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I hope the beastmen get some cool new units. Apart from the minotaurs everything else is so lacklustre And with Khorne apparently getting Minotaurs as well I'm not sure I will bother with a beastman army unless they get some other spotlight unit
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Jun 4, 2021 08:14
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ok time to stop being lazy, they're remaking the loving beastmen holy poo poo
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Jun 4, 2021 09:45
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I'll lol when still no jabberslythe
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Jun 4, 2021 09:49
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externalising this from the OP to make room for TWW3 and the new expansion contentunit roster, with input from The Crotch posted:
additional references: 1)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbvsmqxJVvQ
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Jun 4, 2021 10:18
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Tehenhuain
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ive been thinking on What Is The Best Faction For a New Player and I'm going to give a opinion against the most common picks (dwarfs, lizards, counts, high elves), because they often teach some really terrible habits. Either they engender passivity like just corner camping every fight (dwarfs), don't cover important things like ranged combat (lizards, counts), magic (dwarfs), or the importance of protecting a backline (all of them). I'd actually pitch Repanse. I think cavalry is a good tool for starting players to learn to use since they offer flexibility, reward aggression, and make positioning easier to deal with, while still teaching things like "don't attack anti large things". Repanse's early foes are straightforward to fight, she and Henri are good beatsticks, and she buffs the infantry of the Bret roster so they don't route on first contact. The roster is cav heavy, but still has enough variety to be instructive on how to utilize different unit types (and getting all your archers killed because you don't know what you're doing isn't as dramatically horrible because you're still running around with horsies). Fighting Skaven early on might be horrible but Snikch tends to die off on his own anyways. Speaking of Snikch, I don't think he's a bad first timer pick either. He doesn't have loyalty to deal with, his roster is restricted so you only have to deal with knowing a few units, and having his best killer units being foot skirmishers means a first time player doesnt have to worry about how to set up good battle lines or anything, instead being able to use skirmish mode and learning from seeing how the AI fights. A stack of skirmishers still requires having to run them in fairly close distance to the enemy and Do Things rather than sit back and wait to destroy enemies as they walk at them. Plus, they're generally not good enough, even with the AP damage buff, to carry the game on their own backs forever. He's got a ritual that is a get out of jail free card, his unique campaign mechanics also allow means to make up for mistakes, and as the player gains favor with the clans or confederates other factions they start being able to experiment with other units a bit at a time. The only big down side, campaign wise, is the food mechanic being hard to cope with for a lot of people. other alternative picks i thought would work out: wurrzag, khalida, cylostra Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 12:24 on Jun 4, 2021 |
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Jun 4, 2021 11:54
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Vargs posted:I have never found a good use for White Lions. Gimmick army for Alistair. The nice thing about the HE roster is that everything is decent enough that in campaign you can recruit wacky lords with different traits and give everyone a gimmick army. Works even better with Mixu's lords. Or do sea guard/swordmaster/dragon/sister doomstacks if you are boring and basic. Collapsing Farts posted:I hope the beastmen get some cool new units. Apart from the minotaurs everything else is so lacklustre Marked bestigors would be v cool and tie in to game 3, and could also be kludged in to fit roster holes as needed. Tiler Kiwi posted:
Khalida on vortex? ME Khalida seems like hell for a new player, bashing your head against a walled city with t1 tomb kings in a minor city. I kinda hate what they did to her and Khatep's hell starts. I usually don't want to deal with them, and TK were one of the armies I actually played on TT as a kid goddammit I want to play them. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 12:36 on Jun 4, 2021 |
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Jun 4, 2021 12:23
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Maybe the beastmen DLC with minotaurs being the featured unit will mean they will finally have enough mass added to them that they won't be sent skyward by everything hitting them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCGNj1lahDA Ra Ra Rasputin fucked around with this message at 12:33 on Jun 4, 2021 |
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Jun 4, 2021 12:28
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Vargs posted:I have never found a good use for White Lions. My relationship to white lions changed when they updated the grove both by making it do stuff and again when they updated the grove in 2020, moving Sisters to the top tier Grove. I wouldn't build an entire building to get them - but given that I actually want both War Lions and Sisters the ability to recruit them is effectively free. And white lions stand up to archers as well as spearmen do (90 armour is good) while being able to beat down spearmen, slytherin guard, and lords. Of course they can't beat down even spearmen on VH or Legendary and I think that's the real problem they have.
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Jun 4, 2021 12:35
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The real problem is playing with VH/L combat difficulty.
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Jun 4, 2021 13:10
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Devorum posted:I thought this got patched out a while back? They didn't, and nor did the community patch fix it for me. I have a Hound campaign with screenshots upthread and recently tried again with the Eagle and I ran into the same bug. Cutscene played, challengers spawned but victory condition still uncompleted.
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Jun 4, 2021 13:37
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Tiler Kiwi posted:ive been thinking on What Is The Best Faction For a New Player and I'm going to give a opinion against the most common picks (dwarfs, lizards, counts, high elves), because they often teach some really terrible habits. Either they engender passivity like just corner camping every fight (dwarfs), don't cover important things like ranged combat (lizards, counts), magic (dwarfs), or the importance of protecting a backline (all of them). I'd go with Empire - either one of Karl Franz or Gelt. Tactically they have a large and flexible roster with lots of fun toys to reach for and they are capable of almost every playstyle (hammer and anvil, gunline, bowline, rush, grinder, EXPLOSIONS, hell they can even attempt skirmish and monster mash). On the strategy layer, they have engaging but not over-complicated mechanics combined with a nice varied mix of opponents and potential allies. Their campaigns also scale well, with some clear early-game goals (secure your province, defeat the nearby minor you start at war with) that transition into encountering midgame threats (Norsca, Vampire Counts, Ikkit) before the Chaos throwdown and endgame (Morathi, Grimgor). On Vortex, I'd probably agree with Repanse I guess - although Tyrion's start is a little better now that Grom is on the donut, it's not all just HElf vs. HElf early game anymore. Skaven seem really hard to learn out the gate.
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Jun 4, 2021 14:04
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No dlc skaven takes a great understanding of the leadership mechanics to do anything. Like skavenslave piles can work in the early game, but you need the synergy with the slingers or they will lose 1 on 1 vs literally any unit in the game. Definately go with Skrolk, but even then woof, that's a hill to climb as a first campaign.
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Jun 4, 2021 14:18
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Empire would be my recommendation for the reasons already mentioned, Karl Franz in particular. You get access to a wizard very early and KF is a good strong melee lord, plus you have some Reiksguard to teach you the value of cavalry. Tomb Kings would be near bottom of my list, because chariots aren't easy to use and they are the heavy hitters early on until you can get Ushabti. VVVV Sure, but what you'll be fighting early on as Empire can't really smash your front lines, and you can get quite a long way with spears, swords, and crossbows.
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Jun 4, 2021 14:21
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I find empire requires coordination and effective spell usage versus things that will destroy your frontline, which can be overwhelming for a firstimer, at least a firt timer to TW games. My problem with elves is that they're too strong on the campaign; you can just roll out a stack of lothern sea guard and win by being very passive and sloppy, especially on lower difficulty, and I think a new player should be given tools that require breaking away from the impulse to play overly passive and with bad positioning. skaven are hard to play generally and not a good entry point but i think eshin is an exception due to starting tucked away in ME. vortex is a more open position but they can ally with tomb kings without much difficulty. starting out using a lot of foot skirmishers gets the advantages of ranged play while still demanding that the player do more than sit in a box. Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Jun 4, 2021 |
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Jun 4, 2021 14:21
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If this hypothetical new player is willing to record themselves playing their first game, tell them to play as Marcus Wolfheart 
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Jun 4, 2021 14:25
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i think wood elves would be the worst in all ways for a newbie. weird campaign you can gently caress up super easy, expensive and fragile units that kind of suck unless you know what youre doing, and then the standard passive but hyper effective play is to just run hyper expensive ranged doomstacks and hide in trees
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Jun 4, 2021 14:40
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Tiler Kiwi posted:I find empire requires coordination and effective spell usage versus things that will destroy your frontline, which can be overwhelming for a firstimer, at least a firt timer to TW games. My problem with elves is that they're too strong on the campaign; you can just roll out a stack of lothern sea guard and win by being very passive and sloppy, especially on lower difficulty, and I think a new player should be given tools that require breaking away from the impulse to play overly passive and with bad positioning. Losing once your front line is compromised is a feature, not a bug. The early game encounters won't threaten to do that, but as higher-tier units start appearing it (in principle) forces experimentation with new units and tactics.
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Jun 4, 2021 14:42
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Vargs posted:I have never found a good use for White Lions. Use them because they look cool! I'll use subpar units all the time just for flavor. Sometimes min/max-ing gets to be too much (in any game) and it's fun to mix it up. This is also the reason why I'm usually the least attributing member of my friend group when we play competitive multiplayer games because I end up doing non-optimal poo poo to mix it up.
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Jun 4, 2021 14:45
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Empire swords / halberds and crossbows with red line buffs will take you way into late game. It's a very simple, effective army to play in single player
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Jun 4, 2021 14:45
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Ikit and Snikitch both have hilariously obvious doomstacks you can get online fairly early. Ikit can spam gunlines and never have to recruit melee. Throw in as many engineers as you can and your rattling guns will pulp units from across the map. Snikitch can get a grip of mortars, hide their infantry somewhere, and ambush when they try to close in on the artillery position. Ishka's triads are one of my favorite units in the game, and man alive are they a force multiplier for your mortars. This is all assuming you have to make an army out of only the base units and the individual DLC's units; once you can mix and match, Skaven are trivially easy on campaign, even Tretch has a puncher's chance with the full roster. Realistically, your melee line should be plague monk summons, or you're in for a difficult time. Woe unto me when I tried to run a stormvermin line and play them like a normal army. I could not believe the things that would completely body my 'elite' infantry. The council guard are cool though. The only real hurdle is getting used to using the afore mentioned skavenslave pile in the early game. It's not terrible with some nice menace from below rear charges and good use of magic, but you need some good melee/ranged positioning because you will lose a straight fight against literally anything that isn't a basic ranged unit or artillery crew.
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Jun 4, 2021 14:49
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playing hard (and when im masochistic, very hard) has probably fried my standards but i find that even with red line skills those state troops exist mostly for everything in the game to clown on them. greenskins offer a similar amount of variety, with wuzzrag they get good spells and a strong early game crutch with savage orcs, and their frontline can actually give you enough time to do things without everything going horrible if things go on too long. i think franz in the campaign has the problem where an experienced player can keep up the pace but someone who can actually lose battles or doesnt know how to deal with the imperial stuff can find themselves pretty rapidly stuck in a problem cycle.
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Jun 4, 2021 14:50
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I think if someone is new to this game and playing on normal, and they find themselves relying on corner camping or bad habits to win fights they should probably get themselves to youtube and learn how to play. I don't think any of the noob friendly armies necessarily reward playing in lovely ways, they make it so that you have the space to absorb losses, mostly. The "toolbox" factions like HE or Empire are ideal for new players specifically because they encourage new players to attempt to use mixed arms in their armies - frontline/backline/skirmishers/cavalry/artillery. Then by the time they've scraped through 50 or 60 turns they can build a magic college and have their mind blown by the expansiveness of magic in the game. I would only recommend empire, high elves or greenskins to new players with the latter being the wacky option. Thats because these three armies have answers to any surprises that might get thrown at them. Most of the other factions are some spin on the general formula with a glaring weakness thrown in for fun.
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Jun 4, 2021 15:02
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The battle difficulty changes are overstated imo. Hard basically means the AI has enough morale to actually reach your main force and not get owned by ranged/cav/spells/a badass dragon Also skaven are as broken and easy as they were in 8th. If anything they are nerfed. Imagine if you could field five units of slaves that mathematically took more turns to break than the game lasted, while also have a seer on a bell buffing your entire army and being the one army both allowed to fire through the back of your own units and possessing extremely powerful ranged units. Also you are the one faction where leaders can hide in the back of units while providing full buffs, instead of having to risk them getting killed to get benefits. Skavenslaves run up 7th daemons for most broken unit in all of Ham history Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Jun 4, 2021 |
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Jun 4, 2021 15:03
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unit spolight videos are back featuring the big Khorne red doggos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7q0Ms7ej7A
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Jun 4, 2021 15:21
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A brand new player probably isn't going to have a bunch of DLC or 1, so I'd go with Vortex Tyrion for sure. Helves are a solid jack of all trades army, which helps with establishing a baseline experience before messing with weirder army comps later on, and Tyrion's start is about as safe and basic as you could hope for. If it ends up being too easy or boring, they can always start fresh with something else, but I still think having the tutorial island experience with training wheels on is a good start. For similar reasons, I think starting as Empire in 1 was the best start for a newbie, but I don't really think the Mortal Empires version of them in 2021 is as newbie friendly. Having to deal with the imperial mechanics isn't the end of the world or anything, but it's just a layer of added complexity getting in the way of establishing a baseline experience. Obviously it's a flat out more difficult start than it was in the early life of Warhammer 1 too though, with more enemies to deal with. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Jun 4, 2021 |
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Jun 4, 2021 15:23
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:The battle difficulty changes are overstated imo. Hard basically means the AI has enough morale to actually reach your main force and not get owned by ranged/cav/spells/a badass dragon That's not the issue. It's the debuffs that you get as the player in higher difficulties like VH and Legendary. They make frontline infantry basically irrelevant because they're too slow and don't have enough HP or morale to go up against enemy units that have been buffed.
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Jun 4, 2021 15:25
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Arcsquad12 posted:That's not the issue. It's the debuffs that you get as the player in higher difficulties like VH and Legendary. They make frontline infantry basically irrelevant because they're too slow and don't have enough HP or morale to go up against enemy units that have been buffed. Ah, so like normal
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Jun 4, 2021 15:28
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Ah, so like normal No, not like normal. Ranged is the superior option in normal, for sure. But melee cannot even trade favorably with melee in VH/L 90% of the time.
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Jun 4, 2021 15:35
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Electronico6 posted:unit spolight videos are back featuring the big Khorne red doggos Corn Dogs
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Jun 4, 2021 15:53
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I played very hard battle difficulty and campaign for most of WH1 and WH2 and finally just knocked combat difficulty down to hard, or normal, and was amazed when my infantry could actually kill things and charges would break things The difference between lower combat difficulties and VH, to me, is just playing "normally" versus doing things like 18 ranged troops and a combat lord, wizard stack to cheese endlessly replenishing ammo and the deadliness of ranged. The game isn't really "harder", you just play in a way that breaks it
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Jun 4, 2021 16:15
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I feel like people overstate the need for all ranged doomstacks or they just want to auto-resolve most fights I exclusively play vh/vh and you can use melee armies, even into late game, with most factions. I ran a comedy stack of white lions + war lions + loremasters and a guardian handmaiden with Alastar and it dunked on delves and lizards. I'm playing my first legendary campaign and I'm running a queek clanrat + monsters list. Which is also a ton of fun, and he also gets 1 turn rank 9 global recruit so it works out when things go poorly. There are tons of viable combos but you also need to recognize what you're facing and how to counteract it the biggest thing is you have to play more cautiously and not try to solo 4 stacks to your 1
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Jun 4, 2021 16:37
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Tiler Kiwi posted:ive been thinking on What Is The Best Faction For a New Player and I'm going to give a opinion against the most common picks (dwarfs, lizards, counts, high elves), because they often teach some really terrible habits. Either they engender passivity like just corner camping every fight (dwarfs), don't cover important things like ranged combat (lizards, counts), magic (dwarfs), or the importance of protecting a backline (all of them). It’s Empire no? They are so versatile that you can develop lots of different play styles.
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Jun 4, 2021 17:04
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You mainly just need some experience in the leader to pump up the melee stats and then your redline/special lord skills make the troops far surpass what the AI bonuses give it and all the wasted skill points the AI spent in reduced siege attrition and 5% underway intercept chance. Though range just compounds the bonuses much harder since every unit attacks at once and gets more bonuses that stack better, like fire rate/damage/ammo compared to just chance to hit, weapon damage and charge bonus to both for a couple swings.
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Jun 4, 2021 17:09
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Sinteres posted:A brand new player probably isn't going to have a bunch of DLC or 1, so I'd go with Vortex Tyrion for sure. Helves are a solid jack of all trades army, which helps with establishing a baseline experience before messing with weirder army comps later on, and Tyrion's start is about as safe and basic as you could hope for. If it ends up being too easy or boring, they can always start fresh with something else, but I still think having the tutorial island experience with training wheels on is a good start. If anything, I would argue Tyrion's start is TOO safe. Tyrion Vortex was my first Total War campaign ever, and I made the mistake of... becoming allies with all my neighbors (except Caldeor), because they were all willing, and I ended up with nobody to fight within a ten-turn march of my own territory, which was confusing to say the least. Then the demons arrived, and guess what! your allies don't give a poo poo about that, so my unpracticed rear end got curbstomped.
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Jun 4, 2021 17:20
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https://youtu.be/iOgTybtRHxU Another important video
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Jun 4, 2021 17:20
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Muscle Tracer posted:If anything, I would argue Tyrion's start is TOO safe. Tyrion Vortex was my first Total War campaign ever, and I made the mistake of... becoming allies with all my neighbors (except Caldeor), because they were all willing, and I ended up with nobody to fight within a ten-turn march of my own territory, which was confusing to say the least. It's not quite as baby easy now that VCoast is around, and theoretically Grom, though Eltharion usually takes care of him in my experience. The inner ring minor factions tend to be kind of dickbags too, though obviously not on the scale of outright enemy factions. I think learning the hard way that the rituals can be a punch in the face is just something players might just have to go through though. I played as Mazdamundi in my first campaign, and never finished it because I got pissed off at Chaos spawning in and razing my cities on their way to the ritual sites. FWIW my brother accidentally won a domination victory a few turns before he would have finished the last vortex ritual on his first campaign as Tyrion, but he had a lot of previous experience with other total war games, and I warned him what to expect with the rituals.
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Jun 4, 2021 17:58
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Southpaugh posted:I think if someone is new to this game and playing on normal, and they find themselves relying on corner camping or bad habits to win fights they should probably get themselves to youtube and learn how to play. This smacks really hard of "git gud", which I don't love. A good new player experience should introduce a player to the important elements of the game through the game without overwhelming them or reinforcing cheese strategies, and certainly without requiring them to study Sun Tzu's The Art Of Skavenslaves on youtube before being able to play reasonably competently. In vanilla TW:W2, I would argue that Tyrion is almost certainly the optimal NPE because you get exposed to: - a solid, but not invincible, frontline - ranged units - cavalry - magic from very early on, plus you're set up on a very defensible position that allows you to see the pitfalls of overextending yourself without risking your core too much. As the tech tree rolls out, you get access to a limited number of sidegrades and added complexity at a fairly reasonable rate. A player might fall into the trap of rolling lothern sea guard as their backline forever, but I think there's diverse enough options in the roster that it's not going to happen by default (compared to, say, Dwarfs, where the optimal strategy is "form square, deploy smog".) I'd have suggested Malekith instead but I think that Dork Elves lose by virtue of being a hair too easy to get in over your head with
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Jun 4, 2021 18:09
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Gimmick army for Alistair. These are the clutch answers, but the rework to the building lines does mean you're probably just going to be able to pick them up now, which is great. I like to have ~2 units of them early game for flanking front lines or dealing with any unusually tanky early stacks you run into. You can find a lot of use for them when you start in the badlands, but against the other HE start positions they are just in a very weird meta spot where they are only gonna have a lot of utility if you get one of those weird TONS of spearmen armies the AI sometimes spam. Their key role of being a can opener doesn't make a ton of sense when there are no cans to be opened.
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Jun 4, 2021 18:20
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HE economy is probably easier to get a handle on than DE economy too. The DE being so reliant on slaves can be a hassle early if you don't realize it while the HE just need to develop their provinces. Also definitely didn't realize that they had rolled Sisters/Handmaidens into the Grove line, that works nicely and means White Lions might see some use. It does mean that I'm probably never going to hire ellyrian reavers or silver helms when I can get war lions and eagles for similar purposes for one less building slot.
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Jun 4, 2021 18:20
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ChickenWing posted:This smacks really hard of "git gud", which I don't love. A good new player experience should introduce a player to the important elements of the game through the game without overwhelming them or reinforcing cheese strategies, and certainly without requiring them to study Sun Tzu's The Art Of Skavenslaves on youtube before being able to play reasonably competently. I'm not trying to say git gud - as thats always dismissive, but like, theres plenty of trial and error with getting comfortable at a game and thats the time where players bounce off and lots of people watch youtube for strategies and so on now. Is there even a tutorial for combat in WH2? I haven't looked as its like my 6th TW title. I just started campaigns and went from there. Also, I think DE are a bit fragile across the board and other than cheap AP ranged they are fairly un-intuitive.
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Jun 4, 2021 18:37
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