|
Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Actually it does. Because the Federation is meant to represent this great hope, this ideal of what society could be. It's what the fans and the creators haven't shut the gently caress up about since the beginning. But then some schlubs thought it'd be cool and edgy to put a dark secret at the core of all that. The older I get the more I find it hard to argue with this point. The fact that Section 31 was included in the loving Federation charter sort of invalidates the whole "we're striving not to be assholes" thing when they have a secret organization from the very start whose job it is to go around doing horrible things for the so called greater good Like, props to DS9 for at least coming right out and stating that poo poo is Bad with a capital B but everything since then doesn't portray them that way; hell in Enterprise the Section 31 dude ended up being helpful at one point. I mean, is it realistic that an organization like that would actually exist? Yeah, but it's antithetical to the setting, and depressing as hell, and makes for lovely stories in the hands of crappy writers
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 19:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 16:49 |
|
|
I like to think the line in the character that "authorized" section 31 is something like "The federation may maintain an intelligence service to protect it from enemies both internal and external"
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 19:31
|
|
|
Section 31 works as a commentary, intentional or unintentional, on the collapse of American common sense and public morality that led to the erection of a surveillance state by the turn of the millennium. What was so self-evidently wrong in the 60s or even the 80s that it could be completely ignored in a positive vision of the future, was by the 90s a new moral quandary that we’ll always have to wrestle with and by the 00s a moral ambiguity that might be good or might be bad but is inextricably part of our society and can not be changed. In that sense it wouldn’t be “wrong” for Discovery to include it. Sure it’s “betraying Gene’s vision” but who cares at this point? Certainly not the STD showrunners.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 19:39
|
|
|
Tighclops posted:The fact that Section 31 was included in the loving Federation charter sort of invalidates the whole "we're striving not to be assholes" thing when they have a secret organization from the very start whose job it is to go around doing horrible things for the so called greater good Considering the manner of secrecy that they've kept for so long, do you really think that Section 31 is *explicitly* given powers in the Federation charter? It's obvious that they're taking liberties with interpretation.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 19:47
|
|
|
Gene Roddenberry was an oaf and nobody should care about what he would have thought about anything.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 19:49
|
|
|
thexerox123 posted:Considering the manner of secrecy that they've kept for so long, do you really think that Section 31 is *explicitly* given powers in the Federation charter? It's obvious that they're taking liberties with interpretation. This would be my interpretation if I were writing a story about them, but I never got that impression from the shows Shibawanko posted:Gene Roddenberry was an oaf and nobody should care about what he would have thought about anything. Yes. The whole "positive vision of the future" thing shouldn't be solely attributed to him and is worth keeping around in it's own right
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 19:52
|
|
|
I just don't think the fact that some people were still dicks or xenophobes at the era depicted at the end of ENT invalidates the hopeful message if the federation at all. The fact that a few people operate against the common good had been part of Trek since the first admiral. People alive and in power at the founding were literally one generation removed from squabbling warlords and first contact.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 19:53
|
|
|
Note that the shiningly utopian Culture lives under essentially omnipotent and omniscient machine surveillance that is present everywhere but inside their minds (and this only due to disgust at the inside of an inferior mind, explicitly paralleled w bestiality)
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 19:55
|
|
|
The Culture is not Star Trek.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 20:00
|
|
|
I'm 100% on board with Lovely Joe Stalin on this issue. Section 31 is just that stupid black helicopter X-Files conspiracy poo poo that was hot in the 90s. It's tied with that dumb Roswell episode for the biggest thing that dates DS9 to the 90s. The most irritating thing is that it's spawned a really terrible idea among some of the fanbase that "well, actually, Section 31 is necessary, and besides don't the other space nations have their own super-secret intelligence agencies anyway??"
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 20:08
|
|
|
The next time some mother gently caress mentions the culture in a Trek thread I’m gonna freak the gently caress out. I can’t think of a more intrusive fandom. It’s like the marginally more grown up version of bringing up Warhammer 40K characters whenever everyone is discussing whether Master Chief could beat Doom Guy in a fight
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 20:10
|
|
|
There were what, 10 Culture books? Like 3 of them are any good. At most. That's not a great track record.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 20:19
|
|
|
skasion posted:everyone is discussing whether Master Chief could beat Doom Guy in a fight A single SC Drone could take out both of them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 20:19
|
|
|
Mulva posted:There were what, 10 Culture books? Like 3 of them are any good. That's not a great track record. About the same as Star Trek's achieved.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 20:20
|
|
|
Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Better than Star Trek shows. Sounds like someone isn’t counting the animated series
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 20:21
|
|
|
Furries, the true legacy of Roddenberry.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 20:22
|
|
|
Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Furries, the true legacy of Roddenberry. Thread title?
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 20:25
|
|
|
thexerox123 posted:Considering the manner of secrecy that they've kept for so long, do you really think that Section 31 is *explicitly* given powers in the Federation charter? It's obvious that they're taking liberties with interpretation.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 20:25
|
|
|
Lovely Joe Stalin posted:About the same as Star Trek's achieved. Nah, Star Trek bats around .500, the Culture is well below that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 20:28
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:Sloan says as much in Inquisition, just not outright The real damning thing is that if Section 31 really is a criminally renegade organization, Starfleet and the Federation should be flipping the gently caress out at the revelation that there's a loving cult running around outside of oversight or accountability to anyone in the chain of command. There ought to be investigations and boards of inquiry and courts-martial. Instead Sisko says that when he tried to report it he basically just got stonewalled.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 20:34
|
|
|
The TNG-era upper echelons of Starfleet are so batshit nuts they got infiltrated by a megalomaniacal invasion force of brain possessing alien parasites that make you eat worms and literally no one more important than Picard was like “hmm seems suspicious”. If you’re not in on that party or the unaccountable amoral shadow state, you’re probably a Romulan spy.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 20:38
|
|
|
Thom12255 posted:The DS9 characters live up to that hope and beat S31 though. They couldn't have ended the war if they hadn't. They also would have straight-up lost the war if Section 31 hadn't infected the changelings with the disease, so...
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 20:48
|
|
|
Section 31 isn’t authorized by the Federation charter, it’s authorized by the Starfleet charter. Section 31 is perfectly in keeping with a bunch of flawed military brass wanting to exert influence with or without the elected government’s knowledge.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 22:07
|
|
|
Big Mean Jerk posted:Section 31 isn’t authorized by the Federation charter, it’s authorized by the Starfleet charter. Section 31 is perfectly in keeping with a bunch of flawed military brass wanting to exert influence with or without the elected government’s knowledge.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 22:18
|
|
|
thexerox123 posted:Considering the manner of secrecy that they've kept for so long, do you really think that Section 31 is *explicitly* given powers in the Federation charter? It's obvious that they're taking liberties with interpretation. This has always been my take on it. I was about to say that I don't understand all the hate for Section 31 (I mean as a writing choice, not in terms of whether Section 31 is a good thing), but then, it really does depend on your take and it's never really spelled out definitively. Like, to assume something is true because Sloan of all people said it? Umm... well ok if that's your take. It certainly isn't mine. Hipster_Doofus fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Jan 19, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 22:23
|
|
|
Lovely Joe Stalin posted:which pisses on everything Roddenberry set out to create You know that hungover Zephram Cochrane rant in First Contact about how he built the Phoenix not because he had a great vision of the future, but because he wanted money and women? That was inserted because it's exactly all Roddenberry ever cared about from day one.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 23:24
|
|
|
I’m really curious as to what the Mirror Discovery is getting up to in the Prime universe. They’ll have probably won the war singlehandedly by the time the real guys get back home.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2018 04:41
|
|
|
The_Doctor posted:I’m really curious as to what the Mirror Discovery is getting up to in the Prime universe. They’ll have probably won the war singlehandedly by the time the real guys get back home. I wonder if they'll even have the time to deal with them this season -- looks like we're going to be in the Mirror Universe for at least two more episodes, and they'd be fools to not have Emperor Georgiou as their final villain this season given the season's structure.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2018 04:49
|
|
|
The writer in After Trek strongly implied they'll address the ISS Discovery's shenanigans in the prime universe in some capacity.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2018 05:08
|
|
|
The_Doctor posted:I’m really curious as to what the Mirror Discovery is getting up to in the Prime universe. They’ll have probably won the war singlehandedly by the time the real guys get back home. Smash cut to the entire Mirror Discovery crew stuffed into a holding cell somewhere.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2018 05:09
|
|
|
I imagine the ISS crew learning to relax for the first time in their lives. Not having to look out for who’s going to stab them in the back all the time must be a relief, because the Mirror Universe honestly sounds exhausting.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2018 05:23
|
|
|
Even so, there is still going to be at least one person on board who sees everyone relaxing as a chance to kill the captain and take over.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2018 05:25
|
|
|
Echo Chamber posted:The writer in After Trek strongly implied they'll address the ISS Discovery's shenanigans in the prime universe in some capacity. I'd watch an episode of the adventures of Captain Killy.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2018 05:42
|
|
|
Mulva posted:There were what, 10 Culture books? Like 3 of them are any good. At most. That's not a great track record. Which ones, numerically? I'm asking for a bored friend who likes to read. PM me if necessary. You know, this whole thing about the Mirror Universe being "like ours, but evil and also everyone important to your personal storyline is still there and unmurdered" reminds me a little bit of Bright's world, which is basically "real life in 2017 Los Angeles but with elves and orcs and that one Centaur dude." Kind of like the Mirror Universe, if you think about it. How the hell did such a different reality dovetail so closely to the real one? I guess suspension of disbelief is important for these kinds of stories... a capacity for which fans of Scifi/Fantasy have to varying degrees.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2018 06:51
|
|
|
By TOS standards this is gritty hard sci fi, I want to see a political crisis w gangster planet on the edge of war with Roman planet
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2018 06:53
|
|
|
IIS Discovery formed an alliance with the Klingons and wiped out the entire federation.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2018 07:03
|
|
|
Tighclops posted:This would be my interpretation if I were writing a story about them, but I never got that impression from the shows Really? I never got the impression that it was anything but highly unofficial and dubious and self-justification without actually being supported or even known of by virtually anyone in Starfleet. I mean, none of the starfleet officers, not Sisko or O'Brien (you know what I mean by 'officers') or even Dax (who had high-level diplomatic knowledge and contacts worth lifetimes of experience) had ever even heard of them, let alone knew that they existed in any sort of official capacity whatsoever. As the show went on, nothing suggested they had any official power later on, either, but rather, some corrupted officers in other departments, performing other roles, sometimes supported their unofficial operations, because corruption and rot spreads in a system when left unchecked. The closest we get to official action on the behalf of S31's operations would be when Bashir is ordered by Starfleet Medical not to talk about Odo being infected with the Founders Disease, which I interpreted as their having pieced together what happened (S31 having been somewhat exposed by Bashir and Sisko since their first appearance, so the higher-ups at least know they exist by then) and deciding, in a very flawed decision not unlike Sisko's decision in Pale Moonlight, that they can live with what S31 did to the Founders, because it might win the war for them, even if they weren't responsible for it. Ross does similarly with the Romulan senator, insofar as Sloane's actions there weren't official starfleet operations, but Ross decided that the ends justified the means (again, highly flawed decision), so he played along with the unofficial actions taken, rather than it all being planned out in some official briefing room somewhere. Section 31 is bullshit, it's a BS interpretation of some obscure line in the Starfleet charter, taken out of context and providing them the self-justification some rear end in a top hat Starfleet Intelligence types feel they need, when they go rogue, to be hard men and women making hard decisions for the good of Starfleet, as an illegal organization not officially affiliated with the Federation in any way. Because humans aren't actually perfect, even in the utopia of Star Trek, some of them make the terrible mistake of joining S31 "for the good of the Federation", even as they can't lie to themselves completely, proven by their not being able to pretend that what they're doing could be done openly, because they know they'd be slapped into penal colonies by actual Federation security so fast it'd make their heads spin.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2018 07:10
|
|
|
Discovery needs to encounter more giant green space hands and capricious godlike entities.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2018 07:17
|
|
|
CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:Which ones, numerically? I'm asking for a bored friend who likes to read. PM me if necessary. I'm of the opinion that there's only a couple of poor ones, but Use of Weapons is probably a good place to start. Excession is generally seen as one of the best, but it also throws you a bit into the deep end what with how the ships and minds talk to each other.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2018 07:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 16:49 |
|
|
I don't like use of weapons.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2018 07:58
|
|
