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Randallteal
May 7, 2006

Good night, sweet prince, And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest

Hunt11 posted:

Clan Eshin is already out though.

So was Norsca.

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ZeusJupitar
Jul 7, 2009


Zedhe Khoja posted:

Yeah they have good/bad things (gently caress the newer 4daEVULZ lore) but even the good aspects of Slaanesh don't really have anything to do with love. It's art, aesthetics, prowess etc.

The gods haven't change at all since their first appearance in the Realm of Chaos source books in 1990, with vast majority of subsequent material copying text from those source books verbatim. The 'original lore' is literally a collective delusion passed from fan to fan based on nothing.

Giggle Goose
Oct 18, 2009


Nurgle is whoever you need him to be guys.

Muscle Tracer
Feb 23, 2007

Medals only weigh one down.

ZeusJupitar posted:

The gods haven't change at all since their first appearance in the Realm of Chaos source books in 1990, with vast majority of subsequent material copying text from those source books verbatim. The 'original lore' is literally a collective delusion passed from fan to fan based on nothing.

yeah but, my dude, the chaos gods are also very literally the product of that mass belief, both in 40k and in real life

juggalo baby coffin
Dec 2, 2007

How would the dog wear goggles and even more than that, who makes the goggles?



the traditional pairings of enemies are khorne vs slaanesh (repressed gay vs liberated gay) and nurgle vs tzeentch (slob gay vs theatre gay)

them doing tzeentch vs cathay is weird cause one of the only pieces of lore about cathay is that they have a semi-open tzeentchite religion in their society. maybe now that chaos has invaded theyve gone all fifth column though

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

Right in the Kokoro



juggalo baby coffin posted:

the traditional pairings of enemies are khorne vs slaanesh (repressed gay vs liberated gay) and nurgle vs tzeentch (slob gay vs theatre gay)

them doing tzeentch vs cathay is weird cause one of the only pieces of lore about cathay is that they have a semi-open tzeentchite religion in their society. maybe now that chaos has invaded theyve gone all fifth column though

More likely that part of the lore has just been excised entirely now that Cathay are getting a full write up.

Zedhe Khoja
Nov 10, 2017

Truth Shines, Comrades!


ZeusJupitar posted:

The gods haven't change at all since their first appearance in the Realm of Chaos source books in 1990, with vast majority of subsequent material copying text from those source books verbatim. The 'original lore' is literally a collective delusion passed from fan to fan based on nothing.

Tome of Corruption is 15 years old. Plenty old to me.

Raygereio
Nov 12, 2012


Zedhe Khoja posted:

Tome of Corruption is 15 years old. Plenty old to me.
Tome of Corruption is also the only source that I can recall in Warhammer Fantasy for that. In 40K it's only mentioned in a Rogue Trader book.
The Chaos Gods having good aspects can be an interesting concept (which why Warhammer fans always bring it up). But it never has been an idea GW adopted and made a fixed part of the lore. Chaos is the same as it's always been: Boring monsters that go "grrr, I'm evil".

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

juggalo baby coffin posted:

them doing tzeentch vs cathay is weird cause one of the only pieces of lore about cathay is that they have a semi-open tzeentchite religion in their society. maybe now that chaos has invaded theyve gone all fifth column though

If they didn't just chuck that lore in the bin, this seems to be a pretty easy gimme. You could even have a DLC pack with a Cathay/Tzeentch hybrid roster led by some Cathayan high priest of tzeentch dickhead who wants to overthrow the kingdom in the name of Chaos.

Scott Forstall
Aug 16, 2003

MMM THAT FAUX LEATHER


Captain Oblivious posted:

I’m the same way as the poster you quoted except I have played multiple Skaven campaigns, enough to confirm that I strongly dislike them and I like Ikit even less. I despise Ikit for the same reason I despise Sisters of Twilight. Broke rear end power curve LLs like that that are not only extremely overpowered but being extremely overpowered involves stacking the units that involve the least actual gameplay possible? Noooo thanks.

I understand that these are all words in the English language. The sequence of them makes no sense to me.

Dandywalken
Feb 11, 2014

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation. I actually named my daughter after the Pink ranger and will provide proof if challenged.


Kanos posted:

If they didn't just chuck that lore in the bin, this seems to be a pretty easy gimme. You could even have a DLC pack with a Cathay/Tzeentch hybrid roster led by some Cathayan high priest of tzeentch dickhead who wants to overthrow the kingdom in the name of Chaos.

this would rule. i hope they keep that lore

Aurubin
Mar 17, 2011



Alright, now that Cathay is fleshed out let's complain enough so that they do Ind. So if we go by precedent we need a massive corporate restructuring of GW and then blowing up of the setting.

Mordja
Apr 26, 2014



Hell Gem

I still want Araby first. :mad:

Gonkish
May 19, 2004



Yeah, Cathay combines a lot of things that I like:

Spear lines
Giant monsters
Gunpowder loving everywhere
Strong magic

Basically going to be the faction I play first.

Lord_Magmar
Feb 24, 2015

"Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"




Raygereio posted:

Tome of Corruption is also the only source that I can recall in Warhammer Fantasy for that. In 40K it's only mentioned in a Rogue Trader book.
The Chaos Gods having good aspects can be an interesting concept (which why Warhammer fans always bring it up). But it never has been an idea GW adopted and made a fixed part of the lore. Chaos is the same as it's always been: Boring monsters that go "grrr, I'm evil".

It's been on and off in the RPGs, which are all "canon" to an extent. It's also the basic explanation for why people fall that isn't just stupid awfulness evil bad guy. Road to hell and good intentions and all that.

Nurgle loves his followers, but his actual deal is despair/acceptance. To know that things aren't changing, so you might as well be happy where you are.

Slaanesh is "love" in that to follow Slaanesh is to love sensation, to desire more of everything and anything, to chase that next high, it's love without limits, maddening love, nightmarish love. Loving something or someone with all your heart and soul until it consumes you.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment



Lord_Magmar posted:

It's been on and off in the RPGs, which are all "canon" to an extent. It's also the basic explanation for why people fall that isn't just stupid awfulness evil bad guy. Road to hell and good intentions and all that.

Nurgle loves his followers, but his actual deal is despair/acceptance. To know that things aren't changing, so you might as well be happy where you are.

Slaanesh is "love" in that to follow Slaanesh is to love sensation, to desire more of everything and anything, to chase that next high, it's love without limits, maddening love, nightmarish love. Loving something or someone with all your heart and soul until it consumes you.

To both expound on and consolidate this, it really depends on the given book and author. People with good taste latch onto what the better writers and idea-havers have done with the portfolios, while a lot of it has been overwhelmed by the worst of the writers and the even more terrible fanbase.

Southpaugh
May 26, 2007

Smokey Bacon




Nurgle smokes weed.

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011


Jamwad Hilder posted:

Now all they need to add is Lu Bu.

They would have to properly Warhammer him up like Marco Colombo and call him something like Bu Lu or Boo Louie.

reignonyourparade
Nov 15, 2012


juggalo baby coffin posted:

the traditional pairings of enemies are khorne vs slaanesh (repressed gay vs liberated gay) and nurgle vs tzeentch (slob gay vs theatre gay)

them doing tzeentch vs cathay is weird cause one of the only pieces of lore about cathay is that they have a semi-open tzeentchite religion in their society. maybe now that chaos has invaded theyve gone all fifth column though

I mean traditionally the only OTHER piece of lore is tamurkhan's tzeentch minion leading off an expedition against cathay so even with the semi open tzeentchite religion that didn't seem to particularly protect against tzeentch invasion.

Babylon Astronaut
Apr 19, 2012


Luis Buis.

Gonkish
May 19, 2004



Fuckin mighty morphin storm dragon versus a two-headed chicken mage. The sheer, stupid, ridiculous nature of it all just... works.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface


Hair Elf

Warhammer will grow Chiner

Dr Christmas
Apr 24, 2010

Berninating the one percent,
Berninating the Wall St.
Berninating all the people
In their high rise penthouses!


I’ve been wondering about what the map will look like. I assume CA wants to have varying starting positions within each race, and a place for every race of the previous two games.

One of the Cathay LLs rules the “northern provinces” and another rules epithet western ones. Cathay is probably big enough that that counts. Tsarina will start in the city of Kislev, and I think they showed Rasputin slightly to the southwest. What piques my curiosity is inevitable future DLC, where they’ll “have” to add a new Kislev LL somewhere else. Kislev is small compared to a lot of other powers and I’m unaware of it projecting its power elsewhere. Maybe the equivalent of Siberia, but it seems to turn into hostile Kurgan land very quick as you head east of Kislev.
Man, if they add Chaos Dwarves, what are their starting positions outside the Darklands?

If Khorne is menacing Kislev from the Wastes and Tzeentch is assaulting the Bastion from Cathay’s North, where are Slaanesh and Nurgle coming from? Maybe a sweltering jungle is a good thematic place for Nurgle to come from, which could be all along the southern “Asia.” I think Slaanesh conquered Ind in the End Times, so maybe they’re there partaking in all the pleasures old racist brits imagined India to have, leaving Khuresh for Nurgle. Kurgan and Hung lands will probably be inhabited by “Norse.”

Depending on how far south and west the map stretches, you can fit a lot of TWW1 races on the edge of the map, probably everyone except Brettonia and Wood Elves. They could fit Tomb Kings down in the southwest corner if the map contains the part of the Southlands that’s cut off in the Vortex but present in Mortal Empires. You could make up a Wood Elf enclave somewhere like the did for Twisted and the Twilight, but Brettonia is harder to place. They’ll probably be doing a colonialism somewhere.

Lizardmen could be in Khuresh, where there’s the Lost City of the Old Ones, or the Dragon Isles off the west coast of Ind where Malus has his Mortal Empires start. High Elves have island colonies by Ind and Khuresh. Lokhir has a history of sacking a temple in Ind, so that’s a possible start for Dark Elves. Vampirates could be hanging out on just about any island. Skaven are endemic everywhere.

So Ind is probably going to be colonized to hell. Maybe by Brettonians with nowhere else to go, like Arabay. But as long as we’re dreaming big, what era of history could they to draw from for their army? To have thousands of years of culture in the Warhammer world, you have to be able to defend yourself from a random Waaagh!

From the world maps I’ve seen, they could dodge the whole Ind issue by just not stretching the map that far south from where it is in Mortal Empires, which would be a shame. It would cut off most of Ind while keeping the Darklands and Mountains of Mourn. If felt weird having more territory to fight over in Naggaroth that, Lustria, with Lustria having a whole game book to itself.

Mortal Empires 2 also provides new possible starting positions for older LLs, they could de-Thunderdrome-ify Lustria and the Southlands by moving some people, like Lokhir to Ind or Snikch to Nippon.

A big, detailed world map means they’re going to have to decide what the Great Maw actually looks like, which will be fun!

orangelex44
Oct 11, 2012

Definition of orange:

Any of a group of colors that are between red and yellow in hue. Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Old Occitan, from Arabic, from Persian, from Sanskrit.

Definition of lex:

Law. Latin.

Dr Christmas posted:

One of the Cathay LLs rules the “northern provinces” and another rules epithet western ones. Cathay is probably big enough that that counts. Tsarina will start in the city of Kislev, and I think they showed Rasputin slightly to the southwest. What piques my curiosity is inevitable future DLC, where they’ll “have” to add a new Kislev LL somewhere else. Kislev is small compared to a lot of other powers and I’m unaware of it projecting its power elsewhere. Maybe the equivalent of Siberia, but it seems to turn into hostile Kurgan land very quick as you head east of Kislev.

So specifically to this point, the Old World lore has soft-retconned an extension of Kislev past the World's Edge mountains (basically slicing off the tip of the Darklands triangle). Plus you can shove Boris into the Chaos Wastes, and there's probably a way to handwave some guy getting loving lost in Ind or something. It's no weirder than Khatep starting in Naggaroth.

I expect that Cathay proper will be plenty large enough to fit as many LLs as you'd want (presumably the lords of the eastern and southern provinces). It could (and debatably should) be a third of the map all by itself. Like the Empire/Brettonia it should be a lot of semi-independent realms of the same in-game culture, but with various weird enclaves of potential allies/enemies. The Kislev leaders will probably be a lot more spread out, but also more isolated and generally unsupported by minors of their culture. IIRC Katarin's faction is already known to be "Katarin's Expedition" meaning that it's likely to already not be located in what's considered Kislev proper.

As far as the rest... I think the primary Chaos God factions will start either off-map in their own personal thunderdome, or have some type of game mechanic limitation forcing them to stay in the Chaos Wastes. In the latter case they'll probably just be strung out arbitrarily along the northern border. I think most of the existing races will be pretty easy to add in somewhere; it's really just a function of how far west the map goes. The Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings might be hard to fit if the map doesn't stretch into their traditional lands. The Empire and Bretonnia are likely to only be a token representation of one or two trading colonies, at least to start with. I believe that just about everyone else should have a significant presence no matter what, as marauding armies if nothing else (i.e. Vampire Coast).

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment



Dr Christmas posted:

Theorycrafting about the map and spawn points

I have zero concern with the map and spawn points, even at the start. CA has been more than willing to do completely insane poo poo with starting positions and making them work based on what is around them at the time they are placed. I'd be more concerned with what the DLCs will do to the map and new lord spawns in terms of how it can heavily effect the previous meta. I think most of these have generally been good, but there are definitely ones that RADICALLY changed some LLs. Hell, even some of the just moving around old lords. Azhag's new place up north signficantly changed up how poo poo can go down up there and the psycho dryad - and the WE update in general honestly - COMPLETELY changed how that area works.

And that's not to say I think they are bad at it or anything, just that its a really complex thing that takes time to soak in and determine how good it is as an overall package and how it adjusts a lot of relative meta/tier rankings. CA coming up with the reason why someone is in a place for lore is no problem, but meta is...harder.

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...


orangelex44 posted:

So specifically to this point, the Old World lore has soft-retconned an extension of Kislev past the World's Edge mountains (basically slicing off the tip of the Darklands triangle). Plus you can shove Boris into the Chaos Wastes, and there's probably a way to handwave some guy getting loving lost in Ind or something. It's no weirder than Khatep starting in Naggaroth.
Definitely no weirder than having Thorek start in a lost hold that the dorfs have been looking for for 2,000 years or whatever and whose whole point is it was never found. They can start anyone anywhere with only a little creativity.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


Or the Sisters of Twilight suddenly leading a wood elf faction in Naggaroth.

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011


The Real question is will they end up Vampire-coasting Ind a year after release.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


Ra Ra Rasputin posted:

The Real question is will they end up Vampire-coasting Ind a year after release.

We can only hope.

The Warhammer 3 Map will most likely exclude Ind anyways, as well as southern and eastern Cathay. Which makes me even more curious what the Immortal Empires map looks like.

Impermanent
Apr 1, 2010








a group of dwarves in a mountain in the middle of cathay. the only explanation is "well it's a mountain, isn't it?" all of them slam their tankards on the table. the only warhammer lore you ned

Jarvisi
Apr 17, 2001

Green is still best.


Why only two legendary lords for Cathay? I thought they said all factions would get four out the gate from now on.

Lord_Magmar
Feb 24, 2015

"Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"




Jarvisi posted:

Why only two legendary lords for Cathay? I thought they said all factions would get four out the gate from now on.

All DLC Factions will, but in terms of an entirely new game they're putting 9 lords in already, and they want Lords for later DLC.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers


Impermanent posted:

a group of dwarves in a mountain in the middle of cathay.
"Why are you here?"
all of them slam their tankards on the table.
"Thats a grudgin'"

Arghy
Nov 15, 2012

Take it from me, you can get brain damage from rubber horsecock induced autoerotic asphyxiation.

Zephro posted:

Definitely no weirder than having Thorek start in a lost hold that the dorfs have been looking for for 2,000 years or whatever and whose whole point is it was never found. They can start anyone anywhere with only a little creativity.

Let's also not forget that more than half the lords are dead in the current time line so ain't no one start bitching about it's not following lore for someone who's been dead for 1000 years starting somewhere weird. I think chaos is gonna start in their own little map, i don't think the realms of chaos will actually be normal cities and provinces.

Charlz Guybon
Nov 16, 2010


juggalo baby coffin posted:

im very glad they went with the dragon emperor being a literal dragon. its a very cool angle to pursue because not much has been done with the dragons. theyre the only species, along with the dragon ogres, who pre-date the old ones and their meddling, so its neat to have powerful characters who are that extremely ancient and cool.



Didn't the Fimir have a powerful empire before the Old Ones came?

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


Arghy posted:

Let's also not forget that more than half the lords are dead in the current time line so ain't no one start bitching about it's not following lore for someone who's been dead for 1000 years starting somewhere weird. I think chaos is gonna start in their own little map, i don't think the realms of chaos will actually be normal cities and provinces.

Who's dead in the current timeline? I'm just curious, I have zero exposure to Warhammer outside of the Total War games (and sometimes browsing the wiki when I'm interested in something).

Broken Cog
Dec 28, 2009

We're all friends here


Torrannor posted:

Who's dead in the current timeline? I'm just curious, I have zero exposure to Warhammer outside of the Total War games (and sometimes browsing the wiki when I'm interested in something).

Azhag, Grom and Repanse are the big ones, I think.

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

Right in the Kokoro



Broken Cog posted:

Azhag, Grom and Repanse are the big ones, I think.

Vlad and Isabella too.

Broken Cog
Dec 28, 2009

We're all friends here


Captain Oblivious posted:

Vlad and Isabella too.

Oh yeah, I always forget those, since I think they were resurrected or something for End Times?

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Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Volkmar and Morghur should be dead as well iirc.

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