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TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Pandamn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta


Grimey Drawer

Tiggum posted:

4. It must be possible for the heroes to defeat the villain by means of some pre-established ability or circumstance, and there must be something preventing them from doing so right away. They may acquire the ability or set up the circumstance they need before the final confrontation, but it must be consistent with the setting and, if acquired intentionally, involve some difficulty. It is absolutely not acceptable for the villain to easily defeat the hero in episode one only to lose a rematch under the exact same conditions in episode 22, nor can the team's technology expert or wizard just invent the critical piece of equipment that turns the tide.

But if one of the heroes' powers/abilities is tech wizard then this rule just negates itself.


Personally my only real rule I'd implement is that all storylines and/or villains can only be pulled from comics at least 10 years old. Like, I get it, at this point they've run through every classic Flash story and Flash villain, but poo poo like Bloodwork or this whole Forces storyline is pulling from comics from like... 2018 at oldest iirc. Time to get creative with the cast and characters you've already got or more obscure comics.

Like hell, cast a new Captain Cold. Wentworth Miller was great but he's not coming back and they straight up said in the first post-Crisis episode that previously dead people might be coming back. Cold is too good a villain to be gone forever because he died in the worst season of Legends.

Or poo poo, make up your own new characters, have them be the next Harley Quinn.

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Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


howe_sam posted:

Congratulations, you just banned Legends,

Clearly I meant no NEW shows can use time travel.

I'm dreading when Superman and Lois gets to it.


Edit: Flash just did a time travel episode and Supergirl is next week as well? What the gently caress?

Rhyno fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Apr 21, 2021

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008

DON'T DOUBLE DOWN ON YOUR STUPID SHIT JUST CAUSE YOU THINK IT'S FUNNY. YOU MAKE STUPID FUCKING DECISIONS ALL THE TIME THEN DOUBLE DOWN LIKE A PETULANT CHILD. GOD I FUCKING HATE YOU SO MUCH SOMETIMES.

Listen, sometimes you just need to use time travel when youíve run out of ideas to get your very fast superhero to stand very still long enough for the villain to bop them on the nose.

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters



Rhyno posted:

Edit: Flash just did a time travel episode and Supergirl is next week as well? What the gently caress?

My guess is Supergirl is doing a time travel story so Kara could still be on the show while Benoist was busy filming her scenes for all the episodes she missed while on maternity leave. Plus the kids who played Young Alex and Kara were great and I'm glad to see they're getting one more turn in the final season. It also lets them bring back Cat Grant without having to convince Callista Flockhart to visit Vancouver in the middle of a pandemic.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


This is going to go very badly. I'm betting they bring young Kara to the future by accident.

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters



So a reverse of the final season of Arrow? I'm down.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

A little privacy, please?


The Lord Bude posted:

3. Artificial drama that relies on characters behaving in a way that normal people would never behave is banned. This covers things like - plots that rely on characters not communicating with each other like normal people/needlessly lying or keeping secrets; The team falling apart and fighting each other for some dumb reason.

Man, you would HATE Toshiki Inoue's writing.

More seriously - people make dumb, emotionally-driven decisions all the time, including poor communication. That's the human drama of it.

The Flash is a bad show, but that's not why.

The Lord Bude
May 23, 2007

I'M DISAPPOINTED THAT CORTANA WILL BE A CIRCLE AND NOT THE ACTUAL SEXY WOMAN FROM THE GAME.


DoctorWhat posted:

Man, you would HATE Toshiki Inoue's writing.

More seriously - people make dumb, emotionally-driven decisions all the time, including poor communication. That's the human drama of it.

The Flash is a bad show, but that's not why.

If its within plausible boundaries thatís fine. Iím talking about some of the ridiculous forced melodrama that plagued latter seasons of arrow and that this show dips into some times; where characters do/think things that are completely unrealistic for the character just to force drama.

And plausible behaviour is of course subjective - star girl for example has loads of drama and dumb behaviour but itís ok because itís literally a show about teens in high school and the characterisation is appropriate.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

A little privacy, please?


What do I have to do to get y'all watching some real tokusatsu.

oh jay
Oct 15, 2012



DoctorWhat posted:

What do I have to do to get y'all watching some real tokusatsu.

An episode where they watch a Japanese adaption of themselves would be magical.

Vibe-kun kakkoii~~~

Xelkelvos
Dec 19, 2012


DoctorWhat posted:

What do I have to do to get y'all watching some real tokusatsu.

Beat you to it. Unfortunately, melodrama plots begat melodrama loving audiences and as long as the ratings keep funneling in to the CW for that type of stuff across their shows, they're gonna still keep doing that instead.

Burning_Monk
Jan 11, 2005
Mad, Bad, and Dangerous to know

Hoping Lois & Superman is the new norm. They said earlier they were pulling more money to make Flash a little more cinematic and less soapy.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

A little privacy, please?


oh jay posted:

An episode where they watch a Japanese adaption of themselves would be magical.

Vibe-kun kakkoii~~~

Great episode of Dino Thunder.

cirus
Apr 5, 2011


A big problem with these shows is when they make the main character overpowered way too early. Flash got essentially all of his main abilities in the first season and then added the lightning throw in the beginning of the second season. He went from learning his powers to phasing through matter to time travel on demand way too quickly and they had nowhere to go except to nerf him. The hero has to be at a disadvantage compared to the villain or there's no tension.

Heroes did the same thing with Peter Petrelli.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

A little privacy, please?


That's what Kamen Rider does right. One season, 40-50 half hours, hero gets stronger/new abilities over the course.

Sure it's to sell toys but when it works, it works!

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



Burning through his classic villains certainly doesn't help, nor does that cable budget that keeps him from going on really insane inter-dimensional/time travel adventures.

Flash has always been in a weird place where he's simultaneously insanely powerful, like theoretically more powerful than Superman and effectively a time god, but also just a "dude who runs fast". I've always felt this works better in the comics where one of his villains getting in a lucky shot is easier to sell since you don't have to have Flash awkwardly standing around waiting to get hit.

But yeah the "monster of the week" format for Flash can be extremely limiting. His most memorable and fun stuff has him on some crazy adventure lost in time or else against power houses like Grodd or Kadabra or the various Zooms over the course of several issues, and always with the Rogues usually actively being a nuisance in the background. The "big threat in the background with little threats popping up" is not a bad version of this but, again, it requires those memorable and believable recurring villains to work, and as for big threats they already overused super speed guys and don't have the budget for a full year of Grodd or anything really out there like giant aliens making Barry race across space.

It's also really disappointing we never got a full on alliance of Rogues with like 6+ of them loving up Flash and repeatedly breaking eachother out of prison and combing their abilities in new and threatening ways. That's another classic Flash thing but unfortunately with Cold and Heatwave getting cannibalized early on by Legends; killing off Boomerang; Mirror Master 1 and Top and Weather Wizard kind of being flops; and Trickster too Star Wars famous to make repeat appearances, they don't have much to work with here.

Mr Beens
Dec 2, 2006


Guy A. Person posted:

Burning through his classic villains certainly doesn't help, nor does that cable budget that keeps him from going on really insane inter-dimensional/time travel adventures.

Flash has always been in a weird place where he's simultaneously insanely powerful, like theoretically more powerful than Superman and effectively a time god, but also just a "dude who runs fast". I've always felt this works better in the comics where one of his villains getting in a lucky shot is easier to sell since you don't have to have Flash awkwardly standing around waiting to get hit.

But yeah the "monster of the week" format for Flash can be extremely limiting. His most memorable and fun stuff has him on some crazy adventure lost in time or else against power houses like Grodd or Kadabra or the various Zooms over the course of several issues, and always with the Rogues usually actively being a nuisance in the background. The "big threat in the background with little threats popping up" is not a bad version of this but, again, it requires those memorable and believable recurring villains to work, and as for big threats they already overused super speed guys and don't have the budget for a full year of Grodd or anything really out there like giant aliens making Barry race across space.

It's also really disappointing we never got a full on alliance of Rogues with like 6+ of them loving up Flash and repeatedly breaking eachother out of prison and combing their abilities in new and threatening ways. That's another classic Flash thing but unfortunately with Cold and Heatwave getting cannibalized early on by Legends; killing off Boomerang; Mirror Master 1 and Top and Weather Wizard kind of being flops; and Trickster too Star Wars famous to make repeat appearances, they don't have much to work with here.

I've pretty much given up on Flash being good again.
Your points about Flash in general have been in pretty much every seasons threads multiple times, usually around the mid point when we realise its just spinning its wheels for reasons and at the end after the anti climax

The Lord Bude
May 23, 2007

I'M DISAPPOINTED THAT CORTANA WILL BE A CIRCLE AND NOT THE ACTUAL SEXY WOMAN FROM THE GAME.


I think the new format of splitting each season into 2-3 arcs is an improvement.

Mooseontheloose
May 13, 2003
crazy people don't like me

I think you should all just follow Bellasario's maxim.

1) If it's interesting, fun, or cool it's a story.

pile of brown
Dec 31, 2004


Mooseontheloose posted:

I think you should all just follow Bellasario's maxim.

1) If it's interesting, fun, or cool it's a story.

Ok, but we're talking about The Flash

muscles like this!
Jan 17, 2005



Deadline is reporting that Tom Cavanagh and Carlos Valdes are leaving the show at the end of this season.

GreenNight
Feb 19, 2006
Turning the light on the darkest places, you and I know we got to face this now. We got to face this now.

Basically cancel the show at that point right? 3 characters in 2 seasons gone.

TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Pandamn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta


Grimey Drawer

muscles like this! posted:

Deadline is reporting that Tom Cavanagh and Carlos Valdes are leaving the show at the end of this season.

Kinda thought that Cavanagh was already gone but I'm not shocked. Kind of am surprised that Valdes is gone. Well, surprised that it's this season and not season 5 where it really looked like he was leaving. Still though, it did feel like they've been setting up Chester as backup Cisco for a while now.

GreenNight posted:

Basically cancel the show at that point right? 3 characters in 2 seasons gone.

No what are you talking about, Ralph's tooootally coming back, he had that completely organic and not awkward at all exit.

(I really hope they just cast a new Ralph)

bentacos
Oct 9, 2012


bring back ralph but he's played by a different actor every episode

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters



I dunno, this feels massively unconstitutional

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters



Okay, everything about that Frost plot SUUUUUUUUUUuuuuuccckkked

Barry and the Speedforce was pretty good actually.

The Lord Bude
May 23, 2007

I'M DISAPPOINTED THAT CORTANA WILL BE A CIRCLE AND NOT THE ACTUAL SEXY WOMAN FROM THE GAME.


The show is about the flash. As long as Grant Gustin is happy to stay I think the show can survive just fine. Itís been clear theyíve been faffing around with Cisco for a while and constantly finding reasons to write him out half the season. Iím not the hugest fan of Chester though, heís kinda annoying.

Xelkelvos
Dec 19, 2012


I would say the core characters are Barry, Joe and Iris. Everyone else is varying levels of necessary, but ultimately, it's the story of Barry and the Wests.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




Xelkelvos posted:

I would say the core characters are Barry, Joe and Iris. Everyone else is varying levels of necessary, but ultimately, it's the story of Barry and the Wests.

And even then, the show could probably limp on for another season or two without Joe. But if Grant Gustin or Candice Patton decide they're done with the show, then that's it, it's dead.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


Candice Patton sleeps through most of her scenes.

Nameless Pete
May 8, 2007

Get a load of those...

I think at this point I would rather be represented in court by Rudy Giuliani than Cecile Horton. If all they're trying to do is set a precedent, then you're just punting the issue to the next meta to get arrested.

Nameless Pete fucked around with this message at 07:33 on May 5, 2021

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007


The Lord Bude posted:

The show is about the flash. As long as Grant Gustin is happy to stay I think the show can survive just fine.
Not even he's necessary. There have already been several other Flashes. Super speed seems to be just about the most common metahuman power. Most seem to get wholly unique ones, but "speedster" isn't even just a category of metahuman, it's also possible to replicate the ability other ways as well. He's the most easily replaceable super hero.

Klungar
Feb 12, 2008

Klungo make bessst ever video game, 'Hero Klungo Sssavesss Teh World.'


Xelkelvos posted:

it's the story of Barry and the Wests.

Buh-buh-buh-

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters



Nameless Pete posted:

I think at this point I would rather be represented in court by Rudy Giuliani than Cecile Horton. If all they're trying to do is set a precedent, then you're just punting the issue to the next meta to get arrested.

Every time they try to do a law storyline the show comes across like Lionel Hutz is their legal advisor.

LongDarkNight
Oct 25, 2010

It's like watching the collapse of Western civilization in fast forward.

Oven Wrangler

howe_sam posted:

Okay, everything about that Frost plot SUUUUUUUUUUuuuuuccckkked

Snake eye guy out of nowhere.

A Fancy Hat
Nov 18, 2016

Always remember that the former President was dumber than the dumbest person you've ever met by a wide margin



I really enjoyed this episode, even if the trial felt like a Phoenix Wright game.

The meta cure stuff is crazy to me, though. They said they were going to make "hundreds" of vials? Are they planning to just run through Iron Heights and de-power everybody?

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


A Fancy Hat posted:

I really enjoyed this episode, even if the trial felt like a Phoenix Wright game.

The meta cure stuff is crazy to me, though. They said they were going to make "hundreds" of vials? Are they planning to just run through Iron Heights and de-power everybody?

If superhumans were real, and there was a chemical that would neutralize their abilities permanently you can bet your rear end it would be put into a projectile and kept on hand for any display if super powers.

Klungar
Feb 12, 2008

Klungo make bessst ever video game, 'Hero Klungo Sssavesss Teh World.'


Rhyno posted:

If superhumans were real, and there was a chemical that would neutralize their abilities permanently you can bet your rear end it would be put into a projectile and kept on hand for any display if super powers.

Wasnít this already the plot of X-Men 3?

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


Klungar posted:

Wasn’t this already the plot of X-Men 3?

Yup and you know it would happen in real life. There's no way people who can melt other people get to walk around freely melting people.

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TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Pandamn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta


Grimey Drawer

Yeah Frost's whole monologue really only works if there are mutants in the world. So I think like... just her? Literally everybody else in this show's cast wasn't "born" with powers like she says, they got them all when the particle accelerator exploded or via other accidents.

I think the only characters in the whole Arrowverse with naturally occurring powers are all the aliens on Supergirl and Black Lightning's kids.

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