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Death Ray: I get what you're asking but it's unreasonable and unfair to ask people to roll over in the face of persistent dehumanization. Nobody is saying that if everybody just yells at ComicsGaters long enough and loud enough that their heads will explode Scanners-style, but if someone tells you you're less than human and should kill yourself you prove nothing by just smiling and taking it. Especially when and if you're a member of a demographic which can expect verbal harrassment and even physical assault in public, it's extraordinarily difficult to take a zen approach to countering that kind of poo poo. Look, I'm probably a lot more optimistic about the potential of discourse and debate than a lot of people, because I've taught a lot of freshman who come to college with weird and half-formed ideas and who, by exposure to different people and different ways of thinking, really do become less sexist, less racist, less homophobic, etc.. I know being ideologically nudged towards one direction is a two way street. But I also recognize and appreciate that anger is and historically has been a vital instrument and that if you're faced with consistent dehumanization from a given source getting pissed off about it is absolutely legitimate. I'd never flip some 18 year old kids desk over and hurl him out the window because he brings up Jordan Peterson in a response paper, but if some MAGA prick calls me a she-male on the subway I'm not going to smile beatifically and thank him for it. You're talking about pragmatic, measured solutions to undercut the social capital of ComicsGate as a cultural and economic entity, which is an important conversation, site is talking about surviving every day without having a nervous breakdown, which is also an important conversation. I'm willing to believe you're both working towards the same thing more broadly but you're kind of missing her point. (edited because I missed some posts while writing this and it really looked like I was just hurling a giant nonsequitor at E&C)
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Oct 13, 2018 18:21
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Death Ray posted:For those paying attention, here is example "one" of why people who hate ComicsGate are constantly frustrated by their inability to thwart it. I asked a reasonable question, and was called a "Nazi" for it, when anyone who is at all familiar with my efforts knows that I am actually working harder than most to subvert ComicsGate. If your argument is be nice to nazis, even when they want to eradicate you, and you deploy the same rhetorical traps nazis use to get the party who disagrees with that notion to get them to waste their time justifying such a position, you're no ally of mine If it walks like a nazi and talks like a nazi... site fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Oct 13, 2018 |
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Oct 13, 2018 18:22
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Death Ray posted:Let us say that this means de-funding the business aspect of the movement. How would you achieve this? (These are all honest questions, by the way, and asked in good faith.) It's not complicated. You don't employ them, and make it clear that their loss of employment is down to them damaging the reputation of your firm with their actions. That's all you can do. If anyone else wants to employ a known racist or homo/transphobe or misogynist, you can't stop them. But you don't support them.
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Oct 13, 2018 18:25
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Kai Tave posted:
Thank you for your thoughtful response. Let's see if I can get your eyes back in their proper orientation. I gather that you are referring to Chuck Wendig when you talk about "firing people for mean things." I had never heard of Mr. Wendig before, but if you considered him an ally in the fight, then let me deliver the bad news: Chuck Wendig was a fool. I am not saying that he currently IS a fool (politeness, people! And earth tones!), but he certainly played a fool. Not only was he obnoxious enough to get himself fired, achieving nothing for the cause he supports, but he also CREDITED ComicsGate for his firing, handing them a win. Chuck's ego got the better of him. He did us no favors. As for deplatforming, this seems to be the left's "go to" move these days: let the corporations police the speech for us and handle the bad guys we can't handle ourselves. Do I even need to explain the folly of this, not to mention the sheer laziness of it? I'd like to think that I don't have to
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Oct 13, 2018 18:26
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I mean the actual thing which would do more to put a stake in poo poo like comicsgate would be for social media platforms to start actually moderating, for example, accounts which engage in things like harassment and hateful rhetoric (and bots while we're at it) but it's been abundantly demonstrated that the people in charge of these platforms 100% do not care to do anything of the sort (unless you do like Alex Jones and bother one of them in person).
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Oct 13, 2018 18:27
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Jedit posted:It's not complicated. You don't employ them, and make it clear that their loss of employment is down to them damaging the reputation of your firm with their actions. Ah! But if we count the enemy as folks like Van Sciver, Richard C. Meyer, etc., then this cannot work, since they are self-employed. You must not be so quick to say "this is ALL we can do." In fact, most of what people think are the best and only tactics available are, in fact (apart from not being the only tactics available), completely worthless.
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Oct 13, 2018 18:28
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Kai Tave posted:I mean the actual thing which would do more to put a stake in poo poo like comicsgate would be for social media platforms to start actually moderating, for example, accounts which engage in things like harassment and hateful rhetoric (and bots while we're at it) but it's been abundantly demonstrated that the people in charge of these platforms 100% do not care to do anything of the sort (unless you do like Alex Jones and bother one of them in person). Once again, "deplatform deplatfrom deplatform." Take away speech instead of fighting it with superior speech and strategy. The left has forgoten how to play ball with these creeps. They have learned to love Big Brother.
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Oct 13, 2018 18:31
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Death Ray posted:Once again, "deplatform deplatfrom deplatform." Take away speech instead of fighting it with superior speech and strategy. The left has forgoten how to play ball with these creeps. They have learned to love Big Brother. No you know what, site was right, gently caress off. e; If comparing content moderation to Big Brother is the depth of your rhetorical well I don't think comicsgate really has a lot to fear from your efforts.
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Oct 13, 2018 18:33
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Death Ray posted:Once again, "deplatform deplatfrom deplatform." Take away speech instead of fighting it with superior speech and strategy. The left has forgoten how to play ball with these creeps. They have learned to love Big Brother. Are you going to actually say what you advocate at any point or are you just going to do this "do you even know who you're talking to" bit all afternoon.
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Oct 13, 2018 18:35
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Death Ray posted:Yes. Besides that. https://youtu.be/aG59WqrAN3M
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Oct 13, 2018 18:38
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Kai Tave posted:No you know what, site was right, gently caress off. Again, let the record show: When challenged, in polite terms, the name calling begins. I am not offended by this, but it is worth pointing out that this is EXACTLY how my conversations with Gaters always go. So this is lesson two for defeating ComicsGate: Grow a thicker skin. If what you were doing was working, we would not even be having this conversation. EVS would be drawing caricatures at children's parties and Chuck Wendig would still be working at Marvel. (Please note that I do not engage in name calling or swearing against any my critics, you handsome fellow!)
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Oct 13, 2018 18:39
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jason your comics suck and you should stop posting
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Oct 13, 2018 18:41
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Archyduke posted:Are you going to actually say what you advocate at any point or are you just going to do this "do you even know who you're talking to" bit all afternoon. Yes, I will. But first I have to break the ice. People are still telling me to "gently caress off" for pointing out that ComicsGate does not appear to be on the ropes despite all the kitchen sinks thrown against it. I need people to relax a bit so that they will be willing to listen. I hope you will be one of those people.
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Oct 13, 2018 18:41
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Alaois posted:jason your comics suck and you should stop posting Mom, I have asked you to stop following me online 
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Oct 13, 2018 18:41
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Tee hee. Good response! Sadly, it is not an option. (Or is it? I'm building to something here... let's see who else nibbles my bait.)
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Oct 13, 2018 18:43
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Every single one of these posts has been nazi.txt
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Oct 13, 2018 18:46
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Death Ray, you're loving stupid.
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Oct 13, 2018 18:47
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Death Ray posted:Tee hee. Good response! Sadly, it is not an option. this posting makes me wanna give you a wedgie. with proper decorum ofc
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Oct 13, 2018 18:48
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IUG posted:Death Ray, you're loving stupid. I will ask you the same question I have asked others: Tell me what ComicsGate in retreat would actually look like? If you could truly thwart them, in a way that does not require a TARDIS, what would that look like? What would have to happen?
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Oct 13, 2018 18:49
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FutureFriend posted:this posting makes me wanna give you a wedgie. with proper decorum ofc A gentlemen's wedgie is good sport, sir.
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Oct 13, 2018 18:50
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The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi, hope this helps.
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Oct 13, 2018 18:50
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Oh and the defeat of comicsgate, and gamergate, and the alt right as a whole would, in a perfect world, look a lot like the Nuremberg trials.
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Oct 13, 2018 18:52
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Death Ray posted:I will ask you the same question I have asked others: Tell me what ComicsGate in retreat would actually look like? If you could truly thwart them, in a way that does not require a TARDIS, what would that look like? What would have to happen? And I will answer you're a loving idiot. I don't owe you a loving answer.
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Oct 13, 2018 18:53
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Edge & Christian posted:I think that's a productive conversation to have, and it's kind of surprising that more companies don't have explicit social media/PR guidelines. Absolutely, and when that one-- sorry, I'm blanking-- kind of shady indie press from a few weeks ago came out with that blanket social media policy about not responding to critics or whatever it was eye-opening as to how nebulous a lot of the comics industry actually is in making clear what kind of social media guidelines can and can't be enforced (I think you or somebody else actually posted that DC document during that conversation too). quote:I'm most curious about this honestly. I think a lot of this underlines the labor issues as much as the... I dunno, culture wars? of the comics industry. It's darkly hilarious that EVS and company are crowing about them "taking a bishop" in a chess game because if that's the competition, then they took a dude who's written less than a dozen issues of Marvel Comics 'off the board' while leaving... everyone else at Marvel? Versus the Comicsgaters currently employed at Marvel, such as.... [scene missing]. There are about a thousand labor issues at play at Marvel I think, and I understand why people are not speaking out, though I wish they would. deCampi might not be the perfect spokesperson, given that she seems to have problems with every company/editor she's worked with. given that the first time she pitched to Vertigo she turned around and went onto the Warren Ellis Forums to lament what an absolute shitshow of a penny-ante operation DC was, and how she thought the editor she pitched to (Shelly Bond, a generally beloved editor) was some sort of Eastern Bloc Lesbian Secretary whose lack of fashion proved she didn't have a creative bone in her body. Yeah, for sure, asking anyone to be the first person to break the silence about unfair labor practices is a lot, and there are obvious reasons why people like Chelsea Cain and Wendig, who have perfectly healthy writing careers outside of comics, have less to lose from being transparent about stuff like this. And if cover-credit creators feel like they're walking on such a narrow wire, I can only imagine how things are for people lower in the hierarchy.
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Oct 13, 2018 18:56
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Death Ray posted:I will ask you the same question I have asked others: Tell me what ComicsGate in retreat would actually look like? If you could truly thwart them, in a way that does not require a TARDIS, what would that look like? What would have to happen? All of them dead in a ditch. But then we are the nazis.  Checkmate sjw libtards.
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Oct 13, 2018 18:57
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IUG posted:And I will answer you're a loving idiot. I don't owe you a loving answer. However, you DID give me an answer. And I think these are the kinds of answers that have already proven to be ineffective against ComicsGate (and might I also add, ineffective against the white whale that we all know is the real target of this and related ire, one Mr. Donald Trump.) At this juncture I'm sure anyone listening is saying "Get to the loving point, and make it something I can dismiss easily so I can get my blood up some more." My point is this, and I invite any proof to the contrary: What people who disagree with ComicsGate clearly lack is even a shred of strategy. (Still listening?)
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Oct 13, 2018 18:59
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Death Ray posted:Ah! But if we count the enemy as folks like Van Sciver, Richard C. Meyer, etc., then this cannot work, since they are self-employed. No, short of actively seeking them out to harm them it is all we can do. But no comics publisher is obliged to employ them. No distributor is obliged to carry their books. No FLCS is obliged to order their books. And no reader is obliged to read them. Here's a question for you, since you like them so much. Self-employed or not, van Sciver et al are still running a business. How long do you think they will continue to do so, if their business takes in no money?
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Oct 13, 2018 19:02
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Death Ray posted:Yes, I will. But first I have to break the ice. People are still telling me to "gently caress off" for pointing out that ComicsGate does not appear to be on the ropes despite all the kitchen sinks thrown against it. I need people to relax a bit so that they will be willing to listen. I hope you will be one of those people. You might have figured it out by now, but you're not doing a good job of this. I was working on another reply before I saw your latest posts and you're quickly becoming more and more obnoxious with their sanctimonious tone. You've never posted in this thread before and now suddenly you're here to tell everyone precisely how they're doing it wrong. I know when I'm trying to break into a new group of people I like to lead with "Hello everyone, let me shill my twitter. Now, this is how you're all doing it wrong. I could tell you what I think actually works, but before I do that I need to spend a certain amount of time chiding you. Nice to meet you!" For the record I don't think people yelling at these people for the most part are doing it with the intention of "defeating" them. They're doing it with the intention of yelling at them because they're fed up with their bullshit and in many cases have lives that are actively made worse by their bullshit. What you've done here is barge into this thread and say to at least one of these people "Ah, but have you considered perhaps not yelling at the people who want you to die?" I don't think it's giving them too much credit to think that perhaps they have.
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Oct 13, 2018 19:03
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Is this a loving clickbait article (Continued after advertisement)
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Oct 13, 2018 19:03
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Jedit posted:No, short of actively seeking them out to harm them it is all we can do. But no comics publisher is obliged to employ them. No distributor is obliged to carry their books. No FLCS is obliged to order their books. And no reader is obliged to read them. Not long at all, of course. But that is the $1mi question: how does one harrm their business when your own money is not required for their success?
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Oct 13, 2018 19:06
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Viridiant posted:You might have figured it out by now, but you're not doing a good job of this. I was working on another reply before I saw your latest posts and you're quickly becoming more and more obnoxious with their sanctimonious tone. You've never posted in this thread before and now suddenly you're here to tell everyone precisely how they're doing it wrong. I know when I'm trying to break into a new group of people I like to lead with "Hello everyone, let me shill my twitter. Now, this is how you're all doing it wrong. I could tell you what I think actually works, but before I do that I need to spend a certain amount of time chiding you. Nice to meet you!" Thank you for your observations. However, if you read what I have read, you will notice that I have not told ANYONE that what they are doing wrong, or even broached the subject of how to do things right. I'm glad you are concerned with tact as well as tactic. In my experience, whether you are debating friends or enemies, you must be prepared for the fact that no one takes criticism well, especially in a group of strangers. So, to warm up, I am only pointing out the undeniable, that what is being done against CG is not working well. Once we can agree on that much, then I will have a suggestion or two. First, however, I need to be yelled at some more, sanctimonious fuckwad that I am
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Oct 13, 2018 19:13
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Don't you see guys, he's puppetmastering this entire thread. We're such fools, we fell right into his trap.
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Oct 13, 2018 19:15
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Death Ray posted:First, however, I need to be yelled at some more, sanctimonious fuckwad that I am
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Oct 13, 2018 19:15
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I suspect the point he is trying to make is that being calm and polite and generally the way he is behaving is a good way to get people angry and make them look bad. Which (if that is the point) does run into the problem of acting that way when you're being harassed by an all-consuming legion nonstop in a way that actively impacts your day-to-day life is extremely hard.
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Oct 13, 2018 19:19
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Death Ray posted:Not long at all, of course. But that is the $1mi question: how does one harrm their business when your own money is not required for their success? There's always going to be Nazis, and they'll fund each other. But Nazis only have so much cash to go round. If EVS et al can't expand their base beyond the people already in the echo chamber, then they lose.
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Oct 13, 2018 19:21
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ImpAtom posted:I suspect the point he is trying to make is that being calm and polite and generally the way he is behaving is a good way to get people angry and make them look bad. Which (if that is the point) does run into the problem of acting that way when you're being harassed by an all-consuming legion nonstop in a way that actively impacts your day-to-day life is extremely hard. That is a good guess, but no. I am being polite so that I can garner enough interest in the points I will eventually make, but without having insulted anyone along the way. As you can see, I need to absorb a few punches along the way. But you, I suspect, are curious enough to stick around for the pay off.
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Oct 13, 2018 19:23
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Jedit posted:There's always going to be Nazis, and they'll fund each other. But Nazis only have so much cash to go round. If EVS et al can't expand their base beyond the people already in the echo chamber, then they lose. Very true. And that, of course, is why not feeding the beast is important. ComicsGate obviously needs hot blooded drama to justify their existence. But they are also skilled at drumming it up.
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Oct 13, 2018 19:24
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gently caress off Nazi.
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Oct 13, 2018 19:25
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Death Ray posted:That is a good guess, but no. I am being polite so that I can garner enough interest in the points I will eventually make, but without having insulted anyone along the way. Why are you treating a conversation like charging up a special attack? Make the points you want to make, dude. This game sucks.
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Oct 13, 2018 19:29
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Death Ray posted:As you can see, I need to absorb a few punches along the way. But you, I suspect, are curious enough to stick around for the pay off. Pay off declined. Go away.
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Oct 13, 2018 19:31
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