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Strangely, this two parter felt completely boring but also completely rushed. There’s clearly half a seasons worth of character development that’s supposed to take place that are crammed into these two. “My father is a great symbol.” “My father is free. But now my past is coming back to haunt me.” “Everyone hates me for my past.” “Everyone is now mostly over it.” “You deserve this sword.” “Keep it.” “No, take it.” “Okay.” “What about my father again?” I just kinda hope this was to wrap up all the mandalore stuff quickly so they can move on to more Rebellion stuff.
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Oct 18, 2017 04:26
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DancinBrud posted:Did Saw's ruthless tactics actually help him get the info, though? Or did they just put a roadblock in the way of actually being able to use the information effectively? So far, they seem to be hinting heavily that Saw is the source of the leadership's intel in Rogue One that the Empire is working on something. And this last episode seems to be the evidence that turns Saw's rumors and whispers into something that is actually a thing. The alliance doesn't even get word of what the Death Star is until after Jedha.
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Oct 27, 2017 22:00
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NTRabbit posted:Maybe Kasdan is past it then, or maybe he was only a minor contributor or had nothing to do with the overall plot, because the story in TLJ was pretty bad. "This guy, who didn't write something I liked but maybe did once or twice, must be too old and dumb to write good things." quote:He completely ruined Star Trek with two dire outings before getting the Star Wars job from Disney. Also just checked his TV resume, didn't see anything I liked that he directed or created there. "This guy, who doesn't do things I like, must be a hack and awful."
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Dec 27, 2017 19:39
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TheCenturion posted:And this is the other problem; ISTR that all of these questions are answered to some extent in the tie-in novels, like 'Road to TFA.' But a simple scene, or even an extra sentence in the opening crawl, would have fixed this. 'The REPUBLIC SENATE tries to appease SUPREME LEADER SNOKE, and refuses to defend remove worlds in the OUTER RIM. SENATOR LEIA ORGANA, frustrated with the SENATE's timidity, forms the RESISTANCE....' This problem of the galactic situation being extremely muddled and lacking defined lines/terms in TFA is a big reason why Snoke falls so flat in TLJ. That TLJ discards his character is the best choice among bad choices. Who's the more important character to focus time on (especially in an already overstuffed movie): Snoke or Ren? But is that TLJ's fault for getting stuck with a poorly defined setup from TFA or should they have continued an ill-defined arc for a side character?
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Dec 28, 2017 15:27
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Yeah, part of the reason why Snoke feels so cut off at the knees as a character is because our expectations are based on the Emperor and his arc. TLJ is all about undercutting those expectations which is why, I think, it'll be viewed better by fans after repeat viewings.
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Dec 28, 2017 16:46
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TheCenturion posted:Nah, I disagree. In TFA, he's set up as an active military leader, Kylo is constantly hounding him or announcing his intention to hound him for advice and training, and he's micromanaging poo poo. He was absolutely set up to be a major, recurring, Emperor-like character. Again, I agree that Rian made the best of a bad situation, working with what he was handed. But the fact that JJ is doing IX fills me with worry about how he's going to follow up TLJ. Luke might just come back from the dead! He's absolutely a background character. A background character with lines and certainly atop the hierarchy of the First Order but one who is only presented as Kylo's master and shadowy head of the First Order. Tarkin is more of a main character in ANH than Snoke is in TFA. That his arc is only to serve as a stepping stone for getting Kylo atop the First Order seems out of place only because we expect his arc to follow the Emperor's. Since it doesn't, it seems at first incongruent with our expectations. But looking at his place now in the sequel trilogy, he's just a side character who, off-screen and in the past, corrupted young Ben which caused the downfall of Luke's school and has some role with the founding/rise of the First Order. Again, it's TFA's fault for failing to adequately setup/explain the First Order's rise post-ROTJ. That part of Snoke's role in the galaxy does feel weirdly unexplained and empty but it turns out that's the least important part of his character.
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Dec 28, 2017 17:03
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teagone posted:His seduction of Ben was also explained; we learn Snoke has the ability to bridge minds through the force, and also that Luke witnessed darkness in Ben during his training. "Snoke had already turned his heart" because Ben, as per TFA, had been shown to be someone who was powerful in the force, but also deeply tormented. Easy target for Snoke to sense and bring over to the dark side. This, I think, is actually less fully explained than you make it out to be. You have to take the leap that Snoke communicated to Ben via the same methods he was bridging him and Rey. They never really touch on exactly what turned Ben's heart to darkness. Just that by the time Luke sensed it, it was already too late.
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Dec 28, 2017 19:16
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teagone posted:No yeah, I acknowledged that some assumptions have to be made in the CineD thread, but information is there that can be used to help understand the how and why. Crossposting when a goon complained that Ben's fall to the dark side had no explanation. But even all this, while logical, isn't touched on at all in the movies and is just headcannon. Even the Han and Leia stuff isn't clear as TFA doesn't outline when they split (I actually recall that TFA implied they split after Ben fell to the Dark Side but I could be misremembering). I didn't read it but even Bloodline, the post-TFA cannon novel which was explicitly about the galaxy finding out Leia was Vader's daughter in a post-ROTJ Republic, didn't really touch on the breakup of Ben's family or his fall to the Dark Side. It's all still unexplained. Edit: actually, the book explicitly takes place after Ben has left to train with Luke, her and Han are still married yet living separately, and ends with the formation of the Resistance. All we know is Snoke can bridge minds across vast distances, is a powerful Force user himself, and that he turned Ben to the Dark Side. The how and why regarding the two and their motives are still an open question. Thwomp fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Dec 28, 2017 |
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Dec 28, 2017 19:35
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teagone posted:Most of what I talk about is touched on. It's all more so deductive reasoning given what TLJ and TFA present us with. I mean, unless Snoke was somehow physically visiting Ben at Luke's temple in secret, his ability to bridge minds is really the only way we can infer how he was able to communicate with Ben prior to Luke realizing Snoke had already turned Ben's heart. Luke also says he did sense a bit of darkness in Ben during his training, and from what we know of Ben in TFA, the kid is a bit unstable and tormented; why is he like that though? It's not clear, but like I said, it could have been because of his parents when you take into consideration the way Ben talks about Han in TFA while he's interrogating Rey. TFA also shows us Ben is wholly obsessed with his grandfather and "finishing what he started" and he fears not becoming as powerful as him like Rey said. In TLJ, Snoke straight up says to Ben "When I found you, I saw raw untamed power, and the potential of your bloodline. A new Vader." I don't feel like it's a stretch to think that's the path Snoke offered Ben when he was in training with Luke. It may not be explicit, but the past two films definitely have enough there to paint a picture. It's logical but there's still leaps to be made. It does seem likely that Snoke communicated with Ben in the same way he got Ben and Rey to talk. But the Ben in TFA is not the same as Ben-the-Jedi-student. Ben is tormented in TFA because of what he's become and that he still feels "the call of the Light" after everything he's done. At this point in his story, he feels he should be Vader or clearly on the path to being as powerful as Vader. That he's not gnaws at him (see how shaken he is at Rey calling out his fear of not living up to Vader). He kills his father because he believes its the only way he can truly transcend his past and be what he wants, or needs, to be. Because if he isn't or can't, then everything he's done and everyone he's killed has been for nothing. TLJ takes this and runs with it. Ben is tired of being called out. Tired of being seen by Snoke as "less than" Vader, Luke, Rey or even Hux. Tired of being rejected (first, incorrectly, by Luke, then the other Jedi students, then, presumably the Republic, then Rey in TFA, then Snoke in TLJ). So he literally casts aside his aspirations to be Vader and, in that moment, decides to betray Snoke. He's ready to tear everything down and start again because then, at least, his efforts will have meaning. But everything Ben does in TFA and TLJ is driven by this yet unexplained reason for his turning to the Dark Side. What did Snoke tempt him with? What stirred the darkness in his heart? Was it not being told who his grandfather was? Was it finding out who his grandfather was and the lure of achieving that kind of power? (for the record, this appears to be the most likely candidate given Snoke's reference to "raw power and potential of his bloodline" as you said. But that could easily be describing Snoke's motivations for picking Ben as someone to turn rather than why Ben turned.) If so, what predisposed a young Ben to that kind of lure? We're not given anything about Ben's childhood or how his training with Luke initially went. That's why it's still difficult to pin down the why of Ben's fall. Leaping to Ben's character in TFA skips over the core thing about Ben that made him susceptible to Snoke's advances. Thwomp fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Dec 28, 2017 |
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Dec 28, 2017 20:31
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TheCenturion posted:And that would make perfect sense. Take standard teenage angst, throw in them tiptoeing around him a bit because they don't want to screw up his upbringing, they never mention Vader being his grandpappy because why would you bother? and it's easy for somebody to twist that into malicious deceit and what not. Not only that but none of that is mentioned in the movies or books. The Bloodline book does establish cannonically that Luke, Leia, and Han kept the Vader secret from everyone and that, when the truth came out to the galaxy, Leia attempted to get some kind of message or word to Ben apologizing. Neither the book nor movies touch on Ben hearing about the news or Snoke using the Vader secret to turn Ben against his family. They also don't touch on Han and Leia's abilities as parents, Ben's time at Jedi school, or any of Ben's emotions/attitudes in growing up the son and nephew of galatic heroes. Just to be clear, I'm not arguing for literalism in film. You can make all the deductive leaps you'd like including using special featurettes but going by the movies (and even including the cannon books), they tell you nothing of Ben's early life and why he was susceptible to Snoke's temptations, whatever they were.
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Dec 28, 2017 21:44
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Lol. I love that the new eu still had multiple people working on getting those plans. Not officially of course but still.
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Feb 24, 2018 22:16
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There’s a lot to like in Rogue One. The whole third act is really tight. The Empire being the Empire is pretty great. K2-SO4 is a delight as is Donny Yen. However, it’s second act along with characterization for most of the main characters is awful. Plotting and pacing are a real issue too throughout the first two thirds.
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Feb 26, 2018 21:21
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Aces High posted:can we all just take a moment to recognize that one Stormtrooper who was prepared to let Sabine go if it meant not doing paperwork Honestly, I'd like to just call out that the Empire was actually doing a decent job of guarding the temple excavation site. It actually kinda floored me given how often the Empire is just portrayed as inept. Ezra and Sabine are both caught looking around and they only escape via an Ezra mind trick. They are both essentially caught again at the mural and Sabine has to let herself get taken back to headquarters (essentially sacrificing herself) to buy Ezra time. Sabine's identity is immediately ascertained by the Imperial official who then has a legit reason for keeping her alive and not executing her on the spot. The only ineptness in the episode is allowing Chopper to steal their drill tank which allows the group to escape. Still, it was a nice bit of writing and creativity.
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Mar 1, 2018 15:00
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Yeah, the Yoda stands out as almost too un-stylized. Tarkin, Obi-Wan, Bail Organa, and the Emperor all look appropriately aged and fit Rebels less-stylized look. But Yoda looks too round and feature-less.
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Mar 7, 2018 19:57
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Part of it, I'm sure, is that you're watching season 1 of Rebels after coming off the last seasons of Clone Wars and those CW seasons had some really amazing looking animation/sequences in them. Take this Season 4 sequence https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcfV6yUUMhs and compare it to what you're seeing here in the Rebels premier. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKeet-Kee9k&t=28s The lighting, the number of moving pieces in each action, the stuff going on in the background, etc. There's a lot more going on in a later Clone Wars episode than an early Rebels one. You'd be forgiven for being a bit disappointed. Now, Rebels did get better as time goes on. Just look at the Ahsoka/Vader fight from the Season 2 finale. Thwomp fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Mar 7, 2018 |
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Mar 7, 2018 22:29
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Oh hey, shout out to Filoni for Thrawn’s pathos. I love that he calls out the Jedi, not for being weak, but for using their power through a moral code. He’s not like a “I hate puppies and sunshine” evil mustache twirler. Nor is he some kind of fallen idealist. He knows exactly what he wants: power. And will use and ally with whatever accomplishes his goals to achieve more power. He’d feel right at home next to Jedi if they were less moralistic in their use of their powers. I’m trying to remember if he was like that in the original Zahn books. All I remember was brilliant tactician and studier of cultures.
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Mar 8, 2018 00:49
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Would that be the series they previously announced for the Disney streaming service?
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Mar 8, 2018 16:07
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Miniatures have a great look but only when everything else is being done that way. Once you start trying to compete with what CG can do, it just all falls apart. Like, Return of the Jedi has some of the best miniature work put to screen. But looks at the breakdown of the shots. There's only a couple of minutes total of miniature shots and most are with a static (or nearly static) camera. There's some really complex shots of ships moving around and following other ships but most shots are "ship flies past in one direction". As soon as you want to do more complicated panning shots or long takes, CG makes everything easier. Or if the industry has moved on to more complex action, the audience expects to see that in future films. Madurai posted:High definition has done no favors to miniatures work in movies past. There is this weirdness to how sharp the Star Destroyers look in Rouge One. They feel overly detailed and sharpened but I know its just the ultra-detailed CG models (likely based on direct scans of older miniatures) filling in the gaps my mind did for me with the older movies.
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Aug 30, 2018 17:53
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