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handsome only face
Apr 22, 2010

Cockroach went out of the room in anger. And roach's go to empty room...

Cockroache's Anarchist




penn vs sakuraba any time 98-01 or something would've owned

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Fat Twitter Man
Jan 24, 2007

by R. Guyovich


I'm sure other people have more examples, but the guy I think of who should have been a huge star and missed out was Barnett. UFC champ at 24, failed a drug test. He could have been a dominant and popular champ through the Sylvia-Arlovski years if he'd held onto the belt. Came just short in a really dirty fight for the 2006 Pride GP title. Lost his chance to be the guy to end Fedor's streak in Affliction because steroids again. Lost those fights to Browne and Rothwell in his second UFC run (not that I think he could get the belt against guys like Miocic and Werdum, but he'd be at least an Overeem-level star). And now he failed yet another drug test and will probably never fight again.

CRISPYBABY
Dec 15, 2007

*~ayoo comin thru~*


willie_dee posted:

A guy I've trained with is currently sat in a caravan playing scrabble with Conor near the SBG. I'm not sure Conor is doing the whole rented Lambo thing 24/7

I wanna see what kinda words Irish people use in scrabble

I am Otis
Sep 22, 2003



Fat Twitter Man posted:

I'm sure other people have more examples, but the guy I think of who should have been a huge star and missed out was Barnett. UFC champ at 24, failed a drug test. He could have been a dominant and popular champ through the Sylvia-Arlovski years if he'd held onto the belt. Came just short in a really dirty fight for the 2006 Pride GP title. Lost his chance to be the guy to end Fedor's streak in Affliction because steroids again. Lost those fights to Browne and Rothwell in his second UFC run (not that I think he could get the belt against guys like Miocic and Werdum, but he'd be at least an Overeem-level star). And now he failed yet another drug test and will probably never fight again.

I agree about barnett. To me, Barnett is a what could have been who still ended up having a good career bc of the heavyfights get better with age thing.

Him and Fedor would have been dope. He was also good on the mic in a goofus kind of way and would attract the sword-weilding and magic the gathering crowd. I remember a vid of Josh doing a kettlebell-style workout using a fuckin mace lol

Trast
Oct 20, 2010

Three games, thousands of playthroughs. 90% of the players don't know I exist. Still a redhead saving the galaxy with a [Right Hook].



Lid posted:

There's another universe where Khabib is fighting TJ Grant for the title.

TJ Grant would retain when Khabib's kidneys crumble to dust.

Noctone
Oct 25, 2005

XO til we overdose..


attackmole posted:

I wanna see what kinda words Irish people use in scrabble

cabbage

Fat Twitter Man
Jan 24, 2007

by R. Guyovich


I am Otis posted:

I agree about barnett. To me, Barnett is a what could have been who still ended up having a good career bc of the heavyfights get better with age thing.

Him and Fedor would have been dope. He was also good on the mic in a goofus kind of way and would attract the sword-weilding and magic the gathering crowd. I remember a vid of Josh doing a kettlebell-style workout using a fuckin mace lol

It's true heavyweights stay good for a long time, but Barnett has been falling just short of greatness for over 15 years. He's had so many chances and literally pissed most of them away.

I am Otis
Sep 22, 2003



So true. Rumor has it his pee pee melted thru the bottom of the piss collector's cup

Bundt Cake
Aug 16, 2003
;(

barnett roiding is an integral part of hw history

TheTofuShop
Aug 28, 2009



handsome only face posted:

penn vs sakuraba any time 98-01 or something would've owned

ugh this would have been the best

Bundt Cake
Aug 16, 2003
;(

Fat Twitter Man posted:

I'm busting my brain trying to think how Penn or Shogun could have had better careers. Penn's biggest problem was lack of competition at 145/155 which made him do things like fight at heavyweight. Shogun even came back to win the UFC title after getting written off as washed up. The only thing there is to say about those guys is that they peaked really young.

what if shoguns knees didnt break

what if bj had got the armbar on jens even 1 second earlier in their first fight? can't remember which round but jens tapped at the bell. also what if BJ didn't leave UFC

Bundt Cake
Aug 16, 2003
;(

what if barnett didn't take roids is too big of a what if imo

Chris James 2
Aug 9, 2012

plz remember that it was ~ME~ who told you that everything you like is actually really not good, because I knew all along.


What if Cain could stay healthy for even one full day

Fat Twitter Man
Jan 24, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Bundt Cake posted:

what if shoguns knees didnt break

what if bj had got the armbar on jens even 1 second earlier in their first fight? can't remember which round but jens tapped at the bell. also what if BJ didn't leave UFC

If shogun's knees didn't break he wouldn't have lost to Forrest, could have gotten the LHW title from Rampage, then got outwrestled by Rashad to lose it. Or maybe beaten Rashad and Machida before being crushed by JBJ

Too many what ifs with BJ, but I guess he could have been an earlier Anderson Silva type champ if everything had gone perfectly in the UFC? I think moving up was a big part of what made him great even when he lost and I don't think there's any scenario where BJ stays at 155 and in the UFC before 2007

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


vainman posted:

Unless the only metric you count for a good career is number of loses, I don't know what could have been better for Penn and shogun

For Penn, sticking around at lightweight a bit longer, not kidding himself about being a welterweight. Maybe dropping down. For Shogun, not completely falling apart before he was 30. Remember his rematch with Marc Coleman, where he managed to gas out worse than a man nearly 20 years older than him? I mean, there probably isn't a universe where he beats Jon Jones, but there's definitely one where he beats OSP.

Fat Twitter Man
Jan 24, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Snowman_McK posted:

For Penn, sticking around at lightweight a bit longer, not kidding himself about being a welterweight. Maybe dropping down. For Shogun, not completely falling apart before he was 30. Remember his rematch with Marc Coleman, where he managed to gas out worse than a man nearly 20 years older than him? I mean, there probably isn't a universe where he beats Jon Jones, but there's definitely one where he beats OSP.

Who would BJ Penn have fought at lightweight (lol featherweight) in the UFC between 2004 and 2007?

CRISPYBABY
Dec 15, 2007

*~ayoo comin thru~*


Yves Edwards, hopefully.

El Roncho
Oct 15, 2006

I'm not necessarily proud of this but I'm gonna leave it here anyways.

What if Yves Edwards kicked BJ's brains out before he gained a lot of traction is a fun what if scenario.

I think BJ would have just subbed him though.

Fat Twitter Man
Jan 24, 2007

by R. Guyovich


attackmole posted:

Yves Edwards, hopefully.

That would have been cool but the what if is more the UFC investing in a 155 division in the Dark Ages. Penn beating Pulver and Uno early in his career would have made that more likely but still not that likely. Without a strong 155 division full of contenders BJ will get bored and fat.

LobsterMobster
Oct 29, 2009

"I was being quiet and trying to be a good boy but he dialed the right combination to open the throw-down vault and it was on."

"Walter Foxx is ten times brighter than your bulb at the bottom of the tree merry xmas"


I mean, in theory, if Penn and like, literally the other 2 dudes in the division stuck around, maybe the UFC would have signed some more 155ers, like babby Giblert

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


Fat Twitter Man posted:

Who would BJ Penn have fought at lightweight (lol featherweight) in the UFC between 2004 and 2007?

I was thinking around 2010. I know why he left when he did. After Edgar, he went up to Welterweight and has not won a fight since. If he sticks around at lightweight then, he's got the WEC newcomers and eventually the Strikeforce ones. poo poo, he could have just had some fun running through middle of the packers.

I mean, I know he wouldn't, because part of what made him interesting is that he loved throwing himself at big challenges.

Fat Twitter Man posted:

That would have been cool but the what if is more the UFC investing in a 155 division in the Dark Ages. Penn beating Pulver and Uno early in his career would have made that more likely but still not that likely. Without a strong 155 division full of contenders BJ will get bored and fat.

That's not really fair, he got pretty fat even when there were contenders.

Fat Twitter Man
Jan 24, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Snowman_McK posted:

I was thinking around 2010. I know why he left when he did. After Edgar, he went up to Welterweight and has not won a fight since. If he sticks around at lightweight then, he's got the WEC newcomers and eventually the Strikeforce ones. poo poo, he could have just had some fun running through middle of the packers.

I mean, I know he wouldn't, because part of what made him interesting is that he loved throwing himself at big challenges.


That's not really fair, he got pretty fat even when there were contenders.

BJ Penn moved up in 2010 because Frankie beat him twice at LW and he didn't want to be in the division if he wasn't champion. He did okay at WW 2010-2012, beat Hughes and drew with Fitch, did decent against Diaz. Not sure what having fights with Clay Guida or whatever would have done for his legacy or why you think he'd do better at featherweight in 2012 than he did in 2014.

BJ was done when Frankie beat him the second time and just took a while to figure it out. Same with Shogun after losing to Jones. You're confusing "how could his career have been better" with "what if he'd been in his prime forever"

vainman
Nov 2, 2012

I find your lack of faith... disturbing

Fat Twitter Man posted:

You're confusing "how could his career have been better" with "what if he'd been in his prime forever"

Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. I also think fighting heavyweights is a better legacy then beating uno a bunch more times or whatever

Work Friend Keven
Oct 24, 2015

I'M A BIG STUPID IDIOT WHO GETS TRIGGERED FROM THE WORDS SPORTS BALL AND HAS SHIT OPINIONS ABOUT CARD GAMES. ALSO I SAID I WAS GOING TO QUIT HEARTHSTONE OUT OF SPITE OF A TAIWANESE WINNING THE CHAMPIONSHIP SO REPORT ME IF YOU SEE ME POST IN A HS THREAD


Fat Twitter Man posted:

If shogun's knees didn't break he wouldn't have lost to Forrest, could have gotten the LHW title from Rampage, then got outwrestled by Rashad to lose it. Or maybe beaten Rashad and Machida before being crushed by JBJ

Too many what ifs with BJ, but I guess he could have been an earlier Anderson Silva type champ if everything had gone perfectly in the UFC? I think moving up was a big part of what made him great even when he lost and I don't think there's any scenario where BJ stays at 155 and in the UFC before 2007

I think BJs career was good & a willingness to consistently take hard fights for over a decade generally counts for a lot in MMA.

Memento
Aug 25, 2009




Clapping Larry

Work Friend Keven posted:

I think BJs career was good & a willingness to consistently take hard fights for over a decade generally counts for a lot in MMA.

Absolutely, the man is in the Hall of Fame for a reason. I would have said he should have retired after the second Frankie loss but that would have deprived the world of watching Matt Hughes crumple after 20 seconds. He should have definitely retired after that.

Fat Twitter Man
Jan 24, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Work Friend Keven posted:

I think BJs career was good & a willingness to consistently take hard fights for over a decade generally counts for a lot in MMA.

agreed

Memento posted:

Absolutely, the man is in the Hall of Fame for a reason. I would have said he should have retired after the second Frankie loss but that would have deprived the world of watching Matt Hughes crumple after 20 seconds. He should have definitely retired after that.

agreed

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


Fat Twitter Man posted:

Not sure what having fights with Clay Guida or whatever would have done for his legacy or why you think he'd do better at featherweight in 2012 than he did in 2014.

I'm not sure what you think the last few (seven) years have done for his legacy, or why beating Maynard, Cerrone, Pettis, Grant or any of the other excellent lightweights that were in the UFC circa 2010-11 would have been worse.

Fat Twitter Man posted:

You're confusing "how could his career have been better" with "what if he'd been in his prime forever"

I'm really not. I'm wondering what Shogun could have been if his knees didn't dissolve before he was 30. For Shogun it was just a bunch of bad luck regarding injuries, long recovery, and the bad effect that had on his training and thus career. That's not 'passing his physical prime' that's just him dissolving very young. I mean, I'm thirty. I'm past my physical prime, yet I can stand up from a couch unassisted and I haven't had half a dozen major surgeries to my joints.

Their careers didn't flounder for the same reason. for Penn it was his personality, where he had enormous trouble getting motivated and had to be tricked into realising his potential. Spending ill advised time at Welter and getting the poo poo kicked out of him by six footers like Diaz and Rory (who beat him in 2012, a period you thought he did okay in) can't have helped. I mean, Penn came in worse for the second Frankie fight. He doesn't seem to respond to adversity well.

Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at Oct 12, 2017 around 00:28

Gay Horney
Feb 9, 2013


Snowman_McK posted:

I'm not sure what you think the last few (seven) years have done for his legacy, or why beating Maynard, Cerrone, Pettis, Grant or any of the other excellent lightweights that were in the UFC circa 2010-11 would have been worse.


I'm really not. I'm wondering what Shogun could have been if his knees didn't dissolve before he was 30. For Shogun it was just a bunch of bad luck regarding injuries, long recovery, and the bad effect that had on his training and thus career. That's not 'passing his physical prime' that's just him dissolving very young. I mean, I'm thirty. I'm past my physical prime, yet I can stand up from a couch unassisted and I haven't had half a dozen major surgeries to my joints.

Their careers didn't flounder for the same reason. for Penn it was his personality, where he had enormous trouble getting motivated and had to be tricked into realising his potential. Spending ill advised time at Welter and getting the poo poo kicked out of him by six footers like Diaz and Rory (who beat him in 2012, a period you thought he did okay in) can't have helped. I mean, Penn came in worse for the second Frankie fight. He doesn't seem to respond to adversity well.

fighting and being a beast ages you much faster than whatever the gently caress it is you're clowning around with

chaleski
Apr 25, 2014



I imagine nothing shortened Shogun's career more than getting beat to a paste by Chute Boxe every day

Memento
Aug 25, 2009




Clapping Larry

chaleski posted:

I imagine nothing shortened Shogun's career more than getting beat to a paste by Chute Boxe every day

What shortened career? That's the #5 Light Heavyweight in the world there mate!

Bundt Cake
Aug 16, 2003
;(

Fat Twitter Man posted:

If shogun's knees didn't break he wouldn't have lost to Forrest, could have gotten the LHW title from Rampage, then got outwrestled by Rashad to lose it. Or maybe beaten Rashad and Machida before being crushed by JBJ

Too many what ifs with BJ, but I guess he could have been an earlier Anderson Silva type champ if everything had gone perfectly in the UFC? I think moving up was a big part of what made him great even when he lost and I don't think there's any scenario where BJ stays at 155 and in the UFC before 2007

I think BJ probably wouldve had some ups and downs as WW champ if he hadn't left, and as LW champ if he'd gotten the sub on jens or gotten the W against Uno. But I think hed have fought some more relevant guys. Its ballsy to fight Rodrigo Gracie if you're BJ but no one even really knows who rodrigo is now because he never fought enough to get the rep he should've had. BJ v machida and Gomi are great performances and curiosities but its mostly the novelty of those fights, cuz neither of those guys was an elite world class fighter when bj met them.

Bundt Cake
Aug 16, 2003
;(

vainman posted:

Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. I also think fighting heavyweights is a better legacy then beating uno a bunch more times or whatever

A W over Pulver or Uno in those title fights and he'd have a lot better reputation. He was supposed to win them and he lost.

Lid
Feb 18, 2005

Rap terrorist, terrorise, tear it up
Brought gas and the matches to flare it up
Militant Michael might go psycho
On any ally or rival
Born Black, that's dead on arrival
My job is to fight for survival
In spite of these #AllLivesMatter-ass white folk


The only metric BJ or Shogun aren't living up to their promise is a misguided belief they should've been the GOAT in their divisions but got wrecked by Edgar and Jones for those titles. They're easy Hall of Famers.

Fat Twitter Man
Jan 24, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Lid posted:

The only metric BJ or Shogun aren't living up to their promise is a misguided belief they should've been the GOAT in their divisions but got wrecked by Edgar and Jones for those titles. They're easy Hall of Famers.

Like five guys and two women have ever completely dominated their division, so there's no shame in falling short of that. And it's impossible to be on top forever.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


Gay Horney posted:

fighting and being a beast ages you much faster than whatever the gently caress it is you're clowning around with

Yes, I am aware. But most fighters, even professional ones, have not had the absurd number of major surgeries and injuries Shogun has had. To put it in perspective, Jones and Gus are both older now than Shogun was when he fought Hendo the first time, and neither is a shambling wreck that's had half a dozen major surgeries. It's weird that I'm having to actually spell this out.


Fat Twitter Man posted:

Like five guys and two women have ever completely dominated their division, so there's no shame in falling short of that. And it's impossible to be on top forever.

Oh yeah, absolutely. And Jones smashes even alternate universe non-injured Shogun. But remember that there's a four year gap between Shogun's inauspicious UFC debut and his fight with Jones, and Shogun spent a huge amount of that sidelined with injuries.

vainman
Nov 2, 2012

I find your lack of faith... disturbing

Shogun was a hall of famer in like 06. Everything after that was gravy

vainman
Nov 2, 2012

I find your lack of faith... disturbing

I looked up Machida's record because I barely remember anything about that BJ fight and his first six fights are a real who's who of MMA

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014




Pillbug

vainman posted:

I looked up Machida's record because I barely remember anything about that BJ fight and his first six fights are a real who's who of MMA

Machida's KO of Franklin is loving sick as poo poo.

1st AD
Dec 3, 2004

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: sometimes passing just isn't an option.


vainman posted:

I looked up Machida's record because I barely remember anything about that BJ fight and his first six fights are a real who's who of MMA

I have a bad MMA opinions list, and topping them is I think BJ should've won that fight.

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Memento
Aug 25, 2009




Clapping Larry

vainman posted:

I looked up Machida's record because I barely remember anything about that BJ fight and his first six fights are a real who's who of MMA

Looking at his record led me to remember that Sokoudjou was a thing at one point in time, and now basically has a .500 record against people who don't have wikipedia pages.

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