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Mr. Mambold posted:This is retarded nonsense. Get rid of the entire American sports structure because hurr durr No, get rid of it because it is provably not working for MLS, and it only works it closed systems that do not have to compete with other leagues.
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Oct 12, 2017 15:52
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wicka posted:No, get rid of it because it is provably not working for MLS, and it only works it closed systems that do not have to compete with other leagues. It's only 22 years old league, wicka. Check the other U.S. professional leagues and how they did. Relegation is not the cure-all, and realistically, if MLS requires $100 mil buy-in, it'll never happen. American sports are far more socialistic and egalitarian via labor unions than anything in Europe. And the NBA does compete with Euro leagues for players- talent wise, there's no contest and no point in intra-league play oh god I'm arguing with wicka.
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Oct 12, 2017 16:03
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You can not compare the first 22 years of the other leagues in America, which were formed when the very concept of professional sports was new, to the MLS being 22 years old. That is horseshit
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Oct 12, 2017 16:06
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Panama went from minnows to World Cup in 20 years or so. Reminder that they used to be a baseball country where nobody cared about football. They didn’t even have a pro league until 1988 and it was only in 1996 that they actually had a FIFA recognized league. As I said before, American exceptionalism is part of the problem, people refuse to look at what has worked for other countries because “America is sooo different”.
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Oct 12, 2017 16:13
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Mr. Mambold posted:It's only 22 years old league, wicka. Check the other U.S. professional leagues and how they did. Relegation is not the cure-all, and realistically, if MLS requires $100 mil buy-in, it'll never happen. American sports are far more socialistic and egalitarian via labor unions than anything in Europe. And the NBA does compete with Euro leagues for players- talent wise, there's no contest and no point in intra-league play oh god I'm arguing with wicka. You're not arguing with wicka, you are arguing with reality. MLS is not working and it's obvious for all to see. And the comparisons you're making are quite clearly inaccurate, on literally every single possible count. There's an MLS-specific thread if you'd like to peddle your ignorance to people who care. Mr. Mambold posted:Relegation is not the cure-all, and realistically, if MLS requires $100 mil buy-in, it'll never happen. Yeah, MLS SHOULDN'T REQUIRE A $100M BUY-IN, loving duh. Simone Poodoin posted:Panama went from minnows to World Cup in 20 years or so. Reminder that they used to be a baseball country where nobody cared about football. They didn’t even have a pro league until 1988 and it was only in 1996 that they actually had a FIFA recognized league. As I said before, American exceptionalism is part of the problem, people refuse to look at what has worked for other countries because “America is sooo different”. I printed off a thousand copies of this post and wallpapered my home with it.
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Oct 12, 2017 16:14
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This thread is a pro read for non Americans lol
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Oct 12, 2017 16:24
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I sincerely apologize for immediately hammering this poor thread with a bunch of VERY on-brand posts, but for a brief moment it was thrilling to be posting about all the obviously dumb things about US soccer with people who understood.
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Oct 12, 2017 16:27
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wicka posted:I sincerely apologize for immediately hammering this poor thread with a bunch of VERY on-brand posts, but for a brief moment it was thrilling to be posting about all the obviously dumb things about US soccer with people who understood. I'm actually finding it very interesting. Please continue.
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Oct 12, 2017 16:30
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Manc Hill posted:even Scotland would piss concacaf qualifying 😂 Lol no, they would finish last
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Oct 12, 2017 16:34
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I think the U.S. could do pro/rel in the same way Mexico does. Liga MX is basically the scummiest poo poo and the promotion relegation thing is insanely stacked to the benefit of established popular teams. It's designed to keep you up even if you have a couple bad seasons. It's basically the group of money making teams and then a rotating cast of second string clubs. Breaking into that group of established clubs is a nightmare and falling out of it is even harder. Plenty of Mexican teams have gone on multi year meltdowns and stayed in the first division thanks to that garbage. Give the poo poo bag owners some security over their dumbass investment if that is what it takes but for fucks sake stop letting DC United continue to exist. There has to be some consequences for running your club like complete rear end for a goddman decade. Edit: in case you didn't know only one team is promoted relegated each year and it takes 3 years of bad results, that's six "seasons" to get relegated. Newly promoted teams only get two "seasons" worth of points to compare with the big boys. It's super dumb but it keeps Mexican scumbag owners happy because it's going to take a lot of really consistent loving up to get relegated. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 17:10
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The American playoff/conference/draft system works fine for the NFL and NBA. Baseball’s the only outlier because of their immense feeder system (NBA has two sources of players that can’t really be used in pro/reg) but that’s used well instead of what MLS does. Wicka is pretty much spot on. Promote the Open Cup, get rid of the draft, and put in pro/reg. I’m a Rapids fan, but we should’ve been relegated years ago.
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Oct 12, 2017 17:18
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I still don't really understand how adding Pro/Rel makes things any different, it just means that instead of MLS playing in half empty 20,000 seater soccer stadiums they play in half empty High School football stadiums. Like I understand the concept in England and Spain and Germany etc. because there are actual legitimate second division teams that are worth a drat... there's like 3 in the entire US that aren't half assed. Unless the argument is that Pro/Rel would make those half rear end teams spend more money to chase promotion? I kind of disagree with the US needs to have 20 teams in a single table, there are like ~330 million Americans spread across half a continent, that would be like saying we need to form a European Super league of 20 teams? Feels Villeneuve posted:so here's a legitimate question: what's the most successful example of a european-style (pro/rel, single table, etc) league in a country where football isn't the most popular sport? J-League? Probably, maybe South Korea? Feels Villeneuve posted:hink a western/eastern league could work as long as both leagues are single table and they don't play each other until the final, like how baseball used to work before Interleague. I think that is the more sensible option for MLS, keep growing cover more decent cities and then cut into two regional D1 leagues of ~20(ish) teams that only play against one another come MLS CUP time and try to resist the urge for inter-league play. The two sides can meet in the US Open Cup during the regular season instead as the alternative. FartingBedpost posted:The American playoff/conference/draft system works fine for the NFL and NBA. Baseball’s the only outlier because of their immense feeder system (NBA has two sources of players that can’t really be used in pro/reg) but that’s used well instead of what MLS does. Wicka is pretty much spot on. Promote the Open Cup, get rid of the draft, and put in pro/reg. I think people over-estimate how much finishing last and getting draft picks helps in MLS, like maybe 3-5 players in the draft will turn into ~good mls players~ most will faff about the league on the bench for a year or two before they get real jobs or continue to chase the dream in USL/NASL never to return. I think the best thing about the last few seasons in MLS is all the fraud coaches getting fired. Yallop, Kinnear, Sigi, Arena, Heaps, Maestroeni, etc. are all gone and the coaches seem to be getting a little better. Unlike the years before the teams at least to me look like they are playing better and lovely MLS journeymen even if they still are in their 20's who were starters back in 2014 are now bench players or out of the league entirely. I do agree though that the league is in a weird place, I think there are probably about a 3-4 teams that are sabotaging the league from actually getting betterand we probably would be better off once Kroenke, Kraft and whoever the gently caress owns DC United fucks off. Simone Poodoin posted:Panama went from minnows to World Cup in 20 years or so. Reminder that they used to be a baseball country where nobody cared about football. They didn’t even have a pro league until 1988 and it was only in 1996 that they actually had a FIFA recognized league. As I said before, American exceptionalism is part of the problem, people refuse to look at what has worked for other countries because “America is sooo different”. Isn't this also Panama's "Golden Generation" of players, like I think their team is old as gently caress? I swear guys like Blas Perez have been their starting forward for like 20 years at this point.
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Oct 12, 2017 18:15
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Jack2142 posted:I still don't really understand how adding Pro/Rel makes things any different, it just means that instead of MLS playing in half empty 20,000 seater soccer stadiums they play in half empty High School football stadiums. Like I understand the concept in England and Spain and Germany etc. because there are actual legitimate second division teams that are worth a drat... there's like 3 in the entire US that aren't half assed. Unless the argument is that Pro/Rel would make those half rear end teams spend more money to chase promotion? That's why I'm saying that Brazil's model might work for the US. Being a really huge country is one of the few legitimate arguments where the US is actually exceptional with regards to soccer. Of course second division teams worth a drat won't appear from nowhere, they might not appear at all (see the rest of CONCACAF), but the actual stakes and actual risks make the clubs be run in a different way that leads to at least trying to improve. I insist, don't look toward Germany or England as examples yet, look at this side of the world because soccer-wise the US is a thrid world country like the rest of us. Don't look at Mexico though because Liga MX is working towards being more like MLS every year and that's gonna be a hilarious disaster. Jack2142 posted:Isn't this also Panama's "Golden Generation" of players, like I think their team is old as gently caress? I swear guys like Blas Perez have been their starting forward for like 20 years at this point. It is, and it's remarkable that they created it in such a relatively short timespan. The creation of their pro league in the 90s was specifically focused on improving the national team and it has worked really well. Simone Poodoin fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 18:20
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the idea behind pro/rel is to make sure there is a financial incentive to not perform badly, rather than the US system where awful teams, as long as attendance is fine, make just as much money and are actually rewarded by high draft picks (though the MLS draft is so bad that idk if that really matters here)
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Oct 12, 2017 18:26
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Draft picks are not a reward in MLS like they are in other American leagues. The best college player is still a turd compared to most MLS starters even. The only draft worth a poo poo is the expansion one where a new team can take some good players from other teams.
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Oct 12, 2017 18:32
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Yeah it's not that MLS teams are poo poo because they are rewarded for doing badly, it's because they have to be insanely terrible in every way before they get seriously punished for it, and when they do get punished it's by the league getting rid of the team so it's not like they can recover from it.
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Oct 12, 2017 18:40
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Make the MLS a 20-team round robin, home-away season. One team gets relegated every year. End the salary cap, end expansion fees, end the draft, invest in proper academies. Make D2 eight separate regional leagues, cut that season short towards the end for an eight-team knockout tournament between the regional winners for the promotion spot. That'll reduce travel costs and get some regional rivalries established for the teams that need attendance help if they're poo poo.
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Oct 12, 2017 18:44
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My hot take is that the US system is set up to keep the illusion that the US is in the soccer elite. De-emphasizing any international competition where the US may look bad (Copa America, CONCACAF champions league, etc), setting up a league structure where American "stars" get overpaid to show up semi-pro players (Michael Bradley and Jozy Altidore would never make what they make in any other league), etc. Maybe after this fiasco things will change.
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Oct 12, 2017 18:54
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my argument for promotion/relegation is that the fear of embarrassment is precisely what's lacking in American players within the national setup. they're mentally weak and need the fear of a drop at the back of their minds.
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Oct 12, 2017 19:04
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The USL is good enough to be a second division now. Get rid of all the "Red Bull II" teams and do it.
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Oct 12, 2017 19:10
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Jack2142 posted:I still don't really understand how adding Pro/Rel makes things any different, it just means that instead of MLS playing in half empty 20,000 seater soccer stadiums they play in half empty High School football stadiums. Like I understand the concept in England and Spain and Germany etc. because there are actual legitimate second division teams that are worth a drat... there's like 3 in the entire US that aren't half assed. Unless the argument is that Pro/Rel would make those half rear end teams spend more money to chase promotion? I still don't really understand why people insist on pretending that any argument in favor of pro/rel includes "let's implement pro/rel literally tomorrow and see what happens." It's a long-term goal that requires a large amount of work, the bulk of which would entail funding and support the second division until the day comes that those clubs are stable enough to be promotion candidates. Simply saying "in the future, second division teams can be directly promoted to MLS" would go a loooooooooong way towards them establishing dedicated fanbases, which is really the #1 obstacle to them being financially stable at present. Most cities don't give a gently caress about their NASL and USL teams for the same reason that AAA clubs don't sell out 40,000 seat stadiums: no one cares about permanent minor league teams.
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Oct 12, 2017 19:21
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IMO setting up USL/NASL/whatever the hell as a functional second division is a reasonable 5-year goal. Getting a ladder for amateur teams to get there will take longer.
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Oct 12, 2017 19:23
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Maybe a bunch of players over the age of 30 who have returned to the MLS from Europe for a pay day and last few seasons should not be the players on the national team. The U.S. has a generation gap and Arena took that even further by leaning on just about the oldest squad he could. I guess there are many things you can criticize about the MLS structure but really the majority of the national team should not be playing in MLS anyway. The better question is why the U.S. is producing so few technically skilled young prospects that there are less Americans playing in top flight European leagues than a decade ago. By the time MLS gets players, they're usually in their 20s,so changing the MLS structure with things like promotion/rel, single table, etc really is not going to impact that. MLS teams have invested in academies, US soccer has seen investment, theres all kinds of money floating around youth development in U.S. soccer. I think U.S. soccer focus is way too much around the national team's results and MLS structure and less around why, after a couple of decades of investment, massive increases in scouting, tons more players playing professionally, all kinds of different youth development avenues--- the U.S. isn't producing young players who show even a glimpse of the technical skills or potential to go beyond squad player on a midtable European club. Pulisic seems promising-- why aren't there dozens of other skilled teenage Americans, some of which will fizzle, some of which won't?
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Oct 12, 2017 19:49
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Because the MLS academies are garbage and pay-to-play youth soccer is a lovely way of producing large numbers of skillful and highly motivated players
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Oct 12, 2017 20:03
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skasion posted:Because the MLS academies are garbage and pay-to-play youth soccer is a lovely way of producing large numbers of skillful and highly motivated players and NCAA is obviously atrocious. I mean I know why, I played in it growing up.But Bogan Krkic posted about it twice on the first page. There aren't any good American players right now, except Pulisic, who basically scored or created all the qualifying goals. Changing to a single table, coaching at the national team level, etc isn't going to fix that. MLS improvement in youth development can definitely be part of fixing that, and it does seem like thats begun to head in the right direction but way too slowly. of the squad against T&T 4 played soccer at the NCAA level and didn't turn professional until 21 or older. Thats absurd
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Oct 12, 2017 20:15
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I feel like playoffs are fine and promotion/relegation isn't that big of a deal right now. Main issues seem to be terrible transfer rules that hurt teams who develop talent. A draft that makes zero sense since you have competition from leagues around the world. And a salary cap and rules on how much you can allocate transfer fees to which ensures that no team ever becomes good. MLS is setup to punish success. Why would anyone give a poo poo about a league that doesn't care about competing?
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Oct 12, 2017 20:23
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ITT mls fans apologize for their all stars performance and don’t see anything wrong with mls.
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Oct 12, 2017 20:38
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Jack2142 posted:I still don't really understand how adding Pro/Rel makes things any different, it just means that instead of MLS playing in half empty 20,000 seater soccer stadiums they play in half empty High School football stadiums. Like I understand the concept in England and Spain and Germany etc. because there are actual legitimate second division teams that are worth a drat... there's like 3 in the entire US that aren't half assed. Unless the argument is that Pro/Rel would make those half rear end teams spend more money to chase promotion? The draft isn’t bad because they help worse teams in MLS. It’s bad because it has no real place in MLS. It works in the NFL because there’s a huge pool of talented players and psuedo-talented players, and owners and coaches make mistakes or succeed in picking undervalued players. The Seahawks are a positive story of how the draft works. NBA sorta works, but there’s issues in it. MLS draft doesn’t work because most of the players you’re drafting suck anyways. Pro/Reg would eventually be great so that teams like Cincinnati and Indy have a chance at MLS, instead of watching NE or DC flounder again. The true issue (which everyone has said at this point) is the poor state of youth soccer. NCAA works for NFL and barely NBA, but they put in skill work from a very young age. By the point kids are in college, they lack the skills to be great at Soccer. A way that could work is imitating AAU programs in basketball. Don’t they give scholarships and sponsorships out to poorer kids? Right now MLS is trying to imitate the NFL, which is idiotic, because football has heavy roots in this country, and has the pool of young players that makes it’s system at least viable. And we have a bunch of different systems in place for 8-10 year olds to build skills at a decent price, unlike soccer’s 1000 dollar and up price tag.
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Oct 12, 2017 20:38
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Runs wheezing into the thread. Guys, how do we convince Pulisic to move to Orlando?
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Oct 12, 2017 20:41
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Pro/rel is good because it is the path towards stabilizing the lower division(s), which is how you end up with a country covered in professional soccer clubs of all shapes and sizes, and that's also how you end up with a country covered in  competent youth academies
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Oct 12, 2017 20:43
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wicka posted:Pro/rel is good because it is the path towards stabilizing the lower division(s), which is how you end up with a country covered in professional soccer clubs of all shapes and sizes, and that's also how you end up with a country covered in So much  clubs should develop players. You punish them by relegating them. You incentivize them by paying them money. It isn’t hard. Of course again this is still dependent on a goal of domestic talent representing the US on the international stage. Which is not going to ever be feasible with current mls structures.Edit: I don’t know if that should even be a ten year goal for us Soccer. The short term goal should be pushing people out of our disastrous youth system as quickly as possible. Family wealth be damned, if a player is competent ship them to Germany, England, Portugal
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Oct 12, 2017 20:48
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Dirk Pitt posted:Edit: I don’t know if that should even be a ten year goal for us Soccer. The short term goal should be pushing people out of our disastrous youth system as quickly as possible. Family wealth be damned, if a player is competent ship them to Germany, England, Portugal
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Oct 12, 2017 21:11
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The problem is that growing slowly in the wrong direction is at best pointless and at worst harmful to the USMNT
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Oct 12, 2017 21:20
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv4SpjMinlQ this is why you don't deserve to go to a world cup ever again gently caress the MLS and gently caress US soccer forever
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Oct 12, 2017 21:26
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Weaponized Cum posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv4SpjMinlQ
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Oct 12, 2017 21:29
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Weaponized Cum posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv4SpjMinlQ hard to argue with this.
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Oct 12, 2017 21:54
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Weaponized Cum posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv4SpjMinlQ The man's right, shut it all down
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Oct 12, 2017 21:57
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wicka posted:The man's right, shut it all down
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Oct 12, 2017 22:08
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Simone Poodoin posted:The problem is that growing slowly in the wrong direction is at best pointless and at worst harmful to the USMNT that isn't happening, though
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Oct 12, 2017 22:10
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G-Hawk posted:that isn't happening, though It's quite literally exactly what's happening.
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Oct 12, 2017 22:12
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