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Kchama
Jul 25, 2007





pentyne posted:

It's one thing to read a book absent of the opinions and views of its author. Sure tons of famous fantasy/SF authors turned out to be horrible human beings, but it's not like Marion Zimmer Bradley wrote into her books how it was okay to sanction and participate in the abuse of children or Orson Scott Card wrote a bunch of stuff about brutalizing and killing gay people, so you could still enjoy the core content of what they wrote without being fed their own personal hosed up life ideas.

I'm prettyyyyy sure you're wrong there.

Though he did seem to go back and forth on this.

You aren't wrong about Rothfuss though, except for the 'always a hair away from calling her a whore' as he literally does that at one point because he gets mad.

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M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMPIN' ON INTO THE POWER LINES

Exciting Lemon

And I was beginning to think my dating life was boring.

I must assume you all are writing trashy genre fiction about your dating drama because how the hell do those people exist?

HIJK
Nov 25, 2012

People were stupid, sometimes. They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library.


M_Gargantua posted:

And I was beginning to think my dating life was boring.

I must assume you all are writing trashy genre fiction about your dating drama because how the hell do those people exist?

Of course these people exist, they're nerds

anilEhilated
Feb 17, 2014

But I say fuck the rain.



Grimey Drawer

M_Gargantua posted:

And I was beginning to think my dating life was boring.

I must assume you all are writing trashy genre fiction about your dating drama because how the hell do those people exist?
You haven't lived until Rothfuss ruined your relationship.

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMPIN' ON INTO THE POWER LINES

Exciting Lemon

I am a normal nerd who is average and i'm socially awkward enough to never get dates

How do crazy people get dates that then reveal they're parts of insane deathcults of ironic tentacle porn? Or that they think Rothfuss is a literary king?

This thread convincing me to become a lovely writer instead of a paid computer toucher.

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat


Gravy Boat 2k

Kchama posted:

I'm prettyyyyy sure you're wrong there.
Yeah. Bradley thought it was "okay" to "sanction" child abuse (it's not like she raped her daughter or anything), while Card is apparently some kind of serial killer.

Edit: I just love that because pentyne agrees with Bradley's ideology and not Card's, Bradley's goddamn loving vileness has to be downplayed as much as possible and Card has to be the real monster. In a post about being level-headed in spite of ideological differences.

Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Oct 8, 2017

HIJK
Nov 25, 2012

People were stupid, sometimes. They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library.


No one tells you about their Rothfuss obsession right away...they draw you in with normalcy...then they drop the facade. That's how they get you.

Kchama
Jul 25, 2007





Sham bam bamina! posted:

Yeah. Bradley thought it was "okay" to "sanction" child abuse (it's not like she raped her daughter or anything), while Card is apparently some kind of serial killer.

Edit: I just love that because pentyne agrees with Bradley's ideology and not Card's, Bradley's goddamn loving vileness has to be downplayed as much as possible and Card has to be the real monster. In a post about being level-headed in spite of ideological differences.

I will be fair to them: The fact that Bradley took part in the abuse and surprise sex is a pretty newly known thing, compared to knowing that she was okay with her daughter (EDIT: and son I wish I didn't need to edit that in) being abused and raped, which people have known for like decades. EDIT: Bradley being a rapist was only known a few years ago. While Card's particular brand of evil has been known for like 17 years.

Also while I don't think Card has murdered anyone, he has totally written about how super evil gay people are and how they deserve death and encouraging oppression and worse.

So he has been kind of open about being an evil monster, unlike Bradley.

Kchama fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Oct 8, 2017

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat


Gravy Boat 2k

It's true. Thinking spiteful and stupid things about a group of people makes you a monster, just like raping your daughter for years. And three years is a blink of an eye on the Internet, far too short a time for word to get around.

Kchama
Jul 25, 2007





Sham bam bamina! posted:

It's true. Thinking spiteful and stupid things about a group of people makes you a monster, just like raping your daughter for years. And three years is a blink of an eye on the Internet, far too short a time for word to get around.

Attempting galvanizing people to hurt entire groups DOES make you a monster, even if you aren't successful. It's not like it can't have an affect, like Scott Lively convincing a country to make being gay punishable by death.

And it's not like everyone is wired in on every awful thing an author has done, especially someone who has been dead for decades. Hell, you appeared to be as unaware as I was that she molested her son.

So I'm fine with cutting someone some slack.

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat


Gravy Boat 2k

Kchama posted:

Attempting galvanizing people to hurt entire groups DOES make you a monster, even if you aren't successful. It's not like it can't have an affect, like Scott Lively convincing a country to make being gay punishable by death.
Card hates homosexuality because he believes that it is morally wrong. Depressingly misguided as it is, he's at least following his conscience (informed by a lifetime lived in the Mormon faith). When Bradley spent years and years raping her daughter, it was because she had a black, sucking void where a conscience should have been. That is a loving monster, and don't trivialize that by trying to equate Card with her.

Kchama posted:

And it's not like everyone is wired in on every awful thing an author has done, especially someone who has been dead for decades. Hell, you appeared to be as unaware as I was that she molested her son.
The way I remembered it, she got their daughter and her husband got their son. If that's not true, blame it on my reading the news three years ago, although I don't know how much grace that gets me since that might as well have been this morning apparently.

Kchama
Jul 25, 2007





Sham bam bamina! posted:

Card hates homosexuality because he believes that it is morally wrong. Depressingly misguided as it is, he's at least following his conscience (informed by a lifetime lived in the Mormon faith). When Bradley spent years and years raping her daughter, it was because she had a black, sucking void where a conscience should have been. That is a loving monster, and don't trivialize that by trying to equate Card with her.
I wasn't saying they were equals at all. They're both poo poo. Just on different levels. Hell, I was the one saying that Card WASN'T a brutal murderer, remember?

Also "he thinks it's right" reallllyyyyy doesn't make Card less of a lovely person. It just means it's going to be that much harder to realize he is an awful terrible person.

Sham bam bamina! posted:

The way I remembered it, she got their daughter and her husband got their son. If that's not true, blame it on my reading the news three years ago, although I don't know how much grace that gets me since that might as well have been this morning apparently.

Unfortunately, no. According to Marion's daughter, Marion was far worse then her husband and had many more victims beyond the two!

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat


Gravy Boat 2k

Card is a lovely person because you have to be a person to be a lovely person. Bradley was an exemplary monster.

Kchama
Jul 25, 2007





Sham bam bamina! posted:

Card is a lovely person because you have to be a person to be a lovely person. Bradley was an exemplary monster.

Now we're just arging degrees.

To underail, at least so far Rothfuss hasn't been discovered to use his fame to bone fans or something.

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat


Gravy Boat 2k

I apologize for derailing the thread from the engaging discussion people were having about the subtle merits of The Doors of Stone, Rothfuss's greatest work yet.

edit

Kchama posted:

Now we're just arging degrees.
If this had been about "degrees", there wouldn't have been an argument in the first place. My whole point was that there's a qualitative difference.

Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Oct 8, 2017

Evil Fluffy
Jul 13, 2009

Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

the old ceremony posted:

never, to this day

You made the right choice.

Kchama
Jul 25, 2007





Haha I was looking through Orson Scott Card's Wikipedia page and he apparently wants tolerance from people for his attempts to get gay people jailed now that he's definitely lost his struggle to criminalize being LGBT. What a fucker.

Dirt Road Junglist
Oct 8, 2010

There's a ghost in me
Who wants to say I'm sorry
Doesn't mean I'm sorry






Bradley and Breen left a lot of wreckage in their wake...

the old ceremony
Aug 1, 2017

by FactsAreUseless


M_Gargantua posted:

How do crazy people get dates that then reveal they're parts of insane deathcults of ironic tentacle porn?
i was introduced to him by my friend, who just told me he was very nice, then later revealed they'd been together and he'd dumped her for not wanting to do bondage

Kchama
Jul 25, 2007





Dirt Road Junglist posted:

Bradley and Breen left a lot of wreckage in their wake...

It's sad it took long after their deaths for it to come out. Like, I get the daughter's reason for remaining silent after she put her dad in jail, but she told people and no one said a word.

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Lipstick Apathy

Please, let's distract ourselves with something funny instead

---

I kept hearing about a new fantasy novel by first-time writer Patrick Rothfuss, called The Name of the Wind. I'm leery of starting new trilogies whose later books have not been written -- how long have we been waiting for George R.R. Martin to finish his? And who can even think of Robert Jordan's endless Wheel of Time?

But finally the pressure grew too great. I opened The Name of the Wind and started to read.

Folks, this is the real thing. Though it's considerably darker than the Harry Potter series, this is also a bildungsroman -- the story of the childhood, education, and training of a boy who grew up to be a legendary hero.

The structure is odd -- the story is narrated by the hero himself, who has apparently fallen on hard times and is now in disguise as an innkeeper in a country village. He still does heroic things (unbeknownst to others) but mostly he simply tends bar as his magical skills wane.

He is always accompanied by a disciple who happens to be a dangerous creature in his own right, and he tells the story to a scribe who is known for recording true stories. The frame story is so interesting that you don't mind when the narrative switches back and forth between the tale of Kvothe's growing-up years and the current events in the inn.

This book was so exciting that I couldn't resist skipping ahead to the end to make sure that the writer didn't end it stupidly. Yet the process of reading it was so pleasurable that even knowing how the book ended, I still went back and read every single word, so as not to miss a thing.

Not a word of the nearly-700-page book is wasted. Rothfuss does not pad. He's the great new fantasy writer we've been waiting for, and this is an astonishing book. I don't recommend it for pre-teens, mostly because it moves at an adult-fiction pace and has some truly disturbing events. But he does not describe gore (though the action is intense) and while there is some sexual tension, nothing is shown that would shock a teenager.

If you're a reader of fantasy or simply someone who appreciates a truly epic-scale work of fiction, don't go through this summer without having read it. At the very least it will keep you busy till the last Harry Potter comes out. But I warn you -- after The Name of the Wind, the Harry Potter novel might seem a little thin and -- dare I say it? -- childish. You have been warned.

- Orson Scott Card

Kchama
Jul 25, 2007





At least he's right to compare it to Harry Potter. Just not in the way he thinks.

Evil Fluffy
Jul 13, 2009

Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

the old ceremony posted:

i was introduced to him by my friend, who just told me he was very nice, then later revealed they'd been together and he'd dumped her for not wanting to do bondage

Your friend doesn't sound like a friend.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


The thing that gets me about Rothfuss fandom is that there's just so little to be a fan of. He's written two novels and a smattering of short stories, all in the same world, and maintains a blog. I think he's done some podcasting? Plus there's the various Kickstarters he's participated in. And all of it is set in the same world.

It's not like there's dozens of books across multiple worlds with a score of memorable villains and protagonists. You either love Kvothe or you don't. You either love paying for a fancy deck of cards or you don't.

I just don't get it.

PJOmega
May 5, 2009


Atlas Hugged posted:

The thing that gets me about Rothfuss fandom is that there's just so little to be a fan of. He's written two novels and a smattering of short stories, all in the same world, and maintains a blog. I think he's done some podcasting? Plus there's the various Kickstarters he's participated in. And all of it is set in the same world.

I spent a six hour drive with a woman and her boyfriend listening to her extoll the virtues of NotW. She also tried to get her roommate to read the Sword of Truth books by Goodkind. She was also trying to jump from her boyfriend to me and was a hardcore masochist in to BDSM.

Wait I'm starting to see a pattern.

HIJK
Nov 25, 2012

People were stupid, sometimes. They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library.


Atlas Hugged posted:

The thing that gets me about Rothfuss fandom is that there's just so little to be a fan of. He's written two novels and a smattering of short stories, all in the same world, and maintains a blog. I think he's done some podcasting? Plus there's the various Kickstarters he's participated in. And all of it is set in the same world.

It's not like there's dozens of books across multiple worlds with a score of memorable villains and protagonists. You either love Kvothe or you don't. You either love paying for a fancy deck of cards or you don't.

I just don't get it.

YOU'RE JUST JEALOUS BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T PUBLISHED ANYTHING

StonecutterJoe
Mar 29, 2016


Atlas Hugged posted:

It's not like there's dozens of books across multiple worlds with a score of memorable villains and protagonists. You either love Kvothe or you don't. You either love paying for a fancy deck of cards or you don't.

Truth, like, Brandon Sanderson? Dude's done a billion things. It's entirely possible to say "Well, I didn't like X and Y, but Z was exactly what I wanted and I'm crazy about it." Lots of genre writers fit that bill. Being a Rothfuss fan means being a Kvothe fan, full stop.

Evil Fluffy
Jul 13, 2009

Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

StonecutterJoe posted:

Truth, like, Brandon Sanderson? Dude's done a billion things. It's entirely possible to say "Well, I didn't like X and Y, but Z was exactly what I wanted and I'm crazy about it." Lots of genre writers fit that bill. Being a Rothfuss fan means being a Kvothe fan, full stop.

That's not true, they might be fans of sex ninjas and fantasy world calendars and monetary systems.


But Sanderson is like the anti-Rothfuss. He actually writes, actually enjoys writing, and gives updates constantly for the 4093709445 things he's working on. I don't think he claims to be a feminist either and yet female characters like Shallan and Vin are better written than any female character Rothfuss is going to write.

Evil Fluffy fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Oct 9, 2017

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


Evil Fluffy posted:

That's not true, they might be fans of sex ninjas and fantasy world calendars and monetary systems.


But Sanderson is like the anti-Rothfuss. He actually writes, actually enjoys writing, and gives updates constantly for the 4093709445 things he's working on. I don't think he claims to be a feminist either and yet female characters like Shallan and Vin are better written than any female character Rothfuss is going to write.

Sanderson mostly comments on Magic: The Gathering when he talks about his personal thoughts and opinions. I know he's some sort of advocate for special needs children because one of his own kids is. But given that he's a Mormon and the last well known Mormon sci-fi author is most recently best known for his insane rants, Sanderson probably figured keeping his drat mouth shut was for the best even if he happened to be (comparatively) liberal.

But yeah it's hard not to appreciate Sanderson's work ethic regardless of how you feel about his actual talent.

At least GRRM and Robert Jordan did things outside of their best known works and Jordan never really had an issue meeting deadlines. He just couldn't wrap the story up.

SpacePig
Apr 4, 2007

They want to murder you in a well!
Seems a bit harsh, but
apparently they want to,
it says here on this card.


Atlas Hugged posted:

The thing that gets me about Rothfuss fandom is that there's just so little to be a fan of. He's written two novels and a smattering of short stories, all in the same world, and maintains a blog. I think he's done some podcasting? Plus there's the various Kickstarters he's participated in. And all of it is set in the same world.

It's not like there's dozens of books across multiple worlds with a score of memorable villains and protagonists. You either love Kvothe or you don't. You either love paying for a fancy deck of cards or you don't.

I just don't get it.

I'm honestly somewhat happy that Rothfuss has taken as long with book 3 as he has, because it's made me find other stuff to read and take a more critical look at the Kingkiller books themselves. There was a point where I would've called Rothfuss my favorite author, and I've luckily had 10 years now to reconsider that stance. Why opinion had been waning, especially on a reread of the books at one point, but Slow Regard just shattered any love I might've had for him and his writing style.

Ornamented Death
Jan 25, 2006

Pew pew!



Atlas Hugged posted:

But given that he's a Mormon and the last well known Mormon sci-fi author is most recently best known for his insane rants, Sanderson probably figured keeping his drat mouth shut was for the best even if he happened to be (comparatively) liberal.

Sanderson has made bone-headed comments in the past (though not even approaching Card), but was called out on it and did some self-reflection and apologized and, most importantly, accepted such events as learning experiences and worked to be a better person.

the old ceremony
Aug 1, 2017

by FactsAreUseless


mormons are bad

Malpais Legate
Oct 1, 2014



Man that OP almost made me forget what this thread was about and who typed it.

How many times did you vomit while writing that, BotL?

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Lipstick Apathy

Malpais Legate posted:

Man that OP almost made me forget what this thread was about and who typed it.

How many times did you vomit while writing that, BotL?

I grinned, and then grinned more when jivjov shamefully closed his stump imitation of my OP.

jivjov is also welcome to explain why Kingkiller is well-written and how Rothfuss portrays women.

BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Oct 9, 2017

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012
I POSTED ON SOMETHINGAWFUL AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS STUPID REDTEXT.


BravestOfTheLamps posted:

I grinned, and then grinned more when jivjov shamefully closed his stump imitation of my OP.

jivjov is also welcome to explain why Kingkiller is well-written and how Rothfuss portrays women.

Or he can comment on how his 13th reading of the books is coming along.

LASER BEAM DREAM
Nov 3, 2005

Oh, what? So now I suppose you're just going to sit there and pout?

So what was it that caused the books to be liked by so many people after the first read like myself and, Iím assuming, a bunch of other people in this thread?

I read the second book in two sittings the day of and after the release, and even with that one only just started to have a vague sense of WTF during the Furilion or whateverís name part. It was only after reading the prior threads here that all the serious flaws started to really sink in.

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMPIN' ON INTO THE POWER LINES

Exciting Lemon

LASER BEAM DREAM posted:

So what was it that caused the books to be liked by so many people after the first read like myself and, Iím assuming, a bunch of other people in this thread?

I read the second book in two sittings the day of and after the release, and even with that one only just started to have a vague sense of WTF during the Furilion or whateverís name part. It was only after reading the prior threads here that all the serious flaws started to really sink in.

They're easy to consume fun genre fiction with just enough content to keep you entertained but without any meat that isn't rancid with sexism upon inspection.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


M_Gargantua posted:

They're easy to consume fun genre fiction with just enough content to keep you entertained but without any meat that isn't rancid with sexism upon inspection.

I found it to be a torturous slog from basically the first page. Not sure that "fun" and "content" have anything to do with these books.

LASER BEAM DREAM posted:

So what was it that caused the books to be liked by so many people after the first read like myself and, I’m assuming, a bunch of other people in this thread?

I read the second book in two sittings the day of and after the release, and even with that one only just started to have a vague sense of WTF during the Furilion or whatever’s name part. It was only after reading the prior threads here that all the serious flaws started to really sink in.

I've said in the previous thread that they're basically Twilight for boys. It's a power fantasy starring a character that lacks any real depth, which makes it that much easier for the reader to imagine that it's he who is outsmarting their college professors and is naturally talented at everything, from academics, to comebacks, and of course being a rock star.

TheGreatEvilKing
Mar 28, 2016



Something must be said for Rothfuss' ability to write metaphors that seem really deep and introspective but are actually meaningless and unmemorable.

This lets him fool enough people into letting him write poo poo like "The Slow Regard of Silent Things".

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PJOmega
May 5, 2009


LASER BEAM DREAM posted:

So what was it that caused the books to be liked by so many people after the first read like myself and, I’m assuming, a bunch of other people in this thread?

I read the second book in two sittings the day of and after the release, and even with that one only just started to have a vague sense of WTF during the Furilion or whatever’s name part. It was only after reading the prior threads here that all the serious flaws started to really sink in.

The audiobook is beautifully narrated and sounds lovely on first pass. Beyond that I got nothing.

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