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SuperKlaus posted:Warning: I am going into ~*my canon*~ here so you may want to scroll on. Hey for what it's worth I read all this and like it, as I've also always had issues with Actual Satan being at the gates for literal centuries while everyone else somehow just doesn't ever worry about this. It also adds rather interesting conflict to the Yasuki, who are very much not supposed to be dealing with the gaijin who they are charged with literally keeping out, but gosh that would be worth a lot of money, wouldn't it? And then the Tortoise step in. In fact, maybe that's how it plays out - the Yasuki are of course openly mercantile, and probably use this to try and eliminate any kind of public gaijin goods market, and go back and forth between waging bizarre economic shadow wars with the Tortoise (who's main thing is trading with gaijin), and allying with the Tortoise when those foreigners start to get unfriendly and now it's go time.
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Oct 12, 2017 10:09
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The big thing to understand about the Scorpion is that they are, in the end, still a noble house of landed elite. They'll dress like a peasant to get close to their (noble samurai) victim, or to blackmail their (noble samurai) victim, but they won't exactly mingle with the dirty poors, that's beneath them. Like, the Scorpion peasants are NOT well treated or happy. They're probably the worst to their peasants second only to the Lion. That's why the Scorpion have so many celebrations - to keep the riots at bay. As for the Tortoise, what most people in-setting know is that they are a minor house who's job is to maintain the capital city and house of the emperor, which legally makes them like, the Rokugani equivilant of second cousins to the emperor. Which in turn means giving members of the Tortoise poo poo - even if they absolutely deserve it - is a quick way to find yourself holding your own wakizashi at your own midsection. Of course, being neigh untouchable means the Tortoise get away with a lot. See, the Tortoise aren't VILLAINS like the Scorpion. They're just scumbags. They aren't creating vast complex networks of betrayal, they're just forging your clan symbol and selling it and spending all that money on rich foods and then bragging about their obesity. They aren't doing the Emperor's dirty work as the UNDERHAND, they're just kinda assholes. The catch is that their actual reason for existing is something the other Clans are very much not supposed to know about, because the emperor themselves isn't supposed to know about it, much less sign off on it, because the Tortoise's job is keeping track of the gaijin. They actually maintain secret trade with other countries, because it turns out the best way to keep other countries away is to make sure they never give a poo poo about your country to begin with, so the Tortoise bring Rokugani goods (but never the best stuff) and trade it for gaijin goods, which they then keep track of in Rokugan to make sure no samurai ever get too interested and maybe think about contacting said gaijin. And yes, EVERY emperor knows and signs off on it, which again, is very explicitly not a thing most of the Great Clans would be cool with, so it's all gotta stay hush hush. So nobody is allowed to touch the Tortoise, in fear that their secret would come out. So why aren't the Tortoise a big deal? Well, think about the Scorpion. They're sexy and dramatic. They have bloodline curses and cursed swords of ambition and secret societies and all that poo poo. The Scorpion are kinda lousy at their job, but they're great at making drama. But the Tortoise? They're explicitly bland and forgettable (and in fact will sometimes intentionally ugly themselves up) because they don't want to be noticed. They happily and easily mingle with commoners, because they're dealing and trading with commoners. They don't really have problems with arrogance and ambition because, quite frankly, life for the Tortoise is easy street, and they see no reason to change this fantastically good thing they got going on. They're also perfectly servicable ambassadors and diplomats, and happily help out the other minor clans in court, because, again, they don't give a poo poo about the Great Clans. A Fox and a Lion are gonna have problems because the Lion is gonna treat the Fox like trash and the Fox has to suck it up - a Lion tries that with a Tortoise, and suddenly . So they gotta play equals with this ugly motherfucker who's practically got a gold tooth and you know nothing about them is legit. The Scorpion was founded by a god who was way too dramatic for his own good; the Tortoise was founded by an anglophile nerd and his Portuguese boyfriend. Also, as the previous storyline got more wrought and bizarre, they lost their niche. "I deal with gaijin poo poo" doesn't work when the entire empire invades another country. And as the Mantis grew in popularity (don't get me wrong, I love the Mantis) they became more and more connected to "deals with outsiders" which, well, WAS the Tortoise's whole thing.
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Oct 12, 2017 22:34
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Shugenja have always done the opposite of suffering because in-setting they're supposed to be largely ceremonial priests and such, but mechanically they're also straight up D&D wizards most of the time.SuperKlaus posted:I always thought Scorpion peasants were genuinely well-treated, because as the keepers of the Black Scrolls* the Scorpion are hyper-interested in keeping maho cults away, and they figured out that happy peasants don't turn to blood rituals so often. Or did I accidentally head-canon that? Maybe I made up the reason why but I swear I read somewhere that Scorpion peasants have it good, all considered. Naw, or at least not going by L5R4's Emerald Empire and Great Clans; the Scorpion are way more cynical. Their general outlook is "Well, we do OUR job without complaint, so you drat well better do YOUR job without complaint" but, well, that doesn't actually fly, so in reality, they mostly just allow for non-stop parties. Essentially, when your kid is being born, BOTH parents are free from work for a few days so they can properly celebrate - and this custom isn't just for samurai either, so in particularly large villages, there's celebrations constantly. On top of that, peasants are allowed slash lightly encouraged to wear masks themselves if they're the bride or groom at a wedding, which is half to allow for a fun celebration, and also half to get a little more of that brand loyalty out there. So the Scorpion tactic is, well, bread and circuses. They treat their peasants like dogshit, but also let them party and celebrate a bunch so they're less likely to riot. In comparison: Crab mostly just ignore their peasants, which, all things considered, is kinda what the peasants want. You do your job, we do ours. That said, no group of peasants is as thoroughly protected from corruption and blood magic. Crab peasants are the only ones allowed to straight up arm themselves, though they have good reason for it. Crab generally look down on overly making GBS threads on peasants and will absolutely see you as a dishonorable coward for doing so. Crane likewise mostly just ignore their peasants. Life is probably still real lovely for them, because the actual caste system of Japan was utterly horrifying in it's cruelty and oppression, but it's generically lovely. Crane will probably think you're being crass for mistreating a peasant, but that's kinda it. Dragon try to treat their peasants well, it's just that they...don't have much to actually help them with. Clan Dragon is poor, and so are their peasants. Dragon absolutely look down on overly making GBS threads on peasants. Lion treat their peasants like dogshit because, again, the actual caste system of Japan was utterly horrifying in it's cruelty and oppression, and, well, Lion expect people to do what their told, without actually paying any attention to what the lives of the peasantry are. Lion are, above all else, THE status quo. They have a big enough army to smash any potential peasant riot, and, uh, do so. Lion expect you to overly poo poo on peasants. Mantis treat their peasants so goddamn nicely that villages will straight up celebrate if it looks like the Mantis is going to expand and take over their territory. They're still peasants in a brutal caste system that denies their humanity, but the Mantis at least try to make life better for them. Mantis might straight up fight your rear end for trying to poo poo on peasants, and any Mantis just allowing mistreatment to happen is probably seen as a weirdo and rear end in a top hat by the rest of his Mantis peers. The Phoenix are similar to the Dragon. They treat their peasants decently, though of course they're still mired in a horrible hellish existence for no reason, and even actually try to educate them. Unfortunately, much like the Dragon, the Phoenix aren't exactly wealthy, and while their peasants aren't starving, they can expect their lives to be just as miserable at the end as it was at the beginning. Phoenix will probably try to stop you from making GBS threads on peasants, though the degree at which they try might not be that much. The Unicorn are similar to the Mantis, though a touch or two not as much. They are openly kind to their peasants and try to help them through hard times and treat them far better then most other clans. Funny enough, while Mantis peasants still have a nicer life, Unicorn are way more serious about the "protection" part. Unicorn will straight up fight your rear end for trying to poo poo on peasants, and might even go out looking for people doing so JUST so they can gently caress them up.
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Oct 13, 2017 06:30
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Minor clans kinda can't be as distant and arrogant as the great clans are. Half the time, they have to work side by side with their own peasants. That's the thing with the Mantis - they aren't really samurai, they're sailors. Most great clans have big land armies, where they keep the peasant part of the army and the noble side of the army separated. That's not really so much an option on a boat! So of course, working side by side with them builds familiarity, which increases empathy. Of course, on top of that, most Minor Clans have their origins in peasants who did Real Good once, so it's a bit hard to put on airs when you know ol' great grandpa was out in the fields himself, and it's likewise hard to consider the peasants a group of ignorable half-human nobodies when you yourself are living proof they can drat well be more then that.
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Oct 13, 2017 07:16
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Fun thing I just noticed - some classes literally can't buy the things on their XP lists! I noticed it specifically with Shinjo Outrider; a number of kata and shuji on their XP lists are a level higher then they can actually purchase. I haven't checked other schools yet, but it's probable they've got it too.
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Oct 14, 2017 12:29
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Two things I've noticed. 1) Range ain't poo poo. It is decidedly easy to reach your target even if you're melee, which only lowers the value of the already mediocre Iaijutsu kata. 2) The static difficulties work and stances are real weird because of, well, how static they are. Let's look at them, and also note the kata they have access to. Early on, Fire and Air stances reign supreme. At Ring 3, skill 1, which is where you start out of chargen, you have ~70% chance to hit TN2. That means fire stance and air stance are huge; air stance absolutely butchers that, and Fire stance, well, does the opposite, albeit at risk. Earth stance suffers simply because you really don't have enough dice to be able to rely on opportunity. Water is kinda useful without being dominating, which is kinda where it sits, well, forever. By and large your kata here is Striking as ______; Iaijutsu ain't poo poo, Soaring Slice isn't terrible but is utility not workhorse, Warriors Resolve, well, we'll get to Void. But there's a disparity there too; Striking as Air is obscene at this level, making you an absolutely stunning evasion tank, whereas Striking as Fire is near pointless as, again, opportunity doesn't come cheap, and spending it on maybe critting next round is poor usage. Earth is great in spite of it's stance, and Water, well, continues to be useful without being dominating, which is gonna be a thing for Water. That falls apart almost immediately. Even before rank 2, when you have even just skill 3 instead of skill 1, that changes dramatically. Now your chance to hit is more then 90%. Extra hits matter a lot, too, because they're added to your damage. Air gets weaker - TN3, while still a setback, isn't nearly as much of one. Striking as Air remains incredibly useful, mind you, as a lack of kept die can make you literally unhittable (once), though you are at this point very directly trading offense for temporary defense. Earth's use skyrockets, because now, well, there IS enough opportunity potential to make it more reliable, and now being immune to others spending opportunity against you is way more valuable. Once you look at kata, the general fire supremacy starts to look even worse, because Air don't get jack poo poo, Earth and Water get a bunch of status effects, and Fire shrugs and just auto-crits you with what is probably one of the best katas in the game, Heart Piercing Strike. "Cirno what about Void?" It's terrible right until it's not. Which means it's mostly ignorable, save specific situations, at which point it becomes super valuable. It's kata reflects this. Do not overly pour your XP into Void, but don't ignore it either. So, my general thoughts: Right now, offense will generally beat defense, and there's no offense like Fire offense. Early on Air is strong, but it loses ground fast. Earth is tank and status effects, which fits really well I feel; you don't smash them down with one blow, you chip away and weaken them while rendering yourself unhurtable. Water is never amazing and never terrible; a good middle. Incidentally, the fact that offense scales so much faster then defense help ensure that Akodo are horrifying death machines that kill with a thought. Also, it's worth mentioning that crits aren't everything outside of Heart Piercing Strike. Most bushi will probably be raising their Fitness as they go, because why on earth wouldn't you? Surprisingly very little raises your deadliness/threshold; the highest you get starting off is your DAISHO SAMURAI BLADES, which have Deadliness 7 when two handed. As a result, it's going to be very rare for your crits to do serious damage, again outside of Heart Piercing strike which allows a Lion to insta-gib you. And of course, there are disadvantages to using a katana, at least against enemies with, well, armor. In short, for most characters, you're probably better off using that opportunity on kata rather then crits, and focusing on using your wargear weapons to incapacitate enemies. The counter to this is Kakita, who can raise their weapon deadliness automatically as part of their school, and start off with the kata that...is terrible to use while trying to crit. loving god dammit Kakita, be good at something. EDIT: this doesn't 100% represent your chances to explode your dice either, which, naturally, only makes offense better. ProfessorCirno fucked around with this message at 09:32 on Oct 18, 2017 |
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Oct 18, 2017 09:26
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Striking as Air scales to your opportunity, yeah, but something I noticed while looking at the die real early on is that it is substantially rare to get both a success and an opportunity - it only appears on the skill die, and it only appears once. Given how the roll + keep works, outside of Fire stance and it's ridiculous offense, that means taking opportunity can be a legit cost; if your enemy's TN is 3, and you have Ring 3, you literally cannot spend opportunity. Thus my statement that, later on, Striking as Air stays very useful for tanking, but starts to sap away at your offense, as you have to give up more and more hits (which can be used for extra damage) in exchange for opportunity to keep your defenses up. I despise iaijutsu for it does close to nothing. You move two free movement bands at the start of your turn, and can add a third if you go to water stance. If they're still farther then that, you can always Charge. On top of that, iaijutsu's opportunity spending is hilarious, because it already just costs 1 opportunity to sheath your weapon. Iaijutsu actually makes that more expensive. And of course, you're adding +1 to your damage, but likewise losing that +2 to your deadliness, so your crits - the things Kakita are suposed to care about - are actually weaker. And honestly, I like the Razor Sharp rules. It makes sure all bushi have more then one weapon and that those weapons get use. In ceremonial situations, of course, katana is best, because it's all you can really bring with you. But in an actual pitched battle, you've got the naginata as a great range 2 weapon, you've got the Crab weapons which are great at cracking armor, the zanbato is a fantastic all around workhorse weapon (and will probably be the favorite of many an Akodo Bushi) and of course there's the yumi and crossbow (at least for now when there's no reload rules) for range. One last thing I will note is that, funny enough, right now, Lion reign supreme not only in skirmishes, but in duels. The best duelist school in the game right now is in fact the Ikoma bard due to their ability to manipulate strife, potentially dumping it all on you suddenly, allowing for an immediate finishing blow. And finishing blows are real weird too, because they either end the duel through immediate death or unconsciousness, or they...don't effect the duel at all, because, outside of the weird wooden sword duel, all duels end when you otherwise give them too many wounds.
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Oct 18, 2017 20:59
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...I mean, that covers like 90% of what I've brought up here, so good to know FFG is kinda on the same page, hahahaha. As for Razor Edge not being consistent, the weapons list seems more alpha then beta, with a lot missing. While it's not applied best, I honestly do like the general rule existing and hope they do cool stuff with it. Also it's not surprising that people are whinging about strife and outbursts, but they can go gently caress themselves; I adore it, and I think it fits beautifully. Zarick posted:Note that Fire Stance only offers bonus successes if you've already succeeded. It's exactly as hard to beat TN 3 in Air and Fire stances, the difference is that Fire can likely do so with some margins of success, rather than just barely scraping by. I actually hadn't noticed that, and that tapers down Fire's strength significantly. It's still real good, and still the best pure offense stance, but it's no longer insane. Which is good!
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Oct 19, 2017 04:14
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I haven't looked at invocations and will probably never look at invocations. Shugenja have always bored me; too much wizard, not enough actual clergy social class (or rather, close to no clergy social class, usually). I also, if I'm honest, completely expect them to be super overpowered in comparison. Not because that's a GOOD thing, but because this hobby is what it is, and the wizards will always be strongest, depressingly enough.
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Oct 19, 2017 06:50
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I don't know, having a person blessed with the ability to command the very fabric of creation balanced with guy who does sword good seems wrong. Two things. 1) The guy with the sword is literally part divine, and their swordplay is literally created by the gods. 2) That last bit is the problem. Shugenja aren't supposed to be wizards. They are not blessed with the ability to command the very fabric of creation. Shugenja are supposed to be a priest social class. They aren't wizards, they're religious leaders. So yeah, it IS very easy to forget that shugenja are supposed to be dedicated pacifists, for the same reason it's easy to forget that shugenja are supposed to be religious leaders, for the same reason it's easy to forget that shugenja aren't supposed to be able to just casually command the kami. It's easy to forget it because it was never put in the game. In any edition.
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Oct 19, 2017 21:28
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Bakeneko posted:It’s only a few specific groups of shugenja, such as the Asahina, that are supposed to be pacifists. Otherwise there wouldn’t be so many combat-focused spells. The Kuni especially would laugh at the idea of not using their power to smite the monsters of the shadowlands. The combat spells are the problem. They are actually for reals all supposed to be pacifists - it's just that shadowlands monsters don't count as "people." The thing with the Asahina is that they culturally aren't even supposed to fight in self defense, which is what the other shugenja would do. But of course, instead, shugenja have a TOOOOON of combat spells. Traveller posted:Down this road lie KAMI GENES, Cirno. I'm just saying, the ronin / great clan divide would be more sensical of ronin were still good swordsmen, and great clan bushi literally did impossible poo poo, rather then great clan samurai being vaguely proficient at weapons, and ronin not even being that. Also hi.
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Oct 19, 2017 21:58
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I am fine with anime as hell wuxia flipping out, and I am fine with grounded and more sensical, but the game needs to choose which it is and set all archtypes around that. Bushi being grounded while everyone else is flying and flipping over trees is kinda bullshit.
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Oct 20, 2017 04:31
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On the note of spell balance, it IS slightly worth noting that the most powerful spell in L5R 4th edition was in fact a level one spell, it's just one that completely hosed the general action economy and simultaniously served as a huge boost to bushi damage. That's right. It's the AoE prone. It's always the level 1 AoE prone, in every game.
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Oct 20, 2017 21:59
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Aramoro posted:I think its situational, you could argue the spell that esrased someone from ever existing was more powerful, but then hiw would you know it had ever been cast? Yeah but that spell requires way more time and effort. You can just poo poo out level 1 AoE prones, which remove your enemy's ability to attack that turn (at least until attacking as a simple is common, which is mid-game at best), and ALSO gives a sizable nerf to their defenses, allowing your bushi to call more raises on their attacks. Erasing a dude from existance is a real cool way to finish a boss, but Tempest of Air will get you to the boss. That was L5R4 in a nutshell really, at least for combat. Tempest of Air, Fires of Purity, Path to Inner Peace, and Jade Strike. Legit all you need in combat, a level 1 spell in each ring. Oh sure, later on you might dabble with the more explosive or flashy spells, but those four will get you though a lot. A heal, a buff, an AoE control, and a nuke against Tainted, all level 1 so you can pound those out immediately rather then spend several rounds trying to sweeten the deal with the kami. "Cirno why not NUKE the enemy with lightning or-" Your bushi does damage better. And also, YOU do it better, with fleshcutter arrows, because archery was incredible in L5R4.
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Oct 21, 2017 03:15
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The main thing chargen suffers from is that it'd be nice if you could manipulate skills a little more to better differentiate yourself between your peers. It's a bit of a minor quibble, but hey, it's there. All in all there's a decent number of ways to manipulate your starting rings, which is good, though since certain schools naturally gravitate towards certain rings, they get a bit samey. The real crime remains the god awful XP table system.
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Oct 26, 2017 11:51
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Dick Burglar posted:Scorpion dissidents liking labor is especially odd. Of any samurai, I feel like a scorpion would be most likely to engage in peasant labor (except maybe a dragon), in order to blend in with peasants when they're doing the ninja thing. They probably won't be happy about it, but if you have no idea what you're doing you'll kinda stand out, which defeats the purpose. I've not read the new rules update yet but hear me out: I mean, yes. They will disguise themselves as peasants. But read it again - pretending to do work. I mentioned it before, but you gotta understand - the Scorpion, much as they try to pretend otherwise, are still very much land owning nobility with a whole lot of privileges, and they like it that way. They'll pretend to be a peasant in order to kill another member of their land owning noble caste, but that's it - they aren't going to actually spend time with the poors. Remember: Scorpion are real big on duty, which means they're also real big on the caste system. Doing actual labor is the duty of the peasantry, and they should be happy to have that duty in the first place, etc, etc. People always paint the Crane as the big time decadent nobles, but I've always felt that matches the Scorpion far, far better. The Crane spend their free time with poetry and art and mastering the "tasteful" affair; the Scorpion spend their free time with lurid blackmail and poisoned rice wine.
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Oct 26, 2017 21:23
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I know literally nothing about how the card game is played, but intentionally taking a weaker choice and being looked down on only to reveal that your choice was actually super good and powerful in ways others didn't notice is a pretty Scorpion thing to do.
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Nov 5, 2017 22:47
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I fell off the RPG beta pretty early on due to lack of group to test it with, and just...General poo poo. Did they ever add the other missing schools and change those god awful XP tables?
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May 2, 2018 04:56
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Mors Rattus posted:I love Chagatai a lot. He owns and I'm gonna need to get the novella for him. I deeply appreciate that they seem to be doing the polar opposite with her. Where before her random bullshit got deus ex machina'd into her being a perfect genius without flaw, she is now trying to Evil Mastermind things and is loving it up as hard as possible.
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Apr 4, 2019 06:08
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PaybackJack posted:I don't know that I would actually say she's loving things up completely. IMO it's better for the Scorpion to have control and influence without actually appearing to have control and influence. ...She pretty much set it up so it looks like her husband and entire clan are responsible for the murder of the Emperor. That's uh, a pretty dire move.
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Apr 4, 2019 13:26
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Dick Burglar posted:I made a swordmonk and it is cool. Can't wait for the game to actually start up so I can katana people with kihos. I'm both curious and worried - combining kihos and katas seems like it could get real extreme real fast, and throwing Fire Fist on a katana completely obsoletes the already iffy Kakita Duelist. On the other hand, finally a class that can just scream "RULES OF NATURE" and get to it.
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Apr 27, 2019 05:15
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...It does make for sort of a "bug" in dueling where the best way to duel is to go heavy Earth stance and just avoid stress at all costs, which is...well, I'm sure someone will pipe in and say it "makes sense," but gently caress that, it's anti-dramatic and anti-thematic.
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Jun 1, 2019 05:46
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1994 Toyota Celica posted:playing a Mirumoto Two Heavens bushi, i found the best move in a duel was to hurl one of my bokken right at the crane duelists's pretty face Kakita Duelist are probably the big losers of this edition. They're...not very good at much. They're not even that great at dueling. Dragon on the other and reigns supreme.
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Jun 1, 2019 12:59
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I mean, the theme of New L5R is "human beings can't stop letting their emotions and feelings take them into the worst decision they could make, every time, and because they're landed nobility, their gently caress ups ripple across the entire empire, and their system of conduct is strict to the point of only making all of this worse." Which is the best theme the game could have, to be honest. I doubt Daisetsu did this because of the taint, he did it because the person he's probably spent years secretly hating - who just killed his dad - just showed a massive weakness for him to strike back at. It's not about long term thinking. It's about being a teenager who's always had to be polite, and finally having a chance to scream "gently caress you!" at someone you despise.
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Sep 4, 2019 20:58
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Terratina posted:It's not really taint guys, just Fu Leng nudging the heirs a little to make the empire fall. So, with the bit about the palace's wards and also the mention of her "Yogo blood," I actually wonder how much of this will play a role, how much of this is securely in the "we'll see how tournaments go and we're setting stuff up just in case," and how much is going to exist for ad-hoc explanations. They've done a great job at making it actually pretty questionable how much supernatural stuff is going on, and how much of it is just real life bullshit with the supernatural being a possible reason, which, again, is a very good thing that I like a lot. The drama is centered securely on the extremely human things happening.
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Sep 5, 2019 04:00
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The big thing to remember (or the big PROBLEM with dueling) is that Earth immediately shuts down attempts to crit you through advantage. This fucks up *a lot* of the dueling rules.
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Oct 26, 2019 07:47
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sexpig by night posted:they do a weird super staggered thing to 'fight piracy' (as if the pdfs aren't instantly stolen anyway) so it'll be like, what, a month or two? To be fair, of all the ways to fight piracy, this is probably the most effective of a largely effective bunch? Just accept that pdfs will be stolen instantly and give a staggered release to try and push people into getting the physical copy instead. Lord_Hambrose posted:I just hope the Lion/warfare book that I assumed would exist gets to be something they produce before the end. Much as I would love it, it seems unlikely. I'm not sure it would've even been in pre-production by the time of the announcements. And, for whatever it's worth, there's something fitting and kinda nice about the last book of the system being about exploring what happens after death.
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Feb 25, 2020 18:02
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