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not sure why we need bernie its not like the democratic party doesnt have a deep stable of youthful and charismatic progressive candidates w/ national recognition
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Sep 28, 2017 21:10
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Everyone who has ever used the "Bernie's not even a Democrat!!!" line to discredit him or the left is a dumb-dumb.
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Sep 28, 2017 21:11
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Trabisnikof posted:If Bernie is the best we can do in 2020 we are so hosed. Bernie or someone like Bernie is the best America is going to be able to do for a while. Socialism isn't really widely accepted, if you haven't noticed. More likely we're getting Kamala or someone similar.
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Sep 28, 2017 21:12
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Trabisnikof posted:If Bernie is the best we can do in 2020 we are so hosed. He'd probably beat Trump pretty handily. But there are probably better candidates for 2020, even from a leftist position.
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Sep 28, 2017 21:13
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Majorian posted:He'd probably beat Trump pretty handily. not yet there aren't
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Sep 28, 2017 21:14
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Majorian posted:He'd probably beat Trump pretty handily. I am nowhere near as confident as you that 2020 will be so easy. Even the theoretically perfect candidate will likely only be able to achieve a squeaker. It's going to be a war-time election, with the most voter suppression since Jim Crow and more dark rightwing money and pseudospeech than ever.
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Sep 28, 2017 21:17
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Condiv posted:not yet there aren't  I'm not sure who that's supposed to be?
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Sep 28, 2017 21:17
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Condiv posted:not yet there aren't Nope, but ya know, three years. Trabisnikof posted:I am nowhere near as confident as you that 2020 will be so easy. Even the theoretically perfect candidate will likely only be able to achieve a squeaker. If we were talking about Congressional elections, you'd have a point. With Trump, even a semi-competent candidate should be able to capitalize on how little he will have accomplished for his 2016 voters by then. Turnout's gonna be low for him, unless we run another extremely divisive candidate.
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Sep 28, 2017 21:18
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Majorian posted:Nope, but ya know, three years. Yeah "should" if the American voters and our media cared about that poo poo. The idea that Trump is a weak candidate ignores the reality that it doesn't matter what he achieves so long as he keeps being the symbol of regressive "gently caress your bitches." He can blame all the legislative failures on congress, he won't be wrong. Why would facts start mattering all of a sudden?
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Sep 28, 2017 21:22
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Trabisnikof posted:Yeah "should" if the American voters and our media cared about that poo poo. If their lives don't materially improve, a big chunk of them aren't going to turn out for him. They don't need to vote for the Democrats for Trump to lose.
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Sep 28, 2017 21:23
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Majorian posted:If their lives don't materially improve, a big chunk of them aren't going to turn out for him. They don't need to vote for the Democrats for Trump to lose. I'm not as confident in the people who voted Trump deciding to vote based on that sort of calculus.
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Sep 28, 2017 21:27
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Trabisnikof posted:I'm not as confident in the people who voted Trump deciding to vote based on that sort of calculus. I mean, it doesn't need to be true of 100% of his voters for it to keep him from winning. The dumbass won by 80,000 votes. You're right that a lot of people voted for him as a "gently caress your bitches," but that's not gonna be enough people to win him another election.
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Sep 28, 2017 21:29
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Does Nina Turner have a shot? I tell you what though, it's basically guaranteed the VP is gonna be the most boring old white centrist man you ever did see unless Bernie or some mythical unknown white democrat is at the top of the ticket.
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Sep 28, 2017 21:31
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Majorian posted:I mean, it doesn't need to be true of 100% of his voters for it to keep him from winning. The dumbass won by 80,000 votes. You're right that a lot of people voted for him as a "gently caress your bitches," but that's not gonna be enough people to win him another election. Sure but how many thousands or millions will be disenfranchised through voter suppression in 2020? How will any new wars impact voter apathy or turnout? You can just here them saying "sure he didn't reopen the mine but America is the land of second chances and Evil Congress has been stymying Good Trump so give him another go!" Add on top that Trump will take credit for a bunch of BS achievements and you or I will see through it, but for half the country "Trump defeated ISIS" will become a fact. And god help us if he starts a minor war and "wins" like a middle school bully wins by beating up a 3rd grader.
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Sep 28, 2017 21:35
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Futuresight posted:Does Nina Turner have a shot? Probably not for 2020, IMO, as much as I love her. She's "only" a former state senator, and while that's quite literally infinitely more political experience than Trump had before 2015, it's a negative in the Democratic primaries. Plus she's a woman of color, and as you may have noticed, this country has a bit of, as the French say, Le Petit Misogynoir. Also she's a WOC who supported Sanders, so it's erasure time! Trabisnikof posted:Sure but how many thousands or millions will be disenfranchised through voter suppression in 2020? How will any new wars impact voter apathy or turnout? Voter disenfranchisement's going to be worse than ever, but it's also not exactly a new thing. It's something that a lot of people on the left are figuring out ways to minimize and combat, where possible. I'm not sure there's a way out of Trump never having accomplished anything of value for his constituents. I don't think disenfranchisement will manage to offset the number of voters he's going to have lost by not ponying up on any of his promises. This was supposed to be a change candidate. You think voters in the states that swung from blue to red were disillusioned with Obama? Just wait until 2020. As for new wars, those don't always help an incumbent running for reelection. Obama's intervention in Libya certainly didn't help him. It's particularly a bad idea if it looks like a frivolous adventure, when a president has promised to focus on bringing back American manufacturing jobs, revitalize coal mining in Appalachia, and have a genuinely positive impact on his voters' lives. He's not going to be able to accomplish any of those things, and if he gets more involved in Syria, or starts something with North Korea that's unprovoked, it's not gonna look good on him Majorian fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Sep 28, 2017 |
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Sep 28, 2017 21:37
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Michelle Obama would be the best VP. No real responsibility. No pressure. You get to push your pet causes with relative impunity. She doesn't have to put up with anyone's crap because she's the VP. What are you going to do? Impeach? Lol
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Sep 28, 2017 22:08
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Trabisnikof posted:If Bernie is the best we can do in 2020 we are so hosed. Honestly, there doesn't seem to be anyone in the pipeline that is truly leftist in the particular way Sanders is. Sanders is the only one I feel like I can really trust to stick to his particular vision/ideology, and that's definitely a shame because it would be great if there were some younger Sanders-equivalent politicians. edit: The thing that finally sort of pushed me over the edge in realizing Sanders was truly legit was the fact that one of his possible recommended funding provisions for MfA was a wealth tax. Wealth taxes are a dramatic departure from status quo Democratic policy and represent a genuine desire to redistribute wealth. Majorian posted:But there are probably better candidates for 2020, even from a leftist position. I really can't think of anyone who could become prominent enough by 2020. Even someone like Ellison strikes me more as just a left-liberal, and while that definitely makes him better than the vast majority of Democrats (and I'd vote for him against almost any other Democrat), it's still not quite the same thing. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Sep 28, 2017 |
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Sep 28, 2017 22:11
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Ytlaya posted:I really can't think of anyone who could become prominent enough by 2020. Even someone like Ellison strikes me more as just a left-liberal, and while that definitely makes him better than the vast majority of Democrats (and I'd vote for him against almost any other Democrat), it's still not quite the same thing. I mean, it honestly depends on what people like Brown, Warren, etc, do in the next couple years (yes, my fellow lefties, I know Warren met with a banker recently, no, I'm not happy about it, and no, I don't think it should disqualify her in and of itself). "Better than Sanders, even from a leftist position" was definitely an overstatement on my part. But I wouldn't discount the possibility of someone getting close to Sanders on populist issues, while being younger than him, female, and/or a person of color. And Ellison may be a left-liberal, but I don't think there's quite as much ground separating him and Sanders as you're suggesting. Sanders may be a democratic socialist at heart, but I don't think the agenda he's promoted so far has been that different from a standard social democratic one.
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Sep 28, 2017 22:20
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Ytlaya posted:Honestly, there doesn't seem to be anyone in the pipeline that is truly leftist in the particular way Sanders is. Sanders is the only one I feel like I can really trust to stick to his particular vision/ideology, and that's definitely a shame because it would be great if there were some younger Sanders-equivalent politicians. I think a mayor, statewide elected official or even an on-the-streets activist could win the Democratic Primary in 2020 if they both a compelling vision and good organizational cadre. Every suit with ambition will be vying to win the nomination in 2020, being someone in touch with the realities of human life in America won't be as big a disadvantage as talking heads might think.
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Sep 28, 2017 22:21
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Trabisnikof posted:I think a mayor, statewide elected official or even an on-the-streets activist could win the Democratic Primary in 2020 if they both a compelling vision and good organizational cadre. There's truth to this, but after Trump, the drive among voters to return competency to the White House is going to be pretty big, IMO. Being able to balance political experience with seeming "in touch with THE PEOPLE (tm)" will probably be necessary.
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Sep 28, 2017 22:30
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I'd be down with a Nina Turner candidacy. She'd probably get Bernie's endorsement too (provided he doesn't feel compelled to run again), given that she runs the organization he set up.
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Sep 28, 2017 22:47
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Dreylad posted:it's still loving insane that americans have people trying to conjure up some fantasy where you guys getting public healthcare is bad lol People with non life-threatening illnesses having to wait longer is considered too high a price by some Americans. That some efficiency is lost so that all citizens are covered is the price accepted by most nations. In America that same compromise is spoken with contempt and disgust. It's a perversion of the "individual as king" culture. Because the individual is king then anything involving a collective becomes automatically bad with no actual debate or thought.
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Sep 28, 2017 22:51
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Regarde Aduck posted:People with non life-threatening illnesses having to wait longer is considered too high a price by some Americans. That some efficiency is lost so that all citizens are covered is the price accepted by most nations. In America that same compromise is spoken with contempt and disgust. It's a perversion of the "individual as king" culture. Because the individual is king then anything involving a collective becomes automatically bad with no actual debate or thought. And, of course, that inefficiency is a fairly easy thing to rectify, ie: by adequately funding the public health system. But, of course, eek, muh taxes, can't do that.
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Sep 28, 2017 22:58
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Elizabeth Warren is cool and good. The right is targeting her early which should tell us something. It's bizarre to put all eggs in a 78 year old Bernie basket.
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Sep 29, 2017 04:27
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Majorian posted:(yes, my fellow lefties, I know Warren met with a banker recently, no, I'm not happy about it, and no, I don't think it should disqualify her in and of itself). It does and it should.
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Sep 29, 2017 05:32
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who's keeping the list of ideologically pure 2020 candidates
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Sep 29, 2017 05:36
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The Glumslinger posted:https://twitter.com/ppppolls/status/913466992048340992 quote:Other Democrats we tested against Trump are Cory Booker who leads him 47/40, Elizabeth Warren who leads him 47/41, Kirsten Gillibrand who leads him 42/39, and Kamala Harris who leads him 41/40. Strap in and stockpile plenty of alcohol to get through 2020 if we nominate Booker or Gillibrand or Harris though.
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Sep 29, 2017 05:51
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VitalSigns posted:Strap in and stockpile plenty of alcohol to get through 2020 if we nominate Booker or Gillibrand or Harris though. Yeah, Booker especially. "Used car salesman vs. used car salesman."
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Sep 29, 2017 06:25
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The Glumslinger posted:https://twitter.com/ppppolls/status/913466992048340992 This is me officially getting on the gently caress Joe Biden train. Bottom floor baby. He's Hillary Clinton with worse positions but he's a creepy white dude who loves to mack on women in public, so him winning would reaffirm everything we think is terrible about America.
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Sep 29, 2017 07:35
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SulphagneSocialist posted:This is me officially getting on the gently caress Joe Biden train. Bottom floor baby. He's Hillary Clinton with worse positions but he's a creepy white dude who loves to mack on women in public, so him winning would reaffirm everything we think is terrible about America. Ah but if we apply the converse, since 2016 already affirmed that everything we think is terrible about America is in fact true, then Joe Biden will definitely win 
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Sep 29, 2017 07:48
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Bernie/Turner 2020?
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Sep 29, 2017 07:53
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SulphagneSocialist posted:This is me officially getting on the gently caress Joe Biden train. Bottom floor baby. He's Hillary Clinton with worse positions but he's a creepy white dude who loves to mack on women in public, so him winning would reaffirm everything we think is terrible about America. yo i've been hating on him since i found out he was in bed with credit cards yronic heroism posted:Elizabeth Warren is cool and good. The right is targeting her early which should tell us something. It's bizarre to put all eggs in a 78 year old Bernie basket. doesn't she support payday loans or some poo poo?
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Sep 29, 2017 08:04
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SulphagneSocialist posted:This is me officially getting on the gently caress Joe Biden train. Bottom floor baby. He's Hillary Clinton with worse positions but he's a creepy white dude who loves to mack on women in public, so him winning would reaffirm everything we think is terrible about America. Maybe you can only imagine it, but it's at least imaginable.
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Sep 29, 2017 08:10
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Freakazoid_ posted:doesn't she support payday loans or some poo poo? Its pretty much the opposite. https://www.thenation.com/article/elizabeth-warrens-fight-against-payday-lenders-comes-to-the-post-office/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO-1BNfErRc
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Sep 29, 2017 08:12
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Freakazoid_ posted:doesn't she support payday loans or some poo poo? http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/warren-wasserman-schultz-clash-over-payday-lenders as one example.
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Sep 29, 2017 08:13
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What the gently caress kind of brain damage is it where people constantly attribute the opposite of a thing to a person and is there some virus we can engineer to neutralize this in the human population? Maybe democracy isn't such a great idea after all.
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Sep 29, 2017 08:15
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Freakazoid_ posted:doesn't she support payday loans or some poo poo? That was DWS, who really is awful. e: I doubt she wrote this memo, but this is the sort of awful Democratic strategy that I associate with her: 
Majorian fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Sep 29, 2017 |
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Sep 29, 2017 08:15
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Majorian posted:That was DWS, who really is awful. I expect all politicians to be cynical, but this is some cynical poo poo right here.
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Sep 29, 2017 13:48
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Majorian posted:Yeah, Booker especially. "Used car salesman vs. used car salesman." More like Guy who saves people from burning buildings vs White Supremacist who grabs women's vaginas without their consent.
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Sep 29, 2017 14:41
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Koalas March posted:More like Guy who saves people from burning buildings vs White Supremacist who grabs women's vaginas without their consent. Still equal.
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Sep 29, 2017 15:08
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