|
karthun posted:Its pretty much the opposite. Yeah, I guess the smear machine is already in high gear if random people are coming into D&D believing this poo poo. http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/wasserman-schultz-elizabeth-warren-payday-lending-223802
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 16:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 06:12 |
|
|
yronic heroism posted:Yeah, I guess the smear machine is already in high gear if random people are coming into D&D believing this poo poo. Payday loan offices are loving evil and often lure in the poorest and most vulnerable with the promise of FREE MONEY NOW! And almost always lands them in more debt. They should be abolished. Phone posting because I'm out running errands but someone post the John Oliver video for this page please.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 16:50
|
|
|
Koalas March posted:More like Guy who saves people from burning buildings vs White Supremacist who grabs women's vaginas without their consent. Oh, I'm not denying that, believe me. In terms of karma, Corey Booker's a hell of a lot closer to the positive side of the spectrum than Donald J. "Literal rapist, unapologetic white supremacist, and huckster to the core" Trump. But Booker's got an authenticity problem among the Democratic base, and not entirely unfairly. He comes off as an opportunist, and a lot of his voting record lends credence to that. Koalas March posted:Payday loan offices are loving evil and often lure in the poorest and most vulnerable with the promise of FREE MONEY NOW! And almost always lands them in more debt. drat fine piece. Majorian fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Sep 29, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 17:09
|
|
|
I'm not gonna argue that there are not legitimate reasons to be skeptical of Booker, my problem is that the only people I ever see raising these concerns are white liberals and leftists. I also don't believe in Cory's authenticity problem or whatever. Dude seems a lot more into helping on a personal level and I'm skeptical of the circular firing squad coming after him. I also don't believe we need to start shooting these people so soon. No one's even running yet and everyone is so ready to tear down any front runner, which is especially dangerous now that we know about Russian tactics trying to tear the liberals apart by running pro Sanders and Stein ads. We need to lockstep with whoever the next nominee is. Yeah in an ideal world, we'd have a great candidate who ticks all our political boxes, but this the world where Trump is President. And splitting the vote will only assure he stays that way. Koalas March fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Sep 29, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 17:25
|
|
|
^^^ Criticism doesn't imply not voting, though. I'll end up voting for whoever ends up getting the Democratic nomination, even if I don't like them. While you could argue that criticism could possibly encourage people to not vote, at that point you're suggesting the flat-out crazy idea that criticism or anything else that has a non-zero chance of hurting election chances should be quashed (and one could very easily make the argument that attempts to shut down such criticism are more harmful than the criticism itself). Regarding Cory Booker, I feel like criticism towards him specifically has dropped off somewhat recently. This seems to be because he doesn't seem to be the ideal "establishment" front-runner anymore (Kamala Harris was receiving some focus a while back). There's a bit of a problem where you're probably not wrong about there being some racial element to the magnitude of criticism, but on the other hand these people are undoubtedly floated as top choices for primary candidates. The only white male who currently seems likely at all to become the mainstream Democratic primary candidate is Biden, and (at least on these forums) he also receives a ton of criticism any time he comes up in the news in a manner potentially related to running for president. My feeling is that insinuations like this (that is, randomly suggesting people have evil motives for their criticism of folks like Booker) are kinda dumb and counterproductive. If someone makes a criticism that is wrong in some way, call them out on that. But when you insinuate things like this, it's basically the same thing as saying "I don't really have any answer to your criticism, but I'm still not happy about it!" edit: By the way, one other lovely thing about Cory Booker (other than the oft-mentioned finance industry connections) is that he has been a strong supporter of education privatization/charter schools. As far as I'm concerned, stuff like that should disqualify someone from consideration. Majorian posted:I mean, it honestly depends on what people like Brown, Warren, etc, do in the next couple years (yes, my fellow lefties, I know Warren met with a banker recently, no, I'm not happy about it, and no, I don't think it should disqualify her in and of itself). "Better than Sanders, even from a leftist position" was definitely an overstatement on my part. But I wouldn't discount the possibility of someone getting close to Sanders on populist issues, while being younger than him, female, and/or a person of color. All those people would be acceptable, but I would choose Sanders in a heartbeat above any of them, and that's not going to change unless one of them has some sort of revelation and becomes a socialist in the next few years. Even though the policies he supports in the short-term are mostly the same as those supported by the other prominent left-leaning Democrats, he frames them as part of a greater push for more ambitious and specifically socialist future change. Like, practically speaking Sanders would probably do pretty much the same stuff policy-wise as, say, Warren or Ellison if election to office. But I think there's value to having someone specifically socialist as president who can help normalize and increase the popularity of the ideology. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Sep 29, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 17:51
|
|
|
Booker seems like an authentically nice guy, but those bank connections. 😖 He gives some drat good speeches.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 18:00
|
|
|
Koalas March posted:Payday loan offices are loving evil and often lure in the poorest and most vulnerable with the promise of FREE MONEY NOW! And almost always lands them in more debt. I agree with this 100% if that wasn't clear. Was just chiming in that in no way does Warren support them, since apparently that's what the whisper campaign now would have people believe.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 18:33
|
|
|
Forget booker run his best friend T-bone who sounds way better http://www.nationalreview.com/article/357064/cory-bookers-imaginary-friend-eliana-johnson
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 18:36
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:^^^ Criticism doesn't imply not voting, though. I'll end up voting for whoever ends up getting the Democratic nomination, even if I don't like them. While you could argue that criticism could possibly encourage people to not vote, at that point you're suggesting the flat-out crazy idea that criticism or anything else that has a non-zero chance of hurting election chances should be quashed (and one could very easily make the argument that attempts to shut down such criticism are more harmful than the criticism itself). Yeah, impugning motives is bad. Like, let's stop doing it. "Democratic socialism" isn't actually socialism though. It's just using the word. It really just seems to mean expanded welfare state to include college/health care. The Bernie platforn doesn't really represent much of an ideological schism outside of trade. And I suspect trade deals would still get done with Bernie too. yronic heroism fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Sep 29, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 18:45
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/Marketplace/status/913422360526671873 This is why Dems suck and Hillary lost.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 19:41
|
|
|
Mr Hootington posted:https://twitter.com/Marketplace/status/913422360526671873 Tbf I like La Croix and I'm far from a Hillbot. Oh poo poo, did I just trigger a Thunderdome throwdown?
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 19:43
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Tbf I like La Croix and I'm far from a Hillbot. Aren't you white and well off? It is catnip to those folks.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 19:45
|
|
|
yronic heroism posted:"Democratic socialism" isn't actually socialism though. It's just using the word. It really just seems to mean expanded welfare state to include college/health care. The Bernie platforn doesn't really represent much of an ideological schism outside of trade. And I suspect trade deals would still get done with Bernie too.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 19:51
|
|
|
Kilroy posted:The core value of democratic socialism is employee ownership and democratic control of industry within that context. It is socialism. What policy has Sanders proposed to establish employee ownership?
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 19:58
|
|
|
I guess there's stuff he cosponsored with noted "socialists" Gillibrand and Leahy. https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/recent-business/legislative-package-introduced-to-encourage-employee-owned-companies
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 20:02
|
|
|
Kilroy posted:The core value of democratic socialism is employee ownership and democratic control of industry within that context. It is socialism. Those two categories can not coexist. Democratic socialism merely tries to impose a limit on arbitrary decision making by property owners, it gives employees no positive control.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 20:02
|
|
|
Mr Hootington posted:https://twitter.com/Marketplace/status/913422360526671873 Marketplace is poo poo. Remember when they fired a reporter for daring to say this: quote:Sharing his own perspective as a transgender person, he said, “I can’t be neutral or centrist in a debate over my own humanity. The idea that I don’t have a right to exist is not an opinion, it is a falsehood. On that note, can people of color be expected to give credence to ‘both sides’ of a dispute with a white supremacist, a person who holds unscientific and morally reprehensible views on the very nature of being human? Should any of us do that?”
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 20:09
|
|
|
steinrokkan posted:Those two categories can not coexist. Democratic socialism merely tries to impose a limit on arbitrary decision making by property owners, it gives employees no positive control. No, that's social democracy. Democratic socialism is socialism - i.e., worker control of the means of production. Democratic socialist politicians often advocate for social democracy, because they see it as an incremental means to an end. E: poor word choice. Falstaff fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Sep 29, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 20:21
|
|
|
Mr Hootington posted:Aren't you white and well off? It is catnip to those folks. I'm definitely white, but I wouldn't call myself well-off - I work for a charity and don't have a trust fund. Still, yeah, pretty firmly in the La Croix demo. Standard disclaimer: I don't actually like the stuff, but it keeps me from drinking soda, which is always the number 1 priority for any middle class white dude.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 20:26
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/chewittodeath/status/913835078698053632
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 20:30
|
|
|
Majorian posted:I'm definitely white, but I wouldn't call myself well-off - I work for a charity and don't have a trust fund. Majorian posted:don't have a trust fund. This is a weirdly specific thing to deny.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 20:44
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:This is a weirdly specific thing to deny. I think he was just saying "my ancestors weren't rich"
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 20:53
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:This is a weirdly specific thing to deny. Not when you work for a charity
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 21:00
|
|
|
yronic heroism posted:What policy has Sanders proposed to establish employee ownership?
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 21:11
|
|
|
Majorian posted:That was DWS, who really is awful. oh, right Kilroy posted:What the gently caress kind of brain damage is it where people constantly attribute the opposite of a thing to a person and is there some virus we can engineer to neutralize this in the human population? i don't think you know what thread you're in
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 21:13
|
|
|
steinrokkan posted:Those two categories can not coexist. Democratic socialism merely tries to impose a limit on arbitrary decision making by property owners, it gives employees no positive control.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 21:13
|
|
|
I mean I'm not going to post the Wikipedia link, but perhaps some of you need to Google a bit or something before running your idiot mouths?Freakazoid_ posted:i don't think you know what thread you're in 
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 21:15
|
|
|
Kilroy posted:What does that have to do with anything? You claimed democratic socialism isn't socialism. You are wrong. The whole point of this thread was discussing specific political figures and Ytlaya contends Sanders is a socialist. So the conversation is about pressing for an example of this supposed socialism. Whether some theoretical "democratic socialism" is socialist doesn't answer whether the ideology as defined/proposed by Bernie Sanders is. Maybe not as fascinating as picking apart comments divorced from their context, but oh well.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 21:27
|
|
|
yronic heroism posted:The whole point of this thread was discussing specific political figures and Ytlaya contends Sanders is a socialist. So the conversation is about pressing for an example of this supposed socialism. Whether some theoretical "democratic socialism" is socialist doesn't answer whether the ideology as defined/proposed by Bernie Sanders is. Maybe not as fascinating as picking apart comments divorced from their context, but oh well.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 21:44
|
|
|
Yeah, assuming I read them correctly, the difference Ytlaya was pointing out is between achieving M4A and saying "There, we're done!" and achieving M4A and saying, "Great, but we've got a lot more work to do."
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 21:50
|
|
|
Falstaff posted:No, that's social democracy. Democratic socialism is socialism - i.e., worker control of the means of production. It is not in the real world.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 21:57
|
|
|
Kilroy posted:What can not coexist? Democratic control of industry and employee ownership? How do you figure? Private property and worker democracy.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 21:57
|
|
|
steinrokkan posted:It is not in the real world. Okay, I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 22:00
|
|
|
Falstaff posted:Yeah, assuming I read them correctly, the difference Ytlaya was pointing out is between achieving M4A and saying "There, we're done!" and achieving M4A and saying, "Great, but we've got a lot more work to do." That's great in the long term. But in the long term we're all dead (because we can't afford healthcare).
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 22:05
|
|
|
steinrokkan posted:Private property and worker democracy. Are you looking at this from some Randian perspective or something where any imposition on a company (like forcing worker representation on a board or something) is viewed as "theft" and therefore is equivalent to the abolition of private property? Because if so I have some bad news for you about the current regulatory regime...
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 22:24
|
|
|
Kilroy posted:Okay you're going to need to expand on that because we already have workplace democracy right now for some businesses, and I'm pretty sure we still have private property. What the gently caress What gave you the impression i was talking from a libertarian perspective Also there is no significant worker democracy in any western country. All forms of such have been relegated to vestigial roles.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 22:28
|
|
|
"Democratic socialism doesn't do enough to promote worker democracy" "Wow, wow, settle down Ayn Rand, why are you jumping to defend property owners"
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 22:29
|
|
|
I have the feeling that we're talking past each other, because the idea that western democracies are capitalist is probably not going to shock anyone.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 22:29
|
|
|
The only conflict is whether what is being floated as democratic socialism in real world (i.e. Bernie Sanders) is socialism in anything but name. It seems to be obviously not the case, but eh, who cares.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 22:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 06:12 |
|
|
steinrokkan posted:What the gently caress My reaction is based on your apparent assertion that workplace democracy precludes private property. That doesn't make any sense to me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 23:05
|
|