Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.


Tiler Kiwi posted:

i know in 3k they've moved some of this stuff to happen at the end/start of each factions turn, but only when its particularly egregious; an enemy would lay siege to a settlement and your garrison would take attrition damage before you responded, but the ai armies never did. its an architectural holdover at this point; there is really no gameplay reason to not have that poo poo happen on individual faction turns other than it was maybe easier to implement at the time and now there is too much technical debt to justify the wages paid to people who would change it.

Yep sounds right

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

rideANDxORdie
Jun 10, 2010


I've tried TK a few times since picking up the game earlier this year and I found their campaign layer to be especially tedious, and the growth issue was a huge part of that. Shame since I really like playing them in MP

Lawdog69
Nov 2, 2010


Tomb Kings have great flavor but cruising around with nothing but skeletons/archers/chariots + your starting monster for 80 turns is miserable.

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



Lawdog69 posted:

Tomb Kings have great flavor but cruising around with nothing but skeletons/archers/chariots + your starting monster for 80 turns is miserable.
Dont forget your Casket of Souls!

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun



proposal: compress the army rosters into T1-3, only a handful of elite units like dragons, heavy artillery or superheavy cavalry should be T4-5

T4-5 cities should be a net drain on your economy, but that's okay because most provinces only need to be T3 and you'd only upgrade one or two cities to T5 for the elite units and landmarks

buildings should provide a cool economic/recruitment/local army bonus first, and allow (overlapping) unit recruitment second

also get rid of growth buildings and just have a steady static growth rate that you can increase with heroes/events/rites/sacking cities

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



Lt. Danger posted:

proposal: compress the army rosters into T1-3, only a handful of elite units like dragons, heavy artillery or superheavy cavalry should be T4-5

T4-5 cities should be a net drain on your economy, but that's okay because most provinces only need to be T3 and you'd only upgrade one or two cities to T5 for the elite units and landmarks

buildings should provide a cool economic/recruitment/local army bonus first, and allow (overlapping) unit recruitment second

also get rid of growth buildings and just have a steady static growth rate that you can increase with heroes/events/rites/sacking cities
Nah just do what 3K does because it works great and is fun. People like to see numbers go up in their videogames and having the highest tier cities be a net drain does not make numbers go up, and is also really weird and not how big cities work.

AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Apr 6, 2021

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun



extract wealth from the periphery for the benefit of the centre

Mustang
Jun 18, 2006


Have you considered not attending the Captain's Career Course?



Which factions have the strongest starts in the Vortex Lustrian thunderdome? I would assume Itza with Lord Kroak but I don't think I've ever seen his faction survive for long as the AI. Seems to usually be one of the Skaven factions along with Luthor Harkon that come out on top. Actually all of the VC factions seem to do well with the AI on Vortex. Ulthuan frequently seems to get the outer ring taken over by Noctilis or Aranessa without player intervention.

I've only completed the Vortex campaign as Malekith and Alith Anar and want to check out the other factions Vortex campaigns before WH3 comes out.

Jarvisi
Apr 17, 2001

Green is still best.


Mustang posted:

Which factions have the strongest starts in the Vortex Lustrian thunderdome? I would assume Itza with Lord Kroak but I don't think I've ever seen his faction survive for long as the AI. Seems to usually be one of the Skaven factions along with Luthor Harkon that come out on top. Actually all of the VC factions seem to do well with the AI on Vortex. Ulthuan frequently seems to get the outer ring taken over by Noctilis or Aranessa without player intervention.

I've only completed the Vortex campaign as Malekith and Alith Anar and want to check out the other factions Vortex campaigns before WH3 comes out.

Gor rok is the strongest start if only because he gets Kroak immediately. The problem is that gorrok is kinda boring

litany of gulps
Jun 11, 2001



Fun Shoe

Mustang posted:

Which factions have the strongest starts in the Vortex Lustrian thunderdome? I would assume Itza with Lord Kroak but I don't think I've ever seen his faction survive for long as the AI.

That's a funny thing, too, because he's INCREDIBLY hard to wipe out as an AI faction due to the unbreakable army and defensive bonuses coupled with Itza being a city with a massive garrison.

DOCTOR ZIMBARDO
May 8, 2006


I really like playing mind games with people on ladder. Taking sub factions and then taking the opposite of what you’d expect. Or just using weird units, like ghorst with a shitload of zombies and skeletons and then triple hexwraith (nobody ever expects hexwraiths).

DOCTOR ZIMBARDO
May 8, 2006


Lawdog69 posted:

Tomb Kings have great flavor but cruising around with nothing but skeletons/archers/chariots + your starting monster for 80 turns is miserable.

Followers of Nagash, bro. The dogs make a difference!!

litany of gulps
Jun 11, 2001



Fun Shoe

DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:

I really like playing mind games with people on ladder. Taking sub factions and then taking the opposite of what you’d expect. Or just using weird units, like ghorst with a shitload of zombies and skeletons and then triple hexwraith (nobody ever expects hexwraiths).

Have you ever just been completely blindsided by someone taking a bunch of aspiring champions hard countering your hexwraiths?

TheLastRoboKy
May 2, 2009

Finishing the game with everyone else's continues


Mustang posted:

Which factions have the strongest starts in the Vortex Lustrian thunderdome? I would assume Itza with Lord Kroak but I don't think I've ever seen his faction survive for long as the AI. Seems to usually be one of the Skaven factions along with Luthor Harkon that come out on top. Actually all of the VC factions seem to do well with the AI on Vortex. Ulthuan frequently seems to get the outer ring taken over by Noctilis or Aranessa without player intervention.

I've only completed the Vortex campaign as Malekith and Alith Anar and want to check out the other factions Vortex campaigns before WH3 comes out.

For Vortex as a player it's definitely going to be Gor'rok. He starts with a mind-nuke wizard who absolutely SHREDS Skaven and his starting province is very strong. In addition to this the Rite of Resilience makes your Saurus even harder to kill. I've been streaming myself playing as Gor'rok and today a full beastman stack attacked one of my small cities and assaulted it before I could get there with an actual army, and playing out the battle the Garrison Saurus just stood in place and dragged all the Ungol and Minotaurs into the dirt and beat them till they stopped moving. I also besieged Harkon's capital with Gor'rok and Kroak cleared most of the walls himself. I was constantly clicking around trying to find something for my troops to do because everything was dying so fast.

Gor'rok himself isn't remotely exciting but at the same time he's also not going to do something lame like lose or die in battle, at least not until literally every single other troop on the field is dead or fled.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers


saurus are ridiculous

DOCTOR ZIMBARDO
May 8, 2006


litany of gulps posted:

Have you ever just been completely blindsided by someone taking a bunch of aspiring champions hard countering your hexwraiths?

That one in particular hasn’t happened but I got dumpstered bad by the Eyes Of The Desert in a TK mirror today (I was using Followers of Nagash), since stalkers have magic anti large ranged attacks (and they have Stalk so I rode almost straight into them before I realized what was going on). If you take them with a Nehekara caster you can give them anti-large with djaf’s incantation of cursed blades and unexpectedly shred blood knights or whatever. Which is funny. I should try it with a light wizard using birona’s time warp next.

Randallteal
May 7, 2006

Good night, sweet prince, And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest

TheLastRoboKy posted:

Gor'rok himself isn't remotely exciting but at the same time he's also not going to do something lame like lose or die in battle, at least not until literally every single other troop on the field is dead or fled.

Nigh invincible foot lords are boring, but there's something very satisfying about putting one of them on an enemy wall by themselves during a siege battle and watching them blender enemy units on max fast forward. It's probably not good that you can make a regular sized single entity that tough, but I like the excessiveness of it.

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



Randallteal posted:

Nigh invincible foot lords are boring, but there's something very satisfying about putting one of them on an enemy wall by themselves during a siege battle and watching them blender enemy units on max fast forward. It's probably not good that you can make a regular sized single entity that tough, but I like the excessiveness of it.
This reminded me of how doing the same with Repanse and Henri with a life mage supporting from the ground is just so fun and satisfying. Especially once they have Perfect Vigour.

Kaza42
Oct 3, 2013

Blood and Souls and all that

Randallteal posted:

Nigh invincible foot lords are boring, but there's something very satisfying about putting one of them on an enemy wall by themselves during a siege battle and watching them blender enemy units on max fast forward. It's probably not good that you can make a regular sized single entity that tough, but I like the excessiveness of it.

I remember on release of WH1, when Sigvald's armor was un-nerfed and regen wasn't capped. He was capable of regen-tanking an entire enemy city. Was a cool spectacle to do once, but was so boring

Muscle Tracer
Feb 23, 2007

Medals only weigh
one down.


Kaza42 posted:

I remember on release of WH1, when Sigvald's armor was un-nerfed and regen wasn't capped. He was capable of regen-tanking an entire enemy city. Was a cool spectacle to do once, but was so boring

this sounds like just about the only use case for the one-hour battle time limit

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011


There was a lot less anti-single entity in the first game, so basically any vampire or especially Vlad could just take on the empire all by themselves with infinite regen and impossibly high stats to deal with.

Single entity's are in a weird place in this game, either they are impossible to hurt and slowly grind through your army or you have the right army composition and focus fire the entity and it dies in under 10 seconds.

terrorist ambulance
Nov 5, 2009


Ra Ra Rasputin posted:

There was a lot less anti-single entity in the first game, so basically any vampire or especially Vlad could just take on the empire all by themselves with infinite regen and impossibly high stats to deal with.


*laughs in staggered handgunner*

Jamwad Hilder
Apr 17, 2007

surfin usa

Ungrim and Sigvald were also both very fun for "One guy vs army" shenanigans. Less so in WH2 but I remember in WH1 for whatever reason those guys could clown on entire armies by themselves.

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011


I'll be a bit disappointed with TW3 if it ends up just being TW2 with a few new factions, a new map and some minor siege changes, I think most of us are hoping for a big overhaul that brings in all the improvements that worked from their recent games like Troy and Three Kingdoms and makes the campaign layer better.

terrorist ambulance
Nov 5, 2009


Ra Ra Rasputin posted:

I'll be a bit disappointed with TW3 if it ends up just being TW2 with a few new factions, a new map and some minor siege changes, I think most of us are hoping for a big overhaul that brings in all the improvements that worked from their recent games like Troy and Three Kingdoms and makes the campaign layer better.

TW2 was a pretty decent step up from 1, and they've had 3 in the oven for quite a while now. I'd be pretty surprised if it's just putting in the last armies and calling it a day

Hargrimm
Sep 22, 2011

W A R R E N


As long as they include the direct quantification of diplomatic deal modifiers that's in both Troy and 3 Kingdoms, that will be a big QoL improvement by itself. So much nicer to be able to see the numbers underlying the system rather than just spamming trade agreements every turn until the dwarves that have +150 opinion of you finally accept for some reason.

Sinteres
Mar 26, 2004
Please don't be rude, it upsets me when I'm trying to be smug

terrorist ambulance posted:

TW2 was a pretty decent step up from 1, and they've had 3 in the oven for quite a while now. I'd be pretty surprised if it's just putting in the last armies and calling it a day

Yeah but look at how changing the way climate works hosed over multiple races, and how the old races generally needed multiple years to(sometimes not) even really get up to the standards of the new ones. With even more content out there that would have to be balanced for whatever new standard they set in 3, I'm really not expecting any dramatic shifts this late in the trilogy. If they nibble around the edges in ways that don't make old content obsolete like making diplomacy smoother, or siege battles more fun, that would be cool though.

orangelex44
Oct 11, 2012

Definition of orange:

Any of a group of colors that are between red and yellow in hue. Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Old Occitan, from Arabic, from Persian, from Sanskrit.

Definition of lex:

Law. Latin.

Ra Ra Rasputin posted:

I'll be a bit disappointed with TW3 if it ends up just being TW2 with a few new factions, a new map and some minor siege changes, I think most of us are hoping for a big overhaul that brings in all the improvements that worked from their recent games like Troy and Three Kingdoms and makes the campaign layer better.

The great thing about TW3 is that "TW2 but with more stuff" is the floor for the game. Even if that's all they did it would still be pretty good. I personally doubt that they leave it at that, TW:WH has become their flagship series and a magnum opus of sorts. CA has spent a ton of time and effort polishing TW2, I can't imagine they won't be heavily iterating for TW3.

Sinteres
Mar 26, 2004
Please don't be rude, it upsets me when I'm trying to be smug

orangelex44 posted:

The great thing about TW3 is that "TW2 but with more stuff" is the floor for the game. Even if that's all they did it would still be pretty good.

Yeah, I feel this. Maybe there's some protecting myself from disappointment going on with my expectation that this is pretty close to what we'll get, idk. Obviously any improvements they do make will be welcome, but even more of the same but with new races and a new campaign is pretty good since the various races are a huge part of the draw for this trilogy.

terrorist ambulance
Nov 5, 2009


Sinteres posted:

Yeah but look at how changing the way climate works hosed over multiple races, and how the old races generally needed multiple years to(sometimes not) even really get up to the standards of the new ones. With even more content out there that would have to be balanced for whatever new standard they set in 3, I'm really not expecting any dramatic shifts this late in the trilogy. If they nibble around the edges in ways that don't make old content obsolete like making diplomacy smoother, or siege battles more fun, that would be cool though.

I mean, who fuckin knows. They've been developing under COVID for a year which I'm sure doesn't help, and AAA video games seem to be in a bit of a slump just now. Recall though that TW was released 5 years ago, and base TWW2 was released in 2017. If they hit the release date of "late 2021" they'll have had 4 years to work on this. If all that gets added is chaos, ogres, kislev, cathay, w/ all that time I'd be a bit surprised, but maybe not

Diplomacy and siege battle changes, as well as introducing better battle maps, seem like obvious and fairly straightforward improvements. Going back to the TWW2 battle maps after Three Kingdoms is like getting back on a moped after riding a sport bike

Vargs
Mar 27, 2010



Ra Ra Rasputin posted:

There was a lot less anti-single entity in the first game, so basically any vampire or especially Vlad could just take on the empire all by themselves with infinite regen and impossibly high stats to deal with.

I'll never forget wiping out Mannfred's army with trivial ease shortly after TWW1's release, then proceeding to watch him slowly kill every single one of my Dwarfs with his infinite regen cap. All of my Quarrelers unloaded every single bolt they had into his rear end while I kited him around, to no avail. Absolutely unstoppable.

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011


terrorist ambulance posted:

*laughs in staggered handgunner*

The Chad Jihad
Feb 24, 2007




Yeah my only worry with warhammer 3 is that theres enough content already there that the stuff they might try to differentiate factions ends up being awful or gets too absurd power creep wise.

Like if they add a duelist, theres already lots of duelists so the easiest thing to do to make them stand out is just make them a duelier duelist than any other. But then that makes a new bar for any other duelists even higher. Or stuff like how Groms gobbos are for the most part just better than Skarsniks gobbos, that sort of thing

And then of course the factions themselves. Like Chaos Dwarves will probably have some sort of system dealing with their reliance on green skin slave labor, and its possible they could whiff it.

I'm still pretty confident though, they've been adding mechanics to three kingdoms as time has gone on and while they've gotten fiddlier they're usually pretty good and none of them has outright sucked yet. And that's a game with more in depth faction mechanics to begin with so Warhams 3 has a lower floor to play with

orangelex44
Oct 11, 2012

Definition of orange:

Any of a group of colors that are between red and yellow in hue. Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Old Occitan, from Arabic, from Persian, from Sanskrit.

Definition of lex:

Law. Latin.

They kinda ran into that with the WH1 races versus the WH2 races, but the end result was that CA ended up reworking most of the original races to the higher standard. There's no reason to think that wouldn't happen again in WH3 (although it's still dumb that the WH1 races don't have rites).

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



Sinteres posted:

Yeah but look at how changing the way climate works hosed over multiple races, and how the old races generally needed multiple years to(sometimes not) even really get up to the standards of the new ones. With even more content out there that would have to be balanced for whatever new standard they set in 3, I'm really not expecting any dramatic shifts this late in the trilogy. If they nibble around the edges in ways that don't make old content obsolete like making diplomacy smoother, or siege battles more fun, that would be cool though.
Except if they dont have 3K quality diplomacy and sieges I'm not buying the game. I imagine I'm in the minority though. I.... I just cant play Warhammer II anymore after playing 3K. Its so dated and in many regards, like how terrorist ambulance brought up battle maps, outright bad. 3K still has some dumb 90% forested maps but thats a minor gripe compared to some of the crap in WH2. Everything about 3K other than faction unit variety is vastly better and I dont think I'm willing to shell out $60 for a step back in basic game tools and functionality.

Whorelord
May 1, 2013

Jump into the well...



3K's UI makes the game unplayable for me.

Sinteres
Mar 26, 2004
Please don't be rude, it upsets me when I'm trying to be smug

terrorist ambulance posted:

I mean, who fuckin knows. They've been developing under COVID for a year which I'm sure doesn't help, and AAA video games seem to be in a bit of a slump just now. Recall though that TW was released 5 years ago, and base TWW2 was released in 2017. If they hit the release date of "late 2021" they'll have had 4 years to work on this. If all that gets added is chaos, ogres, kislev, cathay, w/ all that time I'd be a bit surprised, but maybe not

It's worth noting that they've put out three other games since Warhammer 2, and a shitload of DLC, so while 3 has had a lot of dev time, I don't think it's quite as dramatic as that makes it sound. Like we know they had parallel teams working on some of these things, but Three Kingdoms had two delays (obviously pre-Covid), which made it seem like the whole parallel teams thing wasn't working quite as smoothly as they'd hoped.

AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:

Except if they dont have 3K quality diplomacy and sieges I'm not buying the game. I imagine I'm in the minority though. I.... I just cant play Warhammer II anymore after playing 3K. Its so dated and in many regards, like how terrorist ambulance brought up battle maps, outright bad. 3K still has some dumb 90% forested maps but thats a minor gripe compared to some of the crap in WH2. Everything about 3K other than faction unit variety is vastly better and I dont think I'm willing to shell out $60 for a step back in basic game tools and functionality.

Honestly I feel like Warhammer fatigue makes total sense even aside from having to compete with improvements from other Total War titles, so I don't think you'll be the only one sitting out if that's the way it goes. If they don't make significant improvements to differentiate the two, I think they'll still get plenty of sales, but I could see it hurting the long tail of DLC sales if people who've already been buying DLC for 2 for four years by then decide they've had enough. I do hope there will be some quality of life changes, I just think there's probably a limit to how much they'll want to re-invent the wheel this late in the series. Either way, I'm looking forward to hearing more next month so we have more than speculation to go off here.

Noir89
Oct 9, 2012


AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:

Except if they dont have 3K quality diplomacy and sieges I'm not buying the game. I imagine I'm in the minority though. I.... I just cant play Warhammer II anymore after playing 3K. Its so dated and in many regards, like how terrorist ambulance brought up battle maps, outright bad. 3K still has some dumb 90% forested maps but thats a minor gripe compared to some of the crap in WH2. Everything about 3K other than faction unit variety is vastly better and I dont think I'm willing to shell out $60 for a step back in basic game tools and functionality.

I am in the other camp, I can't loving stand 3ks research, armies and recruitment system, buildings and corruption system. I really hope that poo poo stays in 3k and don't spill over to warhams. Just let me decide how many characters I have in my armies tyvm.

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



Sinteres posted:

terrorist ambulance posted:

I mean, who fuckin knows. They've been developing under COVID for a year which I'm sure doesn't help, and AAA video games seem to be in a bit of a slump just now. Recall though that TW was released 5 years ago, and base TWW2 was released in 2017. If they hit the release date of "late 2021" they'll have had 4 years to work on this. If all that gets added is chaos, ogres, kislev, cathay, w/ all that time I'd be a bit surprised, but maybe not
It's worth noting that they've put out three other games since Warhammer 2, and a shitload of DLC, so while 3 has had a lot of dev time, I don't think it's quite as dramatic as that makes it sound. Like we know they had parallel teams working on some of these things, but Three Kingdoms had two delays (obviously pre-Covid), which made it seem like the whole parallel teams thing wasn't working quite as smoothly as they'd hoped.
This is a good point. About 3K - it may have had delays either way. Around the time there was a lot of blowback from other games being released too early and customers being pissed. Witcher 3 got delayed twice, totaling almost a year (I think?), but the actual release went reasonably well and was well received, so I think they went for the "better to delay than to release a poo poo game" like with what happened with stuff like No Man's Sky. They have to understand the bad press for delaying a game is much less a factor than the bad press for releasing a buggy broken game. Look at what just happened to Cyberpunk.

Sinteres posted:

Honestly I feel like Warhammer fatigue makes total sense even aside from having to compete with improvements from other Total War titles, so I don't think you'll be the only one sitting out if that's the way it goes. If they don't make significant improvements to differentiate the two, I think they'll still get plenty of sales, but I could see it hurting the long tail of DLC sales if people who've already been buying DLC for 2 for four years by then decide they've had enough. I do hope there will be some quality of life changes, I just think there's probably a limit to how much they'll want to re-invent the wheel this late in the series. Either way, I'm looking forward to hearing more next month so we have more than speculation to go off here.
I agree that they probably do not want to re-invent the wheel too much, but they have seemed pretty cognizant of feedback about sieges being poo poo, a lot of battle maps being just terrible, diplomacy is opaque and lovely, the whole discussion the past few pages about how Every. loving. Player. Settlement. Needs. Walls., growth, ect. Therefore, my hope would be that they took this long so they could bake-in improvements so WH3 can have as long, or longer, DLC cycle, and because people may not have bothered with 1 & 2 but may try 3 after the long life cycle and success of 2. Also, with GW working on The Old World and they have their poo poo together recently, too, and know what Total War: Warhammer is bringing new eyes to their products, so they may have greenlit adding all of Not-Asia to the TW franchise because they have written content for it for The Old World and want a platform that fixes the issues with the first two that people have been playing for the past five years.

edit: Circling back to my reply to your reply to TA, I think they probably decided to internally delay WH3 and thus push out even announcing it when covid happened, since WH2 DLC sales were strong and 2020 became a huge unknown. I work in software dev (though not high end gaming) and ALL of the coders I know love WFH because there are so many fewer distractions and pointless meetings than when you are in the office, so maybe they will have lots of optimizations and poo poo in. Who knows and I agree - I cant wait to hear more news.

AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Apr 7, 2021

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

juggalo baby coffin
Dec 2, 2007

How would the dog wear goggles and even more than that, who makes the goggles?



its worth noting that the factions they have left are much more work to create also. the demons are all pretty extravagant, and theyre gonna have to do a lot of their own design work for the kislev and cathay rosters, unless theyre working super closely with GW on some totally un-hinted-at cathay faction

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply