Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
viral spiral
Sep 19, 2017

by R. Guyovich
...that school principal definitely needed to be fired, dude. He'll probably show up in S2 raping children or some poo poo. Holden saw him leave the supermarket towards the end of the show; I definitely don't think we have seen the last of him.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

joepinetree
Apr 5, 2012

viral spiral posted:

...that school principal definitely needed to be fired, dude. He'll probably show up in S2 raping children or some poo poo. Holden saw him leave the supermarket towards the end of the show; I definitely don't think we have seen the last of him.

The point isn't whether he needed to be fired. The point is Holden's confidence in recommending so.

And I am pretty sure that, if we see him again, it's not to show that Holden was right (though Fincher has already said that next season will focus on the Atlanta child murders, a case where it was solved by means that had nothing to do with profiling, and are only related because in the book version of Mindhunter it claims that the person arrested for it didn't commit all the murders)
The entire second half of the season is essentially making GBS threads on Holden. Carr spends the entire second half talking about how what he is doing isn't scientific and worthless as forming a predictive model. Debbie spends the entire second half of the season poking holes in his overconfidence and pointing out that he was working backwards from a conclusion. All frequently punctuated by scenes with perhaps the most notorious example of a failure of profiling, which was the BTK case. And then, just in case the viewer didn't get the message, the last scene is Kemper loving with Holden just to make a point to Holden that Holden couldn't explain even his own actions.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003
I'm a parasitic landlord that needs to get a job instead of stealing worker's money. Make sure to remind me when I post.
Soiled Meat
I have a good movie recommendation for you guys. It's the movie that I think inspired Fincher to make Zodiac into a movie, and seems very relevant to the profiling in Mindhunter.

It's on YouTube for free thanks to Viewster:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26iYo7Vwp4E

Edit: also if you're the kind of person who notices camera movement and blocking in Fincher movies, (or even Edgar Wright movies) pay attention to this one

Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Nov 18, 2017

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

I just caught up on the entire show in a day, which is unusual for me. Just found the whole thing really compelling and really dug the 70s setting. I particularly liked Tench's frequent asides pointing out the importance/strength of regular investigation and chiding Holden for dismissing local cops and their methods.

Can somebody explain the significance of the cat scenes in the laundry though? Best I could figure was that it was supposed to in some way represent that the Doctor thought she was building up to achieving something with her study only to see her expectations subverted by forces she couldn't control (i.e Holden bypassing her rigorous structures/the DAs not understanding her arguments or being more concerned with public perception etc)?

Also gently caress that principal, even if what he was doing was completely innocent and non-sexual it was completely inappropriate. ESPECIALLY after parents got involved and told him not to do it with their children and he completely ignored/overrode them. Yeah Holden's perceptions were colored by the people he was interviewing and he was making a lot of assumptions and then filling in the gaps (as Debbie warned him later) but what the guy was doing was still wrong.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014


Big Bidness posted:

You're not wrong about John Douglas, but Malcolm Gladwell is also often full of poo poo.

It's pretty hilarious reading John Douglas defending Karla Hmolka in one of his first books. He paints her as an absolute victim, with no shred of doubt that her husband brainwashed her into covering up his crimes through fear and abuse.

After he wrote that profile, a video tape was found that showed that Karla was not only an active participant in the torture and murders her and Paul Bernardo committed, she was probably the dominant personality. Whoops.

it's kinda dumb you can't renege on a deal if new evidence comes to light showing one side was full of poo poo.

MightyJoe36
Dec 29, 2013

:minnie: Cat Army :minnie:

joepinetree posted:

The way that I interpreted the second half of the show was that they were essentially showing that profiling is non-scientific and very dangerous in the hands of overconfident people. Both Dr. Carr and Holden's girlfriend go out of their way to argue that what he is doing is not scientific and has no predictive value. His girlfriend correctly points out that in the Georgia case he was working backwards from a conclusion.

And even Tench says at one point "What we're really doing is just good, old-fashioned police work."

Perestroika
Apr 8, 2010

Jerusalem posted:

Can somebody explain the significance of the cat scenes in the laundry though? Best I could figure was that it was supposed to in some way represent that the Doctor thought she was building up to achieving something with her study only to see her expectations subverted by forces she couldn't control (i.e Holden bypassing her rigorous structures/the DAs not understanding her arguments or being more concerned with public perception etc)?

They made the point a few times that serial killers often start out by torturing and killing animals. So you could also see the implication that there might be a budding serial killer right there in her vicinity, and the cat was one of his victims.

Giant Tourtiere
Aug 4, 2006

TRICHER
POUR
GAGNER
I thought the thing with the cat was just part of showing how Wendy becomes fairly rapidly disillusioned with her FBI work. She comes down, thinking that she's going to be doing important work with scientific and academic value, with this unexpectedly huge budget. She'll be working with like-minded professionals who respect her. There's even an (assumedly) adorable cat to charm in the laundry room.

But the agents refuse to use her methodology, the director makes her do his dirty work, and increasingly her colleagues are taking the project in directions that have no scientific merit and doing things she finds unethical. And then instead of an adorable cat friend, she has a horrible can full of ants.

I thought it was really effective.

TheBizzness
Oct 5, 2004

Reign on me.

evenworse username posted:

I thought the thing with the cat was just part of showing how Wendy becomes fairly rapidly disillusioned with her FBI work. She comes down, thinking that she's going to be doing important work with scientific and academic value, with this unexpectedly huge budget. She'll be working with like-minded professionals who respect her. There's even an (assumedly) adorable cat to charm in the laundry room.

But the agents refuse to use her methodology, the director makes her do his dirty work, and increasingly her colleagues are taking the project in directions that have no scientific merit and doing things she finds unethical. And then instead of an adorable cat friend, she has a horrible can full of ants.

I thought it was really effective.

Yeah this makes a lot of sense.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003
I'm a parasitic landlord that needs to get a job instead of stealing worker's money. Make sure to remind me when I post.
Soiled Meat
The cat can represent more than one thing.

Mike N Eich
Jan 27, 2007

This might just be the year
Just watched the first two episodes - the post from the first page about how the pilot really doesn't get into the meat of what makes this show work is right on. The Kemper interview scenes were so far and ahead the most entertaining and chilling parts of the show. I almost can't believe I've never heard of this guy before the show, his whole story is wild and he's actually still alive.

Excited for the rest of the series.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Steve Yun posted:

The cat can represent more than one thing.

We're also unsure of whether the cat is alive or dead, so clearly it's a physics reference.

Bloody Hedgehog
Dec 12, 2003

💥💥🤯💥💥
Gotta nuke something
I'm sure if we all put our heads together, we can solve the mystery of Wendys pussy.

Jose
Jul 24, 2007

Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

Groovelord Neato posted:

it's kinda dumb you can't renege on a deal if new evidence comes to light showing one side was full of poo poo.

Plea deals are dumb anyway. In the UK if you plead guilty you get about 1/3 your sentence knocked off but that's it

viral spiral
Sep 19, 2017

by R. Guyovich

Bloody Hedgehog posted:

I'm sure if we all put our heads together, we can solve the mystery of Wendys pussy.

That mystery was solved at the University.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




Bloody Hedgehog posted:

I'm sure if we all put our heads together, we can solve the mystery of Wendys pussy.

Lena Olin holds the answer.

Dmitri-9
Nov 30, 2004

There's something really sexy about Scrooge McDuck. I love Uncle Scrooge.

Jose posted:

Plea deals are dumb anyway. In the UK if you plead guilty you get about 1/3 your sentence knocked off but that's it

If you don't plead down they vindictively seek the maximum. You plea because they will knock off time for making their lives easier.

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames
If you're innocent, never take the deal.

I got popped for DUI, long story short I was absolutely innocent and the cop was a scumfuck, and my public defender kept coming to me with deals from the DA and I just said nope, I'll go to trial. Eventually they dropped the charges completely.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014


a lot of innocent (black or poor or both) people go to jail by taking deals cuz they don't wanna take the chance of being convicted and going away for much longer.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006

https://mobile.twitter.com/netw3rk/status/933018914245640192

You may not get the NBA jokes but this guy's Kemper impression is great

BigDave
Jul 14, 2009

Taste the High Country
Finished the series last week, overall loved it but a few things bugged me.

- What the hell kind of name is Holden?

- The tickleing principal thing was dumb. People were practically screaming in his ear 'STOP TICKLEING KIDS YOU DUMB gently caress!' and he flat out refuses each time. And his wife blames the FBI for his getting fired?

- The scene with Dr. Carr and Holden at the bar felt really forced.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

BigDave posted:

- What the hell kind of name is Holden?

Maybe his parents were big J.D Salinger fans and his form of rebellion was to become a buttoned down, suit wearing CIA man v:shobon:v?

BigDave
Jul 14, 2009

Taste the High Country

Jerusalem posted:

Maybe his parents were big J.D Salinger fans and his form of rebellion was to become a buttoned down, suit wearing CIA man v:shobon:v?

Or they could see the future and wanted him to confuse hippies.

"Dude, are you holdin'?"
"Yes I am, nice to meet you."

Mu Zeta
Oct 17, 2002

Me crush ass to dust

Finished the series and enjoyed it a lot. But the Holden actor is a lovely version of Will Graham/Hugh Dancey who does the "just on the edge" thing more convincingly.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006

Renewed for season 2.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
I thought it got two seasons right off the bat?

stev
Jan 22, 2013

Please be excited.



Escobarbarian posted:

I thought it got two seasons right off the bat?

Yeah I'm confused - news sites are talking like this is a new announcement but I remember those same sites making a big deal about the fact it was renewed before the premier.

Maybe the definitely-double-dip-dog renewed it for suresies?

Hilario Baldness
Feb 10, 2005

:buddy:



Grimey Drawer

Escobarbarian posted:

I thought it got two seasons right off the bat?

I thought it happened after they got done filming.

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013

Steve2911 posted:

Yeah I'm confused - news sites are talking like this is a new announcement but I remember those same sites making a big deal about the fact it was renewed before the premier.

Maybe the definitely-double-dip-dog renewed it for suresies?

Yeah, this isn't the first time a pop culture site has gotten excited about a show being renewed months after its announcement. Happened with Chance, IIRC.

Watermelon Daiquiri
Jul 10, 2010
I TRIED TO BAIT THE TXPOL THREAD WITH THE WORLD'S WORST POSSIBLE TAKE AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS STUPID AVATAR.
Surely someone else caught that weird edit in the last episode in the atlanta airport. It cut from the shot including the easter air lines sign to it being zoomed in again and revealing it again. I blinked right at that exact moment so it was more wtf than it ought to be lol.

CountFosco
Jan 9, 2012

Welcome back to the Liturgigoon thread, friend.

joepinetree posted:

I don't think that the BTK would necessarily be part of a second season. The way that I interpreted the second half of the show was that they were essentially showing that profiling is non-scientific and very dangerous in the hands of overconfident people. Both Dr. Carr and Holden's girlfriend go out of their way to argue that what he is doing is not scientific and has no predictive value. His girlfriend correctly points out that in the Georgia case he was working backwards from a conclusion. The BTK reference, to me at least, seems to be there just to really drive home the point that profiling isn't what its cracked up to be. After all, the BTK case is perhaps the most egregious example of the failures of profiling. There may have been cases where the profilers were "more" wrong, such as in the beltway sniper case. But the BTK case is remarkable in that there were several profiles done, and ultimately all of them were wrong.

This show isn't the story of a detective becoming Sherlock Holmes. It's the story of a detective destroying people's lives (such as the school principal) because he thinks he is Sherlock Holmes.

That principle was absolutely out of line. They gave him opportunity after opportunity to cut the poo poo and he wouldn't take it. The face that he refused to cease the behavior, despite the warning, demonstrates that the behavior had a powerful importance to him. That principal made his own choices and now he has to live with them. That is the most justifiable thing he did.

joepinetree
Apr 5, 2012

CountFosco posted:

That principle was absolutely out of line. They gave him opportunity after opportunity to cut the poo poo and he wouldn't take it. The face that he refused to cease the behavior, despite the warning, demonstrates that the behavior had a powerful importance to him. That principal made his own choices and now he has to live with them. That is the most justifiable thing he did.

Did you keep reading the thread, to the point where I specifically addressed this? Where did you get anything about the principal not being out of line?

Again, the point isn't whether that principal deserved to be fired (which the show makes clear that the board was already leaning towards). The point is Holden feeling so completely certain of his "method" that he was willing to make a recommendation as an FBI agent despite the fact that a) his research never dealt with that scenario, b) everyone around him told him not to get involved. The point there isn't Holden justifiably getting a principal fired. It's Holden branding the guy a likely future serial killer.

Spatula City
Oct 21, 2010

LET ME EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING
six episodes in, this show is way better than I expected. It's differently paced than a lot of other shows, and definitely could not have worked as a regularly airing TV show, the way it's written and edited. It's textured.
I'm not usually a fan of serial killer-related stuff, but this show manages to take the salacious, lurid aspects out, and dig into the psychology of both killers and the people who try to understand and catch them. Some people aren't a fan of Groff's performance as Holden Ford, but I think he walks a delicate line between genuinely nice, idealistic agent and potential psychopath. and Holt McCallany is just fabulous. Tench comes across as an rear end in a top hat at first, but he's got a lot of heart, and he's more grounded and doesn't lose sight of what these fuckers they interview have done.
I also like how it's a period piece, but it doesn't feel like a weird time capsule. Like HEY GUYS THIS IS THE 70'S. the only aspect that betrays that is some of the musical choices. It could do with less popular music from that era, or at least less obvious choices than Baker Street and Psycho Killer.

also Anna Torv.... :3:

pigdog
Apr 23, 2004

by Smythe
Just watched the first episode. I really quite like it so far BUT

the opening credits are the most irritating thing I have ever seen and not in a good way.

Let me marvel at the beautiful tape recorder in peace and quiet goddammit. :supaburn:

MightyJoe36
Dec 29, 2013

:minnie: Cat Army :minnie:

pigdog posted:

Just watched the first episode. I really quite like it so far BUT

the opening credits are the most irritating thing I have ever seen and not in a good way.

Skip intro.

Digital Jedi
May 28, 2007

Fallen Rib
Some news

http://www.indiewire.com/2018/04/mindhunter-season-2-directors-david-fincher-andrew-dominik-1201954817/

Finch is back to direct the season 2 premiere and finale
Andrew Dominik and Carl Franklin will also be directing
Season 2 will only be 8 episodes long, 2 less then the 1st
Season 2 will deal with the Atlanta Child Murders

whatever7
Jul 26, 2001

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN
Just saw this series, I was not aware the crime of Richard Speck until this show. His wiki article mess me good.

The rest of the serial killers, I was kind of "gotten used to" them thanks to overexposure to detective novel series like Bosch.

Question for true crime readers, do you think traditional serial killer is no longer as trendy in America? Do you think they have moved to planned public act of terrorist killing/shooting? Or do you know we still have as many serial killers secretly running around and killing people in the night but they just don't get as much media attention anymore?

Henchman of Santa
Aug 21, 2010

whatever7 posted:

Just saw this series, I was not aware the crime of Richard Speck until this show. His wiki article mess me good.

The rest of the serial killers, I was kind of "gotten used to" them thanks to overexposure to detective novel series like Bosch.

Question for true crime readers, do you think traditional serial killer is no longer as trendy in America? Do you think they have moved to planned public act of terrorist killing/shooting? Or do you know we still have as many serial killers secretly running around and killing people in the night but they just don't get as much media attention anymore?

I don’t read true crime but yes, pretty much every well known serial killer has been in prison or dead since the 80s. We’re much more worried about the next mass shooting, because it’s way more justifiable to keep your kids from being out at night than it is to keep them out of school (not that mass shootings only happen to schools). We also can have debates about laws that prevent mass shootings much more easily than ways to prevent serial killings.

Television is definitely getting back into the serial killer game with shows like this, the canceled Manson show and the latest American Crime Story, but again all of those are all about killings that are at least 20 years old.

Anne Whateley
Feb 11, 2007
:unsmith: i like nice words
I don't know if there are as many as there used to be, but there are definitely recent/ongoing serial killers
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island_serial_killer
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pickton
There's a time lag in famousness because A, it takes awhile just to put the pieces together and realize it is a serial killer instead of "normal" homicides or missing people, and B, the "lower-key" ones usually become well-known after identification and arrest, which takes awhile, if ever. Like before the EARONS book (itself only coincidentally famous), 99% of people outside of the area had never even heard of this guy even though he'd raped 50+ people and killed 12+.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/11/27/the-serial-killer-detector/amp

quote:

The F.B.I. believes that less than one per cent of the killings each year are carried out by serial killers, but Hargrove thinks that the percentage is higher, and that there are probably around two thousand serial killers at large in the U.S. “How do I know?” he said. “A few years ago, I got some people at the F.B.I. to run the question of how many murders in their records are unsolved but have been linked through DNA.” The answer was about fourteen hundred, slightly more than two per cent of the murders in the files they consulted. “Those are just the cases they were able to lock down with DNA,” Hargrove said. “And killers don’t always leave DNA—it’s a gift when you get it. So two per cent is a floor, not a ceiling.”

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Henchman of Santa
Aug 21, 2010
Also nobody reads newspapers anymore and there are too many media outlets so it’s harder to leave taunting messages

  • Locked thread