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WillPac
Aug 4, 2009

Rags to Riches


spunkshui posted:

So where do you see the guy that’s printing 5 billion dollars of new tether a month in all of this vision of yours?

I guess it wouldn’t be a currency of the Internet if it wasn’t a huge scam.

USDT is very scary as it doesn't seem to be properly backed. I've personally never used it.

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punishedkissinger
Sep 20, 2017



WillPac posted:

Long story short, I believe that the energy consumed by the Bitcoin network is what gives the virtual "coin" value.

maybe we shouldnt go all in on a "currency" which derived its value from accelerating climate change

jokes
Dec 20, 2012

Uh... Kupo?


punishedkissinger posted:

maybe we shouldnt go all in on a "currency" which derived its value from accelerating climate change

El Niñocoin

WillPac
Aug 4, 2009

Rags to Riches


jokes posted:

Just use venmo? Or any online money thing?

bitcoin isnt the only "money, but internet" out there

https://www.monito.com/en/wiki/venmo-international-money-transfer-alternatives

Unfortunately, Venmo and the other big payment aggregators have problems with sending money between certain countries. I can't even use Venmo in Canada.

catspleen
Sep 12, 2003

I orphaned his children. I widowed his wife.



Worthless pedopogs burning the world down, thank you!

Juul-Whip
Mar 10, 2008



The internet isn't run by participants like you and me. Governments regulate the wireless spectrum and give internet providers the right to run wires under your house. International bodies make sure the regulations are somewhat harmonized from one country to the next so you can text your friend overseas. It's not the wild west and it never really was.

punishedkissinger
Sep 20, 2017



WillPac posted:

https://www.monito.com/en/wiki/venmo-international-money-transfer-alternatives

Unfortunately, Venmo and the other big payment aggregators have problems with sending money between certain countries. I can't even use Venmo in Canada.

i refuse to believe that bitcoin is more convenient than paypal or even a loving money order

catspleen
Sep 12, 2003

I orphaned his children. I widowed his wife.



I see you’ve never watched Johnny mnemonic, which is a documentary about how the internet works.

catspleen
Sep 12, 2003

I orphaned his children. I widowed his wife.



punishedkissinger posted:

i refuse to believe that bitcoin is more convenient than paypal or even a loving money order

Or being a cash mule across international borders.

Juul-Whip
Mar 10, 2008



how about this, you can just mail cash. it's not like they're opening your packages 99.9% of the time

jokes
Dec 20, 2012

Uh... Kupo?


catspleen posted:

Or being a cash mule across international borders.

Depending on the mode of transportation, and the border, this might also be more energy efficient than bitcoin

necrotic
Aug 1, 2005
I owe my brother big time for this!

WillPac posted:

Proof-of-work is different because it requires significant physical infrastructure in the real world (ASIC machines, energy costs, warehouse rent, etc.) and those real world ties are what gives it value to me.


It doesn't require this at all, and just throws the extra energy away.

Chadzok
Apr 25, 2002



'not a big bitcoin guy' lists elaborate justifications for why bitcoin is the only solution

jokes
Dec 20, 2012

Uh... Kupo?


I'm still sitting here thinking it's funny that someone thinks that wasting energy and resources is a sufficient basis of value.

Like, you're cooking and start a fire that burns down the block and someone comes up and says "poo poo! that's a huge fire! Gotta be about 50,000 BTUs huh? Well, here's 50,000 BTU coins!" and they e-mail you a .gif that says "50,000" and you think "wow, this is better than dollars"

e: "gently caress man, you just spent $10,000 renting 500 acres of wasteland in the middle of the desert? Well, that's tied to the real world and thus carries value-- here's some coins!"

jokes fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Jun 1, 2021

PHIZ KALIFA
Dec 21, 2011
ABS THUNDERSKULL.

element: thunderbolts.

steed: a thunderbolt.

slogan/motto: "gonna clap them cheeks like a Thunderskull."


why is the AMC stock spiking again?

ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

Rise and shine, master leprechaun.





PHIZ KALIFA posted:

why is the AMC stock spiking again?

Blockchain but for not being in a theater with a crying baby

punishedkissinger
Sep 20, 2017



look at all the inherent value of carbon dioxide

ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

Rise and shine, master leprechaun.





Lol at the optimism of that graph bottoming out at 10k

jokes
Dec 20, 2012

Uh... Kupo?


"Your honor, we have no more cash on hand however we have demonstrable proof that we spent millions of dollars burning old tires in a field and paying exorbitant rent, so we decided to pop that onto our balance sheet as an asset.

No, you don't understand, it's tied to the real world.

No, your honor, we have proof that we burnt the tires and paid the rent. See we have proof. Look, it's.. it's tied to the real world. It's the internet."

ymgve
Jan 2, 2004




Offensive Clock

"these other coins don't use as much energy" is a bad argument because if any of them became as popular target for mining as bitcoin, they would balloon in energy requirements too. i guess proof of stake is coming Any Day Now for some coins, but not sure that proof has been shown to work in a non-toy environment with real amounts of money on the line

Somfin
Oct 25, 2010




Nap Ghost

WillPac posted:

Long story short, I believe that the energy consumed by the Bitcoin network is what gives the virtual "coin" value.

Give us the long story then because the short one makes no sense at all.

You're literally saying that there is value in destruction and waste.

punishedkissinger
Sep 20, 2017



even the most psychotic capitalists understand that waste is not value lmao bitcoin is multiverse brain

tehinternet
Feb 14, 2005



WillPac posted:

Again, I'm really not a big Bitcoin guy, but I'm happy to share my opinion.

Long story short, I believe that the energy consumed by the Bitcoin network is what gives the virtual "coin" value. Anyone can make a proof-of-stake coin and print the coins at the money machine in hopes that others will find it valuable later on. Proof-of-work is different because it requires significant physical infrastructure in the real world (ASIC machines, energy costs, warehouse rent, etc.) and those real world ties are what gives it value to me.

You seem like a really nice guy so I’ll engage in good faith: why does the waste of energy give BTC value?

Full disclosure, I mined ETH with 8 GPUs in 2017 — I regret it personally despite making ~$3000 or so profit after selling off everything to goons/friends/building computers for my kids & energy/GPU costs. It seemed pretty apparent to me that it had no value and was just turning kWh into gambling fodder.

I’d honestly ask you what value you see it having?

nullEntityRNG
Jun 23, 2010

Mostly pseudo-random.


WillPac posted:

Proof-of-work is different because it requires significant physical infrastructure in the real world (ASIC machines, energy costs, warehouse rent, etc.) and those real world ties are what gives it value to me.

I'm always bugged by this take because it takes a real leap of faith to believe this. Proof of work makes sense because in noncoin land that's what moat of us do for actual money. We do some arbitrary task or create some arbitrary good to make some number in a ledger go up and use that number to buy things. So when you reduce that logic down, the coin logic seems to be a good stand in for this system.

The problem with it though is that now you replaced you doing some arbitrary task with a computer doing it...and...that's it. Now the thing that actually gives it worth is removed- you. All you are now is a Shepard for a piece of hardware. As you pointed out, now its about energy and space- which fundamentally is limited and not available to everyone. You ideally want it to be but you know as well as I that there will always be bad agents and they will always try to hoard it and ultimately gently caress over everyone else as much as they can. Reductionism arguments aside, The value is not the space itself, or even the energy to do it. Its the people doing those tasks to make that happen. A computer chugging away at some random number generator has no value, bit the people who design and test it does. The efforts involved give that value.

At that ideal point, why not just hope for the Star Trek universe where scarcity simply doesn't exist? Why need imaginary coins in the first place if the ideal state is where true effort is the value put forth by individuals?

No, instead its the magic box and the things to feed it that makes value. Make a home for the magic box and perhaps he too will grant you some wealth.

Shumagorath
Jun 5, 2001


punishedkissinger posted:

even the most psychotic capitalists understand that waste is not value lmao bitcoin is multiverse brain
"I'm only burning my half" but as a dig at the other half.

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003


I'm developing an ever deeper understanding of the community around crypto. When someone says they work in finance it means they work at the credit desk of a car dealership or for a pay day lender.

Also, the ad I'm getting for this thread is for:
https://guhtoken.org/

jokes
Dec 20, 2012

Uh... Kupo?


I work in CAPM

Cappin em no-coiners!!!

shame on an IGA
Apr 8, 2005

Get into shit, let it out like diarrhea
Got burnt once, that was only gonorrhea




SYSV Fanfic posted:

I'm developing an ever deeper understanding of the community around crypto. When someone says they work in finance it means they work at the credit desk of a car dealership or for a pay day lender.

Also, the ad I'm getting for this thread is for:
https://guhtoken.org/

man, buying forums ads, somebody must be really invested in trying to Control The Narrative around GUH

poverty goat
Feb 15, 2004




catspleen posted:

I see you’ve never watched Johnny mnemonic, which is a documentary about how the internet works.

the internet is a series of keanu reeves

Ad by Khad
Jul 25, 2007

SomethingAwful's Official Karen





WillPac posted:

I also accept that's just my perspective and opinion and I respect those that see no value in Bitcoin as well.

How do you square "trustless settlement" with the fact that its main purpose is going to be to fund terrorism and sanctions evasion?

How do you square "bitcoin should be it since the infrastructure is already set up" with the fact that Satoshi basically pre-mined a million of these things and there are dozens of HODLers with 6 digits as well and they could annihilate the whole system in a moment, if they wanted (and some of them threatened to do so, in 2017)?

Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014






More like UGH coin.

catspleen
Sep 12, 2003

I orphaned his children. I widowed his wife.



How does one square a butt, when butts are round?

corgski
Feb 6, 2007



SYSV Fanfic posted:

Also, the ad I'm getting for this thread is for:
https://guhtoken.org/

Wow they're not even pretending to not be a ponzi scheme now.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





ymgve posted:

"these other coins don't use as much energy" is a bad argument because if any of them became as popular target for mining as bitcoin, they would balloon in energy requirements too. i guess proof of stake is coming Any Day Now for some coins, but not sure that proof has been shown to work in a non-toy environment with real amounts of money on the line
I bring it up in these contexts because it seems to put the lie to "I think the technology has potential" or "I like the idea of using it to evade currency controls," or whatever. If you were just using it as a way to move money around in some form you could use dogecoin or whatever. They instead use the creakiest, shittiest, most wasteful one, because the motivation isn't "a new financial technology," it's "I want to talk up my pollution pogs, either so I can cash them out or just for the profound psychological pleasure of owning the libs."

Chadzok
Apr 25, 2002



corgski posted:

Wow they're not even pretending to not be a ponzi scheme now.

safemoon and all its many copies are also unabashedly pyramid shaped. it's disgusting how many clearly labelled scams are operated under the much larger scam of crypto in general. it's an incoherent quagmire that can only be effectively dealt with by a nuke from regulatory orbit.

Twelve by Pies
May 4, 2012

Again a very likpatous story


jokes posted:

I'm still sitting here thinking it's funny that someone thinks that wasting energy and resources is a sufficient basis of value.

Like, you're cooking and start a fire that burns down the block and someone comes up and says "poo poo! that's a huge fire! Gotta be about 50,000 BTUs huh? Well, here's 50,000 BTU coins!" and they e-mail you a .gif that says "50,000" and you think "wow, this is better than dollars"

e: "gently caress man, you just spent $10,000 renting 500 acres of wasteland in the middle of the desert? Well, that's tied to the real world and thus carries value-- here's some coins!"

Forest fires destroy millions of acres of nature, but they also consume lots of energy and are therefore valuable, so it's impossible to say if forest fires are good or bad.

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


Out here, everything hurts.




WillPac posted:

I lurk this thread frequently to understand the anti-Bitcoin perspective, and I have to say I was surprised to see Nic Carter's writing referenced.

Did you read the whole article? Nic is a well-known Bitcoin advocate and ironically the article is a good read for the open-minded skeptic.

Yeah, that's part of why I chose that article. Even their advocates admit the blockchain burns roughly 1 medium sized first world country worth of power.

Somfin
Oct 25, 2010




Nap Ghost

Liquid Communism posted:

Yeah, that's part of why I chose that article. Even their advocates admit the blockchain burns roughly 1 medium sized first world country worth of power.

And before coin freaks say but but but what if it's green power, imagine if the renewable energy supply didn't need to support your stupid, worthless fake money

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


Out here, everything hurts.




WillPac posted:

USDT is very scary as it doesn't seem to be properly backed. I've personally never used it.

If you've touched any crypto that's traded on exhcanges at all, you've touched tether. It's the 'stable' hyperinflating fun money that's used to push all the other coins' prices, since despite literally printing billions of USDT, they still all claim to believe it's 1:1 with USD.

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Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

NUKE THEIR ASS
TAKE THEIR GAS


Slippery Tilde

punishedkissinger posted:

even the most psychotic capitalists understand that waste is not value lmao
I don't think the Koch brothers' track record supports that

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