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X-O
Apr 28, 2002

Long Live The King!



This thread is for the growing conversation regarding the outside world of comics. This thread is not about the content of comics. If you have a problem with a storyline this is not the thread for you. Please find the discussion thread that suits your need for that.

This is where we get into the deeper issues of comics that are bigger than what's on the page.

Gross Assholes on Twitter? This is your thread.

Gross Assholes employed by companies? This is your thread.

Gross business practices that make it hard to justify your hobby? This is your thread.

These are the rules of thread. It's pretty simple.

1. Don't be an rear end in a top hat. This is going to be he toughest for all of us.

2. Make substantive posts. No one liners. No one word replies.

3. You can disagree all you want but don't make it personal. Keep on the subject and not each other. Remember just because someone doesn't see a situation the same as you it doesn't give you the right to attack them personally.

4. Seriously, don't be an rear end in a top hat. I know it's gonna be tough.

We all want to want enjoy our funny books and sometimes it's hard. Let's at least be civil when we talk about why.

X-O fucked around with this message at Oct 6, 2017 around 22:58

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Lurdiak
Feb 25, 2006

I do not like to see you post.


Marvel's recent move to precipitate the dystopian nightmare world portrayed in Shadowrun is highly unwelcome. I wonder if any of the writers or artists currently employed are going to say anything about it. Or people who used to work for Marvel but probably won't again, for that matter.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016



It's baffling to me that Marvel would go for this, while one of their biggest characters right now is a guy whose motivated by trying to make up for his shady past as a weapon's dealer.

Lurdiak
Feb 25, 2006

I do not like to see you post.


The overwhelming majority of Marvel's creators have been progressives of all stripes and they have several dozen villains who are thinly veiled pastiches of real life weapons manufacturers and other gross capitalist profiteers who ruin the world. It's very off-brand, to say the least.

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

No harm shall come to this fair maiden whilst this bougie knight still draws carefully cultivated, artisan breath!


Like already said by someone else in the main thread the real surprise for me is how proud they were of it. Like, the big NYCC announcement and all being met with overwhelming 'we don't like this' in a lot of circles speaks to a major disconnect between marketing and fans.

Lurdiak
Feb 25, 2006

I do not like to see you post.


Disney's money guys have no idea what the fans want, and that's getting increasingly obvious.

https://twitter.com/gerryconway/sta...371266424246272

Teenage Fansub
Jan 28, 2006



For context, this is about Marvel teaming up with a defense contractor to promote it in an all-ages comic, recruitment ads, etc.
https://twitter.com/Marvel/status/916317209017937920
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman

Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at Oct 6, 2017 around 23:17

achillesforever6
Apr 23, 2012

#RXTREVOLUTIONFOREVER6


Roth posted:

It's baffling to me that Marvel would go for this, while one of their biggest characters right now is a guy whose motivated by trying to make up for his shady past as a weapon's dealer.
I'm going to go with my pet theory of Ike Perlmutter making a deal with Northrop Grumman because he is an awful human being

Wanderer
Nov 5, 2006

our every move is the new tradition


achillesforever6 posted:

I'm going to go with my pet theory of Ike Perlmutter making a deal with Northrop Grumman because he is an awful human being

I'm not going to lie, the first thing I thought was that Perlmutter probably had something to do with it.

The last time I looked into the situation, half the problem at Marvel was that its offices are so understaffed that a lot of things are slipping through the cracks, and most of it was due to Perlmutter's notorious reluctance to spend money if he thinks he can avoid it somehow.

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

No harm shall come to this fair maiden whilst this bougie knight still draws carefully cultivated, artisan breath!


Lurdiak posted:

Disney's money guys have no idea what the fans want, and that's getting increasingly obvious.

https://twitter.com/gerryconway/sta...371266424246272

Ha! I didn't hear they (very rightly) cancelled Punisher's sneak peek before this. Did they put Goofus and Gallant in charge?

"Ok guys something horrible involving guns happened like a couple days ago, let's not make a big hype for our 'horrible guy with guns does gun to people he doesn't like' show, may disappoint some fans but I think that's the tasteful thing to do"

"Also let's REALLY hype our war profiteer collab, like REALLY show how woke and cool the guys bombing Yemen are."

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 27 days!


Roth posted:

It's baffling to me that Marvel would go for this, while one of their biggest characters right now is a guy whose motivated by trying to make up for his shady past as a weapon's dealer.

The terrible truth is that it's not actually baffling at all. This is perfectly in line with what Iron Man represents. Just think about how the movies depict Stark "trying to make up for his shady past as a weapon's dealer" by having him fly to Afghanistan to kill people., This is nothing new or exceptional, we're simply seeing what was there all along.

This image:


Is completely true. Northrop Grumman is the reality of the Tony Stark fantasy.

Archyduke
Jul 18, 2006

Je suis la jeune fille.


I'm a little unclear on whether this will be a comic that will be on sale at comic stores (unlikely?) a freebie at direct-market places, something they hand out at job fairs and such, or, like, one of those advert inserts they run sometimes.

I'm disgusted by this but I have to cop that I was totally unaware that, as E&C pointed out, Marvel has apparently been doing these kinds of promo comics for the US military for years. Which I totally buy-- I'm sure they do all kind of giveaways and cheapo vanity projects like this all the time. I have no idea why this is getting such a big PR push though. What the hell did they think would happen?

Edge & Christian
May 20, 2001

Earth-1145 is truly the best!
A world of singing, magic frogs,
high adventure, no shitposters


I am not saying this to normalize the Northrop Grumman thing (which I flew off the handle poorly informed about in the main thread, I did not understand the actual nature of their business) but in terms of "why would they proudly announce this at a con", it's probably part of the contract. Previous cons are riddled with (far more benign examples of) this sort of "corporate synergy". Panels co-sponsored by LG or Siemens and Harley Davidson or KFC, and a few years back an enormous banner touting a Sears Craftsman/Justice League team-up where a white dude with Snap-On Tool Technology was placed front and center in the New 52 Justice League group shot while Cyborg was pushed back to a little head poking up over Green Lantern's shoulder towered over the DC comics booth.

This was all likely negotiated by people almost completely divorced from the day to day production of the comics books. If you look at Marvel's Twitter page (where they tweeted out about this 'partnership') bizarrely this industrial comic is almost the only tweet about a comic book on the entire timeline.

In terms of tweets sent out today, the entire TL is:
1) Iron Fist TV show
2) New Hasbro Toys
3) Marvel is doing a comic with the band Starset!
4) Contest of Champions mobile game
5) Lego Marvel 2 Video Game
6) Marvel is doing a custom comic with Northrop Grumman
7) A hashtag contest
8) Mighty Muggs
9) Thor Ragnarok
10) Funko Pops
11) More Funko Pops
12) Joe Quesada and Stan Lee in Conversation
13) Cosplayers
14) The Gifted TV Show
15) Thor Ragnarok
16) A TV & Games panel
17) Spider-Man Homecoming
18) Cloak & Dagger TV show
19) Follow Marvel Twitter!
20) Contest of Champions mobile game
21) An artist does a quickdraw
22) Cosplayers
23) Marvel vs. Capcom
24) Marvel Live Stage Show
25) Lego Marvel sets
26) Follow Marvel Twitter
27) Runaways TV show
28) Joe Quesada panel

This may seem superfluous and isn't directly related to the NG business, but for this thread in general, the general inconsequential nature of the comics branch of Marvel/DC as corporate entities is kind of important. For good and ill, it informs a lot of these discussions. Clearly people are making decisions way above the level of the comics offices. Being so low on the radar allows for toxic staffers to fly under the radar (though it took forever to get rid of people in higher profile positions in higher profile corporations too), but it also allows for more experimental/niche characters and concepts to survive longer since the profile is low. I'd love for niche stuff to last longer and shitbirds to get ejected quicker, but so long as the comics department isn't actively loving up the film/television/game/merchandising machine, the comics industry part of things is often left alone.

Archyduke posted:

I'm a little unclear on whether this will be a comic that will be on sale at comic stores (unlikely?) a freebie at direct-market places, something they hand out at job fairs and such, or, like, one of those advert inserts they run sometimes.
The panel's not until tomorrow, but generally when they do these "custom comics" (which are an entirely freestanding department last I checked), they're produced to be given to the licensor to handle as they see fit. Sometimes they end up getting handed out at conventions -- the KFC and Craftsman ones from DC were handed out at cons as well as serving as a freebie at their respective retail locations, and I have like a Gilette Razor/Avengers giveaway I assume I was handed at a convention kicking around somewhere. Going back even further, comics like this were packed into meals at McDonald's, Pizza Hut, etc. or redeemable for X number of UPCs from Charleston Chew or M&Ms or Kellogg's cereal or Kraft Mac & Cheese or whatever. Given the nature of Northrop Grumman's business, I assume these are going to sit next to keychains and pens at college job fairs, or given to employee's kids at the company picnic.

quote:

I'm disgusted by this but I have to cop that I was totally unaware that, as E&C pointed out, Marvel has apparently been doing these kinds of promo comics for the US military for years. Which I totally buy-- I'm sure they do all kind of giveaways and cheapo vanity projects like this all the time. I have no idea why this is getting such a big PR push though. What the hell did they think would happen?
So far the PR push has been a panel (which may be a huge panel, I don't know, it's not until tomorrow) and a single Tweet, which is commensurate to a lot of other industrial comics deals.

Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at Oct 6, 2017 around 23:50

Jiro
Jan 12, 2004



Teenage Fansub posted:

For context, this is about Marvel teaming up with a defense contractor to promote it in an all-ages comic, recruitment ads, etc.
https://twitter.com/Marvel/status/916317209017937920
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman



Kojima was always right. The man is a prophet who makes his prophecies interactive. We are slowly coming to the beginning of MGS IV.

Vakal
May 11, 2008



If have no fear of getting my limbs blown off since comics have taught me that prosthetics are superior in every way.

Blade Runner
Aug 14, 2015



To be fair, Grumman is primarily an Aerospace and Military Aviation company, not exactly Colt. Defense contractors are pretty much necessary for the country as it currently stands to keep moving with regards to militarization, and demonizing them so heavily seems a little weird to me; I mean, after a certain point, do you just not want the military to have planes? Marvel has been doing the "military good" thing for a while, considering Cap and all other sorts of heroes, and they're inevitably going to be all about glorifying someone punching someone else in the dick while in a tight spandex costume.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



David Heinrich posted:

To be fair, Grumman is primarily an Aerospace and Military Aviation company, not exactly Colt. Defense contractors are pretty much necessary for the country as it currently stands to keep moving with regards to militarization, and demonizing them so heavily seems a little weird to me; I mean, after a certain point, do you just not want the military to have planes?

Yes

Blade Runner
Aug 14, 2015



Well, too bad, I guess, Navy and Air Force need Wingnuts.. I've always sort of figured that Marvel and Disney in general were on the progressive train until the exact moment it lost them a cent of money, at which point they would hop right the gently caress off. If they see the ad deal with this corporation as being more likely to recoup cash than the comic sales they'll lose from it, it's pretty understandable to me why they'd go for it.

X-O
Apr 28, 2002

Long Live The King!




quote:

2. Make substantive posts. No one liners. No one word replies.

Try again. I realize you're answering a question he asked, but give a bit more detail. This thread is for discussion. If you don't want to discuss then don't participate.

Lightning Lord
Feb 21, 2013

$200 a day, plus expenses



This Grumman marketing really feels like "How do you do, fellow kids?" poo poo. Is some 24 year old fresh from MIT with an electrical engineering degree going to be open to getting a job there because the Avengers said they were cool? I realize that isn't the point, but it just feels like a waste of time on their end. I guess it's more about PR and attitude shifting

David Heinrich posted:

Well, too bad, I guess, Navy and Air Force need Wingnuts.. I've always sort of figured that Marvel and Disney in general were on the progressive train until the exact moment it lost them a cent of money, at which point they would hop right the gently caress off. If they see the ad deal with this corporation as being more likely to recoup cash than the comic sales they'll lose from it, it's pretty understandable to me why they'd go for it.

To be fair it's not like the editorial staff sat down and said "We're losing money from being #WokeAsFuck, we'd better reach out to a military contractor and offer to make them a comic." Most likely Grumman approached Disney or Perlmutter himself, and they made the deal. It's unrelated to anything but that.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



X-O posted:

Try again. I realize you're answering a question he asked, but give a bit more detail. This thread is for discussion. If you don't want to discuss then don't participate.

Ok

Viridiant
Nov 7, 2009

I'm here


I don't think a lot of people -want- the country to keep moving on its current course with regards to militarization. I know I don't. I mean as far as that goes we're already pretty drat far down the rabbit hole but any further glorification sure isn't making things any better.

X-O
Apr 28, 2002

Long Live The King!




Cool.

I'll consider this you declining to participate further. So don't.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



X-O posted:

Cool.

I'll consider this you declining to participate further. So don't.

👍

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


David Heinrich posted:

To be fair, Grumman is primarily an Aerospace and Military Aviation company, not exactly Colt. Defense contractors are pretty much necessary for the country as it currently stands to keep moving with regards to militarization, and demonizing them so heavily seems a little weird to me; I mean, after a certain point, do you just not want the military to have planes? Marvel has been doing the "military good" thing for a while, considering Cap and all other sorts of heroes, and they're inevitably going to be all about glorifying someone punching someone else in the dick while in a tight spandex costume.

I was thinking this way too until someone pointed out:

ImpAtom posted:

Vinnell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnell) is a direct subsidiary of them.

Now, Vinnell does seem (after my maybe 30 seconds of research) to be less "we shoot dudes" PMC and more "we teach you how to use the expensive killing machines our parent company sold you" PMC, but I can't really blame anyone for getting irritated at Marvel for hooking up with the dudes who teach the Saudi military how to blow poo poo up and who got the contract to train the New Iraqi Army.

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

No harm shall come to this fair maiden whilst this bougie knight still draws carefully cultivated, artisan breath!


aside from them owning Vinnell that's actively training death squads in Iraq and Saudi Arabia Grumman isn't exactly peacefully making planes and telescopes. They're constantly pushing bomber tech and drones and poo poo that we're selling to places like Saudi Arabia to go level towns in Yemen. They're super actively profiting off war, they're not just nice guys giving us pretty planes and hoping they never get used.

Like, yea Cap is all 'military good' but you never see him doing ads for gun makers. That's kinda the difference.

OnimaruXLR
Sep 15, 2007
Lurklurklurklurklurk

I've seen a few of those Marvel military comics (they were given out for free) and to be honest they seemed just like breezy little bits of "YOU GUYS ARE THE REAL HEROES" fluff. Granted I haven't read all of them, and maybe some are a bit more "SEE YOUR LOCAL RECRUITER TODAY" than others, but the ones I read seemed pretty inoffensive

This, comparatively, is a bit more dubious because there's not even a pretense of it being anything other than one company paying for a nice promotional reacharound from another. And to top it off, it's not just any old company.

Blade Runner
Aug 14, 2015



The way that the military works in this country can be a little uncomfortable, at times, but that's sort of the actual way of it, in the end. For why Marvel wants this, like I said, Grumman probably just dumped a bunch of money on them. It's very possible they want to do some recruiting comics to grab some engineering bodies, whether that would actually work or not, and Marvel is still a company; I never really expected they would, as a company, turn down dosh just because it wasn't progressive. I don't think anyone sat down in an office and said "Progressiveness bad, get me on the line with a defense contractor" they probably just got approached by someone from a company that has a massive amount of government money to dump on advertising and immediately chucked all thoughts of morals out the window because of a metaphorical bag with a dollar sign on it.

Marvel has always been on the side of the military being primarily good and heroes, and I think they were just hoping people would see this as an extension of that, but it fell flat.

Teenage Fansub
Jan 28, 2006



https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/1...-comic-website/
Marvel's pulled the comic from their site and a sweepstakes competition page that went with it.
No word on anything happening to their show floor plans yet. That was quick.

Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at Oct 7, 2017 around 05:01

site
Apr 6, 2007

I want you to know that everything I did, I did for my waifu.


https://twitter.com/RosieMarx/status/916524490368212993

David Heinrich posted:

To be fair, Grumman is primarily an Aerospace and Military Aviation company, not exactly Colt. Defense contractors are pretty much necessary for the country as it currently stands to keep moving with regards to militarization, and demonizing them so heavily seems a little weird to me; I mean, after a certain point, do you just not want the military to have planes?

Tbh im not sure why we need to keep throwing trillions of dollars towards new planes when we havent had a war where similar jets have been used on the opposing side in real sorties since like what Vietnam? And the next time we fight countries with similar air capabilities nukes are gonna fly anyways, so yeah it seems like a waste of money to me

site fucked around with this message at Oct 7, 2017 around 04:54

HIJK
Nov 25, 2012

People were stupid, sometimes. They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library.


It's hard to imagine Marvel having enough circulation to justify them getting a contract like this based off the comics alone. I wonder what else is on the backdeal table to get a booth at NYCC while Punisher gets pushed back, cripes.

Henker
May 4, 2009

I'm not Batman.


The hilarious thing is how utterly myopic the whole thing is. Did no one at any point stop and ask, "hey this might look bad to most people"? I assume they were too busy counting those fat stacks of war profiteer cash.

We live in a world where the Kendall Jenner Pepsi thing happened and that might not even be the dumbest corporate PR move this year.

Lightning Lord
Feb 21, 2013

$200 a day, plus expenses



Henker posted:

The hilarious thing is how utterly myopic the whole thing is. Did no one at any point stop and ask, "hey this might look bad to most people"? I assume they were too busy counting those fat stacks of war profiteer cash.

We live in a world where the Kendall Jenner Pepsi thing happened and that might not even be the dumbest corporate PR move this year.

I'm willing to bet that the original plan was to have it fly under the radar and perhaps some overzealous young exec thought publicizing it was a good idea.

HIJK posted:

It's hard to imagine Marvel having enough circulation to justify them getting a contract like this based off the comics alone. I wonder what else is on the backdeal table to get a booth at NYCC while Punisher gets pushed back, cripes.

I don't think the circulation of their regular comics matters, it's a freely distributed ad utilizing incredibly popular characters.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


Lightning Lord posted:

I'm willing to bet that the original plan was to have it fly under the radar and perhaps some overzealous young exec thought publicizing it was a good idea.

Nah, I'd bet that some degree of publicity was a part of the deal N-G made with Disney.

As for "did no one stop to think this might look bad?" remember that the big two comics companies have been doing this poo poo for years with other companies; I'd bet that no one thought anyone would care about it any more than they cared when the Sears Craftsman Tools guy or Colonel Sanders from KFC or Jared from Subway (hilarious in hindsight) helped comics characters save the world. It's just that whoever made this deal was probably assuming everyone'd say "oh another lovely corporate tie-in comic, who gives a poo poo" and move on, but instead people noticed that "uh guys the makers of the B-2 stealth bomber and the guys with the seven secret herbs and spices are not functionally or morally equivalent."

EDIT: Like, seriously, this is not in any way an uncommon practice for either Marvel or DC; you just typically don't hear about it that often because literally no one gives a gently caress. And if you're looking at Northrop Grumman the way a corporate exec probably does - that they're "just another corporation" - it probably seems like it should be no big deal. Except they're not just another corporation, they're a major military contractor.

DivineCoffeeBinge fucked around with this message at Oct 7, 2017 around 05:15

HIJK
Nov 25, 2012

People were stupid, sometimes. They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library.


They tried to warn us with the Eminem/Punisher thing but we didn't listen.

AlmightyBob
Sep 8, 2003



I'd really love to read an insider expose on how this deal happened and how they explained it to the writers/artists

achillesforever6
Apr 23, 2012

#RXTREVOLUTIONFOREVER6


AlmightyBob posted:

I'd really love to read an insider expose on how this deal happened and how they explained it to the writers/artists
Do the writers and artists have a union, because if they do they should have just boycotted this poo poo the second they received word what their next project was.

Lightning Lord
Feb 21, 2013

$200 a day, plus expenses



DivineCoffeeBinge posted:

Nah, I'd bet that some degree of publicity was a part of the deal N-G made with Disney.

As for "did no one stop to think this might look bad?" remember that the big two comics companies have been doing this poo poo for years with other companies; I'd bet that no one thought anyone would care about it any more than they cared when the Sears Craftsman Tools guy or Colonel Sanders from KFC or Jared from Subway (hilarious in hindsight) helped comics characters save the world. It's just that whoever made this deal was probably assuming everyone'd say "oh another lovely corporate tie-in comic, who gives a poo poo" and move on, but instead people noticed that "uh guys the makers of the B-2 stealth bomber and the guys with the seven secret herbs and spices are not functionally or morally equivalent."

EDIT: Like, seriously, this is not in any way an uncommon practice for either Marvel or DC; you just typically don't hear about it that often because literally no one gives a gently caress. And if you're looking at Northrop Grumman the way a corporate exec probably does - that they're "just another corporation" - it probably seems like it should be no big deal. Except they're not just another corporation, they're a major military contractor.

Was the Justice League Craftsman comic tweeted out though? Or did it just happen and was handed out at Sears or whatever

achillesforever6 posted:

Do the writers and artists have a union, because if they do they should have just boycotted this poo poo the second they received word what their next project was.

No, Neal Adams spearheaded an attempt to establish one in the 70s but it didn't take off. http://comicsalliance.com/comic-creators-rates-1978/

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


Lightning Lord posted:

Was the Justice League Craftsman comic tweeted out though? Or did it just happen and was handed out at Sears or whatever

I don't know if anyone used the megaphone that is Twitter, but I do know I saw several news stories about it, some even in publications that do honest-to-gosh journalism. The KFC one I know was tweeted about and written about.

E: yeah, BTW, there's no union for comics professionals. poo poo, they're not even employees; the writers and artists are self-employed independent contractors. Even guys with an "exclusive" deal are just signing a contract that says "I won't work for your competition, and in exchange when you do buy my stuff I get a decent rate and maybe, if I'm well-established, a guaranteed number of projects per year."

DivineCoffeeBinge fucked around with this message at Oct 7, 2017 around 05:35

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Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

Coach Bloodshot
Default Status: SHOUTING


site posted:

https://twitter.com/RosieMarx/status/916524490368212993


Tbh im not sure why we need to keep throwing trillions of dollars towards new planes when we havent had a war where similar jets have been used on the opposing side in real sorties since like what Vietnam? And the next time we fight countries with similar air capabilities nukes are gonna fly anyways, so yeah it seems like a waste of money to me

I am 100% for them cancelling the event but someone should point out to the person that tweeted this that A) comic books are not for children and the industry tossed that pretense out the window over a decade ago and B) NYCC is not aimed at or geared towards children specifically.

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