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The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004

Booyah


STAC Goat posted:


So I assume next season is just another "Second Chances" season but with players who specifically made infamous game ending mistakes? Or something weirder?

It's all new players but somehow the ghosts of those bad decisions will be relevant.

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ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

Everyone gets a different looking stick but only one of them is a HII.

AdmiralViscen
Nov 2, 2011


Fun Shoe

I don't understand why people aren't ok with being safe by making fire but they are ok with people being safe by winning final immunity. Either way, you have skill at one facet of the game that guarantees you a F3. It still deprives the other people of someone to vote out.

Same goes for the HII. Ben saw a gap in the attentiveness of the other players and then he spent like 12 hours groping in the dark for an idol. That's a trait worthy of reward no? At least as much as solving a spinny ball puzzle?

AdmiralViscen fucked around with this message at Dec 21, 2017 around 16:15

xbilkis
Apr 11, 2005

god qb
me
jay hova


The difference between immunity and the auto-firemaking is that, with the latter, everyone is deprived the right of voting anybody out, rather than just one person.

It eliminates the primary gameplay element of Survivor in favor of making fire quickly. After 38 days, I don't understand how anyone would want that to be the sole factor in deciding who's eliminated

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


I don't know. Part of it may just be that I'm a BB viewer and its fairly similar to their Final Four dynamic so I'm probably just more used to it. Part of it is that I really do think there's so many non-vote factors in Survivor that its somewhat arbitrary to decide when and where it has to stop and voting must be the defining factor. And again, part of it is just that I scoff at the idea of "integrity of the game" and it just made for better TV than the alternative which is why I'm ok with it.

Ultimately a lot of the problems people had with this season with idols and fire came down for me as "the alternative would have been boring as gently caress so I'm fine with it." Obviously if you were really into a Devon win or really rooting against Ben you might feel differently about that since the moves helped Ben and hurt Devon.

Although I would have been very curious to see how this all played out if Devon hadn't betrayed Ashley. Maybe nothing changes but its one of the "What If?"s of the season for me.

Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012


The main problem with this twist is that in this case there was no way to account for it, and the thing Jeff was hoping to avoid is the exact specific thing that it caused; the best player of the season was screwed. So it's bad when it's a surprise. And once it's accounted for, it's just going to result in the big threats going home at five instead of four. It's going to make finales even more boring, so it's bad there too.

It's also bad because it takes a game sold as social politics and SURPRISE! Makes social politics suddenly worthless at the most crucial moment. The moment after the Devon/Dr. Mike tie where Ben looks at Devon and says "now you have to depend on those two" and Devon just says "Yeah, I do;" that should have been the first clip in his winner's montage. That's what Survivor is supposed to be about; building relationships, reading people, and knowing who to trust. Not loving firemaking.

You have no idea how much more I would respect Ben as a winner if he had clutched that final immunity. That way, he could at least say that he came through when it mattered most. But he didn't. He blew it, and then the game magically fell into his lap anyway.

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

I think the firemaking twist is okay, maybe even good (E: although I don't think it should be a twist, per se, and I guess it won't be going forward beyond next season). We've seen the person who played the best overall end up just drawing dead at the end enough times over the years (although, not as often as you'd think due to the tendency of the person in power at the end to mess up the decision on who to take to the jury) that adding a door to the Finals seems like an okay idea to me. One at least worth trying out for a few seasons.

The way that it was handled definitely is a bad look, though. I'm not sure if it could've been avoided since Ben is so perfect for the Survivor demo that the show was going to be about him until he was out anyway and the rise/fall/redemption arc of his season would be hard to pass up, and fans have really loved people who find idols. But since we know that production hides the idols, and production decides the twists it just really makes the optics of it all look bad.

Removed from that, though, I think Ben was not a decent winner. He was King Arthur going into the merge, and managed to survive after his game got blown up, and his acting skills an good timing helped cause other people to make mistakes that kept him in the game long enough to go on his idol run.

I'm not so sure that players should be getting some of the criticism they're getting for letting that idol run happen. The idea that you need to keep 24/7 watch on someone to stop them from getting an idol is not something I'm comfortable with. There are some gross implications there. And plus I imagine in order to get confessionals production is still going to do what they can to encourage players to have some alone time.

Anyway, despite a week ago not being sure who really deserved to win in my opinion, by the end it was clear that Devon had the best game, and it was ironic that he was probably screwed by a twist that would've helped against past contestants who probably would've dumped him in the F4. But in a season where no one was really THAT big of a stand out, I'm okay with Ben winning.

Rick fucked around with this message at Dec 21, 2017 around 16:37

Bigass Moth
Mar 6, 2004

I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.

he knows...


Spergatory posted:


You have no idea how much more I would respect Ben as a winner if he had clutched that final immunity. That way, he could at least say that he came through when it mattered most. But he didn't. He blew it, and then the game magically fell into his lap anyway.

I'm curious if Ben had won final immunity, who he would have done the fire challenge. Tough call, I would think Devon and Chrissy since Ryan was a goat. I think Devon may have beaten Ben, so possibly beefing that last immunity ended up being a good thing for him.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

The funny thing is that it probably worked out for the best for Ben that he lost. If he'd won, then he has three choices. He could take Chrissy, and then Devon obviously beats Ryan. He could take Devon, and then Chrissy obviously beats Ryan. He could take the obvious goat Ryan, which would probably make him look a bit worse in front of the jury. Either way, there's a decent chance Devon would be sitting next to him and it'd be pretty even in terms of the vote.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


Rick posted:

I'm not so sure that players should be getting some of the criticism they're getting for letting that idol run happen. The idea that you need to keep 24/7 watch on someone to stop them from getting an idol is not something I'm comfortable with. There are some gross implications there.
I'm not sure i follow this. I'm not disagreeing, I just don't totally get the gross implication. Unless we're just talking about people peeping on each other.

I think in a vacuum its not necessarily fair to criticize players for not following each other around. But within the specific context of this situation where Ben pulled out an idol to mess up their plans, then ran off to find another one while they all said "gee, I hope he doesn't find another one, did it again and then ran off again to them once again saying "gee, I hope he doesn't find another" and going to sleep... well at some point you have to have to ask when they actually do something to try and prevent Ben from finding idols. As Desi said, with 4 of them it should have been possible and we've seen it happen before. They just were too arrogant to do the work.

Ultimately I think the biggest flaw with most of this cast is time and time again they underestimated their opponents. I think players like Ben, Devon, and Lauren didn't do that as frequently as players like Chrissy, Ryan, Mike, and Joe but they still did it at key points and paid for it.

Spergatory posted:

The main problem with this twist is that in this case there was no way to account for it, and the thing Jeff was hoping to avoid is the exact specific thing that it caused; the best player of the season was screwed. So it's bad when it's a surprise. And once it's accounted for, it's just going to result in the big threats going home at five instead of four. It's going to make finales even more boring, so it's bad there too.

It's also bad because it takes a game sold as social politics and SURPRISE! Makes social politics suddenly worthless at the most crucial moment. The moment after the Devon/Dr. Mike tie where Ben looks at Devon and says "now you have to depend on those two" and Devon just says "Yeah, I do;" that should have been the first clip in his winner's montage. That's what Survivor is supposed to be about; building relationships, reading people, and knowing who to trust. Not loving firemaking.

You have no idea how much more I would respect Ben as a winner if he had clutched that final immunity. That way, he could at least say that he came through when it mattered most. But he didn't. He blew it, and then the game magically fell into his lap anyway.

The funny thing I think is that even though I agree that "now you have to rely on those two" is the theoretical start of Devon's winner edit in another version of this story, I also feel like I can look back at that and point back to Devon choosing Chrissy/Ryan over Ashley and then them leaving him out to fight for himself at F4. Devon made an active choice to enter into a Final 3 with a pre-existing F2 and I think there's an interpretation where that directly impacted his end game.

Which isn't to say that I think it was a direct thing and the reason for Devon's loss. But I think there's a lot of subjective interpretations in play here, not the least of them being "the best player of the season."

Bigass Moth posted:

I'm curious if Ben had won final immunity, who he would have done the fire challenge. Tough call, I would think Devon and Chrissy since Ryan was a goat. I think Devon may have beaten Ben, so possibly beefing that last immunity ended up being a good thing for him.

I think Ryan would have probably been the goat any way there and you knock out one of your actual threats. But yeah, you're right its interesting to wonder how Devon would have faired if he had beat Chrissy and gone to the end with Ben and Ryan. I don't think he's the lock others do but I definitely am not certain how it would have gone.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

I'll give the immediate post-Tribal a pass since well, you just finished Tribal and you're exhausted mentally and just want to sleep. If I was in that position I don't think I'd want to chase after Ben in the dark.

In a hypothetical Ben-Devon-Ryan vote, I'd guess that Ben scoops Joe and Mike, and Devon nets Lauren and Ashley. Hard to tell with JP/Cole, but I think Desi goes Ben and Chrissy votes Devon. So... it'd be very close to or maybe even a tie, and then Ryan votes Devon to win.

If it was Ben-Devon-Chrissy... who knows.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


Its a one after the other situation. You can give them a pass for any particular idol for some reason or another, but its really difficult to give them a blanket pass for it happening one after another like it did. At some point you need to do something.

Even they recognized that, but they decided to just try and play mind games with Ben with the fake idol instead of actually doing the tougher thing. I interpret that as laziness and arrogance as I've interpreted a lot of play this season, but however you view it it was an avoidable mistake that their own jury called them out on and they couldn't give a satisfying answer to.

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

I was thinking more literally gross, like having to keep watch while people go to the bathroom and poo poo like that. Or even only letting people out of your sight if they have to use the restroom or whatever sounds uncomfortable to me. And I'm not sure what the watcher is supposed to do really. Ben already has demonstrated he'll dig for an idol in front of everyone. I guess the watcher can dive in and beat him to it. Maybe that is the solution, to also look for the idol extremely hard 24/7 too. But that sure does sound like a lot of energy to spend when you have little food and immunity challenges to win.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

Chrissy was on all but two rewards and Ben had only been on two. She'd have way more energy to go idol-hunting than he did. I mean you have to give the guy props for how hard he looked.

I think this season was almost always in a phase where you could lament something. It was either a straight up Pagonging or the 'nobody is on Ben watch' show. The double episode was good though.

If anybody post-merge came back for another season I can imagine them being really idol-paranoid.

Tide
Mar 27, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


Saw on twitter that one of Chrissy's "S" were upside down. I'll concede that an upside down S is still and S but the font used pretty clearly shows the top of the rightside S is more narrow than the bottom.

Bigass Moth
Mar 6, 2004

I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.

he knows...


Rick posted:

I was thinking more literally gross, like having to keep watch while people go to the bathroom and poo poo like that. Or even only letting people out of your sight if they have to use the restroom or whatever sounds uncomfortable to me. And I'm not sure what the watcher is supposed to do really. Ben already has demonstrated he'll dig for an idol in front of everyone. I guess the watcher can dive in and beat him to it. Maybe that is the solution, to also look for the idol extremely hard 24/7 too. But that sure does sound like a lot of energy to spend when you have little food and immunity challenges to win.

If Ben is out looking for an idol, you go out and look too.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


Yeah. Its hard, its tedious, you're tired, its annoying. Its also a standard set by many casts before this season and didn't this group even do it with Cole? We've seen stuff like Spencer and Woo literally chasing each other through the woods and people taking turns babysitting players. Its just tough to buy "it would have been hard and gross to follow Ben", at least the 2nd or 3rd time around.

I imagine after 38 days you've established some kind of social dynamic for "I'm taking a poo poo" vs "I'm looking for an idol." If he goes running off into the woods, follow him.

Ultimately it comes back to the tone of this season. Chrissy and others played arrogantly and that breeds complacency. They were willing to gamble that they had outsmarted Ben with the fake idol instead of doing the dirty work of out hustling him. Its not the first time that dynamic played out this season. To Devon's credit he only went with it half way and got nervous about it, but he still went with it half way.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at Dec 21, 2017 around 17:50

The 7th Guest
Dec 17, 2003



Tide posted:

Saw on twitter that one of Chrissy's "S" were upside down. I'll concede that an upside down S is still and S but the font used pretty clearly shows the top of the rightside S is more narrow than the bottom.


I'm going to guess that at that point it had been like three hours and they just needed to crown someone or the thing would've taken days

There's a definite bell curve for that challenge where after a certain point, everyone's hands and feet would just get too shaky from having been at it for so long, making it impossible for a winner to come out of there because it would be endless blocks falling over.

The F5 and F4 immunity challenges should maybe have been swapped but I'm not 100% confident about that statement

The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at Dec 21, 2017 around 17:54

nexous
Jan 14, 2003


Im guessing Devon voted Ryan to try and get him second place money? Makes sense if he thought it was unanimous for Ben.

Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012


I think Devon was just being a bro. He seems like that kind of dude.

When it comes to the lack of idol stalking, I think it was just one of those cases of groupthink. One person posits something (Ben doesn't have an idol/there are no more idols in the game) and nobody wants to make waves or stand out, so everybody agrees. If there's blame to be pinpointed on someone, I put it on Chrissy. She was clearly the leader of the anti-Ben brigade and was clearly not afraid to make waves or go against the grain, so if anybody set that precedent, it was her.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


I think Chrissy definitely set the tone but everyone's still responsible for going along with it. Sure, "don't make waves" is a good rule in general in Survivor but when we're talking about Ben pulling idols out of his rear end sometimes you gotta do what's best for your game. Devon to his credit eventually did that by trying to split the vote and it saved his game.

Capsaicin
Nov 17, 2004

broof roof roof

Devon is the most likely to come back a second time from this season, yeah? Probably him, Chrissy, Mike, and Joe?

Pinterest Mom
Jun 9, 2009

In a sense, aren't all my posts worth reading?


It's a rigged system, folks.

Pinterest Mom
Jun 9, 2009

In a sense, aren't all my posts worth reading?


Capsaicin posted:

Devon is the most likely to come back a second time from this season, yeah? Probably him, Chrissy, Mike, and Joe?

Lauren fills a casting niche and gives good confessional. Chrissies are dime-a-dozen.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

Capsaicin posted:

Devon is the most likely to come back a second time from this season, yeah? Probably him, Chrissy, Mike, and Joe?

I can't really see Mike coming back, but that's just me. I think Ali and Lauren are enough of fan favourites to come back as well.

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004

Booyah


Pinterest Mom posted:

Chrissies are dime-a-dozen.

Username/post of the week contender


Chrissy, as much as I didn't like her, tied an immunity record and led a lot of decisions. She's not just some random Pinterest Mom.

Her, Joe, Devon, and Lauren I can definitely see being asked back.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

From Devon's exit press:

quote:

Holmes: Devon, you say you appreciated immunity wins over idols, then why the vote for Ryan?
Pinto: That came down to my word. I’d promised Ryan that I wouldn’t write his name down unless he made it to the finals. And he said the same to me. I strongly believe he would’ve kept his word.

Well points for loyalty I guess.

Lone Goat
Apr 16, 2003

When life gives you lemons, suplex those lemons.



Capsaicin posted:

Devon is the most likely to come back a second time from this season, yeah? Probably him, Chrissy, Mike, and Joe?

In his RHAP exit interview Devon said the only way he's playing again is if he can do Blood vs Water (or an equivalent) with his mom.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

It's hilarious that in his exit interviews Mike still thinks he had a really good chance of winning because he'd have gotten all three Healer votes. He could have argued his case all he wants but most of what the jury saw was him getting dunked on again and again. His only 'big' move was throwing Lauren's idol into the fire.

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008


What a loving travesty, giving Ben like 5 loving immunity idols and then giving him a chance to win at the last second. Of course he’d win cause he blabbered on about PTSD the whole season and this country has a bleeding heart towards veterans.

Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012


I honestly think Devon is feeling kind of raw about this whole thing and trying to hide it, or maybe just trying to not let it get to him. My mom watching him on the reunion/finale said it looked to her like he was nervous and he really wanted to say something he wasn't able to. Not sure how she got that, but she could always tell when I was lying so I trust her read on people.

Zerilan
Jan 11, 2008

I have to believe I can do this.



He played a fairly solid game that basically came down to a coin flip after a really lovely twist, then probably watched the season on TV afterwards and saw how blatantly production wanted Ben to win. Not surprised if he'd be a bit bitter of it.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

His interviews suggest he was fine with how he played (and honestly I'd buy it considering how zen he mostly was during the game). Ryan thinks it's unfair. Chrissy and Ben are fine with it.

I imagine he'd fall into the pool of 'player everyone thinks is good but won't come back even if production begged him to', and then as time goes on memory will just inflate people's perceptions of him.

Honestly, I'm fine with Ben winning and I think Devon was a better player than Ben, the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. Partly because if they came back nobody is going to let Ben survive til the merge, and while Devon would have a target on his back I think he could maneuver his way through a lot of votes.

Fedelm
Apr 21, 2013

It's called Ursa Major, not Ursula Merger. And that's not even it. That's Orion.


STAC Goat posted:

I don't think Survivor is "sacred". Its not a "sport" or anything to me. Its a TV game show and I don't have "respect" for that.

Easy dude. I simply like to see the best player win, even if it's on TV.

STAC Goat posted:

I don't "edit read" and get wound about "winner narratives" or stuff like that.

Funny, I tried really hard to follow your advice this season and not read too much into the edit, but after the last votes were read I was like "welp I guess STAC was wrong this time." There were a few nice fake-outs to throw me off, though.

Rick posted:

I'm not so sure that players should be getting some of the criticism they're getting for letting that idol run happen. The idea that you need to keep 24/7 watch on someone to stop them from getting an idol is not something I'm comfortable with.

I think it was Desi who emphasized at the final tribal, it was how many people against one? If Ben can stay up all night looking for an idol, then the alliance can at least try to take first, second, and third watch with Ben. And if he does grab an idol right in front of them, at least they would know he has it instead of just assuming that surely he can't have found another one after being left alone for hours.

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008


They shouldn’t have had so many idols to begin with I think. Ben was a big rear end in a top hat with a target on his back just like Joe. It’s a big dumb Mcguffin. There’s things you can do to spice drama up without placing idols and a “surprise” first ever twist that is obviously trying to keep a specific player in the game.

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004

Booyah


If the surprise twist was planned from the get go and they scrapped it because it would obviously let Ben in at that point, then the producers would be loving with the game and playing favorites.

I've seen no evidence that they did anything "on the fly" to favor a specific player other than follow the preset rules. We can't know for sure, obviously.

Vernacular
Nov 29, 2004



One more point on the "tailing players looking for idols" topic. Ben is a physically imposing human, moreso than the rest of the people on the island. He's also a Marine who's been through some poo poo. Do you really want to be the person standing between Ben and an idol? Or is there anything they could have practically done short of starting an actual fight to physically prevent Ben from obtaining it once he had the clue?

I mean, I guess you potentially have the knowledge that he found an idol, but 37+ days deep into the game, it's a cost/benefit analysis of just how worthwhile it really is to expend all that energy following somebody around literally 24 hours per day for knowledge of an event that is going to gently caress up your game regardless of whether or not you know about it.

STAC Goat posted:

(and I don't think Ben played it hard)

Were we watching the same show? He definitely played it up.

Having said that, it actually doesn't bug me as much as the "I'm doing this for my family!!!" line...like the people who say that are the only people in the history of the world who have had families. I do think its cool that a vet who's seen action can come on the show, and open up about his experience with PTSD and difficulty re-assimilating.

Nonetheless, my feelings toward Ben are mixed. In addition to finding idols, taking advantage of other players' miscues, and just generally persisting, he also made some prescient moves (namely, telling Devon about Ryan's idol and correctly sniffing out Lauren-Devon-Ashley's desire to vote him out) that ended up changing the landscape of the game pretty significantly. However, his path to the end was so obviously gifted to him by production that his victory is sullied. Did anybody mention how drat easy that last idol was to find? Wasn't it below the boat that people had been sitting on multiple times per game? He also developed this cult-like, public enemy #1 mystique that I thought was a somewhat inaccurate reflection that caused the perception of his gameplay to balloon to a silly proportion.

I'll admit as well that I grew to like Chrissy. I think it was quite impressive how she ended up back in the majority alliance (while ticking off a lot of the same "persistence" "hustle" "tenacity" boxes that Ben did) after getting knocked off her pedestal when the alliance of seven splintered. She didn't emphasize that nearly enough at FTC, although I still think she held her own very well (with the exception of continuing to interrupt the jury members...good lord, maybe develop some self-awareness of flaws?) She was not a perfect player, but she was at least Ben's equal in terms of gameplay (as was Devon). Not to mention the fact that Ben also played a socially flawed game, though for whatever reason that wasn't as a much of a dealbreaker for him as it was for Chrissy.

Vernacular fucked around with this message at Dec 22, 2017 around 07:25

STONE COLD 64
Oct 20, 2006

austin 3:16 says shut up. shut hte fuck up. where is my beer. i need hel

i didnt watch this season what was this final four twist that is upsetting everyone

Zesty
Jan 17, 2012



Tortured By Flan


Oh does she not have a CBS job anymore?

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Superanos
Nov 13, 2009


STONE COLD 64 posted:

i didnt watch this season what was this final four twist that is upsetting everyone

Winner of final 4 immunity only chooses one player to go with them to the final 3. The other is chosen by the fire making challenge that used to be a tie breaker.

This will make players do final 4 alliances instead of final 3, because they will no longer be in control of who goes at that point. You can have a solid final 4 with 7 players left.

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