stretched her mind, every two for off year elections, not that she could vote. Things were different here. Voting wasn’t about elections once every few years. Creating consent among the community was fairly constant, though it was kept out of the eyes of the tourists as many wouldn’t understand, but it was on display here. Those raised hands, that consent, was much of what kept the community healthy. Those eggs, she imagined, that willingness to match her donation, had certainly been voted on as well.

She came back to her seat. It was gone, but Deondra was there who also looked up.

“I’ll...Uh...Find another seat,” said Julie.

“Screw that,” said Deondra, who turned her head and called down the line, “Hey! Scoot down!”

People looked at Deondra, then to Julie from their places at the long table and after realizing who was shouting and why, they scooted and made room for her. Feeling anxious, Julie squeezed back in. She didn't know these people and had only sat with Deondra because Julie knew her from church.

“Thanks,” said Julie.

“You’re welcome. Thanks for the grub,” said Deondra, “Haven’t had real food in a while.”

There was assent from people around her, nodded heads from those chewing, thanks from those who’d swallowed.

“Everyone should have real food,” said Julie, “I’m spoiled on it from school and I wanted everyone to enjoy it. When I inherited the soup kitchen from Marco, I wanted to make sure no one went hungry.”

There were more nods, smiles and generally assent from the crowd.

“Yeah, well, no one goes hungry down here,” she said, “At least not anymore. Things used to be tight, but now they’re looking up. We’ve never been so busy, well at least until lately, but it’s been nice to have some days off.”

Julie smiled, understanding the sentiment. She wasn’t alone either.

“Haven’t had a day off in a week,” said one.

“Look at this guy, just a week,” sassed another, albeit playfully.

“I feel like all I do is go to school and work,” said Julie, “But since school is out, all I do is work.”

Julie realized that she actually had been away lately, but no one was crass enough to note that she’d been out on leave for mental health. Then, realizing that most of these people were SINless, Julie realized that most of them had probably never been to school either. Public services, bare as they were, were for citizens. No one said anything about that either.

“I haven’t had a day off in two weeks,” complained Deondra, “Wait, I thought your little spirit friend was helping you out with that. I see him around on nights.”

“He is,” said Julie, “I’m going to take a few days off pretty soon. Pastor Devin told me that it’s going to be a slow day today so I’ll have most of it to myself.”

Deondra was bumped from behind and shot that someone a dirty look. He apologized and she grunted.

“Friends are good,” said Deondra, turning back to Julie, “I feel like I haven’t seen my boyfriend in a week and we live together. Where is Chip anyway?”

Julie concentrated and tried to feel out for Chip. He was down the hall a ways and she could feel him in his happy gluttony as he ate new food to experience it. As he noticed her attention, he gave her the emotional equivalent of a wave and she gave him one back.

“He’s eating,” said Julie.

“Good day for it,” said Deondra, “Wait, spirits eat food?”

Julie lifted her hand and wobbled it back and forth.

“Sort of,” she said, “He doesn’t have taste buds so it’s more like he experiences the food. I don’t know where it goes after he eats it though. He doesn’t gain any weight.”

“What a shame,” drawled Deondra.

“Right?” asked Julie, “I need to go hiking. I gained two pounds.”

“I gain two pounds and my boyfriend loves it,” snarked Deondra, “It hits the hips and thighs on me...Uh...The weight that is.”

Some of the guys around her laughed. Deondra rolled her eyes as one of them spoke up.

“Hey D,” called one of the men, “You let me know if he’s not fully appreciating your hips and thighs, because I sure will."

There was some hooting and laughter from the men and Julie realized that she’d seen some of these people before. These were Touristville militia, or at least some of them. Deondra made a show of looking him up and down even though they were both sitting.

“I’ve seen you in the showers,” she said, her voice deadpan, “And brother, your rear end is just too fat for me. These hips and thighs kill lesser men.”

There were roars of laughter, people leaning on one another. One man literally poked the speaker’s belly. It was true. He was pretty fat.

“Besides, we’ve got ourselves a lady present,” continued Deondra, “You animals tone it down.”

There were some oooo’s and Julie was starkly reminded of high school, though most of the militia were older than teenagers, some much older.

“It’s okay,” said Julie, “I don’t mind.”

“I do,” said Deondra, “I don’t need my body as the topic of discussion today. Especially not with these savages.”

“I’m a sensitive soul,” said one, with mock piety, hand over his heart, fork clutched, half eaten sausage speared, “I could compose a poem or two. You’d fall for my rhymes.”

“Fall for your rhymes?" she sassed, "The way I heard it, people don't fall for your rhymes. They trip and die."

More laughter.

“Don’t be like that. My rhymes are for the people,” he quipped, not as easily defeated, “No woman alive can resist them.”

Julie lifted an eyebrow at Deondra, wondering if this was normal and how she might help her out. So she spoke up.

“So why don’t you give us one?” asked Julie, doing her best to be sweet, “Maybe something about me.”

The man opened and closed his mouth like a fish, blushed and cleared his throat as Julie stared him down with a smile. The seconds stretched and he tried to buy time by taking a drink of his soykaf.

“Go on,” encouraged Julie, “I’ll wait. I promise I won't trip and die.”

There were snickers of laughter as the assembled militia members looked to the would be poet. Julie put her elbows on the table and propped her chin delicately on the heels of her hands, careful not to smudge her makeup. He eventually wilted, shoulders slumping and averted his eyes. People laughed as he silently admitted defeat and he was playfully shoved from multiple directions.

“His rhymes are only good for bathroom stalls,” mocked one of the militia members, and then he turned to her with a fatherly smile, “You’re too good for his nonsense, Miss Julie.”

“Uh...Thank you,” said Julie, a little hesitantly.

The fatherly smile hurt to look at, but her being told that she was good, even too good, made her feel warm inside. She wasn’t used to compliments, even rough ones.

As the conversation pivoted away from her, Julie took a moment to eat, sprinkling some Tabasco sauce onto her food. The orange juice helped cut the heat and she sipped lightly to keep from ruining her palette, so each time she took a bite was a new pleasure. In minutes her plate was clear and she kept sipping at her juice. People left, others rolled in to sit down with fresh plates of food.

“Want some more juice?” asked Deondra.

“I might get some milk,” said Julie, “In a bit. I’m taking it slow. I don't want to overeat.”

Deondra nodded, but Julie sensed a question.

“What is it?” asked Julie.

“Oh, just…” began Deondra, who puffed out her cheeks, “You know, this is a lot of money to drop on us. It’s nice, don’t get me wrong. Marco did it, but...He was different, you know? He had money. I just hope you’re not breaking the bank.”

Julie smiled and shrugged.

“I’m doing okay,” she said.

“Well everyone is doing okay lately,” she said, “Marco would do this sometimes, but like I said, he came from money. Nothing against him, I wouldn’t be here without him. You don’t come from money though. Just making sure you're not bleeding yourself dry. This is a lot of people to feed.”

Julie thought about how to put it. The question wasn’t where the money had come from, which was a relief since it had come from capturing Pinchface. Not all of it, not even half. Just ten percent. It was her idea of a tithe. Still, she was wondering what to do with the rest of it. She couldn’t call it a tithe though as it might make people curious. Julie wasn't a very good liar.

“I’ve been reading a lot lately,” said Julie, contemplatively, “Old testament stuff. Some of it stuck with me. Some of it I didn’t want to stick with me. You know, the misogyny.”

“The what?” asked Deondra.

“Sorry, the woman hating stuff.”

Deondra pulled a face and nodded in understanding.

“But there’s some other stuff in there. Specifically about wealth,” said Julie, thoughtfully, “How it’s not just some pile that you sit on. It’s an obligation to other people. A burden. Every time people forget that, everyone suffers. Right now I should be working on improving my magic like everyone else, but I thought I'd um...Test my limits in other ways.”

“I don’t think I’ve ever heard of someone’s money talked about like it was an obligation.”

“Well it’s what I’ve been reading lately.”

Deondra looked down at her empty plate, took a sip of her soykaf and nodded to herself.

“So what, you’re practicing your healing?” asked Deondra.

“Well, yes and no,” said Julie, “I am practicing, but that’s not what I’m talking about. I asked my guardian, Julian, if I could try fasting. My magic is particularly powerful and it takes a long time to raise. It’d take months of isolation, fasting and prayer to really see a difference in my magic. Or I'd have to basically reintroduce myself to the food chain for a while, live what you might call naturally. I don't really have those skills yet. Either way, I’d have to do nothing else all of that time. I don’t have time for that. I can't just disappear into the woods. Also Julian said that I shouldn’t be fasting at my age. So I started looking for alternatives.”

“Like what?”

“Well, fasting is about sacrifice,” explained Julie, “Self-denial. I’m not allowed to deny myself food, not even a little unless it’s for a diet. A lot of my reading lately concerns what is owed to other people if I have much and others don't. I tried to think about sacrifice, about self-denial, obligation and burden. I thought that I’d tie all of that together and it took me a long time to grasp this. I wasn't raised this way. I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. Anyway, so if I was denying myself food, it’d still be in my fridge, but that’s not enough. I have obligation to others and that means that I can't just look inwards.”

Julie stared into the distance, the murmurs of the crowd fell away as she contemplated.

“Obligation, burden, self-denial and sacrifice,” she explained, quietly, “To nurture myself, I nurture others. The burden is my wealth. I have much, others do not and that creates an imbalance that must be corrected or I risk becoming a hoarder and worse. That would risk stunting my spiritual growth. If it goes on for long enough, from my reading, it creates suffering too. For myself, yes, but more importantly, others. But I guess you could look anywhere in the metroplex to see that looks like.”

Deondra's stare grew harder, more serious and she nodded slowly. Julie wasn't fully paying attention, for this was an introspective moment and she was wrapped up tightly in herself. It was difficult for Julie to put into words, so she hesitated before continuing.

“My obligation is the money which I earned with the help of the community. I wouldn’t be here without the people of this community. So my sacrifice is to the community. I feed others and they in turn create community, which I rely on. The imbalance is satisfied by restoration. The act of fasting is not to starve myself, which I’m not allowed to do. So instead I ritualize that self-denial. I offer up a substitute. Not denial of my body, but denial of my wealth. I give away what I could potentially use for selfish purposes and it had to be from my hands. I’ll never eat what is eaten by others, so my fasting is symbolic.”

Julie came back to her senses, focus no longer directed inwards. She smiled at Deondra, feeling a little anxious and a little silly. There was a look of quiet amazement on Deondra’s features.

“Does that make sense?” asked Julie, hesitantly.

“I think so," said Deondra, "So it's what...Charity?"

"No," said Julie, "It's what I think is owed. My obligation to everyone. Charity is optional. I don't see this as optional. My money isn't handed out from above, setting myself apart from others. By feeding people directly, I try not to put myself above others. Instead I try to be of service. My money, my powers, my training, it does set me apart, but even that obligates me to help. Charity would set me apart from others in what I view as a negative way. Service on the other hand helps keep me grounded as a part of the community instead of above it."

Deondra nodded to herself.

"That’s just...Wow, I’ve never heard anyone talk like that before. Not even Marco, or at least not in a way that I really got. No one with money.”

"Never?"

Deondra shook her head.

"Never. I know some tourists. They're well to do. Some of them. They'll talk about charity, they give, not as much anymore since we're doing okay now, but there was a lot more of that when we were starting out. They talk about giving in a different way than you do."

Julie thought about that.

“It’s what Marco did, or tried to do,” said Julie, “I don't know if he explained it though. I used to think that he wasted a lot of money. I remember those cookies he’d bring with the spells well...Heh...Baked in. I asked him how much they cost one day and well...It was a lot. Or maybe it seemed like a lot at the time. I can't remember how much it costs now, only the feeling.”

Julie felt bad when she thought about her ex-boyfriend. She wanted to call him and apologize for how she had treated him, but every day it felt harder to say she was sorry. Last she heard, he was studying at the University of Washington as he’d decided to stay local instead of attending some ivy league school back in the eastern parts of the UCAS.

“It was the preservatives in them,” she said, “To make the spells last longer and be self-sustaining so he could bring more. They didn’t cost enough to justify bringing in another healer, but it was still a lot. There were better, more efficient ways to do what he did and he probably wouldn’t have been so tired after making so many, because he made all of them himself. With love, I think. With care. When I think about his efforts in terms of obligation and self-sacrifice, I think I understand him more.”

Again, Julie pulled further out of her introspective state of mind. Thinking about Marco had pulled her fully back into reality. The world seemed to expand just from just Deondra, who'd Julie had been focused on. Around her, people were talking, joking, visiting, plates were being scraped, but here, at this table, people had overheard. People were staring at her. This portion of the Touristville militia, some fifteen in all, stared at Julie Freeman. That rough camaraderie was gone for the moment. So was the teasing. That quiet respect was shared among them. A few of them wiped at their eyes.

Julie looked down at her plate, suddenly feeling very shy. Deondra placed a hand lightly on her shoulder.

“Thank you,” said Deondra, her voice roughened with emotion, but still gentle and sweet, "I mean it. Thanks."

There were nods. Nothing more. It was simple gratitude, but genuine. Julie’s throat felt too tight to speak.

--

Minimum rolls here. Julie rolls intimidation against the poet, 11 dice to 10. 4 hits to 3, she shut him down.

Deondra rolls...I'll say 6 dice if she and the rest of the T-Ville militia understand what Julie is talking about when she talks about obligation, burden, sacrifice and self-denial. 3 hits, they understand and are quietly amazed. Hearing about money as an obligation and burden instead of capital to generate more capital for its own sake is alien to them. Most of these people are former homeless or the equivalent of early industrial mill workers. The T-Ville militia are mostly former gang members as well. So they are not used to money being talked about in this way. Money was always used to get something, not talked about in restorative terms or as a sacrifice.

Julie has been reading the bible and has been taking pieces from it that have encouraged her towards charity. Specifically the old testament as she’s been reading from cover to cover. She’s viewing her newfound wealth as a burden and obligation towards others in her community rather than using it solely to generate more capital at the expense of everyone else. In this case, the charity is given to the community to help rejuvinate the community rather than laundering her guilt as this was the money that came from Pinchface. She sees this part of it as a kind of tithe, but is also very serious about her spiritual growth.

Also she’s been toying with the idea of giving away food that is hers (what she purchased) as a kind of fasting which is located in Isiah. Somewhere, can't remember, didn't take detailed notes. It’s not just about ritually denying herself food, but to give away food that she was going to eat, because it seems to me that it’s more of a sacrifice to give away food if you’re hungry rather than ritually starving yourself, but leaving the food in the fridge for later. She’s not there quite yet, as I’m not either, but I’m interested in researching the topic. And it seems something along the lines of, “How do you ritualistically purify yourself if you are wealthy as opposed to someone who is a poor ascetic? What more is required?”

There will be a vote for the next update. Already statted it out and it's pretty whoa. Interesting rolls triggered something early and I had to talk to my share of people to try and get the subject right, as it's pretty sensitive. Positive all around though, so I hope I do it justice. And what a few of you noticed in book five will make sense in retrospect.

Anyway, this contemplation has taken place over...Just counted, thirty episodes of the Sunday School Dropouts podcast, so probably something like 28 hours of listening over the last month and a half. All for fun, not for the book, even that's a lot for me, but I enjoy the commentary and thoughtfulness among the snark. And I've been taking my time to mull over the concepts that were introduced to me.

Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 10:05 on Mar 14, 2020

Gun Jam
Apr 11, 2015

Ice Phisherman posted:

“Now kike I said! We’re going to stretch this!” said Devin
...

Ice Phisherman
Apr 12, 2007

Swimming upstream
into the sunset




Oh wow, ack. Apologies. Like I said, not...Yeah. :(

This is what makes it past my editing process at one in the morning when one letter is next to the other on the keyboard. I'm not trying to make slurs against people. :(

I feel bad.

Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Sep 13, 2019

JUST MAKING CHILI
Feb 14, 2008
This last update actually got me misty after Julie’s monologue. I knew that was a typo not on purpose.

Dr Subterfuge
Aug 31, 2005

TIME TO ROC N' ROLL
Julie's awkwardness definitely makes those moments when she isn't too self-conscious extra sweet.

Ice Phisherman posted:

“It was the preservatives in them,” he said, “To make the spells last longer so he could bring more.

Minor typo. he said should be she said.

I knew the other thing was a typo. Don't sweat it too much.

Chatrapati
Nov 6, 2012
Wow, I feel like you did your research for this update. It's very impressive, and it feels quite authentic. I've read a few of the Jesus stories in the Bible, and I thought they were really nice fables, and I can understand why people would be attracted to live their lives like his. Didn't know there were any nice ones in the old testament though, I always presumed it was fire and brimstone stuff. It's interesting that Julie is using Christianity to support herself, it contrasts with the other characters who rely much more heavily on their relationships with each other. Not to say that Julie isn't relying on that kind of thing, but I like that she's found other empowering routes that seem to more-suit her character. I think that being part of a larger collective is nice and easy if you're not usually socially inclined because you're not necessarily required to contribute socially (through talking and stuff).

Gun Jam
Apr 11, 2015
Yeah, could guess 'twas a typo. Still an unfortunate one.

Ice Phisherman
Apr 12, 2007

Swimming upstream
into the sunset



Chatrapati posted:

Wow, I feel like you did your research for this update. It's very impressive, and it feels quite authentic. I've read a few of the Jesus stories in the Bible, and I thought they were really nice fables, and I can understand why people would be attracted to live their lives like his. Didn't know there were any nice ones in the old testament though, I always presumed it was fire and brimstone stuff. It's interesting that Julie is using Christianity to support herself, it contrasts with the other characters who rely much more heavily on their relationships with each other. Not to say that Julie isn't relying on that kind of thing, but I like that she's found other empowering routes that seem to more-suit her character. I think that being part of a larger collective is nice and easy if you're not usually socially inclined because you're not necessarily required to contribute socially (through talking and stuff).

Most world religions concern themselves with debt in some way. Living ones, dead ones, not all, but most. What is owed to the gods? What is owed to those above you? Below you? To your family? Economics, debt and how those are squared, if ever, are of incredible importance in religion. This is not always framed in terms of money because we're talking about religion, but there are certainly forms of debt and obligation that tie one to religion. I'd have to do more research, but in "Debt: The First 5000 Years" the author talks about how religions concerned themselves with debt to say, the universe for example. And you satisfied that debt through sacrifice of one sort or the other. Original sin and forgiveness through Christ was also mentioned through the lens of debt and forgiveness.

A lot of that was beyond me and I'd need to do a lot more digging to come to anything satisfying on that front. Food for thought though.

However, the old testament was extremely varied in its telling. At the moment I'm up to Daniel, which I believe is one of the last books of the old testament. The ten commandments for example, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife" is how we talk about that particular commandment today. However, in its original context it has a different meaning.

"You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Women were property of men. No woman belonged to herself if there was a male blood relative in charge of her and if there wasn't, it would almost always be bad for the woman as that meant she was probably homeless and penniless. So in this context, not coveting your neighbor's possessions included his wife because at the time, a man could sell their possessions, including women and children, into slavery. Not coveting your neighbor's property was about not only not seeking to buy your neighbor's stuff, which included human beings, but the desire to do so at all was considered sinful. The act of buying your neighbor's family and property (which were basically the same thing at the time) were seen as extremely disruptive to the social fabric of the community.

But there was also talk about social obligation. The bonds that we have to one another. In the book of Ruth for example, people who were destitute could "glean" the fields. Most people were subsistence farmers and there were landless, destitute people. You left some food in the fields for them. A kind of bronze age social welfare system. So someone could pick through the fields and gather what food they could. In the story it was wheat, and Ruth and the other woman with her, whose name escaped me, grabbed...I think it was fourteen liters of wheat, which they made into bread to eat.

The farmer has an obligation to landless, destitute people.

Also in the book of Ruth, the farmer whose land the women gleaned was a "kinsman redeemer". And specifically Ruth's kinsman. It was his job to make sure that land stayed in the extended kinship family. To buy back people who had gone into slavery. To look out for his kin, basically. He had an obligation to his kin as redeemer and Ruth and the other woman were able to take advantage of that in order to marry off the other woman to this kinsman redeemer (her daughter in law) and Ruth got in on the deal even though she couldn't have any more children.

What was extremely interesting was in the book of Job. When God refunded Job's possessions, he gave back double. In Rabbinic law, that's what a thief does and I very much doubt that is a coincidence. Everything was given back double. Not the kids, but he just had double the amount of kids. He didn't get back double slaves though, or if he did, that was omitted. The story of Job is extremely old and the concept of God back then was starkly different than our concept of God now. And in culture, I see this actually positively. Again, from my studies, this is something that religions grapple with. The idea that bad things can happen to good people. That your sinfulness, or whatever analogue there is, doesn't influence your life. Bad things happen to good people. Bad things happen to bad people. Good things happen to bad people. Good things happen to good people. And so on. It is the grappling with this fundamental concept of arbitrariness that I view as a stepping stone to a religion "growing up", to keep it simple.

I actually see religious ideas like the prosperity gospel as a kind of cultural and religious devolution. The unwillingness to accept the arbitrary. Making God into what's basically a magic spell. Give the con-artist pastor what's called "seed money" and you too can be rich! It asserts that poor people are bad and evil, rich people are righteous and moral. So long as you donate of course, or don't. And it creates a religious hierarchy around money. I've heard it compared to a kind of reassertion of the religious philosophy like the divine right of kings. Rich people are good and should be in charge. Poor people are bad, but can be good if they just donate to this pastor, who can of course give that money to God. How you ask? Why, by buying a private jet plane!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiHghDYvpBU

God loves jet planes you see. Almost as much as foot baths.

So the story of Job is in part about economics, what has been taken, what is owed, grappling with the arbitrary nature of the world. How God is not particularly concerned with justice, or at least human concepts of justice.

Fire and brimstone is a go to for a lot of preachers, pastors, priests, what have you. I view that as fear used by authoritarians to keep their flock obedient and cohesive. But to talk about debt and obligation in the biblical sense? You might think of usury. You're not supposed to loan money at interest to the poor and not supposed to act as a creditor, which would mean that you're not allowed to extract the money through say, violence or slavery for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury#Judaism

This comes from the old testament again. And while Jews could lend money to non-Jews, they were strict prohibitions on lending in a predatory way to others Jews. This was violated fairly regularly from what I read because in...I want to say Isiah, before the Babylonian captivity, Isiah was saying that God would spare them from the captivity if only they did a few things, one of which was for Jews to release their Jewish slaves. That didn't happen.

There is also the parable of the talent from the new testament. The short of this is that someone who invests wisely is rewarded, but the "unfaithful servant" who buries his money and plays it safe is a bad person. Sitting on piles of Scrooge MacDuck money seems to be sinful in both tellings. And I don't think billionaires who just sit on their money and let it stack up higher and higher would be seen as good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parab...ed%20to%20them.

But we don't talk about that. Christianity turning its collective attention towards millionaires and billionaires, the people with MacDuck money, would be extremely difficult, especially in our hyper-capitalist environment. Like the faithless servant, these people bury their money and sit on it.

I could go on, but I won't for much longer. Someone who is just doing fire and brimstone retellings is a hack and a fraud. They use fear to extract money and obedience. They rely on people never actually reading the bible so they can accomplish this task more easily.

In actuality, large parts of the bible is nuanced and interesting, written by hundreds of hands over thousands of years, at least for the old testament. There's a lot of neat poetry in there. A lot of grappling with questions we're still grappling with today. There are also endless genealogies (the begats), the misogyny, the repeated, seriously uncomfortable talk about genocide, murder, rape, theft and the oft repeated calls to tell people not to worship deities other than God. Like when Moses came down off the mountain, saw people worshipping Baal, split them into two groups and specifically told them to seek out their kin and slay them, then just loving slay everyone. Really dark poo poo that's not making it into the Prince of Egypt or the Veggie Tales version of the bible.

JUST MAKING CHILI
Feb 14, 2008
Ruth was the daughter in law, Naomi was the other woman, and the mother in law. I remember this because my grandmas name was Naomi and her mother in law was Ruth and we joked about them getting it backwards when I was little. Good memory otherwise! And Daniel is the last of OT before you reach a bunch of short books of minor prophets.

JUST MAKING CHILI fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Sep 14, 2019

Ice Phisherman
Apr 12, 2007

Swimming upstream
into the sunset



Just a head's up. There's some bodily autonomy stuff in this update that might make you squeamish.

--

Julie, Devin and Krupa - Sunday, August 18th, 2075 – Early afternoon – Seattle Metroplex

Sundays at the doctor’s office always started late. Odd for a twenty-four hour metroplex like Seattle, but church was the only time that Julie couldn’t paper over her problems with work. Devin had never let her.

Devin sat in his big chair, steaming cup of soykaf in hand, the mug enormous, but only when it was away from his equally enormous hands, like it was a magic trick. Krupa leaned over, nose bent in the AR files for the incoming patients like someone might bury their nose in a book. Julie turned on her own AR glasses and read over the patients for today.

“Just three patients for today,” said Devin, “All in the next two hours too. I might get a day off for once. I’ll send word through the community and see if anyone has any aches or pains.”

“I doubt it,” said Julie, “Chip has been sending people here early now that he’s working nights.”

“Maybe we should tell the guides that we have space open?” he asked, “Grab some people?”

“What people?” she asked, “It seems like most of Seattle is going to the protest, getting to work early or staying home..”

Devin grinned and shrugged.

“I feel odd not working,” he said.

“Me too.”

Krupa’s stayed silent, her gaze intense on something she was reading in AR, though Julie took no note.

“Let’s see who’s here for today,” said Devin, “Complaints about an ache in the foot, chronic headache and lastly, a physical. It seems fairly straightforward. Only the last is a new patient. We’ll review their medical history.”

Krupa cleared her throat. Julie and Devin turned to her.

“I think,” she began, slowly, “That I need to go.”

She stood up and Julie.

“What?” asked Julie, “What’s wrong?”

“What’s the matter Miss Patel?” asked Devin.

Krupa shook her head, unwilling to answer. Though she turned to Julie.

“I’ll see you later today,” she said, her features carefully composed, “Saanvi and I will be available around one. I need to go though. Bye.”

She pulled off her white coat and put it on a hook as she left Julie’s doctor’s office. Devin frowned heavily.

“I don’t understand,” he said.

“I don’t either,” said Julie.

Julie spent a minute thinking about what had happened, but couldn’t find anything until she read over the names of the patients on her medical chart. Her eyebrows climbed as she read a name. There was no picture on the file, but she checked his bio. Race: Elf. Age: Sixteen. Skin tone: Pale. Hair: Red.

“Joyce Sartel,” said Julie.

“Do you know him?” asked Julie.

“He goes to my school,” she said, “I don't know him much, but he’s Krupa’s fiance’.”

Devin’s face softened for a moment, but as Julie’s didn’t, he frowned again.

“I take it this is some school trouble?” he asked.

Julie shrugged one shoulder, but she trusted Devin. She could tell him a piece of what happened.

“He abused one of my friends,” she explained, “That friend of mine, he forgave Joyce, or at least I think he did. I don’t really know how it was related, or if it was, but Joyce and Krupa are taking a break right now.”

Devin put down his soykaf cup with a clunk and turned to her, fingers steepled.

“Julie, is Krupa in trouble?” he asked, seriously.

Her first thought was to protect Devin from this. She remembered Minuet and the kind of trouble that one of the children of the ultra rich and connected could cause for someone. However, that probably wouldn’t work on Devin until he was satisfied that she was safe. Devin was that kind of person.

So Julie wracked her brains for details about Joyce. Any details, any conversation, something about him that might give her insight. She almost cast her spell on herself to improve her logic, but before that happened, she remembered. Something offhand Kenji had said around the lunch table after he’d joined Julian’s class on spirit mentors. Joyce’s spirit mentor was Dove. Then she wracked her brain for what that meant, hours spent poring over books in her free time. Then she remembered, and shook her head.

“His spirit mentor is Dove,” she explained, “Dove’s core value is peace, so I don’t think so.”

Devin relaxed a fraction, nodded seriously and rubbed his chin as grabbed his mug again.

“I remember meeting someone like that,” he mused, “So I know a little. This man, he tried to deflect, but eventually he admitted that his spirit mentor was Fire Bringer. I was worried for his soul as there are many negative connotations with fire in Christianity. So I misunderstood at first, but we walked through the theology and symbolism together and I came to believe that he was not demon influenced or possessed.”

“They exist though,” said Julie.

“Of course,” he said.

“I mean, I’ve never seen one, but I know they exist,” she said, “There are magic traditions of all kinds. I saw Marco summon an angel once, though I’m not sure if it really was one or if it’s more complicated than that. So I suppose someone could summon a demon.”

Devin’s face soured, but he grew contemplative.

“Living in a world with spirits that one can physically see is theologically difficult for me. I’m told there was a time where people saw spirits, angels and demons and were either called crazy or mediums. It’s hard to imagine a time before that. When I was growing up, I knew many who thought all who used magic and all spirits and spells were literal demons from hell, but that’s what they said about me when I was growing up as well.”

Devin drew a finger across one of his horns.

“The world changed,” he said, “At one point, there were only humans and no magic. Then it all seemed to burst forth a few years after the new millennium. New races, magic, these spirits of yours...I forget, are they considered gods by you?”

Julie snorted out a laugh, which caused Devin’s briefly serious face to soften.

“No,” she said, “Kenji explained it to me. My friend. He follows Dog and he’s new to it all, but he’s getting a grip on it. Dog can’t even talk to him with words. There’s no wish for worship. They’re like...Really old teachers.”

“I thought magic was considered new,” said Devin.

“Well it is,” she said, “But one theory is that these spirits always been among us, just muted or hard to talk to, like you said. Some people do actually believe that they’re gods, but I don’t. Some people believe that they’re not real, that they’re figments of the imagination. I'm not so sure about that either.”

“I checked to see if there are religious services,” said Devin, “There are a few for the mentors.”

“Small ones, huh? Really tiny?”

Devin grunted in agreement.

“Kenji explained that to me as well,” she said, “Worship doesn’t do anything for them. What stands out is behavior. They don’t want worship, but they are attracted to people who behave in certain ways. They’re extremists, people who believe in a concept that the spirits embody so totally that they attract the spirit’s attention. I actually saw it when it happened to Kenji, how something reached out to him.”

"A dream?" asked Devin, surprised.

“No, a vision,” said Julie, “I thought he was having a seizure or worse. It turns out that Kenji caught Dog’s attention instead. You have to choose to be taught by one and when Dog reached out, Kenji chose him. Those places that are um...Churches? They're faking. I'm guessing some sort of scam.”

“I’m well used to the concept of religious grifting, Julie.”

“Really?”

Devin quirked a funny little smile, drank his soykaf and nodded emphatically.

“Oh yeah,” he said, and cleared his throat, “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers are on their lips.”

“Sounds like a verse,” she said.

“It’s out of Romans,” he said, “I normally don’t quote the bible outside of church. I prefer to live it, but the poetry is there. I have special...Feelings, let's call them...About grifters and racists and the like. I suffered long under them.”

Julie opened her mouth, but Devin shook his head.

“Another time,” he said, “Please.”

“Okay.”

“So what do you believe?” he asked, his tone politely inquisitive, but intense, “About these spirits?”

Julie suddenly wondered if she was going to get in trouble, but couldn’t get herself out of that trouble.

“My theory is that they’re like people,” she explained, “In that they’re varied. There’s no one template for them. Nothing that describes them all. No shorthand. The closest that I can say is that they’re...Huge concepts. So huge that they can’t fit into the world, or maybe they’re so vast that they envelop it. So when we talk about Dog, he’s here for as long as we’re talking about it and then away. Our thoughts, our consciousness, summon attention. That would make sense for Kenji. If you poke the spirit for long enough, hard enough, they’ll notice you.”

She worried at her lip as she tried to put the last theory into words.

“Or that they’re just really old spirits that are sitting on...On...You might call it real estate. That the Dog spirit used to be a regular spirit, but it sits on the very concept of what it means to be a dog and all of its associations. You know, like loyalty, friendship, protection, etc. That the very idea of what it is to be a dog is its domain like a water spirit might have its own river.”

“Does the Puget Sound have a spirit?” he asked.

Julie nodded emphatically.

“Oh yeah,” she said, “I’ve never seen it, but it’d be huge. There were stories about people who try to summon something too big in my summoning safety class last year. Most people couldn’t even try. I don’t think I could even try. But someone who could? It’d probably kill them from the drain. I’ve never summoned anything more than my magic could handle.”

“So this...Dove,” he said, “Is it too big to summon?”

Julie laughed.

“You want to summon the very concept of peace?” she asked, giggling, “Or the spirit that sits on it? Good luck. They’re so big that you can’t talk to them outside of dreams or visions. And that’s if the mentor spirit can talk at all. About half of the mentors are animal spirits. I doubt that they can talk, or that if they could, that the translation would water down the message. I don’t think anyone in the world could summon a mentor spirit more than you could drink the ocean.”

Devin slurped his soykaf and thought.

“I’m sparing you the theological side of the debate,” he said, “That part was satisfied for me and it was long enough ago. I have my notes from the event if you’re interested.”

“Please.”

Devin nodded and frowned.

“They’re not on this commlink,” he said, “It’s new. I’ll see if I can find it later. I do wonder how someone who follows peace can abuse another person.”

Julie shrugged.

“It’s all concepts of peace,” she said, “It’s vast. There’s probably something bitter in there.”

Devin grunted in assent.

“I suppose I could see that, yes,” he said, “Anyway, let’s table the subject of spirits for now. I’m satisfied and now more interested in seeing to the needs of our patients. One of the lovely things about our way of life is that sending people home doesn’t mean people get short shrifted. Today will be instructive in professionalism. Someone is coming who you do not particularly care for. Not Joyce, but perhaps it's just someone you don't particularly care for. Perhaps he or she has ulterior motives for coming. What do you do?”

“I diagnose and if necessary, treat them anyway,” said Julie, “Because they might actually need it.”

“And?”

Julie thought about it.

“And…” she began, hesitantly, “If they actually did need care and I scared them away, they might not seek care next time?”

“From us, or…” he continued, leading her on.

“Maybe anyone?”

“And that could hurt someone. Exactly right,” he said, “We are not here to judge, only to heal. So it’s important not to bring our preconceptions into the same room as our patient. There is a remote chance that out of all of the doctor's offices in the metroplex, that he just so happened to come here to where his fiancee was receiving practical medical experience in the field.”

“Remotely, slightly, winning the lottery possible.”

“Absolutely possible,” he said, his tone jovial, “If this were a larger practice, I would switch you out with someone else who could diagnose him, but we don't have anyone else who can do magic but you. I could cancel on him though. Do you want me to? He only scheduled this today."

Julie thought about it. She almost said yes, but she shook her head and sighed heavily.

"I have to go to school with him," she said, "If I say no there might be trouble. I don't think he'd be as bad as Minuet, but he could still make problems for me. I don't really want to deal with that."

"Are you sure?"

Julie nodded, glumly.

"I'm learning that a lot of the students are wealthier and more powerful than I could ever hope to be," she said, "And they're not used to being refused. Like I said, I don't think I'm going to get shot at again, but once is enough for me."

He placed a hand on her shoulder in comfort.

"I understand," said Devin, sympathetically, "Marco had the same problems now and again. It was challenging to assist him and you have less in terms of the resources needed to defend yourself. So I understand your decision. Either way, just in case he is here for ulterior reasons, we are allowed to create distance from our patients in the form of professional boundaries. So I’m going to teach you one of the most valuable skills in our profession just in case that happens.”

Julie leaned forward, intrigued.

“What’s that?”

Devin tapped the side of his nose in a knowing gesture.

“Learning how to manage a problem patient.”

Julie, Joyce, Devin and Chip - Sunday, August 18th, 2075 – Early afternoon – Seattle Metroplex

After some fretting about what to say to Joyce, a nurse emerged from the examination room.

“He’s all yours,” she said.

"Thanks," said Julie.

The physical was about twenty-five minutes in, the main body of the work done. Julie was coming in to check behind the nurse, which actually meant Devin was doing that remotely through the wireless medical machines that had been attached to Joyce's body at strategic locations. Now all that was left was the magical portion. Due to how intimate a physical could be and due to her young age, Julie had been learning how to make the reading of the diagnosis spell more clinical, like she was looking at her own medical chart, though far more detailed rather than having to check their body over physically. That would wait for medical school.

She had however been checking his mundane chart as it was filled out and would be do some review later with Devin. Joyce sat on an examination table in a blue medical gown.

“Hello Joyce,” said Julie.

“Hello Julie,” said Joyce.

“I will be finishing up with your diagnosis,” she explained, “This is a standard double check after the medical machinery as the diagnosis spell occasionally catches what machines can’t. Just so you’re aware, I am still in training so the resident medical technician will be listening in to give me guidance. Is that acceptable?”

Joyce nodded once, his smile polite and practiced.

“It absolutely is. How are you doing today, Julie?” he asked.

Julie hesitated. The instructions from Devin had been clear, maintain a professional distance, be polite and firm, but she wasn’t happy with Joyce upon seeing him and she momentarily lost her train of thought. Devin piped up in her earpiece.

“It’s okay to engage,” he said, “Keep it vague, stay professional.”

Julie kept from nodding and cleared her throat.

“It’s a slow day, but that’s not bad. Thank you for asking,” she said, her as polite as she could manage, which wasn’t as professional as she hoped, “Now...In order to better cast my spell, I’m going to call in my ally spirit who normally assists me. You won’t even see him and he’ll only be here for a few seconds as I can sustain the spell without strain. Is that acceptable?”

“Ah yes, I’d heard that you can sustain a spell without having to concentrate,” said Joyce, “That’s very remarkable.”

Julie felt pride at the compliment, but remembered who it was coming from.

“Thank you,” said Julie, “I have to ask again though. Is that acceptable?”

“Oh, my apologies. Yes, that would be fine,” said Joyce, “I must say, I’m very impressed with the facilities and staff here. I study medicine when I have free time so I make a note of these things.”

Julie’s smile faltered at the continued praise. She tried to think of a way not to reengage with him, but didn’t know how.

“Thank you,” she said, “A moment, my spirit should be on his way shortly.”

Chip actually wasn’t on the way. She tried to establish her emotional link with him, but he was far away and it was taking time. The silence stretched, but not for too long as Joyce took a big breath, steeling himself for what Julie assumed was the real reason why he was here.

“I was hoping,” began Joyce, “That we might continue the discussion from yesterday.”

Julie frowned at him.

“I don’t think that would be appropriate in this setting,” she said.

“Good,” said Devin, in her earpiece, “Like I told you. Polite, but firm. Normally small talk is encouraged, but let’s limit that for the moment. Minimize his ability to engage with you personally.”

Undeterred, Joyce continued.

“Is there a better setting where we might talk?” he asked and some worry slipped through onto his face, “I’m very worried about Krupa. She nor her sister are speaking to me and there is a staffing shortage at the moment that would keep me from accompanying her, even at a suitable distance of her choosing. She’s planning on going to one of the protest marches and I’m running interference with her parents so she can actually go. Or I was. There are...Complications that her security detail should be aware of and my messages are being blocked.”

That caught Julie’s attention. She bit her lip in frustration. If he was telling the truth, this might be something she possibly needed to know, but she didn’t know how to keep up an air of professionalism and be curious and keep Devin from hearing. If he suspected that she was going to the march, then he definitely would tell Julian and that would cause all sorts of problems.

“Since I have Ms. Patel’s comm code, I will speak to her afterwards if I think this is credible,” said Devin, “Keep a professional distance. Be polite and firm with him. Maintain your boundaries.”

Julie really wished that Chip would hurry up so she could get this done. Normally he hung around nearby to help her, but they’d been experimenting with a lack of constant emotional communication at the request of Mr. Brand. Chip had been more independent lately as well.

“Joyce, as I said…” began Julie.

His face broke into open concern, even worry.

“Please?” he asked, voice breaking slightly, “I tried knocking on your door last night, but you weren’t there. You haven’t been at school for the break and I had a physical coming up so I was able to get off the island since I’m...Being punished. I’m supposed to see with a Tir Tairngire approved doctor, but…”

“She’s not here right now, Joyce,” snapped Julie.

He rocked back, as if he'd been slapped.

“Julie,” warned Devin, in her ear.

“Wh-What?” asked Joyce.

“She’s been training with me,” said Julie, “But not today. Because you’re here.”

“Julie!” called Devin.

Joyce looked down, shook his head and kept shaking it.

“Did I? Oh no…” he muttered, “I didn’t mean to...No...Nonono...Noooo...”

“Julie, come outside right now,” ordered Devin.

Julie looked away from Joyce.

“I’ll be right back,” said Julie, testily, “Please excuse me.”

“No, wait!” exclaimed Joyce.

He almost grabbed her wrist, but hesitated and instead he laced his fingers together.

“I’m...I’m so sorry,” he said, “I didn’t know. I came to see you, not...I told her I’d respect her wish for space. I’m just desperate. I love her, I’d never...Please believe me.”

Devin was calling in Julie’s ear. Joyce was pleading. Worse, Julie figured that this mess might be her fault for opening her mouth yesterday and for temporarily loosing her patience with Joyce. She wondered if she'd pay for that later. Joyce had his part in coming to her under false pretenses, but Julie wondered how much of this was her fault for opening her mouth yesterday to comfort him. Part of her actually believed Joyce even though she didn’t like him. It made sense if he’d accidentally violated Krupa’s personal space to talk to Julie and now she wasn’t picking up his comms after the misunderstanding.

“Just a moment,” said Julie, “I’ll be back shortly.”

Shame roiled in her stomach as she opened the door. Devin was standing there, a frown on his face, though he only began to speak once she closed the door.

“You’re better than this,” he said.

That shame doubled and she looked down. Part of her wanted to make him understand, but they all sounded like excuses in her head as she went over them.

“Not a single problem for months, but once it becomes personal you let your emotions get the better of you,” he said, his tone serious, “When you are on the job, you put your emotions aside for the good of the patient. I don’t care why he’s here, all I care about is that he gets the best treatment possible. Your attitude is preventing that from happening.”

Julie just wanted to crawl under a rock and die. He was right and how she'd acted with Joyce was her fault. Just a single slip and she'd lost control of the situation.

It was then that Chip reestablished emotional contact and recoiled at how she was feeling, cutting the link before her shame echoed back as he experienced it. Luckily, she cut contact before that happened. It was only her normal shame that she had to wrestle with, not her shame doubled, tripled, quadrupled, more, to the point of becoming overwhelming.

“I understand,” said Julie, quietly.

Devin nodded.

“This is why I’m here,” he said, “I am hard on you so you can learn. That means learning from your mistakes. Now I have been listening in as you received consent from the patient. I will speak to him afterwards. If there is a credible threat to Ms. Patel, I will contact her. Just a moment."

Devin opened the door and strode inside. Two minutes passed and Chip appeared at her side, appearing out of nowhere. He hadn't scared her despite that fact as he'd reached out to her with their connection for just a moment to let her know that he was there.

"You okay?" he asked.

"No, I messed up," she said.

"Bad?" he asked.

Julie nodded. Chip gave her a hug. It helped a little. Nothing more was said, but his presence helped reassure her. Two more minutes passed and Devin left the room, closing the door with a click. Julie bit her lip. Devin looked troubled, even shaken.

"I've contacted Ms. Patel," he said, "Her um...Her sister. Normally I wouldn't, but there are extenuating circumstances. Some sort of political problem with the protests."

"What are they?" asked Julie.

Devin hesitated and she could see him decide whether or not to tell her.

"The governor is calling out the Seattle guard," said Devin, "They don't have a good reputation when it comes to metahumans. The protests might be suppressed violently. If I know them, they'll be looking for an excuse to do just that. Most likely it's a response to yesterday. The highways being shut down by protesters."

Cold fear threaded through Julie's guts. There were military bases in the metroplex, army and navy, but like the national guard, the Seattle guard was who the governor could call out.

"It's dealt with though. I would suggest going home early today, Julie. Things could get bad. Now, as for what's happening inside of that room? I want you to finish up. Sometimes we make mistakes,” he said, gently, “What’s important is that we don’t keep making them, which is why I’m so firm with you. Now, compose yourself, go inside, apologize and complete the physical like the professional I know you can be.”

“Okay,” said Julie.

Devin nodded to Chip and received one in turn.

A minute later, Julie stepped back into the room. Joyce looked like an emotional mess. He’d retrieved his commlink from his pants, but he put it aside. Chip had turned invisible in the astral, though Julie could feel his presence through their emotional link now that she was calm again.

“Okay, sorry about that,” said Julie, “That was unprofessional of me.”

Joyce's look was one of quiet desperation.

"I understand," said Joyce, quietly, "Please understand as well why I had to do this."

“Okay, I do. I'll talk to her later about why you came and that you weren't knowingly trying to invade her personal space."

Joyce closed his eyes and sighed in relief. His long, red hair made a curtain in front of his face as he leaned over.

"Thank you."

“You're welcome, but I would prefer it if we could keep this professional for the rest of the process. My spirit is here to assist me. Are you ready?”

He pushed his hair aside and nodded. With Chip’s help she cast her spell. Since she was able to sustain it without any strain, a handy skill of hers, Chip gave her the emotional equivalent of a wave and sped away to whatever he was doing. Her attention turned back to Joyce and the wealth of information that was available to her was staggering.

Joyce spoke up as he saw the small lights and tracers from the powerful spell, knowing that it was working.

“As you saw from my chart, I have some cybernetics and bioware,” he said, “Just a small amount of them. Quality of life stuff. It’s deltaware, so I doubt you could sense it, but…”

Julie actually could sense the modifications. The spell had been cast particularly well with Chip’s help and her own skill, so she was able to find the tiniest of imperfections in his body that spoke of augmentations. It was like reading a second chart, though there was just so much information that it was almost overwhelming.

“I can sense them,” she said.

She felt, more than witnessed his shock.

“Really?” he asked, “That’s remarkable. Bleeding edge tech is extremely difficult to sense, even for finely tuned machines. The surgery was minuscule to keep my magic mostly intact.”

“I can tell,” said Julie, as she checked the magical equivalent of his chart, “But I can’t tell what it’s for. It’s on your chart and I'm sensing it in what I can think of as the spell's chart, but I don’t know a lot about cybernetics or bioware yet. Most people who come down here get that looked at elsewhere.”

Julie pulled up his mundane medical chart in AR and glanced over it in review. She could guess at what some of them were for, but guesses weren't perfect.

“By way of apology,” said Joyce, a bit stuffily, “Would you like me to point them out for you? Since you’re learning I mean. It’s not often that anyone anywhere outside of a deltaware clinic would get such a close look. Then when you’re done, you can look for any problems. It is a rare opportunity for something this educational. I'm told that once you spot the subtleties, you'll be able to spot them again more easily.”

Julie waited for the no from Devin, but instead there was a “Hmm.” She waited on him for a short while, but eventually he spoke up in her ear.

“Go ahead, since he is consenting,” said Devin, “I doubt you'll get this kind of opportunity again. He’s the last patient of the day, so take your time, but don't get distracted.”

Julie grunted softly in assent.

“If you don’t mind,” said Julie.

“Not at all,” he said, magnanimously, “I have a standard cybernetic and bioware quality of life suite. Damage to my essence is minor so the ah...Hit...To my magic small and it allows me to fit in with many of my peers at school.”

“This is normal?” asked Julie, somewhat surprised.

“Oh yes,” said Joyce, “There are those who value body purity, to never wish to lose anything and there are those who want the small modifications.”

He pointed to his head and Julie focused on his brain.

“Up here is a logic co-processor, which helps me pay attention for as long as I wish,” he explained, “A sleep regulator, so I can stay up nights. I only require three hours of sleep. Again, if I wish. I'm not permanently forced to pay attention or stay up. I can let my mind wander or fall asleep basically on command. Three hours is the equivalent to a full night's rest, though I can go back to sleep if I want to. It's very handy.”

He pointed to his hair, eyes and pointed to what Julie thought was his wrist, but was actually his skin.

“My hair has been enhanced. I don’t have to use shampoo and never get any split ends,” he said, “My eyes have had microsurgery so I’ll never need to use glasses or contacts. My skin is...Well, the modification is called Silky Skin, but I didn’t go for the softening option. I’ll never have a blemish though, no pimples, no scars, no moles and the structure of my skin has been ever so slightly altered to keep me warmer or colder depending on temperature. Nothing drastic though. None of those even harm my magic, they’re so minute. Even standard modifications wouldn’t do that.”

“Really?” asked Julie, “That’s um...That’s really interesting.”

“I've never had a problem opening up a jam jar either," he joked, "Which is to say that my skin has extra grip on my hands and feet."

Despite herself, Julie giggled. Then she thought of her own skin. When she’d been human, her skin had been soft, but now as an ork, her skin was rougher to the touch. Soft for an ork, but nowhere near as soft as a human’s. Despite herself, she found herself asking about it.

“How much does it cost?” she asked.

Joyce really had to think about that and it kept him quiet for a full twenty seconds. Eventually he shrugged.

“Oh, not much, totally accessible by the public. People with even a small amount of disposable income have mods like these. At least in my country,” he said, “Not the deltaware, mind you. It’s a status symbol you see. What’s expensive aren’t the mods themselves, but access to the deltaware at all.”

Julie wasn’t sure how she felt. She’d had some body image problems since being turned into an ork. Joyce seemed to sense that and cleared his throat.

“Not everyone gets it,” he said, “Some students at school pride themselves on having no modifications at all. They’re more ah...Studious. Please don't feel compelled to get them just because they're available. You're fine just the way you are.”

Another compliment and again came the surge of happiness, which she wasn't exactly thrilled with. Despite herself, she did feel a little better, though she stayed quiet, exploring the changes, comparing them to other people she'd diagnosed in the past. The spell had been cast so well that she could even get a rough estimate of how old the minute damage to his body was. Just over a year old. Joyce’s fingers traced down to his stomach and then back to his head.

“I have dietware, which does exactly what you think it does,” he said, “My body regulates my weight. So for example, if I’m stressed, the cortisol, the stress hormones, they don’t push me to overeat. I can if I want to, but I'm aware that I'd be eating because I'm stressed, not because I need food.”

“That’s going to wreck my magic, isn’t it?” she asked.

Joyce made an apologetic face.

“Just a little, but there are thresholds. A little can be a lot in your case,” he said, “A little damage to your magic early on is easy to repair. It might take a week to study, though the maximum amount of magic you could achieve would be stunted. Later on when it takes months to raise your magic? Very difficult to recover from. I’m sorry, I wouldn’t suggest it for someone who is as advanced as you are. It might take months, even years for you to reach the same heights of power again.”

Jullie sighed. That would have been too easy. Joyce kept pointing.

“I have a totally clean metabolism,” he said, “I have to use the ah...Facilities far less. Just once a day. My sweat and um...Other fluids. They don’t stink. It means that after a hot day outside for instance, that I can just towel off my sweat instead of needing a shower. Oh, and finally, I was lactose intolerant at one point. My family owns cattle so it wouldn’t do to have an heir who is unable to drink milk or eat cheese. That last part would be harmless to your magic as well in case you are lactose intolerant.”

“I’m not, but it sounds handy," said Julie.

"It very much is. And ah, well, that completes the tour," he said, "I do have to admit that the logic-coprocessor and the sleep regulatory aren't strictly part of the quality of life suite. At least not until one is older, but I decided to get an early start."

"Thank you."

"Of course. And now you'll be able to better sense these things in the future," he said, "These are the most common sorts of deltaware you'll see in the ah...Wild, as it were."

So she continued with her exam. There was just so much information, but she took her time, moving from part to part, looking for abnormalities. She was almost done when she noticed that his testosterone was odd. It had almost slipped her notice. She tugged on a few threads and information flooded her mind. She realized in that moment that Joyce used to be female, but was now biologically male. Parts had been removed, parts installed. It was curious, but nothing more. She’d known one or two people who’d switched biological sexes while growing up, though she knew that it would be far more expensive than getting mods to hair or skin. Few people actually cared about biological sex, though it was impolite not to mention it if one was dating. She almost dismissed it entirely, understanding why Joyce might not mention it out of prudence.

However, it was the age of the alterations that caught her eye. Everything had been installed just over a year ago and she guessed that it had been all at once. Not the sex reassignment. That was old, very old. Julie blinked in confusion as she checked the date. Fourteen years. That was the age of the modification. Again she checked, that Joyce might have been fourteen before transitioning, but no, the surgery had been done fourteen years ago. She checked the notes in AR. All of the modifications that he mentioned were there, but the bioware sex reassignment hadn’t been in her charts. Besides that, she couldn’t think of a single medical reason why someone would reassign the sex of a toddler. It was easy to choose the sex of a child at conception with even a tiny amount of money. Any damage to almost any organ of the metahuman body could be fixed with current medical science as long as they had access to enough money. Joyce didn't seem to lack money.

Again she checked the chart for something that would explain this. That she was getting something wrong. Joyce cleared his throat and Julie realized that she must have given something away, because her mouth was agape.

“Is something the matter?” he asked.

“Uh…” said Julie, awkwardly, “Um…”

Joyce quirked a nervous smile.

“Don’t be shy,” he said, “It’s okay.”

“What’s wrong, Julie?” asked Devin, in her ear.

Julie had a horrible feeling stirring inside of her. Though she had no proof, her gut told her that something had happened to Joyce without his consent or knowledge. Deltaware today was bleeding edge tech. Deltaware fourteen years ago? She had no idea what bleeding edge tech was doing inside of Joyce that far back. She had this ugly, sneaking suspicioun that he’d been violated and that she was stumbling across something that wasn’t meant to be known by anyone, maybe including Joyce himself. It wasn’t in the charts and they were so very detailed. The changes were deltaware. Expensive, like Joyce had said. Not meant to be noticed save only by the deepest scans, technological or magical.

“Uh…” muttered Julie, “I’m...Wow.”

"Julie, talk to me," said Devin.

"I don't..."

The nervous smile that Joyce had been sporting fell away. A look of worry overtook his face.

“What’s wrong, Julie?” he asked, hesitantly, “Do I...Do I need to go to the hospital?”

--

CYOA Time

What does Julie do?

Also, would Julie be the kind of person who would be interested in the cosmetic bioware that doesn't damage essence? Is she satisfied with her body? Would she want to change it? Or would she prefer to keep her body as is?

Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Mar 14, 2020

Podima
Nov 4, 2009

by Fluffdaddy
Uh, holy gently caress.

I'm thinking she does tell Joyce, but this is a hideous minefield if I ever saw one.

Ice Phisherman
Apr 12, 2007

Swimming upstream
into the sunset



Welp, big surprise here. Or maybe not if you thought about how I portrayed Joyce and his relationship to Dove. Originally, I did mess up Dove mixing and matching hims and hers, she's and he's. And I decided instead of correcting it to run with it.

So I talked extensively with people about the ethics of this particular subplot as well as talked to a few of my trans, gay and genderqueer friends about if this was right to talk about and how to approach it. After getting a bunch of thumbs up about where my head was at, I've decided to go ahead with it.

Welcome to cyberpunk. poo poo is awful sometimes. And it is often awful in new and exciting ways for old and terrible reasons.

Note that I don't think or portray that being trans or changing biological sex is a bad thing. Personally I think that people are going to give less and less of a poo poo in the future because capitalism wants to give everyone rights so that capitalists have more markets. That includes trans people. So Julie's initial reaction is my reaction. After finding out that Joyce is trans, Julie doesn't really care. There's no grand moment of acceptance. No performance where she's suddenly woke. Julie is still coasting on the fumes of her conservative background, though that's changing, and even she doesn't really care. I'm moving beyond performative acceptance to the point where it's viewed as normal and no one cares outside of edge cases. Where gender is non-binary and no one really gives a drat. Where one can switch biological sex with enough money. Where the conversation about ethics of switching biological sex is that it's considered rude not to tell your partner. That's where the debate is and it's not a particularly active one.

For those not in the know, cyberpunk borrows heavily from queer theory. The new sixth edition is moving away from that because many of the new authors don't seem to get their roots. For reasons I have no idea why, because a lot of the design is bizarre when your character's skin color matters when there's not enough white people for example to sustain whiteness while also being exclusionary against "white" non-humans for instance. So this isn't Julie going "Ew, gross, trans person". This is something darker, something looking looking forward to what's possible in true science fiction fashion. One of sci-fi's greatest strengths is in sociology, moral questions, the what ifs of the future. And what happened is this:

At some point, Joyce's biological sex was changed from female to male at an age where Joyce could not possibly have consented. In a world where biological sex of a child can be chosen by the parents at conception, along with a ton of other traits, where you can even have designer babies, where any mutilation to the genitals, hell, basically any part of the body, can be fixed with enough money, what I'm positing as a moral problem is why would someone violate the bodily autonomy of someone for non-medical reasons? What moral society would allow someone to operate for non-medical reasons on a toddler? For what reason or reasons has this been deemed necessary?

So I'm going to make one thing explicit. Joyce has not been told, which is what Julie has had a kind of gut sense about. One of Joyce's strongest themes is that he's been constantly lied to in order for others to control his world view, his track in life, who he associates with, who marries and now his very body. Julie just stumbled across the social equivalent of a land mine.

Joyce is a product of his environment and his environment is extremely abusive, racist and generally hosed up. Bad things don't just happen to regular people. Bad things happen to everyone in a fascist society.

So let's talk, folks. What the gently caress do we do?

-

Krupa rolls composure and gets 3 hits. So she isn’t shaken by Joyce being on today's docket, but removes herself from the situation. I roll her loyalty to see if it’s damaged. She’ll need at least 2 hits on 10 dice (loyalty x 5). That’s 1 hit, her loyalty is damaged and it falls to 4/6 from 5/6. She thinks that Joyce has tracked her down and is violating her space. She leaves before anyone else can say anything. It is recoverable, but the misunderstanding harms Krupa and Joyce’s relationship.

I roll Julie’s intuition + logic. That is a critical glitch. I spend her only edge (she only recovered one last night from sleeping, as per usual) to reduce that to only a glitch. So the punishment is only bad, not catastrophic. Julie realizes as Krupa leaves that this is her fault in a way, but she doesn’t blame herself entirely. So she wants to figure out if Joyce is violating Krupa’s privacy or if he wanted to come see Julie to talk more. The answer is talk more, but we’ll roll off on etiquette to see who wins that confrontation and if the truth is revealed or misunderstood.

Julie first rolls intuition + logic and gets 4 hits to know anything about Joyce, because she really doesn’t associate with him. And she realizes that Kenji mentioned that Joyce’s mentor spirit is Dove. So she racks her brain for what that means, rolling her knowledge skill of magical traditions 3 + intuition 5. 1 hit is enough to know very generally what Dove is about. Dove’s core value is peace, so she’s able to disarm the conversation with Devin so he won’t involve herself.

So Julie consults her patients for the day. There aren’t very many due to the protests. Only three patients all day and all before lunch. I roll perception for Julie to notice Joyce’s name, it’s easy, but she still glitches. So Julie has to roll a composure roll or the exchanges will be harder for Joyce. 2 hits is not enough and Joyce will be at -1 dice until he succeeds at least once.

So this leaves Julie only with him as he shows up at noon. I roll Julie’s judge intentions which is logic + intuition of 9, but Joyce is running his kinesics 4 power, which drains dice on defensive social rolls and judge intentions. He is stupidly hard to read and has a serious edge in social confrontations when he's on the defensive. 0 hits. Julie just can’t read him and he acts normally.

Now Joyce doesn’t know that Krupa was here. He’s been stuck on the island, largely feeling sorry for himself, under punishment by Julian and he had to put up his own shame pole in his front yard in front of his cabin. But he did have a physical coming up, so he exploited that to get off the island and just didn't tell Mother Bear where he was going to get it. He's learned something that Krupa probably needs to know about and because he's on today's docket and called after he violated her space, she isn't picking up and neither is Saanvi. So at this moment, Krupa thinks that Joyce is invading Krupa’s space and Julie suspects it and it's causing safety issues, though I won't say what those are yet. Joyce wanted to try and get Julie to talk to Krupa for safety concerns. So it's a big drat misunderstanding and the amount of dysfunction at the Tir consulate makes it possible.

So during the physical, which is the excuse Joyce uses to talk to Julie, he tries to talk to Julie about Krupa. He does know her reputation though, but not her, so he rolls etiquette and Julie rolls in defense, and he does not get his kinesics since he’s on offense for the social roll. Even with the -1, Joyce wins 5 v 4. Her suspicion drops and so does the -1 to make the rolls turn out in the worst way possible.

So what Joyce learns is that if he wanted to talk to Krupa, she and Saanvi left because of him. And this stuns him. He had no idea that Krupa was here and rolls composure. 3 is a success. I roll judge intentions again for Julie to see if she can pick anything up. 1 hit isn’t enough, so she doesn’t see that this stuns him. Instead, Joyce uses his body control to make his point to Julie, playing on her emotions. It's manipulative, but he has his reasons. Due to Joyce’s near perfect control over his body, it works I roll etiquette again. 3 v 2. Joyce wins. Julie gets a talking to by Devin when she loses her cool with Joyce.

Devin goes inside, talks to Joyce and he convinces Devin that this is important. The Seattle Guard is getting deployed and they don't have a good history with metahumans, as they were participants in the Night of Rage. More on that later. So Devin takes this seriously as he lived through that. Julie rolls etiquette + loyalty versus Devin's etiquette. Julie wins 6 to 4, so she gets told about what's going to happen early. Joyce is still terrified, but he'll now begin to actively hide it and try to do damage control for his relationship.

Julie rolls composure, gets 4 hits, collects herself and apologizes to Joyce for her demeanor. It was not professional of her.

Again I roll judge intentions versus Joyce’s con to deal with how terrified he is. 1 v 2, Julie does not see it. Instead, he manipulates Julie so someone will talk to Krupa and give him the information that she really needs to have. So he plays at being contrite.

Julie rolls logic 4 + medicine 1 and gets a bonus die from Devin for another +1. Now the full physical hadn’t been done by Julie, but by one of the nurses. So Julie is spared some awkwardness at physically “exploring” his body, which won’t really be appropriate until she’s older. Especially if it’s someone she knows. Instead she reviews the chart and will diagnose him. And so Julie calls on Chip, who arrives in the astral, and casts her diagnose spell. 5 hits, no drain. Julie sees all.

So she gets a good look at the medical charts and compares them. He actually has some cyberware and bioware installed. Deltaware quality. All of it is bleeding edge tech for what are quality of life mods. It's conspicuous consumption. It’s not break the bank expensive, but access to deltaware at all is expensive due to its rarity. She normally wouldn’t have noticed unless it was on the chart and she wouldn’t have noticed unless she cast particularly high. So a particular plot point comes early instead of in another book.

She asks him about his cybernetics and bioware mods. And after some explanation that she senses them instead of just reads his chart, he’s surprised that she can actually feel them with her diagnose spell. And that she must be particularly powerful. It’s actually pretty common for most of the people on the island to have a kind of suite of quality of life cybernetics and bioware. It sets back magic growth a bit, but it really is worth it. So he has a clean metabolism, meaning his anything his body excretes literally doesn’t stink in an offensive way. There is dietware to keep him thin, a logic co-processor to help him concentrate, a sleep regulator to allow him to stay up nights, which is the most expensive, augmentations to his hair to make it full, corrective surgery to his eyes so he’ll never need to wear contacts or glasses and skin augmentations (silky skin) so he doesn’t get acne, blemishes or scars of any kind. That’s the normal suite for most students save for the sleep regulator, though a few don’t get them. They’re the ones that deal with the lack of quality of life mods for more magic. The students who take their studies seriously and have parents that allowed for their magic to maybe develop before the QoL mods go in.

Julie is curious and while she’s focusing on these tiny disruptions to his essence, his connection to his soul, that she can’t feel all of those changes. And Joyce nods. The corrective surgery to his eyes, hair, skin and lactose tolerance are so minor that they wouldn’t damage his essence at all. Only the dietware, logic co-processor and clean metabolism disrupt anything. Not in the normal suite would be his tolerance and lactose tolerance geneware, his attention co-processor cyberware so he can pay attention for longer and sleep regulator. And Julie’s spell is working so well that she can even get a rough estimate of when they were placed in. Most of these were installed in the last year. And Joyce explains that he had to develop his magic first before putting any of these in so you don't lose it completely.

And Joyce is a healer himself, not as practiced as Julie, but he senses Julie’s curiosity about the cyberware and bioware mods and wants to use her curiosity to get what he wants out of this, which is to contact Krupa for her safety and to do damage control. So he begins pointing all of this out on his body in a clinical fashion because she’s never seen deltaware before. Devin allows it since Joyce is willing and this is an extremely rare opportunity even though Julie acted out. Julie is fascinated. There are all of these tiny changes and she’s thinking that maybe she might get a few of the items on the list. I'll leave that up to the thread. Be aware that anything that damages her essence will be catastrophic to her magic though. But the non-damaging stuff? That's interesting to her. Especially if it means that she can tame her hair and not get the occasional pimple. Also her skin is rougher as an ork and she might want to change that, but she’s not so sure about that. So long as it doesn’t mess with her magic, she’s tentatively interested in some very minor quality of life mods.

But there’s something that Joyce doesn’t point out. And it strikes her as strange, because he said that he couldn’t scar, but there is some internal scarring. It’s extremely minute, almost on the cellular level. What she realizes is that Joyce, at one point, had his sex changed. His female sex organs were removed and male ones were put in their place.

Now Julie, even though she’s fairly conservative, doesn’t really think or care or judge Joyce for having a sex change. It’s expensive, but hey, whatever. Joyce used to be biologically female, now he’s male, no big deal. A point of curiosity, but not one that she’s not so crass to ask about. And that’s the end of her opinion on the subject.

I roll a memory test to see if she asks about this or remembers the chart. 3 hits, she remembers the chart.

It’s not on the chart. And that seems weird.

And she checks the age of the scarring. This is far, far older than a year. This is at least a decade old. No, fourteen years and...Some amount of days, she’s not sure. Joyce is sixteen. I roll Julie’s medicine skill. 1 hit. She’s not knowledgeable to know what this means exactly, but there shouldn’t be a physical reason why his sex was changed at that age. It should be on the chart. It's not. If there had been some kind of injury, even catastrophic, there would have been scars and most likely he would have been restored to his original biological sex. But the scars are surgical, clean, barely perceptible and if she hadn’t cast her spell so well, she never would have noticed. It's deltaware. It wasn't meant to be noticed.

I roll composure. Julie gets a 3. Joyce rolls perception. 5 hits. He sees that something is wrong. He asks what’s wrong. Thread choice time.

VanSandman
Feb 16, 2011
SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER
Joyce deserves to know but Julie would absolutely talk to Devin first.

jagadaishio
Jun 25, 2013

I don't care if it's ethical; I want a Mammoth Steak.

VanSandman posted:

Joyce deserves to know but Julie would absolutely talk to Devin first.

This. Ideally, this is a conversation that should be between Devin, Julie, Joyce, and a 'privacy screen' (a white noise generator). Just remember, this probably the first time in Joyce's life that he's been to somewhere which:
1. Could detect delta-grade procedures.
2. Didn't lie to his face.

He needs candor, but with care given to avoid any additional trauma or a jump to denial.

Chatrapati
Nov 6, 2012
This sort of thing makes me very uncomfortable, cheers for the warning! I guess Kenji and Joyce have even more stuff in common now. :(

As for what Julie would do... I think she would do this by the book, whatever that book is. She's shocked and has just been reprimanded for acting unprofessionally, she has moments to react to prevent causing a scene, and so instinctively, I think she would suck up any questions and doubts she has and try to be the best doctor she can be- clinical and to the point. In this scenario, I think the doctor would inform child services (or whatever the American cryberpunk equivalent is. BeSafeKidz inc.) and explain the situation... Maybe it'd be different since he's from another country?
... I think other posters are right, she should ask Devin, this is an ethical and bureaucratic mess. Meanwhile, she should ask Joyce to wait in the waiting room.

Dr Subterfuge
Aug 31, 2005

TIME TO ROC N' ROLL
Well poo poo. Yeah, he deserves to know. Keeping that secret is not a call Julie gets to make, especially not with Joyce already realizing something is up. Devin needs to be a pat of it, though.

Doing it by the book is complicated. Ideally you would get the state involved because the parents did this, but the state in question is Tir, and Tir is what allowed it to happen. So the question really is should be: Does Julie get anyone else involved other than Joyce and Devin?

sheep-dodger
Feb 21, 2013

We know that Joyce was just consented to the diagnosis and examination by Julie, so presumably in the eyes of UCAS law he is able to consent to medical treatment on his own. This likely also means that legally he can be informed about this without parental consent, it'd be weird if he was old enough for one but not the other. I think the thing Julie does is to confer with Devin before ultimately doing the professional thing and informing him about what she found as professionally and cautiously as possible.

This will ultimately come back to bite her in the rear end when Joyce's parents find out she told him and put her on their shitlist.

Chatrapati
Nov 6, 2012

Dr Subterfuge posted:

Well poo poo. Yeah, he deserves to know. Keeping that secret is not a call Julie gets to make, especially not with Joyce already realizing something is up. Devin needs to be a pat of it, though.

Doing it by the book is complicated. Ideally you would get the state involved because the parents did this, but the state in question is Tir, and Tir is what allowed it to happen. So the question really is should be: Does Julie get anyone else involved other than Joyce and Devin?

I agree with this on a moral level, and I think it's probably the nicest course of action, but I'm not sure it's what Julie would do. We don't know if it is Julie's call to keep it a secret or not, or what the laws regarding something like this are for medical professionals. We don't even know if there's been any manipulation at all, Joyce might be fully aware of his sex change. At the moment this is all up in the air, and Devin, acting in the role of her supervisor and also legal adult person, is the best source of instructions we have. If he asks for Julie to contact Tir's child services, I think she would do that even if she suspected involvement from the state.

Personally, I think the state have no idea and no interest in this illegal operation. I'm thinking that same-sex marriage is illegal in Tir, and Joyce's parents did it for the sake of procuring an arranged marriage.

Question Time
Sep 12, 2010



Agreed, Julie says "Sorry I'll be right back" and goes out to talk to Devin.

VanSandman
Feb 16, 2011
SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER

Chatrapati posted:

I agree with this on a moral level, and I think it's probably the nicest course of action, but I'm not sure it's what Julie would do. We don't know if it is Julie's call to keep it a secret or not, or what the laws regarding something like this are for medical professionals. We don't even know if there's been any manipulation at all, Joyce might be fully aware of his sex change. At the moment this is all up in the air, and Devin, acting in the role of her supervisor and also legal adult person, is the best source of instructions we have. If he asks for Julie to contact Tir's child services, I think she would do that even if she suspected involvement from the state.

Personally, I think the state have no idea and no interest in this illegal operation. I'm thinking that same-sex marriage is illegal in Tir, and Joyce's parents did it for the sake of procuring an arranged marriage.

Ice has said Joyce doesn't know. He's using the cyberpunk setting of Shadowrun to deal with the natural consequences of our own human shittiness mixed with god-like technology.

Chatrapati
Nov 6, 2012

VanSandman posted:

Ice has said Joyce doesn't know. He's using the cyberpunk setting of Shadowrun to deal with the natural consequences of our own human shittiness mixed with god-like technology.

Oh, I must have missed that. In which case, just replace where I've said 'we' with 'Julie'.

Ice Phisherman posted:

Welp, big surprise here. Or maybe not if you thought about how I portrayed Joyce and his relationship to Dove. Originally, I did mess up Dove mixing and matching hims and hers, she's and he's. And I decided instead of correcting it to run with it.

I did just notice this though. This revelation came out of nowhere for me. What were the clues?

In regard to bodily modifications for Julie, I don't think she'd be into it. She's already against tattooing, cyberware and stuff just seems like a more radical version of that.
Unless tattooing does damage essence in which case, I guess it could be a different matter. I think it's too controversial anyway. Plus, I reckon she would recognise her progress in recognising herself as a person and an orc, both through moving into Touristeville, and creating Chip, a brother-like figure who looks like an orc. I think that a part of recognising that you're a different type of species to the one which you believed yourself to be would be recognising and accepting physical differences, so I don't think she'd make any changes, even she's morally okay with the concept.

Runa
Feb 13, 2011

When I saw the disclaimer, then saw who was coming into the clinic, I began to develop a suspicion this had something to do with gender.

Even forewarned, this is pretty heavy stuff though.

Dr Subterfuge
Aug 31, 2005

TIME TO ROC N' ROLL

Chatrapati posted:

I did just notice this though. This revelation came out of nowhere for me. What were the clues?

Joyce has always been described as looking especially effeminate. I'm not sure if there was more specific foreshadowing than that though.

Ice Phisherman
Apr 12, 2007

Swimming upstream
into the sunset



Chatrapati posted:

I did just notice this though. This revelation came out of nowhere for me. What were the clues?

Whenever Joyce talks about Dove, he's confused about Dove's gender. It changes from moment to moment. This was back in book five at two different points. Both I think were in class with Kenji. Personally I think that this might have been Dove preparing Joyce for this moment in particular, because there's nothing in the lore about Dove being male, female, both or being fluid from moment to moment.

Joyce being particularly effeminate wasn't originally supposed to be a tell. More that Tir is a fascist country and the original story was going to be that Joyce didn't fit the mold for what "manliness" meant, and still doesn't in their extremely narrow definition of it. At the same time, Joyce is actually very successful as a recruiter, but because he doesn't fit the mold of what it means to be a man, he doesn't get respect. That got played down early on. Joy, the girl, would have probably been extremely tiny, smaller than Fuzzy perhaps. Joyce the guy has been pumped full of growth hormones and still turned out small. His finacee' is actually taller than him by an inch. And in this culture of machismo which surrounds every single fascist culture, him being scrawny, effeminate and peace loving would have garnered no respect. And Joyce grows up in the shadow of his dead brother, who was honored for heroism by dying for his country. And he's trying to earn his father's respect in a way that will never be respected, because Joyce isn't the kind of person to bayonet a human and scramble up their guts with the sharp end.

Eventually, Joyce morphed into someone more along the lines of a person whose life is carefully constructed. Someone who has been constantly lied to. Who believes in his country's moral goodness only because he doesn't know his history. Who's out there hunting for influence and money from the corporate class. Who thinks that he's doing something valuable and worthy.

Imagine not a Potemkin village, but a Potemkin person. Completely fake from top to bottom, but not realizing it. A living piece of propaganda. Maybe in a few years they'll let him in on the secret, but for now, his ignorance and goodness is useful. In a place where lies can be detected with magic, an ignorant person slides right through that magic, because he thinks he's telling the truth. And maybe Tir isn't that bad after all. After all, I know Joyce and Joyce wouldn't lie to me. He's a good guy. I checked him with magic a few times and when he talked about his country, the bad parts I learned about didn't seem to exist. Maybe their bad reputation was overblown. That Calfree was the real aggressor, that the concentration camps weren't real, that Tir has a point. A land for metahumans. Elves on top of course though.

Of course.

Part of the grifting and influence gathering in a world where the few hold real power is not to convince the masses. It's not a total waste of time, but you'll be endlessly opposed. But in the halls of the wealthy and powerful? Who naysays you there? Over time, bit by bit, encounter by encounter, year by year, you change a person's mind. And who are still forming their opinions and impressionable? Teenagers! And where are a bunch of them? Why, Blake Island would be one of those places. Not just there of course, but having so many influential people in one place who are worth investing in if you believe in the long view, like an elf would, well you drop in someone like Joyce to go make friends and lure impressionable teenagers from powerful corporate families back to Tir for a week or two, or maybe even for the summer. And then they don't just get treated like corporate royalty. They get treated like actual royalty.

Then, given time and patience and resources, you flip some powerful family through their kids and they think that fascism is great fun, and their billions and their influence network is suddenly at your disposal. You don't need to convince millions or billions of people to change the world. At the other end, all you need to do to change the world is to convince the children of a handful of influential people, because those children grow up and like to think that they'd look sharp in a Nazi uniform or that running a fascist propaganda network would be worth their time and effort.

Imagine Joyce as a kind of gateway drug for fascism and largely he's largely unaware of exactly what he's doing because he's been carefully groomed for the role. And his only real opposition on the island was Olisha, who was a lazy, cruel, vain Cat shaman who hated his guts for personal reasons. A person who wasn't particularly likable. Who was more interested in dunking on Joyce with spiteful teenage bullshit rather than running any kind of real opposition to Joyce until Joyce started working on Kenji, because she had an ongoing interest in Kenji because he is hot and she is bored. Stealing what she viewed as her toy was personally offensive to her, which put the thumb on the scales that made her more cruel and vain than she was lazy, and finally spurred her on to real action. When she actually took Joyce seriously, she blew apart the lie that was his life. Not because she hated fascism, though she did, but because Joyce was taking away her toy and she is extremely petty.

Joyce's interest in Kenji was genuine. He was a competent person of Joyce's age, and a young noble is always looking for a right hand man or at least for a retainer. And if Kenji was only interested in money and didn't have human friends, he'd fit right in with Tir. Kenji's identity was never particularly stable in his identity and he is still working on ideology and if his story had gone another way, fascism would have been an easy bolt-on ideology as it has been for a ton of people with a weak identity and no direction. Kenji would have done financially well under that system and his very first role would have been to tame Saanvi's rebellious nature. It was his belief in Dog, however new, and more importantly, his friends, that made him reject fascism. To reject a life of ease and comfort in an authoritarian system that the original Kenji would have gladly accepted, because he'd be near the top. Kenji would be bound to the family through Saanvi, the black sheep, who's rejected suitors before so ruthlessly because she enjoys needling her narcissist parents, the allies of the Sartel family. So they're not risking another noble on her because every scandal damages their influence and influence is everything for the wealthy after they reach a certain threshold of money to be able to play in that game of influence.

Saanvi was Kenji's tryout. And her opinion of herself and identity was so weak, that she would have most likely responded very well to a newbie fascist like Kenji. A friend in a foreign, friendless place. And every time Kenji accepts more money or influence, he entraps himself in a game that he didn't understand because he only understood what money and influence would get him. Not how money and influence are used to bind people like him to the wealthy and influential. And in the end, he and Saanvi, on that particularly ugly timeline, would have gotten folded into Tir's fascism and he would have used his charisma with Joyce to charm more people than Joyce ever could have with just Krupa helping. He'll have the money, influence, power, prestige and a hot, older fiancee who's desperate for attention from a bad boy. And Joyce would have been giving marching orders to Kenji, who would have followed because he knew where his bread was buttered and it sure as poo poo beats delving into a nightmare basement.

Anyway, I'm far afield from what I was originally talking about. Joyce doesn't come from a nice place. People are supposed to fit into certain roles within the fascist hierarchy. If they do not fit, they are broken and remade in order to fit. Those who can't be remade in that new order are just used up and discarded. So we'll see how Joyce takes to being continually hollowed out as everything he believes in is proven to be a lie. Like someone leaving a cult, Joyce is going to have to relearn a lot of things and find a new identity, because his old one wasn't particularly good for him and is actively falling apart.

It takes time though. Revelations are rare. What's more common is a creeping understanding that everything you knew was wrong and that your life is a lie. Not accepted whole, but a as a slow collapse.

I really love Joyce as a character. He's got a lot of narrative threads woven into him that you don't see often in fiction and even as part of the supporting cast, I put a lot of time and care into making him seem real.

Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Sep 15, 2019

Dr Subterfuge
Aug 31, 2005

TIME TO ROC N' ROLL
So if I’m picking up what you’re putting down, Joyce’s older brother died somewhere around fourteen years ago?

Ice Phisherman
Apr 12, 2007

Swimming upstream
into the sunset



Chatrapati posted:

This sort of thing makes me very uncomfortable, cheers for the warning! I guess Kenji and Joyce have even more stuff in common now. :(

So I understood that this sort of thing would make people uncomfortable. I've actually been thinking about if I wanted to write it or just not talk about that particular plot point. I talked to a number of people and got the okay, that I wasn't being gross. That's why I posted the warning.

It's supposed to hit people though. It's supposed to be hard. Cyberpunk is near future exploration about what is possible as society socially degrades, but technologically advances. It's not all shooting dudes from a speeding car, pink mohawk fluttering. I'm embracing that a bit more because it's fun as hell, but I also want people to stop and consider where we're headed as a species. As people in general advance our tech, many countries with different ethical stances are going to get ahold of that tech and apply it in awful ways.

It's supposed to be a get punch, but I'm going to try and explore it with as much authenticity and care as I possibly can. I'm very interested in Joyce's particular arc and I've interviewed a number of people I know who have lived a piece of his story and read a lot of real world accounts. I'm intensely interested in what his story looks like in a meaningful, authentic way as much as I'm interested in getting any detail right, small or large. To take my time and move with care with the subject matter. And I've been thinking about this particular plot point and what's beyond it since I went to Seattle this summer. Not all of the time, but occasionally poking at it, letting it percolate and generally mature.

I hope people trust me enough and understand my reading that I'm not just doing this for shock value. That there's a general purpose to it for story, themes and character. And that I'm not just going to shove your faces in awful stuff for no reason.

Dr Subterfuge posted:

So if I’m picking up what you’re putting down, Joyce’s older brother died somewhere around fourteen years ago?

Something like that. Maybe sixteen, yeah.

VanSandman
Feb 16, 2011
SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER
I wonder if Joyce could go toxic? I mean, if EVERYTHING is a lie, perhaps peace is a lie, and you said toxic shamans get power from transgression....
If Joyce wanted to go loud, could he? Would he be strong if he did?

Ice Phisherman
Apr 12, 2007

Swimming upstream
into the sunset



VanSandman posted:

I wonder if Joyce could go toxic? I mean, if EVERYTHING is a lie, perhaps peace is a lie, and you said toxic shamans get power from transgression....
If Joyce wanted to go loud, could he? Would he be strong if he did?

So the way I imagine a person going toxic is in three ways.

First is to go for a toxic aspect of his spirit mentor, Dove. Him fully embracing negative peace for example, using violence to suppress people into submission and that being his overarching goal.

The second would be to embrace an actual toxic mentor spirit. Say like a plague mentor spirit. Something inherently nasty.

The third would be for him to transgress and break taboo in some way and not get help. Have it just twist him up inside. Or perhaps he'd get addicted to the rush of power that comes with violation. So instead of quietly contemplating to increase his magic and skill, he could do something that he views as unforgivable and gain power immediately. This was what Pinchface was doing.

The third is actually based on shamanic tradition and plugs into human psychology. Breaking taboo is incredibly powerful as a social force for creating tribe. It's not magical, but there is a serious power to it that's difficult to explain.

Toughy
Nov 29, 2004

KAVODEL! KAVODEL!

Tell Joyce as gently as possible.

1. I'd want to know the truth

2. Julie is already keeping too many/ a major secret.

3. This might be the that last straw for Joyce to help him rebel from Tir with the Patel sisters.

Runa
Feb 13, 2011

Hold on, changing my vote.

Runa fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Sep 16, 2019

JUST MAKING CHILI
Feb 14, 2008
Backstory suggestion: Joyce’s parents had an heir, a spare, and Joyce. And both the older boys died and Joyce was gender reassigned at a young age. And there needs to be a reason that his parents didn’t just keep trying for a male heir instead of doing what they did to Joyce.

mcclay
Jul 8, 2013

Oh dear oh gosh oh darn
Soiled Meat

JUST MAKING CHILI posted:

Backstory suggestion: Joyce’s parents had an heir, a spare, and Joyce. And both the older boys died and Joyce was gender reassigned at a young age. And there needs to be a reason that his parents didn’t just keep trying for a male heir instead of doing what they did to Joyce.

I think its as simple as Joyce was the spare and when his brother died they needed a new male heir, as well as a way to tie the Patel family, which had only daughters, to them. Since I don't think Tir is a LGBTQ paradise I assume that a lesbian coupling would've been shoot down, if not by the country at large then by the conservative Patels, so they turned their spare girl child in a male heir would could marry a noble girl.

Deadmeat5150
Nov 21, 2005

OLD MAN YELLS AT CLAN
Julie tells him... gently. Julie goes and gets an adult Although she'll probably gently caress it up, to be honest. She doesn't exactly have a great track record as far as social stuff goes, although she does seem to fail upward. This is a hell of an ethics dilemma. What's worse is my first instinct was to say, "Destroy him," because I honestly despise Joyce as a character. Just thinking about all the things he's pulled makes me feel slimy and gross, and what's worse is that he's smug about it. Even after the entire revelation of everything is lovely, he stills seems to be in it for him, nobody else. But that's me, that's not what I believe Julie would really do.

Although I do see where this is heading, I think. Because after the dick-kicks of all the other poo poo happening to him, to drop this on him is practically a one way ticket for him to start sorting his gun collection by barrel flavor. It's a state of mind I sadly know far too well. This is the sort of thing that can break a mind, especially one as fragile as Joyce's.

Edit: After some discussion I'm changing my vote

Deadmeat5150 fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Sep 16, 2019

Runa
Feb 13, 2011

Deadmeat5150 posted:

Julie tells him... gently. Julie goes and gets an adult Although she'll probably gently caress it up, to be honest. She doesn't exactly have a great track record as far as social stuff goes, although she does seem to fail upward. This is a hell of an ethics dilemma. What's worse is my first instinct was to say, "Destroy him," because I honestly despise Joyce as a character. Just thinking about all the things he's pulled makes me feel slimy and gross, and what's worse is that he's smug about it. Even after the entire revelation of everything is lovely, he stills seems to be in it for him, nobody else. But that's me, that's not what I believe Julie would really do.

Although I do see where this is heading, I think. Because after the dick-kicks of all the other poo poo happening to him, to drop this on him is practically a one way ticket for him to start sorting his gun collection by barrel flavor. It's a state of mind I sadly know far too well. This is the sort of thing that can break a mind, especially one as fragile as Joyce's.

Edit: After some discussion I'm changing my vote

You've changed my vote too.

I don't want Joyce to die after Kenji went to the trouble to put that jerk on a better path.


Actually in light of IceP's immediate next post down the line, I'm going to go back to Tell Joyce gently.

Runa fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Sep 17, 2019

Gun Jam
Apr 11, 2015
Lemme start off by saying - I'm not a trans, nor have a relevant education in either transition, nor child development. So, I'm probably wrong, and shouldn't be doing this.
But...

First, if Joyce got "pumped full of growth hormones" since age two, how is that he's effeminate? The amount of Testosterone should (if I understood correctly. Big if) result in the very opposite - being masculine, namely. Or did they decide to half-rear end the HRT part, deciding that if the SRS is good, they don't care about the rest?

Two, there's the brain part. If nothing was done with it, then Joyce would still have a woman brain* - and would suffer from gender dysphoria. But this may not be the case with Shadowrun future tech. So, can they also change someone's gender if they want (or, in other words - can they turn trans-to-cis?), or the answer is still no?**

Three, if the answer still no - so, I'm guessing that Joyce's lacking the knowledge (because parents) to put down in words that weird feeling, and be able to take the red pill?

And lastly, Voting:
Ask him about if he know about a surgery that he was little. Don't specify what.
If answer's no, "do you think your parents keep this away from you, or you just never asked?" -I'm not sure that straight-up asking them is a good idea.
In addition, note hormonal imbalance - get/show a blood test. Tell it's may not bother him, and could be normal - but he may want a closer look. The point is, that he'll look, note the imbalance, and ask himself why. How it's connects to a secret surgery. See if he can make the dots.
E:or just give him the results, "if you want to look at it". Don't note anything.
And lastly, get an adult. Because seriously, this is way above our head.

*I'm guessing that either "we did a brain scan and discovered that you'll be probably trans, so we helped you" or "by sheer coincidence, they were right" is too happy-sunshine scenario
**I believe David Reimer would be relevant here?

EDIT : Don't tell him, to be clear. Think it's very bad form, to out (is it the right terminology, this case) someone like that.
Also, it's 3 AM, brain is dead. Be moer coherent later.

Gun Jam fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Sep 17, 2019

Deadmeat5150
Nov 21, 2005

OLD MAN YELLS AT CLAN

Gun Jam posted:

Lemme start off by saying - I'm not a trans, nor have a relevant education in either transition, nor child development. So, I'm probably wrong, and shouldn't be doing this.
But...

First, if Joyce got "pumped full of growth hormones" since age two, how is that he's effeminate? The amount of Testosterone should (if I understood correctly. Big if) result in the very opposite - being masculine, namely. Or did they decide to half-rear end the HRT part, deciding that if the SRS is good, they don't care about the rest?

Two, there's the brain part. If nothing was done with it, then Joyce would still have a woman brain* - and would suffer from gender dysphoria. But this may not be the case with Shadowrun future tech. So, can they also change someone's gender if they want (or, in other words - can they turn trans-to-cis?), or the answer is still no?**

Three, if the answer still no - so, I'm guessing that Joyce's lacking the knowledge (because parents) to put down in words that weird feeling, and be able to take the red pill?

And lastly, Voting:
Ask him about if he know about a surgery that he was little. Don't specify what.
If answer's no, "do you think your parents keep this away from you, or you just never asked?" -I'm not sure that straight-up asking them is a good idea.
In addition, note hormonal imbalance - get/show a blood test. Tell it's may not bother him, and could be normal - but he may want a closer look. The point is, that he'll look, note the imbalance, and ask himself why. How it's connects to a secret surgery. See if he can make the dots.
And lastly, get an adult. Because seriously, this is way above our head.

*I'm guessing that either "we did a brain scan and discovered that you'll be probably trans, so we helped you" or "by sheer coincidence, they were right" is too happy-sunshine scenario
**I believe David Reimer would be relevant here?

They gave him balls that function.

Ice Phisherman
Apr 12, 2007

Swimming upstream
into the sunset



Gun Jam posted:

First, if Joyce got "pumped full of growth hormones" since age two, how is that he's effeminate? The amount of Testosterone should (if I understood correctly. Big if) result in the very opposite - being masculine, namely. Or did they decide to half-rear end the HRT part, deciding that if the SRS is good, they don't care about the rest?

Focus less on how he isn't masculine and more on the consequences of him still being androgynous/effeminate despite top of the line treatment. That despite all of that treatment and all of that money flung at Joyce, this was the best science could produce. A reminder that Joyce is not physically dysfunctional and most likely Joy as a teenager would be extremely petite and feminine if this is what a sex change means with state of the art tech.

And his spirit mentor is one of peace as well. I imagine his father being absolutely furious that his son isn't working out like he hoped he was. That the next generation will be "weak and feminine", because fascism really only appreciates women for their ability to have children and men are absolutely valued for their outward masculinity. Really surface level stuff.

A lot of people deal with being perceived as failures or outsiders respond differently. Instead of checking out, Joyce bought in harder to prove himself.

quote:

Two, there's the brain part. If nothing was done with it, then Joyce would still have a woman brain.

So gender dysphoria for the trans community is a term of some debate. The term is a medical diagnosis and it has to do with a brain disorder, as specified in the DSM, or " Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders". Remember that gay and lesbian people were also considered mentally mentally disordered as well in the DSM. That was removed in 1973. Inclusion or removal from the DSM is a pretty big deal, because if you're considered mentally ill, you should technically be able to get certain rights. Those haven't appeared in a lot of cases and are actively getting rolled back in others. However, due to stigma around mental illness, the get viewed through an extra negative lens.

It's complicated and I don't understand all of the angles yet. Trying to get a hold on them through research though.

Being trans isn't a new thing in just the same way that being gay or lesbian isn't a new thing. In many cultures throughout history, being trans was accepted. The Lakota spring to mind as having a place for trans people historically. Crazy Horse used to hang out with one in particular if I'm remembering my history. We have hangups with trans people as an identity here stateside primarily due to religion and prudishness. And I do not believe that being trans is worthy of a medical diagnosis any more than being gay or lesbian is. That gender being binary isn't true and that we have instead historically abused and broken people until they "fit" extremely narrow, hetero-normative roles or die.

If you take a look at history at all, you'll find that cultures far older than ours were able to accept the LGBTQ+ crowd. Even cultures that we would consider primitive. And that it was the spread of patriarchal societies and religions that harmed these people.

When we talk about Joyce, I'll drop what I'm reading at the moment in the discussion.

https://psmag.com/social-justice/take-gender-identity-disorder-dsm-68308

quote:

Three, if the answer still no - so, I'm guessing that Joyce's lacking the knowledge (because parents) to put down in words that weird feeling, and be able to take the red pill?

So Joyce discovering that he's had his bodily autonomy violated, that he's been lied to for his entire life by his family, his family's retainers and much of the medical community that he sees is going to suck. Joyce is going to enter that stage that's pretty commonly refered to as "baby trans", referring to someone young who is very new to being trans. The same goes for being say, a "baby gay". So before he ever thinks about transitioning, he has a very hard, very long period of soul searching ahead of him. While the metroplex is accepting to the point of not giving a poo poo, Tir Tairngire, as a hyper-masculine fascist country, would absolutely leave him with negative feelings about being trans, even if his transition was against his will and hidden.

Deadmeat5150 posted:

Julie tells him... gently. Julie goes and gets an adult Although she'll probably gently caress it up, to be honest. She doesn't exactly have a great track record as far as social stuff goes, although she does seem to fail upward. This is a hell of an ethics dilemma. What's worse is my first instinct was to say, "Destroy him," because I honestly despise Joyce as a character. Just thinking about all the things he's pulled makes me feel slimy and gross, and what's worse is that he's smug about it. Even after the entire revelation of everything is lovely, he stills seems to be in it for him, nobody else. But that's me, that's not what I believe Julie would really do.

Although I do see where this is heading, I think. Because after the dick-kicks of all the other poo poo happening to him, to drop this on him is practically a one way ticket for him to start sorting his gun collection by barrel flavor. It's a state of mind I sadly know far too well. This is the sort of thing that can break a mind, especially one as fragile as Joyce's.

So while I get where you're coming from, I am not putting suicide or an attempted suicide as an option for Joyce. That would be a depressing as hell end for Joyce as a character and I don't really want to write about that for several reasons. First, again, depressing as hell. But second, suicide rates for trans people are through the roof. Trans men, the female to male, actually have the highest attempted suicide rate at about 53%. That actually ran counter to what I expected as I'm more familiar with abuse towards trans women, male to female.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/pride-interview-travis-salway-hiv-suicide-canada_n_5cc203a4e4b066119de3ac1d

So cyberpunk is the near future gritty as gently caress exploration of what's coming. And honestly, if the US doesn't descend into horrible fascism, the trend for trans people has been getting better over time. It's still really bad and there have been backslides because Trump is the racist, sexist, fascist grandpa that no one wants to invite to the wedding but always comes and ruins it anyway.

So if you're a trans man, suicide is a serious problem above and beyond already awful suicide rates. If you're say, a trans woman of color, the chances of you getting murdered just skyrockets. Though it's anecdotal, while I was talking to a trans friend of mine lately, the city where she lives has changed a lot over the past ten years. The harassment used to be commonplace, every day or few days. People yelling at her, threatening her, sometimes physically, swerving in a car to pretend to hit her which was particularly distressing for me to hear, I can't imagine being her. But now she can go weeks or months without harassment and that harassment is far lighter in context.

What's also contextual is that in many parts of the country, that harassment still exists which is why many trans people are fleeing to states with things like basic labor protections so you can't be discriminated against in the workplace. That's what comes to mind off the top of my head.

What I have in mind for Joyce would be the side of being new to being trans, that baby trans state that people don't really see and that isn't really talked about in fiction to my knowledge. And I have a few paths laid out depending on rolls and thread choices that reflect the current experience as related by my reading and friend. So while suicide is part of the current trans experience, it's distressingly common and I don't want to go there. What I'm more interested in is showing the alternatives and what they look like.

Also remember that as lovely as Joyce is, he's still a product of his environment. Contact with other people who are willing to tell him no and expose him to new ideas could very well change him. He's at a formative age where he's not done establishing his identity yet and his identity as it is connected to Tir took some serious hits. This is going to be another.

mcclay posted:

I think its as simple as Joyce was the spare and when his brother died they needed a new male heir, as well as a way to tie the Patel family, which had only daughters, to them. Since I don't think Tir is a LGBTQ paradise I assume that a lesbian coupling would've been shoot down, if not by the country at large then by the conservative Patels, so they turned their spare girl child in a male heir would could marry a noble girl.

The way that I imagine it is that Tir values men more than women, so as poor nobility, at least for their rank, they can't afford to allow money to flow out of the family. They need money to flow in. The Sartels have the title and the political access. The Patels have the money. Krupa is seen as more obedient and she has magic, which would enhance the prestige of the marriage. So she's tapped as the choice. And against all odds, Joyce and Krupa fall in love, because marriage among the rich is primarily economic and to bind kinship groups together for purposes of influence. It's a young love, but still, that's very rare in political marriages, but it's still first and foremost a political marriage, even if they're still only betrothed. When Joyce develops his magic late, he gets tapped to go to Blake Island as a kind of cultural ambassador with Krupa to assist him.

The Sartels are considered poor for their rank. Providing for more children would be difficult unless they want to do the noble thing and buy a commission in the army. Remember that they're elves. Mon and dad aren't going to die of old age. The wealth won't transfer because the old usually don't die. It really fucks over the kids and the young in general. There's not a lot of point in having a ton of kids if you're a noble. They're active drains on wealth. And over a long enough time, I see the youth actively resenting the first genners for holding all of the wealth.

Anyway, I've got the next scene rolled up and sketched out and it'll determine how Joyce deals with this going forward.

Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Sep 17, 2019

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Gun Jam
Apr 11, 2015

Ice Phisherman posted:

Focus less on how he isn't masculine and more on the consequences of him still being androgynous/effeminate despite top of the line treatment.

My point was that with top of the line treatment it should have been otherwise. But as I said, I don't know enough about this topics, and it takes a back-seat to story consideration so I'm gonna file it under nitpick, and move on.

Ice Phisherman posted:

snip dysphoria
Okay, to rephase : with modern-day technology, if you just gave Joyce hormones and a sex change, he'll just be a trans-woman in a man's body.
But shadowrun got better tech. Can choose the baby's sex at pregnancy and the like. So, it's worth asking, if they can change it so Joyce would be a man, and not feel the need to change back?
Related, and what if Joyce would be preferring men "naturally" - given this is more likely than not, his parents would have done something about it when deciding to change the sex. Now, IRL, they can't, but in SR...
Guessing what I'm trying to ask about - "Conversion therapy". Were they capable of trying to do that to baby Joyce (both from gender, and sexuality perspective) with future-tech?
From the rest of your post, I think the answer is NO, but I rather ask.
(Why I ask this? To see if Joyce got problem with only the "principle of things" [You had no right do change me like that!], but aside from that is fine as a man, or if they also would want to de-transition)

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