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Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012


Zesty posted:

What’s so bad about this? The only difference between playing it before rather than after the votes is the cracks form at this tribal council. People go back to the beach potentially miffed at their allies rather than focused entirely on the guy they voted for. It’s good for the audience.

That would've been true if they hadn't come into this tribal council with a backup plan, but they did. I think you can tell by the lack of any real panic once Ben's idol popped out that everyone already knew what plan B was, all Ben did was make sure it went into effect. He turned the vote from what was likely a 3-2 Ben/Ashley split into a unanimous Ashley boot.

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ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

I mean if Ben really wanted to sow chaos he'd have tried to engineer a Mike-Ashley split, but yeah. All Ben really did was allow Chrissy to have no regrets about her 'vote Ashley' vendetta. And it makes sense that, if Chrissy/Ryan/Devon was a solid bloc, then you'd easily keep Mike over Ashley, who is at least an immunity threat.

Zesty
Jan 17, 2012



Tortured By Flan

https://twitter.com/RealDaveWright/...310932331921408

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988




DurosKlav posted:

Guess you guys should have kept a closer watch on Ben. Bet you dont make that mistake again.
I don't think everyone following him around is necessarily the move, because even if you're following him when he finds that clue, what are you gonna do? It lets you know he has the idol but it's not likely to stop him from finding it and saving himself, because he's at the point where he has nothing to lose from everyone seeing him pick up the clue or idol right in front of them.

The move is every single one of you out there combing that beach looking for idols. Maybe one person shadowing Ben, but the focus being having all eyes out there.

I'm with those that hate the idol being recycled episode after episode especially this late in the game. I think I'd prefer them to stop rehiding at 6 and definitely by 5. That being said, all the non-Ben players were straight up negligent here, so that's on them.

They should have voted out Mike, not Ashley, I think. And that goes for Chrissy and Ryan pretty much too. Now they're guaranteed to be at the end with one of Devon, Mike, or Ben, all of whom I think dunk all over dweeby Ryan and fun-hating Chrissy.

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988




ApplesandOranges posted:

Survivor's changed the way it uses idols by having more of them (since you get more three-tribe games now), slipping more clues to them at rewards, 'super idols' and apparently letting people play them before the votes are even cast now. It's one thing to go in with the idol around your neck since it's a 'will they won't they' situation, but letting people pre-insure themselves is another.
I'm kind of interested in this question. Like is it cool that Ben played his idol before the votes or is that something that shouldn't be allowed?

Is it going to catch on more, because it forces players to come up with a new boot there at Tribal (even though here they probably already had a back-up ready)?

Is it Ben weakening his own position and the position of all future idol-holders because now they can't bluff that they're going to play the idol and then hold onto it anymore?

You can probably create a little more wiggle room by saying you're going to play it but making them leave votes on you in case you're bluffing, and then playing it anyway... I don't know.

Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012


Ryan, hilariously, is possibly experiencing every Survivor superfan's second worst nightmare; finding out at the end of the game that you were the goat all along.

(The worst nightmare is obviously being first one out.)

Zerilan
Jan 11, 2008


I think part of my annoyance with another idol play last night is that the editing of it where Ben finds it at basically the last second just made it feel really contrived even by survivor editing standards.

Generic American
Mar 15, 2012

I love my Peng


I'm not really a fan of how Ben was allowed to play that idol. I mean, doesn't that just completely neuter any potential for a bluff? If you whip out an idol to flash around but don't play it immediately before the vote like Ben just did, that now seems like an obvious signal that you're not ACTUALLY going to play it.

Pinterest Mom
Jun 9, 2009



Generic American posted:

I'm not really a fan of how Ben was allowed to play that idol. I mean, doesn't that just completely neuter any potential for a bluff? If you whip out an idol to flash around but don't play it immediately before the vote like Ben just did, that now seems like an obvious signal that you're not ACTUALLY going to play it.

Yeah. Hopefully that was a one time thing and next season/year they change the rules to prevent that.

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988




Fast Luck posted:

They should have voted out Mike, not Ashley, I think. And that goes for Chrissy and Ryan pretty much too. Now they're guaranteed to be at the end with one of Devon, Mike, or Ben, all of whom I think dunk all over dweeby Ryan and fun-hating Chrissy.
Yeah, as I think about it more, the one person this move made the most sense for is... Devon, actually! Despite being Ashley's tightest ally.

He's trading one ally and goat for two. He's now in a majority of 3 at final 5, and both Ben and Mike are realistic enough targets ahead of him that he should be able to expect Chrissy and Ryan to keep their word. Even if he burned a jury vote by throwing Ashley overboard, he should be able to beat Chrissy and Ryan, and he may still be able to win Ashley's vote back.

I think it wasn't as good a move for Chrissy and Ryan. This is from an outsider's perspective, but I think they needed Ashley at F3 with them. If they'd been able to cut Ben here (obviously they couldn't, but if), you'd have Ryan/Chrissy and Devon/Ashley with Mike as the swing, and I think they could've pulled Mike in for the next vote to remove Devon. That leaves them positioned to pick Ashley to come with them to F3. Since Ben did have an idol, take Mike out here, and then either gamble by joining Ben to take out Devon and betting on taking Ben out at F4, or take out Ben at 5 and try to sell Ashley on making a "resume" move against Devon at F4.

SLICK GOKU BABY
Jun 12, 2001


ApplesandOranges posted:

I don't know if it is a majority. But there were quite a few opinions in Game Changers that there were too many twists and advantages already. This season was slightly better, but Ben whipping out two idols in a row for me has a different vibe than Mike Holloway continuously winning immunity. At least if someone wins immunity you had the day to discuss alternate plans.

The problem with Game Changes though was completely different. There were tons of advantages at the end because nobody played them. Nobody played their idols so at the end all the advantages from the early game were still in play.

This season is just the normal once and idol is played we put it back in the game and then the only person looking for it is the one that nobody wanted to have it... Just the fault of the other Survivors for not looking for it or making it hard for Ben to look for it.

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988




Yeah but I also didn't like it when Adam found an idol at F5 in MvX. It's too late in the game to be dropping in new idols imo. Let the players work with the situations they've made before this point instead of dropping in new protection after protection when it's crunch time

Zerilan
Jan 11, 2008


Fast Luck posted:

Yeah but I also didn't like it when Adam found an idol at F5 in MvX. It's too late in the game to be dropping in new idols imo. Let the players work with the situations they've made before this point instead of dropping in new protection after protection when it's crunch time

Pretty much my view of it. If anyone has an idol at F6 or later it should be because they've managed to hold one for awhile.

Lone Goat
Apr 16, 2003

When life gives you lemons, suplex those lemons.



Yeah also they shouldn't have immunity at f4 either

xbilkis
Apr 11, 2005

god qb
me
jay hova


Aside from all the other bad things about having too many idols, it's also boring loving TV watching someone hunt for an idol, because you know they are literally always going to find it but you still have to sit through an entire scene of it

Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012


xbilkis posted:

Aside from all the other bad things about having too many idols, it's also boring loving TV watching someone hunt for an idol, because you know they are literally always going to find it but you still have to sit through an entire scene of it

Joe didn't find his third idol and we got multiple scenes of him looking fruitlessly for it.

Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012


As far as idols go, I think the system as it is now just needs a little tweaking for it to be fine. Let there be one pre-merge idol for every starting tribe that is not rehidden when played, and one merge idol that is. Two post-merge idols is too many, despite it leading to that one amazing no votes tribal in Cambodia. Because it really does feel like they're just throwing idols at the wall at this point. If there's only one post-merge idol then you're really going to try and save it for something good, because as much as you love having it, you love your opposition NOT having it even more.

As for advantages, I like the idea of tying them to significant game events like they seem to be doing here. One advantage at the start, one at the swap, one at the merge, and one at the endgame. I also like the idea of use-them-or-lose-them advantages that have to be activated when or shortly after they're found. Advantagegeddon must never be allowed to happen again.

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ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

Fast Luck posted:

Yeah but I also didn't like it when Adam found an idol at F5 in MvX. It's too late in the game to be dropping in new idols imo. Let the players work with the situations they've made before this point instead of dropping in new protection after protection when it's crunch time

Zerilan posted:

Pretty much my view of it. If anyone has an idol at F6 or later it should be because they've managed to hold one for awhile.

Amanda found one at F6 in Micronesia, and it made for great TV. Of course, things were different back then.

Also Ashley's exit press is out, and she made the good point that if she hadn't completely spurned Chrissy at the reward last episode, she might have had a chance this episode. I can't blame her too much for that one though.

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