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StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.



Strategic AI is pretty dire but the tactical AI is actually really good

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Ralepozozaxe
Sep 6, 2010

Watch your step.


I just saw a kid in the Halloween aisle point to a plastic skeletal rat and say “Look Mom, it’s Ratatouille in the future.” That’ll be me come thursday.

Whorelord
May 1, 2013

Jump into the well...


StashAugustine posted:

Strategic AI is pretty dire but the tactical AI is actually really good

what is the difference between tactical and strategic? I never know.

Fans
Jun 27, 2013

A reptile dysfunction

Whorelord posted:

what is the difference between tactical and strategic? I never know.

Tactics are the execution of a single goal "Hit their flank with this unit" while Strategy is your overall plan for the battle

Third World Reggin
May 19, 2008



Gork is the god of tactical strategy

Mork is the god of strategic tactical

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.



Specifically, the AI that governs the factions on the turn based big map is bad, the AI that controls units in battle is good

Darkrenown
Jul 18, 2012

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new DLC tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

So is this just like a super expansion of TW:W with new races and a new map, or are there large mechanical differences? E.g. if I would rather play as the Empire should I just get the first game?

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.



Darkrenown posted:

So is this just like a super expansion of TW:W with new races and a new map, or are there large mechanical differences? E.g. if I would rather play as the Empire should I just get the first game?

They're putting out a combined map within a month or so and old races are gonna be in for MP/custom battles day 1, but the combined campaign isn't going to be as in-depth. You do need the first game to get combined map or access to them in MP, IIRC

Ze Pollack
May 31, 2006


Darkrenown posted:

So is this just like a super expansion of TW:W with new races and a new map, or are there large mechanical differences? E.g. if I would rather play as the Empire should I just get the first game?

super expansion, also eventually they're patching in a mega campaign so the empire can also fight dinosaurs, rats, and two more flavors of elf

Mukip
Jan 27, 2011



There will be a separate campaign released several weeks after the game launches that includes all the factions from TW1. But you'll need to own TW1 in order to play it.

The game is very similar to the first, so you could call it an expansion if you liked. Generally this is forgiven (especially by Warhammer fans), because it is part of the Great Plan to create an eventual third title that includes all 16 tabletop armies from Warhammer along with their parts of the Warhammer world. There's plenty of grouching too, so you'll just have to make up your own mind whether it's worth it to you.

Darkrenown
Jul 18, 2012

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new DLC tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

Yeah, I'm not here to poo poo on it if it's "just" a super expansion, I just wanted to know if I'd be missing out on stuff besides the setting if I stick to the first game. The mega campaign might be fun though.

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.



Honestly if you like the first game races more and don't care about MP I'd buy 1 and wait for 2 to go on sale

GaussianCopula
Jun 5, 2011



Darkrenown posted:

Yeah, I'm not here to poo poo on it if it's "just" a super expansion, I just wanted to know if I'd be missing out on stuff besides the setting if I stick to the first game. The mega campaign might be fun though.

The campaign is supposedly better paced, there is a new settlement system that allows you to settle anywhere but with potential drawbacks instead of a binary system used in game one and some other minor features such as the "rites" system.

Given that the mega campaign requires you to have both titles, you could just buy the first game and play Empire and later buy the second to have the mega campaign.

John Charity Spring
Nov 3, 2009

ACTIVATE THE QUEEN


StashAugustine posted:

Honestly if you like the first game races more and don't care about MP I'd buy 1 and wait for 2 to go on sale

Yeah. By the looks of it TWW2 will be more polished in UI stuff etc and therefore easier to get to grips with for new players, but if you're primarily interested in the Old World factions then get TWW1 for now. It's not like it's super hard to get into itself, and if you turn out to like it then you'd want to own it for the mega-campaign in 2 anyway.

Gonkish
May 19, 2004



Whorelord posted:

what is the difference between tactical and strategic? I never know.

Tactics are "how will I win this battle?". Strategy is "how will we win this war?". In-game, pretty much everything you do in the battles is a tactic. The things you do on the campaign map tend to be strategic.

Tactics are short-term, immediate things. Take this hill, execute a flanking maneuver, etc. Strategy is longer term stuff, like picking which city to attack and with what forces.

Funky Valentine
Feb 26, 2014

Dojyaa~an


Tactics - How do I destroy these elves right in front of me?
Strategy - How do I destroy all elves in the world?

Gonkish
May 19, 2004



Funky Valentine posted:

Tactics - How do I destroy these elves right in front of me?
Strategy - How do I destroy all elves in the world?

This is the best description.

The official TW twitch channel is now streaming a launch party for the game, and currently they're giving interviews to a woman who is likely bored out of her skull. At least she's trying to be nice about it, rather than yawning in their faces, but yeah talking about the game has to be painful when you can't just talk about how to best murder all elves.

Dark_Swordmaster
Oct 31, 2011


Yeah, that's what loving sucks though. 2 has some small to medium innovations that change the game for the better and, more than likely if you like the first game map or races and don't want to play the combined map you can go gently caress yourself.

I'd really love for them to backport these updates, especially because they already have to do half the work for combining the two games, but it's extremely unlikely and so the first and eventually second games will become dilapidated and poo poo if you want to play them as standalone.

You might argue that Shogun 2 didn't receive Rome 2's improvements didn't receive Atilla's improvements, but those games weren't designed from the start to play together and be one giant game.

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT HOW I GHOULISHLY CELEBRATE THE DEATH OF CHILDREN TO TEACH THEIR PARENTS "A LESSON"


I have to question the OP regarding toggling "run." IIRC the penalties to fatigue at battle start are inconsequential to move in position at a run. You'd only use walk if you need to regain stamina.

GuardianOfAsgaard
Feb 1, 2012

Their steel shines red
With enemy blood
It sings of victory
Granted by the Gods


Submarine Sandpaper posted:

You'd only use walk if you need to regain stamina.

Is this even a thing anymore? I thought you couldn't rest units to recover stamina like in older TWs?

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT HOW I GHOULISHLY CELEBRATE THE DEATH OF CHILDREN TO TEACH THEIR PARENTS "A LESSON"


GuardianOfAsgaard posted:

Is this even a thing anymore? I thought you couldn't rest units to recover stamina like in older TWs?

I've definitely done it with very long wood elf defenses with the hawk riders.

jokes
Dec 20, 2012
jokes

Submarine Sandpaper posted:

I've definitely done it with very long wood elf defenses with the hawk riders.

Same. I always thought walking didn't let them recuperate. With particularly hardy and boring tarpit-on-tarpit fights (VC on VC), the winning strategy is sometimes to cycle fresh units in and let the beleaguered ones recuperate.

Vlex
Aug 4, 2006
I'd rather be a climbing ape than a big titty angel.





Dark_Swordmaster posted:

You might argue that Shogun 2 didn't receive Rome 2's improvements didn't receive Atilla's improvements, but those games weren't designed from the start to play together and be one giant game.

I remember reading that TWW1 was originally not going to mesh with 2, and that many of the FLCs we have today are the result of the game's rampant success emboldening the publisher and permitting CA to go nuts with TWW2. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it was designed to be played as a giant game and the fact that the joint map is coming out after the game is released, rather than being the main feature, suggests to me that they were envisioned as standalones first.

Third World Reggin
May 19, 2008



the only time I've had to deal with stamina is with mods because vanilla battles shouldn't last that long

Ze Pollack
May 31, 2006


Dark_Swordmaster posted:

Yeah, that's what loving sucks though. 2 has some small to medium innovations that change the game for the better and, more than likely if you like the first game map or races and don't want to play the combined map you can go gently caress yourself.

I'd really love for them to backport these updates, especially because they already have to do half the work for combining the two games, but it's extremely unlikely and so the first and eventually second games will become dilapidated and poo poo if you want to play them as standalone.

You might argue that Shogun 2 didn't receive Rome 2's improvements didn't receive Atilla's improvements, but those games weren't designed from the start to play together and be one giant game.

most glaring example of which being the legendary lord item quests

in 2 they can be accomplished with a minimum of going out of your way

in 1? have fun running agents all over the planet and building ludicrously specific army comps, loser

GuardianOfAsgaard
Feb 1, 2012

Their steel shines red
With enemy blood
It sings of victory
Granted by the Gods


Vlex posted:

I remember reading that TWW1 was originally not going to mesh with 2, and that many of the FLCs we have today are the result of the game's rampant success emboldening the publisher and permitting CA to go nuts with TWW2. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it was designed to be played as a giant game and the fact that the joint map is coming out after the game is released, rather than being the main feature, suggests to me that they were envisioned as standalones first.

It was always planned as a trilogy with a giant stitched together map the end goal, at least as early as the initial TWWH1 announcement.

unwantedplatypus
Sep 6, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 19 hours!


Dark_Swordmaster posted:

Yeah, that's what loving sucks though. 2 has some small to medium innovations that change the game for the better and, more than likely if you like the first game map or races and don't want to play the combined map you can go gently caress yourself.

I'd really love for them to backport these updates, especially because they already have to do half the work for combining the two games, but it's extremely unlikely and so the first and eventually second games will become dilapidated and poo poo if you want to play them as standalone.

You might argue that Shogun 2 didn't receive Rome 2's improvements didn't receive Atilla's improvements, but those games weren't designed from the start to play together and be one giant game.

You bought game 1, you got game 1. You received what you paid for. Why are you complaining that you aren't receiving more than what you expressly paid for? It's not like game 1 is broken and it has received extensive updates

Fellblade
Apr 28, 2009


Vlex posted:

I remember reading that TWW1 was originally not going to mesh with 2, and that many of the FLCs we have today are the result of the game's rampant success emboldening the publisher and permitting CA to go nuts with TWW2. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it was designed to be played as a giant game and the fact that the joint map is coming out after the game is released, rather than being the main feature, suggests to me that they were envisioned as standalones first.

I guess you could argue pre-orders were a rampant success, but the combined map has been a planned/publisized feature since before TWW1 was released.

E;fb

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT HOW I GHOULISHLY CELEBRATE THE DEATH OF CHILDREN TO TEACH THEIR PARENTS "A LESSON"


jokes posted:

Same. I always thought walking didn't let them recuperate. With particularly hardy and boring tarpit-on-tarpit fights (VC on VC), the winning strategy is sometimes to cycle fresh units in and let the beleaguered ones recuperate.

You may be right about walking. Apparently a party elite vid has the actual numbers but I'm at work.

Vlex
Aug 4, 2006
I'd rather be a climbing ape than a big titty angel.





GuardianOfAsgaard posted:

It was always planned as a trilogy with a giant stitched together map the end goal, at least as early as the initial TWWH1 announcement.

You got a source for that? Asking out of genuine curiosity.

Dark_Swordmaster
Oct 31, 2011


Vlex posted:

You got a source for that? Asking out of genuine curiosity.

What I remember too. I don't have a link offhand but I'm sure the PCGamer article announcing it would say it.

unwantedplatypus posted:

You bought game 1, you got game 1. You received what you paid for. Why are you complaining that you aren't receiving more than what you expressly paid for? It's not like game 1 is broken and it has received extensive updates

But game 2 and game 3 are going to have some pretty great updates that 1 would benefit from greatly. It's mildly like if they didn't update Starcraft II with each expansion. The fact that these were always planned as one big game means it sucks if the first game doesn't get those little engine updates.

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT HOW I GHOULISHLY CELEBRATE THE DEATH OF CHILDREN TO TEACH THEIR PARENTS "A LESSON"


Dark_Swordmaster posted:

But game 2 and game 3 are going to have some pretty great updates that 1 would benefit from greatly. It's mildly like if they didn't update Starcraft II with each expansion. The fact that these were always planned as one big game means it sucks if the first game doesn't get those little engine updates.
Since you're able to come up with examples as to why a completely different product is not patched can you think of a reason why it's standard across the industry. Furthermore why the gently caress doesn't my windows xp have cortana?

Ammanas
Jul 17, 2005

Voltes V: "Laser swooooooooord!"

Submarine Sandpaper posted:

Since you're able to come up with examples as to why a completely different product is not patched can you think of a reason why it's standard across the industry. Furthermore why the gently caress doesn't my windows xp have cortana?

Its not exactly a completely different product, nor is the Windows comparison applicable. They could absolutely port the improvements back to TW1, its the same engine. It'd just be a major waste of resources. Just wait for the combined map if the Old World is that critical to you.

Carcer
Aug 7, 2010


Submarine Sandpaper posted:

I have to question the OP regarding toggling "run." IIRC the penalties to fatigue at battle start are inconsequential to move in position at a run. You'd only use walk if you need to regain stamina.


It can still add up. IIRC the final stage of exhaustion is way more severe than the previous step, so if you reach it before the enemy it could tip the balance in the melee.

Carcer fucked around with this message at Sep 27, 2017 around 21:18

Ammanas
Jul 17, 2005

Voltes V: "Laser swooooooooord!"

Also walking does recover stamina, albiet something like half-rate of standing still.

Sultan Tarquin
Jul 29, 2007

and what kind of world would it be? HUH?!

They're having a pre launch party on the total war twitch and doing FFA's! https://www.twitch.tv/totalwarofficial

jokes
Dec 20, 2012
jokes

Ammanas posted:

Also walking does recover stamina, albiet something like half-rate of standing still.

Good to know. I gotta rewatch that Party Elite video.

Mans
Sep 14, 2011

We have the dimension of an empire.


Goons be like "The AI is retarded and barely a challenge" in one post and immediately after go "I don't care about MP".

If you want Human like inteligence from your opponent then that's exactly why there's multiplayer.

Whorelord posted:

what is the difference between tactical and strategic? I never know.

Strategic is how you bring more choppaz to your lads, Tactical is how you smash those stunties on that hill over there.

I ride bikes all day
Sep 10, 2007


I shitposted in the same thread for 2 years and all I got was this red text av. Ask me about my autism!



College Slice

This same discussion came up right before War of the Chosen dropped for XCOM 2. Is this like a thing now?

Why do developer make new game that better and not improve old game for free?

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Pensive
Oct 31, 2012


Vlex posted:

I remember reading that TWW1 was originally not going to mesh with 2, and that many of the FLCs we have today are the result of the game's rampant success emboldening the publisher and permitting CA to go nuts with TWW2. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it was designed to be played as a giant game and the fact that the joint map is coming out after the game is released, rather than being the main feature, suggests to me that they were envisioned as standalones first.

I think what you're confusing here is the statement that the the WH1 map and the WH2 map are not designed to fit together. This isn't because because the maga-map wasn't a thing, it's because they are optimize shape-wise to work as isolated experiences and are going to be tweaked in the big map. The way the dev's said they envision it that they are like old timey maps that are not an exact reperesentation of the world but are pretty close, with each map having been made by a different person with a different idea about how everything fit's together. You might also be thinking about a comment that was made about the norsca DLC, which is that it was a last minute thing they were not planning on doing and that's why the new norsca won't be on the WH2 or Mortal Empires map strait away.

The big combined campaign has definitely been a thing from the earliest news about the first game.

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