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InternetJunky
May 25, 2002



ymgve posted:

and how do you pay back that loan? with money from the money tree?

Easy. When the crypto goes up again you take out another loan using the new equity you've earned as the next collateral. Then pay off the first load with that. Repeat until you are a billionaire.

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Galewolf
Jan 9, 2007






The world makes absolutely no sense anymore, jfc.

Fur20
Nov 14, 2007

すご▞い!
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね!


Galewolf posted:

The world makes absolutely no sense anymore, jfc.



the world makes sense you're just looking at a random number generator that's being influenced by large amounts of fake money that a certain number of people think, or possibly pretend to think, exists

Galewolf
Jan 9, 2007






I mean, yeah, the stock exchange is equally make-believe money that ruins the lives of everyone in the world in like 20 year intervals but at least there is like an iota of "cause and effect" is there such as oil prices, political stability and whatever. This is pure nonsense and it hurts my caveman brain.

Code Jockey
Jan 24, 2006

you can call
but I seldom answer after all




repiv posted:

hell there's already specialized chia mining hardware in production, like this motherboard with a 32-way SATA backplane built in



the chia network is up to 1.7 million TB already, i wonder how much of that is from purpose-built mining operations

lol I want this motherboard for my NAS / torrent box

presuming it isn't complete trash anyway

Orvin
Sep 9, 2006






InternetJunky posted:

Are banks actually willing to issue loans using crypto as collateral? I don't see any way that could go badly.

This came up about a month ago while chatting with my co-workers who have crypto brain worms. Right now, the only places that will give you loans backed by crypto are based around crypto. And they are currently charging something like 8% interest. Plus, you want to put in significantly more coins than the loans you are taking out, in case there is a ďslightĒ downturn in price. If the value of your coins goes below your loan (or maybe some set ratio of your loan), they sell your coins to close out your loan. Also, they pay the loan in some sort of crypto, not cash money. So you still have to cash out your crypto in some form.

So of course all these people that espouse the do as rich people, and get a .5% loan on your investment to avoid taxes miss some of the key points. And are going to be in for a rude awakening when their loan closes out on them and they ultimately owe the taxes they were hoping to avoid.

Rufio
Feb 6, 2003

I'm smart! Not like everybody says... like dumb... I'm smart and I want respect!

too many dollars, not enough sense

Knot My President!
Jan 10, 2005





Winged Orpheus posted:

You have a degree in economics but don't know how taxes work and are too dumb to parse your electric bill properly? Because you're claiming that a 32% undervolt on a single electrical component in your home somehow reduced your electric bill by 39%.

Also, the wager you're making isn't "crypto won't go to 0 in the next year", it's "this particular dodgy looking crypto company with absurd purported returns won't just take my money and vanish into the night". Guess which of these is significantly more likely to happen?

That's not very nice. If you want a closer number it's probably 250 watts / hour / 24 hours / 30 days at 25 cents per kwh, so like $40/month. $180/month is because it was cold and it's warming up. Having an economics degree doesn't mean I study taxes. That's what tax advisors are for. If I can get a faster answer here then I will before I start going down the rabbit hole for something I'm merely considering as an option.

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Bzzt Bzzt!

Knot My President! posted:

That's not very nice. If you want a closer number it's probably 250 watts / hour / 24 hours / 30 days at 25 cents per kwh, so like $40/month. $180/month is because it was cold and it's warming up. Having an economics degree doesn't mean I study taxes. That's what tax advisors are for. If I can get a faster answer here then I will before I start going down the rabbit hole for something I'm merely considering as an option.

Try to factor in the externalities of contributing to ETH as well. You're supporting a system with a huge energy consumption rate and carbon footprint. It's not as bad as BTC, but it still uses more energy than most countries. You're burning energy to help be the record keeper for money laundering and sex trafficking in exchange for a little bit of money.

Knot My President!
Jan 10, 2005





Jose Valasquez posted:

Try to factor in the externalities of contributing to ETH as well. You're supporting a system with a huge energy consumption rate and carbon footprint. It's not as bad as BTC, but it still uses more energy than most countries. You're burning energy to help be the record keeper for money laundering and sex trafficking in exchange for a little bit of money.

While true, is there anything we can do about it given the worldwide support behind crypto? I donít want to bring in privation fallacies but it seems like thereís much more impactful tangential activism we could focus on, like restricting ship usage of bunker fuel, no?

Prurient Squid
Jul 21, 2008

Tiddy cat Buddha improving your day.

InternetJunky posted:

Are banks actually willing to issue loans using crypto as collateral? I don't see any way that could go badly.

Just use your house as collateral. It's not like those buttcoins are going to lose value or anything!

D-Pad
Jun 28, 2006

We will make electricity so cheap that only the rich will burn candles.



Pro click:

InternetJunky
May 25, 2002



Prurient Squid posted:

Just use your house as collateral. It's not like those buttcoins are going to lose value or anything!

If you do that and bitcoin tanks then the bank owns your house. If you use bitcoin as collateral and bitcoin tanks then the banks also tank.

That's a lot of tanks.

Shumagorath
Jun 5, 2001


Knot My President! posted:

Shrug, I left Horizon Zero Dawn idling. Last month I was $180 and this month $110. Nothing else changed in my habits
I thought about this some more (God help me) and this rationale for gaming vs coining dropping your power usage only works if you:

-Rent
-Pay for power but not heat, but you covered this
-Manually wash dishes or use disposables for every meal
-Hang dry all clothes, assuming an excellent washing machine, or use a laundromat
-Don't have an electric vehicle

Even in our current WFH Hell you would have to be an 8hr/day Twitch streamer for 68% 24/7 load on a cutting-edge GPU to be a significant drop in your power bill. It's probably your heating costs like you said earlier, in which case: Did your economics degree tell you what a negative externality is?

Hammerite
Mar 9, 2007

And you don't remember what I said here, either, but it was pompous and stupid.


Jade Ear Joe

Knot My President! posted:

While true, is there anything we can do about it given the worldwide support behind crypto? I donít want to bring in privation fallacies but it seems like thereís much more impactful tangential activism we could focus on, like restricting ship usage of bunker fuel, no?

why do so many crypto fans do this "something else is bad, therefore it's fine for me to do things that are bad" thing

Blotto_Otter
Aug 16, 2013




Grimey Drawer

Hammerite posted:

why do so many crypto fans do this "something else is bad, therefore it's fine for me to do things that are bad" thing

because gambling winnings are a hell of a drug, and junkies ain't exactly logical when it comes to justifying their habits

spunkshui
Oct 5, 2011





Look Iím sure all of the women sold into sex slavery wanted to be sold for bitcoins.

Harry Potter on Ice
Nov 4, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 3 hours!


Blotto_Otter posted:

because gambling winnings are a hell of a drug, and junkies ain't exactly logical when it comes to justifying their habits

RH putting a penny stock on a crypto list with 6 others and one being at over 50k is hosed up. It looks like a cookie clicker game

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Bzzt Bzzt!

Knot My President! posted:

While true, is there anything we can do about it given the worldwide support behind crypto? I donít want to bring in privation fallacies but it seems like thereís much more impactful tangential activism we could focus on, like restricting ship usage of bunker fuel, no?

Yes there is something we can do about it, we can not support it. You literally don't have to do anything at all to not support cryptocurrency, just don't buy it and don't mine it. With all the time you spend not doing anything with cryptocurrency you can focus on reducing usage of bunker fuel. Two birds with one stone.

notwithoutmyanus
Mar 17, 2009


Knot My President! posted:

I'm unironically considering moving like 10g into stablecoins on Celsius because wealthfront is 0.1% APY rn to Celsius's 10% but i have no idea how crypto taxes work

like if i put 10g and make 1k/year from it, how is this all taxed if at any point I decide to withdraw it? I heard that crypto appreciation is taxed as capital gains but USD coin is always $1? this is the first time in my life i can comfortably say I have money to play around with and now between learning what 401k's are and stuff I'm all like

i'm also mining ethereum on my 3090 by idling it at like 68% power and making like $300/month. my electricity bill also dropped 40% because I stopped playing games. i guess gamers are an environmental hazard

Do nexo and get their tokens, and get 10% yearly (compounded daily). It's a better way to go. Nexo is indeed regulated, and insured. People be ignorant if they don't realize a lot of these companies *want* to gain SEC approval and are actively working towards it. It's where I slow roll profits out as price goes up. Also, their loan rates (which do mean you get an ACH straight to your bank) are like 5%.

notwithoutmyanus fucked around with this message at 19:48 on May 4, 2021

Knot My President!
Jan 10, 2005





Shumagorath posted:

I thought about this some more (God help me) and this rationale for gaming vs coining dropping your power usage only works if you:

-Rent
-Pay for power but not heat, but you covered this
-Manually wash dishes or use disposables for every meal
-Hang dry all clothes, assuming an excellent washing machine, or use a laundromat
-Don't have an electric vehicle

Even in our current WFH Hell you would have to be an 8hr/day Twitch streamer for 68% 24/7 load on a cutting-edge GPU to be a significant drop in your power bill. It's probably your heating costs like you said earlier, in which case: Did your economics degree tell you what a negative externality is?

I rent, I have gas heating, I don't have a dishwasher, I use a laundromat, I don't own a car and take public transit, etc.

Hammerite posted:

why do so many crypto fans do this "something else is bad, therefore it's fine for me to do things that are bad" thing

Because my overall power consumption is not very high and my lifestyle doesn't create much pollution to begin with. I caveated with a relative privation nonetheless. The point is that you have to pick your battles, and I focus on other forms of activism because that's where I prefer to put my bandwidth. It's the same reason I'm not vegan while fully being aware of the unethical practices in and environmental impact of factory farming.

I'm well aware of negative externalities, and what I'm saying is that my overall footprint is so low that I just simply don't see it swaying me. If I swap out idling my graphics card for gaming and only run it at night, my net incremental savings on electricity consumption, given my lifestyle, is still incredibly low.

Winged Orpheus
May 21, 2010

Domine, Dirige Nos


So just to clarify, since you have gas heating you are in fact claiming the $70 reduction in your power bill is due solely to your graphics card and had nothing to do with warmer outside temperatures?

And also, there are options other than "support the crimecoin network and waste energy while doing so" and "Leave a game running unpaused on my computer for a month to the tune of $70 of electricity". You could, you know, just turn the computer off when you're not using it.

Also, between you and the log cabin heater guy it's a little weird how it seems crypto fans have a hyperawareness of their own carbon footprint but just don't seem to give a gently caress when it comes to crypto environmental destruction

Winged Orpheus fucked around with this message at 20:21 on May 4, 2021

Somfin
Oct 25, 2010




Nap Ghost

Knot My President! posted:

I rent, I have gas heating, I don't have a dishwasher, I use a laundromat, I don't own a car and take public transit, etc.


Because my overall power consumption is not very high and my lifestyle doesn't create much pollution to begin with. I caveated with a relative privation nonetheless. The point is that you have to pick your battles, and I focus on other forms of activism because that's where I prefer to put my bandwidth. It's the same reason I'm not vegan while fully being aware of the unethical practices in and environmental impact of factory farming.

I'm well aware of negative externalities, and what I'm saying is that my overall footprint is so low that I just simply don't see it swaying me. If I swap out idling my graphics card for gaming and only run it at night, my net incremental savings on electricity consumption, given my lifestyle, is still incredibly low.

Once again, "it's fine for me to make things worse on purpose because I'm otherwise doing good things" like the vegan who thought not eating beef made mining Bitcoin carbon neutral

Goddamn utilitarian brain worms

DerekSmartymans
Feb 14, 2005

The
Copacetic
Ascetic


InternetJunky posted:

Hey guys, will you please spread word about the new crypto I have created. I'm calling it geddoncoin. It's based on people buying up bags of coal and elephant ivory.

Is it ARM based?

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Bzzt Bzzt!

I get it, I recycle and ride my bike which is why I feel ok tripping old people on the street

Galewolf
Jan 9, 2007






I recycle my cans and in return directly dump toxic waste into the mouths of humpback whales, choose your battles guys!

Galewolf
Jan 9, 2007






Bitcoiners multiplying like a hydra, goddamn.

Knot My President!
Jan 10, 2005





I didn't realize I'd be pedantically scrutinized for late night exaggerated tongue and cheek napkin math and video game idling but whatever. Gas makes up a significant portion of my utilites bill because I have a 20 year old 10 foot single pane window in my living room that doesn't seal all the way and the property manager said since it's not broken they won't do anything about it for the time being. This tripled my gas bill for the winter. I have 80 hours logged on HZD. My utilites statistics show me at about 350-400kwh per month, which is half the national monthly average and 20-30% less than the average for my state. But goons are gonna goon I guess

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Bzzt Bzzt!

If you want people to pat you on the head and tell you good job for mining ethereum the "making fun of cryptocurrency" thread is probably the wrong place

tango alpha delta
Sep 9, 2011

Ask me about my wealthy lifestyle and passive income! I love bragging about my wealth to my lessers! My opinions are more valid because I have more money than you! Stealing the fruits of the labor of the working class is okay, so long as you don't do it using crypto. More money = better than!


Knot My President! posted:

I didn't realize I'd be pedantically scrutinized for late night exaggerated tongue and cheek napkin math and video game idling but whatever. Gas makes up a significant portion of my utilites bill because I have a 20 year old 10 foot single pane window in my living room that doesn't seal all the way and the property manager said since it's not broken they won't do anything about it for the time being. This tripled my gas bill for the winter. I have 80 hours logged on HZD. My utilites statistics show me at about 350-400kwh per month, which is half the national monthly average and 20-30% less than the average for my state. But goons are gonna goon I guess

lol at posting in a clearly anti crypto thread. for an encore, why don't you post as a mormon on some southern baptist forum.

crypto is nothing more than gambling.

e:hey guys, i volunteer with Habitat for Humanity so that probably gives me a free pass to knock over a bunch of mom and pop grocery stores, right?

tango alpha delta fucked around with this message at 21:15 on May 4, 2021

Shumagorath
Jun 5, 2001


Knot My President! posted:

Because my overall power consumption is not very high and my lifestyle doesn't create much pollution to begin with.
So you want a little pollution and criminal enablement, as a treat?

Blotto_Otter
Aug 16, 2013




Grimey Drawer

Knot My President! posted:

My utilites statistics show me at about 350-400kwh per month, which is half the national monthly average and 20-30% less than the average for my state. But goons are gonna goon I guess

Your individual utilities bill is not what people find troubling. Your unnecessary, voluntary participation in a scheme that rewards the wasting of energy for absolutely no other purpose than personal financial reward is what people find troubling. Proof-of-work cryptocurrencies incentivize increasing amounts of environmental destruction with increasing amounts of personal financial reward, while offering no actual utility whatsoever to society at large. It is a fundamentally immoral system, and unlike many other immoral systems that permeate our lives, this one is trivially easy not to engage with.

Mad Dragon
Feb 29, 2004



One of my co-workers (an older woman) was telling me about how her 90-something father was thinking about getting into bitcoin. Even she knows how ridiculous this poo poo is. Hopefully he doesn't drain the grandkids' trust funds.

Knot My President!
Jan 10, 2005





Shumagorath posted:

So you want a little pollution and criminal enablement, as a treat?

Sure

tango alpha delta posted:


e:hey guys, i volunteer with Habitat for Humanity so that probably gives me a free pass to rob a bunch of mom and pop grocery stores, right?

Yes because idling a gpu is the same as robbing mom and pop grocery stores. Come on dude.

Blotto_Otter posted:

Your individual utilities bill is not what people find troubling. Your unnecessary, voluntary participation in a scheme that rewards the wasting of energy for absolutely no other purpose than personal financial reward is what people find troubling. Proof-of-work cryptocurrencies incentivize increasing amounts of environmental destruction with increasing amounts of personal financial reward, while offering no actual utility whatsoever to society at large. It is a fundamentally immoral system, and unlike many other immoral systems that permeate our lives, this one is trivially easy not to engage with.

As you pointed out, you just described capitalism. I can't fault people in the age of the $5/hour gig economy opting to make passive income with heroin sex trafficking sudokus.

Believe me, I make fun of crypto. A lot. I'm in the heart of it and I hate it. I've consulted for it and I despise it. Tech bros talking about crypto in public is noise pollution. I have at length ranted about how square peg and round hole blockchain is for business solutions. The entire space is about keeping one step ahead of the SEC protecting people from these dumb gambling pump and dump pyramid scams and for something that will "disrupt government money" they sure do quantify its value relative to government fiat a lot. Knowledge is knowing both crypto and hamfisting crypto tech into startup ideas is the dumbest poo poo on the planet meant to appeal to the dumbest people on the planet. Wisdom is recognizing that an extra few hundred a month that can be turned to fiat in this pokemon card shitshow is pretty appetizing to a lot of people

Salt Fish
Sep 11, 2003
WANTING A VACCINE DOES NOT MAKE SOMEONE AN ANTIVAXXER, DUMBASS

Cybernetic Crumb

My get rich quick scheme might be destroying the planet... BUT! It's also used to fund child porn so its cool.

tango alpha delta
Sep 9, 2011

Ask me about my wealthy lifestyle and passive income! I love bragging about my wealth to my lessers! My opinions are more valid because I have more money than you! Stealing the fruits of the labor of the working class is okay, so long as you don't do it using crypto. More money = better than!


Knot My President! posted:

Yes because idling a gpu is the same as robbing mom and pop grocery stores. Come on dude.

yeah, dude, i find hyperbole confusing too.

you are part of the problem. 'oh, but i'm just one guy', you say. while that is true, there are millions of other guys just like you.

e:"the titanic is sinking, but i can make a few bucks selling baseball cards to the people getting into lifeboats" - Knot My President

crypto is gambling.

tango alpha delta fucked around with this message at 21:30 on May 4, 2021

Blotto_Otter
Aug 16, 2013




Grimey Drawer

Knot My President! posted:

As you pointed out, you just described capitalism. I can't fault people in the age of the $5/hour gig economy opting to make passive income with heroin sex trafficking sudokus.

We're not faulting someone stuck making $5/hour driving an Uber for making passive income from heroin sex trafficking sudokus, we're faulting you for opting to make passive income with heroin sex trafficking sudokus. If your rationalization for making money unethically in a way that is entirely optional to you is "well everyone else does it", don't get upset when posters tell you that you're a selfish rear end in a top hat.

Knot My President!
Jan 10, 2005





tango alpha delta posted:

yeah, dude, i find hyperbole confusing too.

you are part of the problem. 'oh, but i'm just one guy', you say. while that is true, there are millions of other guys just like you.

e:"the titanic is sinking, but i can make a few bucks selling baseball cards to the people getting into lifeboats" - Knot My President

crypto is gambling.

You'd have more of an impact reducing overall kwh consumption by proselytizing to people you can sway rather than to me who has already established that my net footprint is so low that I don't see it being a problem. This is actually the path I take when people ask me about it. I could burn garbage and keep my lights on 24/7 and it would still be less pollution than what most people generate. Donating $5 to RAINN has more of an impact on sexual abuse than avoiding mining. Conceptually I agree that it's bad, but you're kidding yourself if you don't think a few hundred dollars a month is a substantial amount of money for doing basically nothing for a lot of people. Crypto is dumb but so is tossing aside pragmatism for ideology. Pick your battles; you don't have to win over everyone

Blotto_Otter posted:

We're not faulting someone stuck making $5/hour driving an Uber for making passive income from heroin sex trafficking sudokus, we're faulting you for opting to make passive income with heroin sex trafficking sudokus. If your rationalization for making money unethically in a way that is entirely optional to you is "well everyone else does it", don't get upset when posters tell you that you're a selfish rear end in a top hat.

Yeah I don't care if people call me an rear end in a top hat for it honestly. Everyone has their vices and I make up for it in other ways regardless of whether people think it's a dumb way to do it. I still think crypto is dumb either way.

Knot My President! fucked around with this message at 21:54 on May 4, 2021

Winged Orpheus
May 21, 2010

Domine, Dirige Nos


Knot My President! posted:

Believe me, I make fun of crypto. A lot. I'm in the heart of it and I hate it. I've consulted for it and I despise it. Tech bros talking about crypto in public is noise pollution. I have at length ranted about how square peg and round hole blockchain is for business solutions. The entire space is about keeping one step ahead of the SEC protecting people from these dumb gambling pump and dump pyramid scams and for something that will "disrupt government money" they sure do quantify its value relative to government fiat a lot. Knowledge is knowing both crypto and hamfisting crypto tech into startup ideas is the dumbest poo poo on the planet meant to appeal to the dumbest people on the planet. Wisdom is recognizing that an extra few hundred a month that can be turned to fiat in this pokemon card shitshow is pretty appetizing to a lot of people

Is wisdom being this familiar with crypto and how stupid the whole sphere is, yet unironically considering throwing 10 grand into it for an impossibly high promised rate of return in the hopes of getting out before they run out of greater fools?

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resistentialism
Aug 13, 2007



Knot My President! posted:

Yeah I don't care if people call me an rear end in a top hat for it honestly.

It sort of seemed like you did during the time you tried to rationalize it for the past couple hours. This might be personal growth.

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